Pornomancers - How do they work?, Or - Why do Cyberbreasts cost Essence? Options

[PresentPresence]

Man, surged Dryad? That's like, redoodoodiculous. And great. So, take away the need to seduce and command, and you still have an incredible speaker, albeit clumsy as a five legged fish and just as fragile, who can barely open a heavy door, walks into poles in the middle of her path because she doesn't react in time to move out of the way, and not to mention can't resist a good chocolate or drug, and just can't figure out how triangles work. And did I mention that practically everyone in the neighborhood knows who she is, where to find her, and how to exploit all of those weaknesses? Time to blast some Goblin Rock in your headphones to avoid the siren's song and collect your runner's bounty!

[toturi]

And did I mention that practically everyone in the neighborhood knows who she is, where to find her, and how to exploit all of those weaknesses?

This does not necessarily hold true.

[Glyph]

@Medicineman:
Remember, that's an optional rule. The ironic thing is that most faces won't even need to worry about it - the pornomancer itself is only a dice pool exercise. Really, they "fixed" the wrong problem - instead of reducing a dice pool that an actual character intended for play would never have, they should have fixed the cheese that is empathy software, and defined the limits of social skills a bit more, so that less GMs treat them like they are mind control.

@PresentPresence:
You would be surprised how viable a hyper-specialist can be. Not every high dice pool equates to a one-trick pony with a lot of glaring weaknesses.

[PresentPresence]

I suppose I did exaggerate a bit, but I agree with what Mongoose and Glyph hinted at, that such an obvious character in a community (A SURGEd Dryad who smells like angel farts and can sing like 'em too? It would be kinda hard to hide out...) might not be a viable choice for a face. A face is not just meant to be a speaker, but a deceiver, as is seen in the A-Team's iconic career namesake. So giving such a character the archetype of "Face" seems inappropriate. I bet the security guard at the high-security lossa money facility would have heard of the sexy SURGEd Dryad working with him, no matter how much she tried to convince him that she was "new" or tried to seduce him. Well, maybe he would let her seduce him, but he would be reporting her "incapacitating" him the morning after.

[toturi]

So giving such a character the archetype of "Face" seems inappropriate. I bet the security guard at the high-security lossa money facility would have heard of the sexy SURGEd Dryad working with him, no matter how much she tried to convince him that she was "new" or tried to seduce him. Well, maybe he would let her seduce him, but he would be reporting her "incapacitating" him the morning after.

But she does not look anything like her.

[PresentPresence]

But she does not look anything like her.

You've lost me. Are you saying she was disguised? That's the Stealth group, which was not covered under the optimization Max and Makki suggested, which is what I was commenting on.

[toturi]

You've lost me. Are you saying she was disguised? That's the Stealth group, which was not covered under the optimization Max and Makki suggested, which is what I was commenting on.

Julia Roberts as Tess Ocean as Julia Roberts. It was a con job.

[Kagetenshi]

I suppose I did exaggerate a bit, but I agree with what Mongoose and Glyph hinted at, that such an obvious character in a community (A SURGEd Dryad who smells like angel farts and can sing like 'em too? It would be kinda hard to hide out...) might not be a viable choice for a face. A face is not just meant to be a speaker, but a deceiver, as is seen in the A-Team's iconic career namesake. So giving such a character the archetype of "Face" seems inappropriate. I bet the security guard at the high-security lossa money facility would have heard of the sexy SURGEd Dryad working with him, no matter how much she tried to convince him that she was "new" or tried to seduce him. Well, maybe he would let her seduce him, but he would be reporting her "incapacitating" him the morning after.

Have you ever dealt with someone who was really convincing? All that tends to go out the window once the Face shows up.

~J

[Glyph]

Yeah, the pornomancer isn't a full-bore face. She can negotiate the pay for her team, and smooth-talk her way past things like gangers and checkpoints. She is decent, if not great, at acquiring or fencing gear, which depends on negotiation rather than con. She is essentially some kind of entertainer - stripper, lounge singer, or what have you - who is a potential face. To fully grow into that role, she would need to increase her non-con skills, or at least acquire the missing ones such as leadership and intimidation. She would need a lot more contacts, higher perception, and some good linguisofts. And a modicum of stealth skills, although blending in will always be a problem for her.

However, while suboptimal, she is still a playable character. At least, the more modest version that doesn't have some of the more problematic social bonuses (global fame, etc.).

[Kagetenshi]

Con-based skills with insane modifiers are a complete replacement for Intimidation. They may have shoved some more stuff in under Leadership in SR4, but unless that's the case it seems entirely orthogonal to Face work. Lack of contacts is valid, but that's only one aspect of Facing and the aspects the build does cover support rapid contact acquisition.

Perception could be a problem if it's even a third as important as Int is.

~J

[toturi]

However, while suboptimal, she is still a playable character. At least, the more modest version that doesn't have some of the more problematic social bonuses (global fame, etc.).

Well, at least Julia Roberts doesn't look like Julia Roberts (global fame). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cain]

I suppose I did exaggerate a bit, but I agree with what Mongoose and Glyph hinted at, that such an obvious character in a community (A SURGEd Dryad who smells like angel farts and can sing like 'em too? It would be kinda hard to hide out...) might not be a viable choice for a face. A face is not just meant to be a speaker, but a deceiver, as is seen in the A-Team's iconic career namesake. So giving such a character the archetype of "Face" seems inappropriate. I bet the security guard at the high-security lossa money facility would have heard of the sexy SURGEd Dryad working with him, no matter how much she tried to convince him that she was "new" or tried to seduce him. Well, maybe he would let her seduce him, but he would be reporting her "incapacitating" him the morning after.

You miss the point. The question isn't rather or not a pornomancer is the ultimate face. The question is rather or not they're viable player characters, which they are. You've got to compensate for some things, but there's no reason a hyperspecialised character has to have huge glaring weaknesses. Really, it's no different than the min/maxing you have to do on less powerful characters.

[hobgoblin]

@Medicineman:
Remember, that's an optional rule. The ironic thing is that most faces won't even need to worry about it - the pornomancer itself is only a dice pool exercise. Really, they "fixed" the wrong problem - instead of reducing a dice pool that an actual character intended for play would never have, they should have fixed the cheese that is empathy software, and defined the limits of social skills a bit more, so that less GMs treat them like they are mind control.

The main issue, and that is one that shows up in many games, is that the rules are linear while the real world is one of diminishing returns.

so for instance the empathy software price should not be a set sum times the rating, but perhaps instead have the cost of each rating level be the cost of the level before, squared.

but that is more cumbersome to calculate at the table, so they go for rules that are linear for ease of play.

[StealthSigma]

The pornomancer works by dying, preferably in the most brutal fashion possible, and then is never talked of again. Any player at the table that tries to make a new pornomancer is the slapped in the back of the head for having a stupid moment.

[Cain]

The pornomancer works by dying, preferably in the most brutal fashion possible, and then is never talked of again. Any player at the table that tries to make a new pornomancer is the slapped in the back of the head for having a stupid moment.

And do you do this to every hyper-specialized character? Troll tanks, speed sammies, cocooned riggers? Anyone with a dice pool of 20+?

[sabs]

Whats wrong with cocooned riggers?

[Zyerne]

Or speed sammies?

[Yerameyahu]

Obviously, the problem with 'cocooned riggers' is the lack of alliteration. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Cocooned controllers? Wrapped riggers?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Obviously, the problem with 'cocooned riggers' is the lack of alliteration. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Cocooned controllers? Wrapped riggers?

Heheheh... Just Awesome...

[The Grue Master]

The thing about characters who are singular in their purpose is that they generally require an entire team of people to compensate for their weaknesses. This character is the sort you will find running endless errands for the Huckleberry Cat she 'adopted' or being 'petted' to death by Lennie the Mentally Handicapped Troll from Oklahoma. In short, their own strengths do not compensate for their weakness thus the team is required to support them.

[Christian Lafay]

Which is why you end up with movie style teams. Five or so very specialized characters who can generally cover the entire spectrum. Not everyone can be Micheal Weston, sadly. Hehe

[PresentPresence]

After reading, I think I am beginning to agree that specialization is good. Who wants a team of runners who can all speak, hack, fight, shoot, cast spells, rig drones, and infiltrate (and everything else that people have to do) decently?I'd rather have a guy who can hack well, but isn't very stealthy, a guy who can cast spells well, but can't rig drones, and a guy who can kick ass up close, but is awkward in social settings. Everyone doesn't have to do the same thing at once. (Man that sentence sounded weird when I typed it. Rollin' Edge on grammar.)
Bottom line? I think I'll make a SURGEd Dryad, but I know now that she doesn't have to be crippled. I don't have to be so constricted that I spend loads of extra BP to give her that few extra dice; I can use that to give her skills that help with what she is specialized in. 25 BP for maxed Charisma? How about Disguise 3 and Pilot Ground Vehicle 3 with a Thundercloud Contrail for the same price? That's just an example, but I hope you guys get what I mean.

[Karoline]

After reading, I think I am beginning to agree that specialization is good. Who wants a team of runners who can all speak, hack, fight, shoot, cast spells, rig drones, and infiltrate (and everything else that people have to do) decently?I'd rather have a guy who can hack well, but isn't very stealthy, a guy who can cast spells well, but can't rig drones, and a guy who can kick ass up close, but is awkward in social settings. Everyone doesn't have to do the same thing at once. (Man that sentence sounded weird when I typed it. Rollin' Edge on grammar.)
Bottom line? I think I'll make a SURGEd Dryad, but I know now that she doesn't have to be crippled. I don't have to be so constricted that I spend loads of extra BP to give her that few extra dice; I can use that to give her skills that help with what she is specialized in. 25 BP for maxed Charisma? How about Disguise 3 and Pilot Ground Vehicle 3 with a Thundercloud Contrail for the same price? That's just an example, but I hope you guys get what I mean.

This reminds me of an excellent example in an old DnD book, 'the complete guide to thieves' (or something like that). It put forth a very simple idea: You want to break into a mansion through a second story window, incapacitate a guard or two, and break into a safe to steal the valuables. Now, in theory a single thief could do all of this on her own, but would have to be so exceedingly skilled, that the job might not even be worth her while. A group of far less skilled, but more specialized thieves however could manage it. One climbs up to the window and drops a rope. Another sneaks close to the guards and KOs them. And a third is able to pick the safe. None could have done it alone, and even split three ways, it is more than they could manage working alone.

[Glyph]

That's my own personal PC design philosophy - be really good at what you do, but be able to function outside of your specialty. Two good questions to ask for a character are "Can this character fill a role on a shadowrunning team?" and "Could this character have survived on his own before joining a shadowrunning team?"

[Cain]

The thing about characters who are singular in their purpose is that they generally require an entire team of people to compensate for their weaknesses. This character is the sort you will find running endless errands for the Huckleberry Cat she 'adopted' or being 'petted' to death by Lennie the Mentally Handicapped Troll from Oklahoma. In short, their own strengths do not compensate for their weakness thus the team is required to support them.

The team is required to support everyone, in a good team of runners. If you're able to outshoot the sammie, outhack the decker, outdrive the rigger, and outtalk the face, then what the hell do you need a team for? Poleplaying games have supported the need for team play from the very beginning. A hyper-specialist, properly made, has no weaknesses that are any more significant than anyone else of his archetype.