Archetypes, Replacements for the SR4A Sample Characters Options

[UmaroVI]

The major problem is you can't build a pure adept who would turn down 'ware for anything other than RP reasons, which is very sad.

[Neurosis]

Ah. Disappointing. So much so that you won't even give a go at it?

EDIT: Derf derf derf. I see you did have a go at it.

(My adept is not bad by any means; I don't think he'd embarrass himself in a Missions type environment. But he's not *optimized*. I simply did not realize at the time I made him, 2 or 3 years ago, that 'ware was actually GOOD for Adepts. I was still very much in the SR3 'WARE IS BAD FOR AWAKENED' paradigm.)

SECOND EDIT:

Since you are still willing to humor me.

Let me hock up a quick outline:

Magic 6, powers Improved Reflexes 2 (2.5), Imp. Ability Blades 3 (1.5), Quick Draw (.5), Combat Sense 1 (.5), Improved Ability (Agility) (.75), Power Throw 1 (.25)

Body 5, Agility 5(6), Reaction 5 (7), Strength 1, Charisma 1, Intuition 5, Logic 1, Willpower 5, Magic 6, Edge 6 (305 bp)
Qualities Adept 5, Aptitude (Weapon) 10, Restricted Gear 5, 35 points of negative qualities of your choice (-15 bps back)
Skills:
34 Weapon 7, spec Specific Weapon (unless Exotic)
16 Throwing 4
Gear:
10 Force 5 Weapon Focus (chosen weapon)
Throwing Weapons: Nets, Molotov Cocktails, Boomerangs (yes, really. Nets are generally the most useful since you can use those with Quick Draw to immobilize 2 people per pass, the idea is to net people and then close in and kamurder them. Molotov Cocktails do 5P vs. half impact which is nifty. Boomerangs have the best range of any thrown weapon.

This leaves 50 for other gear and more skills; you can probably fit in the bare basics on that.

The core problem this character has is severe one-trick-ponyism. Probably the best version of this character is the monofilament whip user; you end up with 18 dice, reach 2, and an 8P/-4 attack. Unfortunately, that just isn't very impressive - you can do much, much better as an Augmented gun user without specializing nearly as hard.

Of course, this is all talking about under the restrictions of the Archetypes - no Ways, no Martial Arts, and very conservative assumptions about how the rules work. It might be more interesting to see how things work in a more relaxed environment, more similar to the campaign you played your PC in. Do you allow Ways? I assume you allow martial arts. What is your campaign's answer to Critical Strike with unarmed combat vs. Unarmed Combat (ie, do those adept powers work with stuff like Hardliner Gloves)?

I actually failed to know that Martial Arts isn't allowed at Missions. That {REDACTED}. I mean that makes me sad. I'd never ever play my Adept at Missions, then. Oh well.

In any case, let's go with the following ADDITIONAL LIMITATIONS assuming you're still willing to humor me. I mean in many ways I'm building to a character concept here (the character should be strong, the character should not be 'full retard' etcetera which I know is not building toward power but it doesn't have to be the ANTITHESIS of building a competent character).

* No monofilament whip. (The character in particular I'm talking about very specifically used a KNIFE, not a Sword, but I won't be THAT restrictive. Blades, Clubs, and Unarmed are all fine.)
* Strength should be decently high.
* I would *like it* if mental stats were not so suck, but that's something I'm willing to sacrifice. However, the character has to be able to at least Intimidate.
* No nets, molotovs, or boomerangs, please.
* Can live with 2IP if necessary. Wouldn't be happy about it, but can choke it down. (Or do all of your characters have a floor of 3 Meatspace IPs? I haven't looked at them all yet.)
* Perhaps try focusing on Critical Strike/Killing Hands rather than Weapon Focus?
* Character should NOT TOTALLY SUCK AT EVERY OTHER PART OF SHADOWRUN. I mean he should have basic capabilities like Stealth, Athletics, Perception.

Finally, rather than introducing additional complications, let me answer your actual questions:

Let's assume:
1) Martial arts yes.
2) WotA no.
3) Hardliner gloves and critical strike are incompatible with each other.

[Hida Tsuzua]

I am noticing that you hardcap a lot, which I tend to avoid doing for PCs because I just find it to be very inefficient in terms of points.

I actually only see two PCs, the Transhuman Mystic and the Technoshaman, that hardcap. A few like the Ghost do use Genetic Optimization (X) to raise the cap. Many of the Cyberarms of Awesome users do hardcap their cyberlimb's attributes when possible. However, that's at no additional costs so it's cool.

[Neurosis]

My mistake, 'a lot' was not accurate. (I was looking at the Adept outline and its Magic specifically.)

[UmaroVI]

Hardcapping is nearly never worth it; if you're going for a hyperspecialist then you might want to hardcap, and technomancers always want to hardcap resonance.

[UmaroVI]

The rule I generally use is 2 meatspace IPs is the cutoff for competence, 3 is the goal, 4 is generally overkill. The Bad Enough Trog has 2 meatspace IPs, the technoshaman has 1.

Martial Arts actually is enough of a gamechanger to make melee fly. I'll see what I can cook up for that.

[Saint Hallow]

I will admit I miss some of the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd edition archetypes and sample characters. The artwork for them was fun. I always laughed at the picture of the Street Mage. Looked like an old David Copperfield in a suit with bad goth astrology symbols all over him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Be nice to see the return of the Amerindian tribesman, the Adept (non-gun shooter, but martial artist), the Dwarf Mercenary, & the Elven Decker.

[Neurosis]

I like how the Elven Decker honestly might as well have been called 'The David Bowie'.

Man I love that old artwork. : )

[PeteThe1]

No mention or love for the Ork Mercenary? Equipment: "A big nasty sword he calls a knife."

[UmaroVI]

A few of the archetypes actually were based on old sample characters that got "lost" between editions. The Spook is supposed to be an alternate version of the Former Company Man, for example.

[UmaroVI]

Ah. Disappointing. So much so that you won't even give a go at it?

EDIT: Derf derf derf. I see you did have a go at it.

(My adept is not bad by any means; I don't think he'd embarrass himself in a Missions type environment. But he's not *optimized*. I simply did not realize at the time I made him, 2 or 3 years ago, that 'ware was actually GOOD for Adepts. I was still very much in the SR3 'WARE IS BAD FOR AWAKENED' paradigm.)

SECOND EDIT:

Since you are still willing to humor me.



I actually failed to know that Martial Arts isn't allowed at Missions. That {REDACTED}. I mean that makes me sad. I'd never ever play my Adept at Missions, then. Oh well.

In any case, let's go with the following ADDITIONAL LIMITATIONS assuming you're still willing to humor me. I mean in many ways I'm building to a character concept here (the character should be strong, the character should not be 'full retard' etcetera which I know is not building toward power but it doesn't have to be the ANTITHESIS of building a competent character).

* No monofilament whip. (The character in particular I'm talking about very specifically used a KNIFE, not a Sword, but I won't be THAT restrictive. Blades, Clubs, and Unarmed are all fine.)
* Strength should be decently high.
* I would *like it* if mental stats were not so suck, but that's something I'm willing to sacrifice. However, the character has to be able to at least Intimidate.
* No nets, molotovs, or boomerangs, please.
* Can live with 2IP if necessary. Wouldn't be happy about it, but can choke it down. (Or do all of your characters have a floor of 3 Meatspace IPs? I haven't looked at them all yet.)
* Perhaps try focusing on Critical Strike/Killing Hands rather than Weapon Focus?
* Character should NOT TOTALLY SUCK AT EVERY OTHER PART OF SHADOWRUN. I mean he should have basic capabilities like Stealth, Athletics, Perception.

Finally, rather than introducing additional complications, let me answer your actual questions:

Let's assume:
1) Martial arts yes.
2) WotA no.
3) Hardliner gloves and critical strike are incompatible with each other.

Pugilist
This character is not an Archetype (because he relies on Martial Arts to work), but is I think a competent character. The major problem he has is glass cannon-ism, but that's more "not enough Attribute points to have more than 3 body" rather than "inherent problem with the character" and can be fixed up some with Karma.

I should note that this guy is deeply sad he was not born an ork, but he at least has a 6 edge so it's more "sheds a manly tear" than "cries himself to sleep every night." I'd much rather be an ork and be able to afford more body and willpower, though. Like all pure adepts he would be better off with 'ware.

That said I think he is fine. He can kung-fu fight crazy melee paracritters or spirits to death - anyone who tries to beat him in a melee combat fight is going to lose, horribly, as he uses Two-Weapon Style and Riposte to block all their attacks and then punch them in the face repeatedly. Gun users can flatten him if they go first or catch him at range, but if he gets into melee and can go first he can flatten them right back by chaining attacks with Finishing Blow. Also of note is his ability to reliably punch tanks in half by using Vicious Blow and calling shots for extra DV to do 12P vs. half impact electrical attacks with 18 dice to hit.

A note on his powers: Counterstrike would make him somewhat better at the TWS-Riposte style against melee people. However, he can't get it without losing something of more general use, and he's already really, really good at beating up anyone who tries to melee him, so I didn't take it. It would be a nice thing for him to get with more power points, although probably not a top priority; he does eventually run out of better stuff, though.

[Seerow]

Love the Compulsion: Don't have Bioware no matter how much it would help you. That flaw is definitely worth more than 5 points.


As an aside given just enough karma post gen for a single initiation, do you think a mystic adept would be worth it? Initiate for Channeling, and have some skill put into summoning/binding. You enter combat with a force 3 or 4 spirit, boosting your str/agi/bod to acceptable levels, and getting you ITNW, helping a lot with that glass cannon-ness and low offensive stats that comes from no ware. You can also pick up a few ranks of counterspelling for some extra magic resist.

[UmaroVI]

You can create an extremely brutal unarmed combatant as a Channeler. The main drawback of that character is that you wind up being very dependant on channeling, which is very unsubtle. You don't want to be a Mystic Adept, though. Possession overwrites your magic with the spirit's magic, so you lose your adept powers while possessed. You actually just want to be a cybered mage (sticking to "physical" ware so the spirit can use it) - you get to use the spirit's magic score rather than yours.

If your GM rules that Shapechange alters your augmented ability maxima, you can also do variants of "turn into a lion, possession, rawr" but that is even less subtle.

The basic idea is to stack up bonuses to your melee damage. Without martial arts, you can do stuff like use a cyberspur or foot anchor (STR/2)+3, and then use a spirit with Elemental Aura for another +4 and it now goes against half impact. The spirit also boosts your strength so you can easily be doing 13P or so without trying too hard. Throw in martial arts and things really get out of control. A quick outline of a sample melee Channeler:

Troll (40 bp)
Magician (15) [any Intuition possession tradition with Air]
Martial Arts (+2 Unarmed DV) (10)
Mentor Spirit (Raven) (5)
Restricted Gear (5)
Whatever you want for negatives (-35)
Body 5, Agility 1, Reaction 3, Strength 9, Charisma 1, Intuition 4, Logic 3, Willpower 5, Edge 2, Magic 5 (before essence loss) (200 bp)
Skills: Spellcasting (Manipulation) 6( 8 ), Summoning (Air) 4(6), Counterspelling 4 (60 bp)
Manuevers: Two-Weapon Style, Offhand Training (unarmed), Finishing Blow, Riposte (8 bp)
Gear: Trauma Damper (.2), Platelet Factories (.2), Retractable Spur Force 4 Weapon Focus (.3), cyber lower arm (offhand) with Armor 3 and Shock Hand (.45), two force 2 sustaining foci (about 36 bp of gear)
Spells: Stunbolt, Increase Reflexes, Combat Sense (9 bp)
Foci Bonding: 10 bp

This leaves you 34 points to round things out with some non-kamurder-related skills and spells (keeping in mind that many skills like Perception and Assensing come for free with Channeling). You can easily get pretty significant usefulness aside from brutal murder out of some "do useful non-violent things" spells. I would probably grab Infiltration since spirits do not get that.

How it works is that you hock up a force 6 Air spirit with Elemental Aura to possess you. You have 12 dice to call it versus its 6 to resist so you will generally get it, and you ask it to sustain Concealment and Movement on you. The Trauma Damper and Platelet Factories stop you from taking too much damage from summoning drain, and once you are possessed you are mostly going to be taking stun anyways so 1P or so doesn't matter much. Then you run around cyberspurring people to death with 17 dice and 1 reach to hit, and doing 17P vs half impact. Meanwhile you also have quite good defenses and are fast like whoa. You sustain Increase Reflexes and Combat Sense for initiative of 17/4 ip and 12 (18 in melee) defense pool. You can also Stunbolt people quite respectably if they refuse to get close enough for you to cyberspur. Without a spirit you are rather meh at fighting, but not hopeless; you just rely on spellcasting rather than melee and can do a decent job at it.

[UmaroVI]

Quote != edit

[Seerow]

I get that shapechanging into a lion is pretty unsubtle... but what are the rules for shapechanging into a troll or other metahuman with above average str and body? The spell specifies critter, so I'm guessing it's a no-go, but I don't get why an animal would be fine and a humanoid body would be a no. Cause then you could save yourself 40 bp on troll and instead spend 5 bp on that spell

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I get that shapechanging into a lion is pretty unsubtle... but what are the rules for shapechanging into a troll or other metahuman with above average str and body? The spell specifies critter, so I'm guessing it's a no-go, but I don't get why an animal would be fine and a humanoid body would be a no. Cause then you could save yourself 40 bp on troll and instead spend 5 bp on that spell

It Requires a Custom spell to take a metahuman form.
And if it is modeled off of Criutter Form (The ones I have are), then you start at average stats, and then add hits to Physicals.
We only allow distribution of hits (The limit of the custom spell) to Physicals, rather than applying them to all physicals. *Shrug*

[UmaroVI]

Per the FAQ, you can't turn into a metahuman because they are "paracritters" but you CAN turn into a human. This allow for the rather stupid option of being a human who shapechanges into a human to fight, because you add net hits to your stats; you could do something like be a 1 body human with shit physical stats who shapechanges into a human, with 3 hits to have 6 in all stats, then gets a force 3 spirit to possess you and bring them up to 9. I am not the biggest fan of this option, personally; I'm kind of hesistant to make a character who can't at least handle "not die" without spells active.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Love the Compulsion: Don't have Bioware no matter how much it would help you. That flaw is definitely worth more than 5 points.


As an aside given just enough karma post gen for a single initiation, do you think a mystic adept would be worth it? Initiate for Channeling, and have some skill put into summoning/binding. You enter combat with a force 3 or 4 spirit, boosting your str/agi/bod to acceptable levels, and getting you ITNW, helping a lot with that glass cannon-ness and low offensive stats that comes from no ware. You can also pick up a few ranks of counterspelling for some extra magic resist.

Even before initiation, 1 point in magic can get you sustaining focuses helping the one area adepts really have a cost problem stat boosts and initiative boosts.

[UmaroVI]

The Transhuman Mystic is a similar idea, although he's not using Possession and focuses on ranged rather than melee combat.

[Neurosis]

Pugilist
This character is not an Archetype (because he relies on Martial Arts to work), but is I think a competent character. The major problem he has is glass cannon-ism, but that's more "not enough Attribute points to have more than 3 body" rather than "inherent problem with the character" and can be fixed up some with Karma.

I should note that this guy is deeply sad he was not born an ork, but he at least has a 6 edge so it's more "sheds a manly tear" than "cries himself to sleep every night." I'd much rather be an ork and be able to afford more body and willpower, though. Like all pure adepts he would be better off with 'ware.

That said I think he is fine. He can kung-fu fight crazy melee paracritters or spirits to death - anyone who tries to beat him in a melee combat fight is going to lose, horribly, as he uses Two-Weapon Style and Riposte to block all their attacks and then punch them in the face repeatedly. Gun users can flatten him if they go first or catch him at range, but if he gets into melee and can go first he can flatten them right back by chaining attacks with Finishing Blow. Also of note is his ability to reliably punch tanks in half by using Vicious Blow and calling shots for extra DV to do 12P vs. half impact electrical attacks with 18 dice to hit.

A note on his powers: Counterstrike would make him somewhat better at the TWS-Riposte style against melee people. However, he can't get it without losing something of more general use, and he's already really, really good at beating up anyone who tries to melee him, so I didn't take it. It would be a nice thing for him to get with more power points, although probably not a top priority; he does eventually run out of better stuff, though.

Compulsion: Don't get bioware, no matter how much it would help you. I love the Ruthenium overcoat, too, man that's badass. Especially because if he winds up in a situation where he wants to melee duel someone he can dramatically throw it off.

Umaro, you're alllllllright. : )

This completely fails to be the concept I'm looking for, of course, but I already have a build of that concept so this was a very very fun read and thanks for taking the time to do it. (Maybe I'll send you the actual character that prompted all of this (via PM, most likely) and you can tell me how bad he sucks. : )

[Werewindlefr]

I have a question about the super-boosted cyberlimb issue: are we sure that customized cyberlimbs don't require a cybertorso for large cyberlimbs augmentations, like generic cyberlimbs do? The rules aren't very clear about this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have a question about the super-boosted cyberlimb issue: are we sure that customized cyberlimbs don't require a cybertorso for large cyberlimbs augmentations, like generic cyberlimbs do? The rules aren't very clear about this.

Well... Here is a Quote.

In all other stats customized cyberlimbs are identical to standard cyberlimbs (ie. Capacity limits, etc).

So, to exceed your natural Maximum (Since Custom Cyberlimbs allow you to match to Natural Maximum), and move into the Augmented Maximums of Exceptional Stats, you must also have a Cybertorso, as that is the rules for Standard Cyberlimbs (anything rated above the Normal Range of 3), which Custom Cyberlimbs follow, once Enhancements are added (as opposed to customization). In other words, Once you add Cyberlimb Enhancements, you need a Torso, or the enhancements will tear you apart. So, for any limb that is Standard and has rating above 3, or Cusotm Limbs wwith Ratings over your Naturela Racial MAximum, you MUST have a Cyber Torso to reinforce the frame.

[UmaroVI]

The rules are actually pretty clear about that one, there's just some poor choice of terminology. Cyberlimb customization is completely different and in no way related to cyberlimb enhancements. If you check the example on 343 of SR4A that makes it clear: Carlos has 5 points of body customization on his arm, but if you finish the example, he does not have a cybertorso - which stops him from getting big enhancements.

Tymaeus, that's not quite right. You can't customize over your natural maximum, period, no matter whether you have a cyber torso or not. You can't have Enhancements over rating 3 without a cybertorso - which is completely independent of your natural maximum and is a separate thing. Of course, your augmented maximum caps to the total no matter what.

For example, a troll without a cybertorso gets a cyberarm. It starts at STR 3, and he can add Strength customization up to 10 for +1 avail. and +1500Y per point. He can't go over 10, even if he did get a cybertorso.

After that, he can also slot Strength enhancement - but only up to 3. Each point takes up Capacity. So in this case, if the troll goes all-out, the most Strength he can get is 13 - customized to 10, then Enhance for +3.

Check the example I referred to (343 SR4A); it probably helps clear things up.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The rules are actually pretty clear about that one, there's just some poor choice of terminology. Cyberlimb customization is completely different and in no way related to cyberlimb enhancements. If you check the example on 343 of SR4A that makes it clear: Carlos has 5 points of body customization on his arm, but if you finish the example, he does not have a cybertorso - which stops him from getting big enhancements.

Tymaeus, that's not quite right. You can't customize over your natural maximum, period, no matter whether you have a cyber torso or not. You can't have Enhancements over rating 3 without a cybertorso - which is completely independent of your natural maximum and is a separate thing. Of course, your augmented maximum caps to the total no matter what.

For example, a troll without a cybertorso gets a cyberarm. It starts at STR 3, and he can add Strength customization up to 10 for +1 avail. and +1500Y per point. He can't go over 10, even if he did get a cybertorso.

After that, he can also slot Strength enhancement - but only up to 3. Each point takes up Capacity. So in this case, if the troll goes all-out, the most Strength he can get is 13 - customized to 10, then Enhance for +3.

Check the example I referred to (343 SR4A); it probably helps clear things up.

Which was the end goal of my point, even if it did not come out that way. Customization to natural Maximums. Enhancements to your Augmented Maximums. You need a Torso for Enhancements. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I read the rules in that can't have any limb Enhancement above the normal rating of 3 (which is standard for Limbs) without taking a Torso. I will check out the Example again.

[UmaroVI]

Ah, that's the confusion. You can't have an Enhancement with an Enhancement Rating over 3; it just checks what the enhancement rating is, not what the score is. It's also worth noting that Armor is an enhancement, so without a cybertorso you can't get Armor 4 either.