Run Payout, Extracted from Edition Discussion Options

[Shev]

Selling a car for scrap typically involves a scrapyard or junkyard, which is itself a legal entity.

And like any other legal entity, I'm sure you can find an illegal version of said entity. I have no doubt there are off-the-grid scrapyards in the Barren where you can take old junk cars that aren't worth much in terms of parts.

[Cain]

And like any other legal entity, I'm sure you can find an illegal version of said entity. I have no doubt there are off-the-grid scrapyards in the Barren where you can take old junk cars that aren't worth much in terms of parts.

You don't even need to go that far.

For those not familiar with this city, that's not really that far away from the main drag. That area is right next to a sleepy university, so even though that ares is industrial, it's still pretty quiet. It also shows how one kind of illegal chop shop can function, right under the nose of law enforcement, for years.

[ShadowDragon8685]

You bring up some good points JesterZero, and thinking them through was a fun exercise. ShadowDragon touched on the price issue, so I'll take a look at the rest.

Both realistically (Seattle is perfectly placed to move hot cars into other sovereign territories, sometimes by simply turning on the car and putting rubber to road,) and, I think more importantly in this context, because the game sets a value of 30% for fenced hot goods.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier, namely that not just any Jack can jack a car. The only ones who probably do it with any regularity are street gangs, who rely less on not being traced and more on pure anarchy in certain parts of Seattle. Runners are professionals, professionals who normally wouldn't bother with such small change as you said. The whole point of the carjack thought experiment is to serve as a guide to GMs on how to price their run payouts: if your runner can make as much or more money by doing something so small-time and beneath them, that's a sign you're not paying enough.

mmu1 said it years ago, as in my sig. That's exactly the point of this. Carjacking should, at most, be a side gig for a Running team, or a way to make ends meet in a lean month when they only got two runs, botched one and the Rigger lost a drone in the other.

That sounds about right. Thrill gangs, or dumb kids seeing a running car and taking it for a spin. And the only times my group has actually stolen a car was when we needed a quick ride that couldn't be traced to a fake ID. The non-pros don't have the skills and conctact to sell a car even if they do get their hands on one, the pros have more use for a temporary getaway than bothering with a chopshop.

Though, if you have stolen a car for a getaway to be untracable, and your route with it takes you into the Barrens, you might as well hock it to a chop shop. Keeping it and cleaning it for yourself is probably more trouble than it's worth, unless it's something expensive and/or specialized you forsee a reason to own in the future, like a semi-tractor or an Ares Roadmaster.

Depending on the chopshop contact and the group, I imagine the runners would be able to find out what cars were selling for the highest price vs. what's needed in bulk and determine what cars to steal from there. Also, I can't imagine any of the shops you're taking it to in SR would ask for a title. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You can always pay your Fixer a pittance to look that up, if you can't be assed to do the legwork yourself. Though you're probably gonna get the most bang for your buck by going after high-end SUVs, in terms of ubiquity (one RV going missing won't raise heads, but if you go after them regularly, someone's gonna start snooping,) ease of hack (System rating 2, folks!) and price, 25K, versus about 10K for the average econobox. Even if the econoboxes are currently going novahot on the black market, they'd have to be fencing at 3/4ths retail to match what you get at 30% of an SUV.

And frankly, if someone's paying 3/4ths retail for boosted econoboxes, you need to start doing legwork, because that shit is highly abnormal and it probably means that someone's desperate to find one specific econobox, and can't think of a better way to find it than to pay every carjacker, Shadowrunner, and Joe Q. Public who wants 7,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) more than he wants his car, to haul in every econobox he can get. (Kind of like the Six Napoleons, heh!)

I think the TL;DR of this whole thread is "Can the PCs make money off of stealing and selling cars? Absolutely. Should they forced into doing so because it pays better than the actual black ops shadow work they assembled to do in the first place? Absolutely not."

I want to quote this so bad, but Dumpshock has a signature limit and I already have the mmu1 quote to the same effect.

Although I should point out that it's not just a matter of paying better, it's a matter of risk versus reward. Even if you literally double the reward to 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) doing the On the Run adventure, you're going to wind up fighting devil rats, gangers, company men, and get embroiled in the literal middle of a brutal three-way between Vampires and Shadowrunners. I mean, it's worth doing at that price, mind you, if you're desperate for work, but you should never be desperate enough for nuyen to take a job like that (well, if you know what you're getting into, anyway,) as long as you have a Matrix asset on your team who can trivially hammer the shit out of any System rating 2 node.

Of course, there are always going to be jobs where the Johnson misleads you as regards the opposition, or where (as in On the Run,) the Johnson has no idea what he's getting your team into. But if the mission is explicitly to go and cause mayhem and risk your life, the reward should at minimum start at something that makes it actually worth your while.

(Though, again, payment in kind can go a long way. DocWagon or CrashCart might offer you a high-risk job with low reward in terms of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) but if the reward also includes a year's worth of Platinum armed medical extraction, it might be worth doing it. As long as the contract starts before the job commences.)

Not to mention that they're pointless for this discussion given that the whole assumption here is that a group of shadowrunners has a Matrix asset on their side in the first place, which makes shutting down the vehicle remotely a pointless concept given that part of the theft is the rigger or decker on the team already having spoofed that system to accept him/her as the legitimate owner.

In theory, every Shadowrun vehicle which is not a motorbike and which is equipped with GridGuide has a system where the cops can remotely order a car to pull to the side of the road, shut down its engines, and open its doors. That's going to be one of the first things your hacker disables after they give themselves Admin access, just behind the legitimate owner's passcodes. And if you somehow get enough attention that the fuzz send in a Matrix asset of their own, just burn the car's dogbrain and disconnect. It's not even worth opposing Hacking rolls, let alone Cybercombat, and they won't be able to trace it to you - and if they do, hell, your hacker's in the Barrens or next to them, isn't she? Not worth their time and energy to try and do anything.

Not that you should get any attention, because all windows should be tinted, so nobody would know if a car's empty or not, and even if it is, an empty car driving itself somewhere isn't remotely unusual in 2071.

Mostly I wanted to hit on the difference between selling a car for parts and for scrap, since that is something that might be immediately useful given that different SR characters have different types of gear and connections. Chop shops generally assume the burden of technical know-how, but in return they require some sort of connection with their customers to avoid getting busted. Successfully selling a stolen car to a junkyard actually requires more technical know-how on the part of the seller, since you need a way to make the trail go cold (e.g. fake ID) when it's discovered that the vehicle you sold was stolen.

Getting a chop shop/import exporter to take your car is the reason there's a Threshold 10, Interval 6hr Charisma + Negotiation test to fence your stolen goods.

It's also the reason for the Black Market Pipeline trait, from RC 96.

At character creation, the player chooses one of his contacts and one type of merchandise (i.e. vehicles, weapons, electronics, armor, etc.). This contact can always buy or sell that contraband on the black market at a price that benefits the character. This guarantees a 10 percent discount when the character buys the appropriate merchandise from the Black Market Contact, and confers a +3 dice pool modifier when negotiating to sell/fence appropriate goods through the Pipeline.

Personally, I think that's a little anemic. You shouldn't have to negotiate to sell to someone you already know unless you're trying to get a better deal. Fixers, being generalists, would take anything you have, no questions asked, but for less than the 30%, because he's going to have to sell it to a black market car guy. If one of your contacts is specifically a black market car guy, he should take them for the full 30% shot. If you have Black Market Pipeline (Vehicles,) then that should apply globally; you have a pipeline, your network of contacts is always going to know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody, meaning you'll always be able to find someone willing to sell to you at a 10% discount, and have the +3 dice pool modifier when attempting to fence to somebody who doesn't know you.

Anyhow, I'll stop now. The economics of crime is a particular interest of mine, so I just wanted to try to curtail a few assumptions that seemed more rooted in GTA or Hollywood than reality. If people start talking about the payouts involved in organ-legging or contract killing, I may drop back in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Do remember that Shadowrun is more rooted in GTA and Hollywood than it is in reality. After all, you can entirely dispense with the hacker if you have a Possession-tradition magician, who can summon a spirit, order it to possess a car, and drive it to a chop shop. So really, let the 30% number stand, for the sake of ease-of-play and player-friendliness.

I mean, unless you get off modifying the fencing price of stolen goods based on what they are, and your players get off on it, too. Whatever makes dice roll smoother on your table.

[PraetorGradivus]

As to stealing cars is more profitable...

The car has an owner, you have to get 24 hits on an extended hardware test to change owners.

Glitch, alerts the police.

It's not as easy as it was in the 80s.

[ShadowDragon8685]

As to stealing cars is more profitable...

The car has an owner, you have to get 24 hits on an extended hardware test to change owners.

Glitch, alerts the police.

It's not as easy as it was in the 80s.

That's the chop shop's problem, not yours.

Also, if the car is in a faraday cage at the time, it can scream its lungs out, Lone Star aren't going to be riding to the rescue.
Additionally, if the car is in the Barrens at the time, they still aren't going to be riding to the rescue.
Thirdly, it's going to be much simpler to just reformat the car's brain than to change its owner. And since the car is going to be immobilized in a faraday cage-garage, you - or rather, the chop shop guys who are doing this, because you just hocked the damn thing to them - can try again and again.

[Stahlseele]

Why do you need 24 hits to change the owner?
Don't you need much less to get admin access?

[Bogert]

Why do you need 24 hits to change the owner?
Don't you need much less to get admin access?

You need 24 hits on a Hardware test, it's not even a software/hacking thing.

My working assumption is that there's some sort of Trusted Computing type chip buried in with the other electronics, gummed up with epoxy and designed to be tamper-resistant. If you can replace the chip, changing digital "ownership" is trivial, but otherwise, you're out of luck.

EDIT: Note, designing technical systems that make car theft more difficult and less lucrative is not without precedent.

EDITx2: Additional note, I do think the run payout guidelines in the 5e book are ridiculously low.

[Shev]

That's the chop shop's problem, not yours.

Precisely, which is why you're only getting 30% street price. You're the ones with the equipment and expertise to jack the ride (and then some) and they're the ones with the equipment and expertise to clean and fence the goods.

[Sternenwind]

As to stealing cars is more profitable...

The car has an owner, you have to get 24 hits on an extended hardware test to change owners.

Glitch, alerts the police.

It's not as easy as it was in the 80s.

I would not go for this (SR5) rule … it make no sense, and relay on a system that is utterly broken. Alone the fact that you have to be online to do a hardware check for … .
No, just ignore this little passage.

[PraetorGradivus]

I would not go for this (SR5) rule … it make no sense, and relay on a system that is utterly broken. Alone the fact that you have to be online to do a hardware check for … .
No, just ignore this little passage.

Except that my GM doesn't ignore that little passage.
Besides, the owner sets the car computer to not start unless the driver has permission.
And if the car is so old it doesn't have a computer, why are you stealing it anyway?
Then you either need a wrecker to tow it or a piece of equipment (cyberdeck) more expensive than that jackrabbit to get it to start.

[Sternenwind]

In this case, go for an "I replace the software" or an "I replace the annoying hardware" check.
(like ShadowDragon8685 explained)

And for a Shadowrunner, I don’t think that transferring the ownership to one of your SINs is a smart thing to do.
Most of the time anyway.

[Cain]

And if the car is so old it doesn't have a computer, why are you stealing it anyway?

Are you kidding? With the SR5 rules on availability, classic cars and specialty vehicles are the only ones worth real money.

There are classic cars, today, that can fetch a tidy sum. For example, let's say rich uncle Dunkie passes away, and leaves you a 1964-1/2 candy-apple red Ford Mustang . Classic cars like that can vary in price, but since it was Unka Dunk, we can assume it's on the high end, which today would be about $180,000. In Shadowrun, that price would go up dramatically, so me may be talking half a million for a classic car. (And yes, cars like that still exist-- there's a reason I chose that example.)

[Sternenwind]

Payout; I have met another problem with setting and payout.

But that has more to do with the pricelist of cyberware and hardware than with Johnsons and how much they want to give you. There are roles in SR that are extreme cash friendly, like technomancer, adepts or mages. If you, as a gm, find a good payout balance that your player actual wanna run, and have an acceptable progression, some character start to accumulate a hazardous amount of ¥.
Even with a rock star mechanic.

These rich runners will most likely still run the shadows, because the player wants the karma. But with cash they often also have the means to kill your plots/missions/runs.
Hack, I myself did this, multiple times. But what can I say, character was pissed as hell, had the means and the connection. Everyone else got paid, Johnson got his stuff, most of the time anyway, and mission was completed.

[Shemhazai]

Precisely, which is why you're only getting 30% street price. You're the ones with the equipment and expertise to jack the ride (and then some) and they're the ones with the equipment and expertise to clean and fence the goods.

No, people are arguing that your reported stolen vehicle to be hacked to pieces gets 30% of the price of a brand new car.

[ShadowDragon8685]

In this case, go for an "I replace the software" or an "I replace the annoying hardware" check.
(like ShadowDragon8685 explained)

And for a Shadowrunner, I don’t think that transferring the ownership to one of your SINs is a smart thing to do.
Most of the time anyway.

Threshold 24 is pretty fucking ridiculous. Like, that's the kind of Threshold you'd see on a Cybernetics test to make a cyberzombie. Since someone mentioned that that particular shitnugget came out of SR5, it's clearly just another turd baked into the rules to screw over players. I'm just going to toss that on the pile of "Reasons I will never play SR5" and move on.

Precisely, which is why you're only getting 30% street price. You're the ones with the equipment and expertise to jack the ride (and then some) and they're the ones with the equipment and expertise to clean and fence the goods.

No, people are arguing that your reported stolen vehicle to be hacked to pieces gets 30% of the price of a brand new car.

I could care less whether the chop shop makes a threshold 24 Hardware check to sell the car as a new one, chops it up to part it out, or paints it candy-apple pink with a smiling anthro dragoness dakikamura on the roof and sells it to a horny western dragon with a car-fucking fetish, as long as they pay me my 30% and let me be on my way.

[Sternenwind]

GM: 4k pp and that is Johnsons last offer.
T: People say I am not good with numbers, and call me dumb but we are in a group of five. 4k multiplied by 5 is 20k. Our hacker has a Shiawase cyber something, this deck is worth 500k on the black market, I think. If we only get half of it, it is still 200k. 200 divided by five is 40k pp, I think.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

GM: 4k pp and that is Johnsons last offer.
T: People say I am not good with numbers, and call me dumb but we are in a group of five. 4k multiplied by 5 is 20k. Our hacker has a Shiawase cyber something, this deck is worth 500k on the black market, I think. If we only get half of it, it is still 200k. 200 divided by five is 40k pp, I think.

You would only divide the Deck Money by 4, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
So, 50k Nuyen... Not bad... too bad about the Hacker, though... But you can always get another Hacker.

[Sternenwind]

I think the Troll is someone who believes in fair and equal shares ... and is not good with numbers.