Run Payout, Extracted from Edition Discussion Options

[nezumi]

One great change SR4 made was dropping the cost of cyberware.

I totally get the 'you want your runners scrabbling for enough money to eat' part of the setting, but at the same time, that means your runners are never improving. Bringing down the cost of cyber made a *huge* difference there. I'm also a fan of payment in equipment/services, although obviously runners have a lot of issues accepting the Renraku cyberware installation, given the likelihood of trackers and all that.

[Cain]

First of all, that's not universal. In Hong-Kong, according to Runner Havens, runners are expected to pay the Triad boss just like any other gangs (and it makes perfect sense in the HK underground).

Smart runners will have all kinds of underworld contacts. It's a useful thing to have. And if the players decide that they have a "business arrangement" with a criminal organization, and represent that by giving them money from time to time, that's fine too.

- The concept of "deniable asset". If a runner can be traced back to a mafia, corps could retallliate against the mafia, which is some order of magnitude different from the cops trying to stop a car thief ring. Besides, while the mafia can use their influence to protect car thieves from police or to expose them if they aren't cooperative, they won't have so much leverage with corps and runners. More often than not, the corp won't be interested in catching the runners once the run is over.

Some criminal groups do have corporate ties. They certainly do in the real world. And even in Shadowrun, some corps are practically known for it: IIRC, Mitsuhama has several Yakuza bosses on their Board.

- Mafias are territorial. They control racket on their turf. A runner might have safe-houses there, and will pay adequate protection for them, but that's it. Unless we're talking about low-key runners who only take job inside a neighborhood. In that case, I guess they won't be exempt from the mafia tax.

It's not nearly that clear cut.

First of all, when you say "mafias", you mean organized crime groups, only one of which is known as the Mafia. I already mentioned the Yakuza, and there's the Triads/Tongs, various street gangs, the Seoulpula Rings in Shadowrun, and many others.

Second, they don't always control geographic "turf". Sometimes, they control rackets: the Mafia might control shipping and gambling, the Triads handle opium and knock off products, the Yakuza does prostitution and white collar blackmail, and so on. They can be scattered all over the city, but remain under one groups control.

Third, even when they do own areas, those areas can be wide spread. For example, the Triads/Tongs exist in many forms, ranging from perfectly legal "Benevolence Societies" to the brutal syndicates we hear about in the news. Because of this, nearly every "Chinese Chamber of Commerce" group can trace their history to a Triad group, which means they can be anywhere that Chinese people live. Thing is, nowadays that's everywhere-- yes, there are still Chinatowns, but for the most part, Chinese people live in all sections of every major city.

What this means is, even if a runner team is less than discreet about having a safehouse or running a chopshop, they still have a good chance to escape notice. They can fake being associated with someone else, or simply not say anything and let everyone assume they're affiliated with another group.

Please note that while I think that the mafia should knock on the door of whoever makes substantial money with a criminal business, I don't say that Shadowrunner should be paid little. I just say that if you want to play in a universe where runners are paid little, that's completely possible even if cars are expensive.

You lose... well, not "realism", given that this is a fantasy game; but you do strain suspension of disbelief. The era of Robin Hood Runners is long gone, runners are in it for the money. And if they can use their considerable skills and contacts to make more money doing other things, they would. For example, there was a long running problem where a mage could make so much money staying home producing orihalcum, they would never need to run again. My players actually asked me to ban it in my games, just to avoid the problem.

For the payout, I think there are many different aspects to consider.

There are, and you just scratched the surface. Paying runners is very much an art form, and like all art, it depends on the results you want.

For example: I used to way overpay the runners. What this led to was that they started expecting more and more money each time, so the cash flow got bigger and bigger, until it was so bad they wanted 5000 each just to get out of bed and go to a meet. That's another thing you need to consider.

You also not only have to consider their goals, but which ones you want them to reach first, and what effect reaching them will have on the game. Wired 3 is expensive, but it's not really game-breaking-- powerful, yes, but not that bad, not even deltaware. So, I might want to contrive a way to give a player beta or delta Wired 3-- find a discount, have him do a favor for someone with connections at a delta clinic, that sport of thing. On the other hand, a really high Force Power Focus can break a game, even though it retails for less than delta Wired 3. So, I'd think of ways to slow down the acquisition of that. Same's true with really customized vehicles; in SR2, I designed a custom sports car that could shrug off missile fire, maneuver itself better than most live riggers, had enough firepower to level a city block, and could go slightly faster than Mach 1. It was dubbed the "Knight Industries Ten Thousand" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) and I got it as a legal starting vehicle-- well under a million nuyen for everything, plus all my other toys. That was a much bigger problem than delta wired, even though the list price was a lot less.

You also need to consider story goals. For example, one character might be saving up a nest egg to retire. And that's a reasonable goal for a character, but it also means that if they get a big enough windfall, your campaign just ended. (Or, maybe you just lost a character.)

So yeah: there's a lot to consider, and it's all dependent on the table. There's no one right answer.

That said: I still advocate the high gear, low cash model. You do need to warn the players in advance, but that makes new gear into an entire adventure. You get better control over the cash flow, and you can better balance gear heavy characters vs the Awakened, because you can hand out the better toys as the magical characters advance. It worked well for me in many games, and I highly recommend it.

[hermit]

One great change SR4 made was dropping the cost of cyberware.

I totally get the 'you want your runners scrabbling for enough money to eat' part of the setting, but at the same time, that means your runners are never improving. Bringing down the cost of cyber made a *huge* difference there. I'm also a fan of payment in equipment/services, although obviously runners have a lot of issues accepting the Renraku cyberware installation, given the likelihood of trackers and all that.

While sometimes (especially with commlinks), SR4 went too ar and capped out Hackers way too soon (until War at least), I prefer SR4 cyberware prices myself, too. Makes for a much cleaner and more steadyadvancement or cybered runners.

Cybered characters are the red-headed stepchildren of SR5.

[Blade]

Don't forget riggers. The cost of a destroyed drone sets them back and your rigger can end up losing effectiveness as the campaign progresses.

That's why the more I think about this issue the more I think that the solution would be to have upgrades bought with karma, and only have nuyens for fluff, NERPS and temporary boosts. Upgrades bought with karma can't be lost, at worst they can be repaired for a few karma points (to avoid having the rigger bombard the enemies with drones loaded with explosives at every run). For example, if the rigger loses a drone bought with karma, he might find a drone of similar value lying around during the next run. It would also get rid of awakened vs augmented progression problems, provided the karma costs are balanced. Karma points could also account for loot, to avoid problems with player who take everything that isn't nailed down.

And then the fluff nuyens can be millions or chump change without throwing off game balance. It might require to stretch believability in the most extreme cases, though.

[Cain]

Same thing with the IN DEBT flaw.
Seeing the players deal with the mob is interesting there as well.
Just seeing them pay off the debt is boring.

My problem with In Debt and Day Job is poor game design: they're flaws that give you money. I'm fine with flaws that give you BP, that you can spend on money, but these do both.

One great change SR4 made was dropping the cost of cyberware.

I totally get the 'you want your runners scrabbling for enough money to eat' part of the setting, but at the same time, that means your runners are never improving. Bringing down the cost of cyber made a *huge* difference there. I'm also a fan of payment in equipment/services, although obviously runners have a lot of issues accepting the Renraku cyberware installation, given the likelihood of trackers and all that.

The problem I had was that they also reduced the starting cash, and set runner payments too low. So, in relative terms, cyber was just as expensive as before. Maybe even a bit more, in some cases.

I agree that it was a good idea, I just don't think they implemented it right.

That's why the more I think about this issue the more I think that the solution would be to have upgrades bought with karma, and only have nuyens for fluff, NERPS and temporary boosts. Upgrades bought with karma can't be lost, at worst they can be repaired for a few karma points (to avoid having the rigger bombard the enemies with drones loaded with explosives at every run). For example, if the rigger loses a drone bought with karma, he might find a drone of similar value lying around during the next run. It would also get rid of awakened vs augmented progression problems, provided the karma costs are balanced. Karma points could also account for loot, to avoid problems with player who take everything that isn't nailed down.

That idea certainly has merit, and I think it could work from a game balance perspective. However, from a "realism" perspective, if the characters aren't negotiating for payments each run, you start to wonder why they're running the shadows in the first place.

I'd actually suggest going the other way: all cash. Dramatically up the nuyen coming in, but stop awarding karma entirely. They can use their extra cast to buy karma, at whatever rate you see fit, and use that to improve their character. You can call in instructor fees, gym memberships, whatever-- they spend money doing stuff that will improve their abilities. Mages can call it study materials, or whatever they can justify.

[Blade]

The runners still get paid in nuyens IC, but OOC these nuyens are artificially split into "improvement nuyens" (karma points they can turn into nuyens for gear and improvements, merged with the rest of the karma points unless you want to bother with "you can only spend x karma in nuyens" limits) and "NERPS nuyens". Just like all the stuff characters learn during a run aren't converted into skills but in karma that they can then spend in skills.

[Grinder]

Cybered characters are the red-headed stepchildren of SR5.

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense to raise the cost of cyberware back to preSR4. It's one of my biggest complaints about SR5.

[Sengir]

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense to raise the cost of cyberware back to preSR4. It's one of my biggest complaints about SR5.

If just the cyberware costs in relation to how much money you get during generation had been increased, it would at least be something I could see a reasoning for. But they also massively increased that sum you get during chargen, bringing back the Million Dollar Samurai problem...

If cybereyes should become more expensive, why not just increase the price 5-fold instead of increasing the price 10-fold and doubling how much money can be spent?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If just the cyberware costs in relation to how much money you get during generation had been increased, it would at least be something I could see a reasoning for. But they also massively increased that sum you get during chargen, bringing back the Million Dollar Samurai problem...

If cybereyes should become more expensive, why not just increase the price 5-fold instead of increasing the price 10-fold and doubling how much money can be spent?

It makes no sense for Cyberware to INCREASE in cost after the 50 years that it has ben around. If anything, it should decrease in cost. SR4 recognized that fact, and thus they reduced the cost of the ware (even if they also decreased what a starting runner could accumulate at character generation). In my opinion, this was a good thing. The design path of SR5 completely screwed that up. If you want to make the ware more of a cost/benefit issue (All things have a cost after all) they should have just reduced the starting amount of Cash for character gen. At least it would have made more sense. Especially with the run payouts that they are putting forth.

[Sengir]

It makes no sense for Cyberware to INCREASE in cost after the 50 years that it has ben around

It makes as much sense as the world slowing down from SR1 to 2, changes in crunch numbers are for the most part done without fluff explanations -- which I think is a good approach, balancing the rules for overlapping blasts should not depend on whether somebody can think of a good IC reason why a bag of grenades should no longer act as a nuke (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The change isn't the problem, crunch which violates fluff is.

[tete]

Payout is tricky at best. I think DNA/DOA 100k payout scared GMs but part of it is supposed to be high pay for high risk. Then you have Mercurial paying out 5k. I think in both cases though you never saw the money IIRC. It still sets the debate for how much should I pay runners when its that divergent. I tend to go high on karma and pay because its a run hard die fast world.

[raben-aas]

Personally, I think a lot of payment AND gear cost problems can be solved by giving the characters GEAR AS PAYMENT. This way, the GM has some control about what kind of gear he wants the characters to have (or even NEEDS to have, for the next mission), and the GM can take care that the group has shiny and cool stuff like muscle cars, even helicopters to play with, WITHOUT any risk of throwing them 500K to buy a cool car that they use instead to buy some crazy sh*t cyberware that forces the GM to throw cybermonsters from hell at them to pose a challenge.

I.e. in my last mission, the players got the option to get an Ares Roadmaster. They can, of course, try to sell it - for a fraction of the actual worth. Or, they can use it and offer their services accordingly ("Say, I heard you have a Roadmaster at your disposal, so a. you are not a gutterpunk, obviously and b. here's a job I can offer only to runner groups with this kind of transportation".)

AAS

[hermit]

Sure, that helps a GM keep his campaign going where he wants it to go, and keep characters in reins. However, Gear-as-payment always comes with trust issues in-game and on the player side, especially concerning anything with matrix connection and/or requiring surgery to use.

[DuckEggBlue Omeg...]

Another problem with payment guidelines is people agreeing on what the goal of said guidelines should be. I know some players/GM's who think shadowrunners are skilled professionals and should be paid as such, I know others that think any SINless person has the same social standing as an illegal immigrant, and should be paid as such.

I'd say my preferred method is that the players make enough to make ends meet (expenses, lifestyle) and the REAL currency is favours, ofcourse then you get the Face with multiple high lifestyles and even that falls apart.

[apple]

Sure, that helps a GM keep his campaign going where he wants it to go, and keep characters in reins. However, Gear-as-payment always comes with trust issues in-game and on the player side, especially concerning anything with matrix connection and/or requiring surgery to use.

And of course players may have another idea of what their characters need.

SYL

[Shaidar]

And of course players may have another idea of what their characters need.

SYL

I usually find that people in general ask for what they want while they never know what they need.

[apple]

You know strange people. ^^

SYL

[nezumi]

I'm coming to the conclusion that a constant level of low cash isn't fun, but to give the appearance of poverty, high-variability may be.

I think the ideal solution might be a way to induce large unexpected debts. Medical treatment in theory contributes towards this, but I very rarely see characters who don't have the magical and technical resources to reduce these significantly. Riggers of course regularly have sudden outlays of cash. I'm at a loss for most other archetypes though.

[Medicineman]

Riggers of course regularly have sudden outlays of cash. I'm at a loss for most other archetypes though.

Decker who's Deck got physically damaged


with a very expensive Dance
Medicineman

[Sendaz]

Rumor has it a few companies are interested in dissecting Technomancers and E-critters to figure out a way to make a more organic deck with self-repair capabilities.

[binarywraith]

Decker who's Deck got physically damaged


with a very expensive Dance
Medicineman

Pretty much everyone who had to ditch a weapon/car/safe house because it was evidence.

[Cain]

I'm coming to the conclusion that a constant level of low cash isn't fun, but to give the appearance of poverty, high-variability may be.

I think the ideal solution might be a way to induce large unexpected debts. Medical treatment in theory contributes towards this, but I very rarely see characters who don't have the magical and technical resources to reduce these significantly. Riggers of course regularly have sudden outlays of cash. I'm at a loss for most other archetypes though.

That's what Lifestyle is for.

Generally, in a home game, I'll be a lot nicer about equipment wear and tear on those with a higher Lifestyle. The decker with a High lifestyle will have his stuff messed with a lot less than the sam living at a Squatter level, for example. And if certain rules are confusing or involve excessive bookkeeping, I'll sometimes abstract repair and maintenance into Lifestyle as well.

There used to be an official rule where a higher lifestyle actually reduced vehicle maintenance costs. It got weird when you had multiple vehicles to maintain, though, so I generally just abstracted things: at a middle lifestyle or better, you could ignore routine maintenance costs, automatically keep up with SOTA, that sort of thing. At a higher lifestyle, you could ignore most repair costs: you kept the parts on hand, or had a deal with your mechanic, so you only had to worry if it was totaled.

There were variations on this rule for everyone. Being Hospitalized used to be a separate lifestyle, which cost a lot, and unlike other lifestyles, charged per day. I ruled that a High or better Lifestyle was good enough for home rest in many cases, and Middle would work in some (if your damage was low enough). That meant you could spend a lot less on medical bills under some circumstances, if you had a better Lifestyle. I also did not charge higher lifestyles for stuff I consider to be "lifestyle maintenance": rotating credsticks and fake SIN's, for example, swapping out the transponder library, that sort of thing-- the little details all shadowrunners should do to maintain their anonymity.

Lifestyle is supposed to represent the abstract expenses of being a shadowrunner, and spare us from tedious bean counting. So, I like to use it as much as possible to take the pressure off my accounting, so I can focus on the game.

[binarywraith]

Just a note, Cain, the new expanded Lifestyle rules in Run Faster do just that. You can pick up stuff to give free repair of gear/vehicles, and certain expenses up to a threshold can be considered negligible and ignored.

[Cain]

Don't have that one yet, but the first problem I forsee is that the goal of a house rule like this is to simplify expenses. Generally, advance lifestyle rules make things more complicated.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Heh. We've danced this dance before: it's in my sig.


Mr. Johnson is offering the group the opportunity to risk life and limb, to say nothing of excessive jail sentences, having their augs ripped out, being organlegged because they're non-people, etc, for the pleasure of committing serious felonies against people whose first response will be to shoot at them rather than call for the cops.

The reward should be commensurate with that. Here's a rule of thumb that may or may not work: figure out what ride Mr. Johnson rode to the meet in. If the group would be better off just 'jacking his ride and selling it straight to a chop shop without bargaining, he's not offering anywhere near in the vicinity of enough money to be doing what he's asking them to do. And that's for an ordinary run; if he's asking them to do something nigh-suicidal, like go on a Bug Hunt, or breach a Renraku "Nobody gets out of here alive" facility, or something that's going to piss off a Dragon or Immortal Elf, the bare minimum should be for everybody on the team to get the sale price of his ride, and he'd better have rode a helicopter to the meet.

For everybody else? Well something I've always wanted to try when pitched a ridiculous lowball at a meet: Figure out what Johnson arrived in. Tell him you know what he arrived in. Show him a real-time feed of it from a drone, if you can. Expound upon the price you can get for it if you drove it to the nearest chop-shop and took their first offer without haggling for so much as cab fare, and how it would either be cut up by parts or on a boat for Hong Kong by tomorrow morning.

Then assure him that you have no intention of stealing his ride. That would be crass. But tell him approximately how many other rides with a similar worth you can find in the distance of a short walk. Now that he knows how much you stand to make by walking away from the table and doing something which carries an order of magnitude less risk and can be finished by sunup, have him explain to you again again why you should take his offered exciting opportunity to be perforated by high-velocity tungsten.

The money should come up, and/or perks that you can't get from a chop shop should be made available.



And re: the Mafia horning in on Shadowrunners who go into business as car thieves?

No. No they will not. Not more than, say, a token amount of like, 10% or so.

When ordinary car thieves piss off the mob, they can hire street gangers to go rough them up and make their point.
When Shadowrunners start freelancing and the mob feels annoyed, their options are basically to hire other, better runners - and much better runners if you want any kind of assurance it'll be done right the first time - to whack them all.

Shadowrunners are Dangerous People. If you try to horn in on them to the tune of 80% at threat of violence, you're backing them into a corner, and anyone who thinks that's a good position to put very dangerous people in would be well-advised to familiarize himself with the works of Sun-Tsu. Because if you put the squeeze on Runners like that, they're not going to pay you. They may:
Disappear, and plot revenge.
Come after you, personally, and then disappear if disappearance is an option.
Decide that you've got them basically dead to rights. This is the most dangerous option of all, because a small group of very dangerous people who have no fear of death (because they figure they're dead one way or another,) with the kind of skills Shadowrunners have, well, that's the kind of thing that can demolish an entire organization's leadership in the span of a few days before they get taken out.


And you want to be very wary of squeezing up-and-coming no-names, too. Sure, they might be exactly the up-and-coming newbies they look like. Or they could be a team of veteran Prime Runners who've moved to a new city/country with new identities for a new start.

The rewards for squeezing a Runner team gone freelance versus the risks are, quite simply, not worth it. You can probably ask them for a token amount to save face, which they'll agree to so as not to rock the boat, and everybody goes home happy. Or you can try to put their balls in a hydraulic press, and you'll have nobody but yourself to blame when your house soldiers are all dead, the alarms have been silenced before they went off, and they're burning through the door of your panic room with a thermal lance whilst chatting with you over the panic-room intercom, elaborating on the many means of dealing death they have at their disposal and soliciting your input on exactly how they should execute you.