Run Payout, Extracted from Edition Discussion Options

[binarywraith]

Moral of the story : Never make threat of violence to Shadowrunners. They get shot (and shot at) for a living. They are likely to respond to threats with overwhelming pre-emptive violence.

Their ability to do so is why they get paid in the first place.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Moral of the story : Never make threat of violence to Shadowrunners. They get shot (and shot at) for a living. They are likely to respond to threats with overwhelming pre-emptive violence.

Their ability to do so is why they get paid in the first place.

Yep. On the other hand, launching a massive, preemptive assault on a group of Runners is a guaranteed way to get them out for your blood if they survive, which, being the paranoid individuals they are, is a statistically significant chance.

Really, it would be simpler to just tell them that they're operating in your territory, picking off marks from your gangs, but if they give you an appropriate cut of their take, it's all cool. That's how profitable business relationships can get started, and Shadowrunners are no strangers to paying reasonable amounts of protection money.

[Bertramn]

I really like the rule of thumb with johnsons car.

And you guys are dead on with how runners deal with threats of violence, in my opinion.

[Shemhazai]

No, no, no. Completely wrong.

First of all, it's a mistake to think that the used car parts business is a way to get rich.

The police will get involved if a large number of vehicles go missing. Where would you be getting these cars, anyway? Eventually you'll make a mistake and that will be the end of it.

You could well be muscling in on mafia territory or worse, stealing from people who already pay protection money to a syndicate. The first thing that will happen is that chop shops will refuse to deal with you (not that they were paying you much anyway). Then the mob will figure out that you're too dangerous to negotiate with and have you killed. They are far more connected and have vastly greater resources than you. The best thing that could happen would be to manage to make a deal with them where they pay you ganger rates for street level crime.

[Isath]

True story! Cars are rather rare in a metroplex and it is far safer to risk an encounter with corp security, than to take the chance of local cops investigating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shemhazai]

True story! Cars are rather rare in a metroplex and it is far safer to risk an encounter with corp security, than to take the chance of local cops investigating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So you'll be stealing cars from a public area in a metroplex? Good luck. How much money do you think you can earn doing that? How many cars will you be stealing this way?

[apple]

First of all, it's a mistake to think that the used car parts business is a way to get rich.

Its not about getting rich (for that runners should invest into their own syndicate). Its about gamemaster who decide that the payment for runs is so low that It would be better to steal cars. Usually in the lower 4 digit nuyen range.

And yes, security and cops will look into large scale car heists - but usually other kind of crimes, lets say murder, extortion, kidnapping, large scale matrix terrorism, sabotage, usage of illegal heavy military weapons, combat cyberware, way to big explosives, illegal usages of combat spirits and mind rape spells, ID faking and murder (the daily bread and butter of runners around the world) tend to attract far more police/security/intelligence resources than car heists.

And how much? Well, if you go for the rules, its something around 20% from your trusted car fixer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

[Sendaz]

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/202...tneat02xml.html

This is just a bit disturbing, but not to surprising on some levels.

Maybe SedanRun™ is not so far fetched after all.

You don't even have to chop or sell it off to the fixer, some of these guys are selling back to the owner direct. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Now I have images of the team running out of a corp building just to find the rigger bound and gagged on the sidewalk with their ride gone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, it's pretty amazing isn't it?

[Shemhazai]

Its not about getting rich (for that runners should invest into their own syndicate). Its about gamemaster who decide that the payment for runs is so low that It would be better to steal cars. Usually in the lower 4 digit nuyen range.

And yes, security and cops will look into large scale car heists - but usually other kind of crimes, lets say murder, extortion, kidnapping, large scale matrix terrorism, sabotage, usage of illegal heavy military weapons, combat cyberware, way to big explosives, illegal usages of combat spirits and mind rape spells, ID faking and murder (the daily bread and butter of runners around the world) tend to attract far more police/security/intelligence resources than car heists.

And how much? Well, if you go for the rules, its something around 20% from your trusted car fixer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

If you're thinking that you're going to teach the gamemaster a lesson, then there's nothing I can say.

I take the view that a corporation that gets hit by a shadowrun does not go running to an external law enforcement corporation. They don't want the negative publicity, to reveal flaws in their operational security, to encourage copycats, to endanger their share value, to inadvertently reveal what they know about the perpetrators or methods, and, most of all, to potentially expose their own dirty secrets as to why the run was carried out in the first place.

The metroplex on the other hand contracts out their law enforcement responsibilities. Lone Star/Knight Errant are eager to demonstrate that they perform a valuable public service, profiting from making arrests and getting convictions. Major property crime against the upper class wealthy enough to have cars is most certainly going to be investigated every time it happens. As opposed to doing runs against corps who won't share what they know with each other, you'll be dealing with a police force that's building a case against you over time.

Most cars have no availability rating, so by the rules the amount you can sell those for will be very small. You could focus on high-end vehicles, but expect those to be kept far more securely. Even then, they will be reported as stolen. You could run afoul of organized crime, and you may even be underestimating who you're stealing from. After a few thefts of a certain model car, the cops might even plant one for you as a decoy.

So if you're up for a game where rather than corp security and high threat response, you engage with innocent witnesses and the police, and all the public awareness and notoriety that would entail, then more power to you. Remember, that same cheapskate GM also controls how much money you can make doing this and how hard it is to pull off.

[apple]

If you're thinking that you're going to teach the gamemaster a lesson, then there's nothing I can say.

Actually I am only recommending to use certain houserules, as previously already described. Not quite sure what you mean with "teaching a lesson".

and all the public awareness and notoriety

... of stealing cars? By a runner team who is apparently able to break in into high security corp facilities? Instead of murdering witnesses of illegal corp activities, blowing up factories full of workers to sabotage the release of a product, mass poisoning of metahumans to support a political claim from Humansis or kidnapping of children to blackmail the mother to swap the corp? Just to name some of the more nefarious activities runners are usually contracted. No, I do not believe that car stealing, done professionally, will in any way be more problematic, public or notorious than the usual runner activities, even grey runner activities.

If you really think that a car liberation is more problematic for a runner then the usual runner occupations which often can include multiple capital crimes, well, then there is nothing I can say and there shall be silence between us.

SYL

[Shortstraw]

Major property crime against the upper class wealthy enough to have cars is most certainly going to be investigated every time it happens. As opposed to doing runs against corps who won't share what they know with each other, you'll be dealing with a police force that's building a case against you over time.

You mean that corrupt police force that you can bribe a small amount to pin the case on an undesirable?

[Shemhazai]

Actually I am only recommending to use certain houserules, as previously already described. Not quite sure what you mean with "teaching a lesson".

Its not about getting rich (for that runners should invest into their own syndicate). Its about gamemaster who decide that the payment for runs is so low that It would be better to steal cars. Usually in the lower 4 digit nuyen range.

I was talking about that.

... of stealing cars? By a runner team who is apparently able to break in into high security corp facilities? Instead of murdering witnesses of illegal corp activities, blowing up factories full of workers to sabotage the release of a product, mass poisoning of metahumans to support a political claim from Humansis or kidnapping of children to blackmail the mother to swap the corp? Just to name some of the more nefarious activities runners are usually contracted. No, I do not believe that car stealing, done professionally, will in any way be more problematic, public or notorious than the usual runner activities, even grey runner activities.

If you really think that a car liberation is more problematic for a runner then the usual runner occupations which often can include multiple capital crimes, well, then there is nothing I can say and there shall be silence between us.

SYL

You're conflating the magnitude of the deeds with who knows about it. If your characters engage in public bombing and being seen by many eyewitnesses, then yes, they should gain notoriety as per the rules.

Feel free to get the extra knowledge skills and contacts to pull it off, spend time planning good car theft, and be prepared to earn a lot less than you think you will. It depends on the GM, and she might not be thrilled at that point.

EDIT:

You mean that corrupt police force that you can bribe a small amount to pin the case on an undesirable?

If you can do that to make them go away in your game, by all means do. I would argue that your return would already be small to begin with, but I really have no idea how much your characters can make stealing cars at your table.

[Blade]

There are different ways to see the Shadowrun underworld and especially runners.

Runners can be elite mercenaries, who could work for corps if they just bothered to fill in the paperwork and accepted to take orders, or they can be gutterpunks who happened to stumble on some cyber/deck or who turned out to be Awakened and hope they can use this edge to work their way out of the dump.

The Barrens can be like bad neighborhood in today's American cities, or they can be like favelas or slums in poorer countries.

If you consider that runners are gutterpunk who live in a place where unless you're a gang leader or mafia boss you're no better than a slave, and that there are many runner wannabes and few jobs, then you can pay runners a few thousand nuyens to risk their lives. Because it's either that, be a slave. Any attempt to change the status quo will end with them chopped off for replacement parts. It's completely unfair, but it's the sad reality in that depressing world.
It's not for everyone, but it's still a possible setting that can make sense even if there are cars and talismonger shops.

[ShadowDragon8685]

If you can do that to make them go away in your game, by all means do. I would argue that your return would already be small to begin with, but I really have no idea how much your characters can make stealing cars at your table.

Per the Rules as they are Written (for SR4, mind you, I wouldn't touch SR5 with a 3.048m pole,) the base fencing price of anything is 30% of its retail value. Finding someone to take it off your hands is an Extended test, threshold (Negotiation + Charisma) 10, with a 6 hour interval. If the party has any Face worth the name, they can nail that in one shot, and the Face can probably rush their work, too.

Or, you know, they could just hand it off to your Face, he'll probably take it off your hands for 15-20% of its retail value.

Now, let's look at an example, shall we?

Let's take the humble Rover 2068. It has a price-tag high enough to be worth going after it over going after other things, it's also going to be cheap enough and ubiquitous enough for there to be a big market for, ahem, aftermarket aquisitions. It has a Pilot rating of 2 - that means it has a System rating of 2. Whatever IC it's going to be loaded with is going to have a rating of 2, which means that the highest dice pool it's going to be able to muster is 4.

If your team's hacker can't rip through a dice pool of 4, I don't even know what you're doing playing Shadowrun. So, basically, your team's hacker is going to take command of the car without any trouble. From there, they're going to use their admin powers to lock out the legitimate owner, and direct the Rover to pilot itself to a chop shop in the Barrens, possibly stopping by where your team are camped so you can go through it and see if the owner left any property inside worth looting.

The Rover 2068 retails for 25,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and it's going to be absolutely trivial to take control of it by hacking. Its standard fence price is 7,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) which is, I want you to note, 3/4ths of the total Johnson award for On the Run, a mission which is going to lead the players into conflict with two teams of corporate security men, Devil Rats, gangers, a team of Shadowrunners, and fucking Vampires, is likely to take them about three to four day to complete, and will make them at least one enemy no matter what they do, and probably two.

So if the group, instead, told Darius St. Johnson to stick his idea of "generosity" up his ass, left Club Infinity, and jacked a Rover 2068 out of the parking garage, they'd have made 3/4ths of what Mr. Johnson was "authorized" to offer, for approximately one hour's work and 1% of the risk of taking his job.

If they instead jack two Rovers 2068, either both in one night or on sequential nights, they'll have pulled down 15,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) which is exactly what they'd get from Darius St. George if they not only retrieved the disk for him, but kept copies out of everyone else's hands.

If they jack three Rover 2068s three nights in a row, they'll have earned 22,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) which is more than they'll get from Darius St. George, but not more than they'll get from Risa - her offer was twice what Darius St. George offered, plus five thousand each. Assuming a team of 4 Runners, that's 40,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) but it also comes with the reputation of being someone who sold out Mr. Johnson.

Or, you can get 45,000 nuyen by jacking six Rovers 2068. With a Face who can mutli-task her search for a fence, a dedicated hacker, and the group goons to guard the Rovers on their way to whatever abandoned location in the Barrens you're using to accumulate the Rovers (and search them in) before you ship them to the chop shops, you can do that in the span of one busy night, or by jacking two Rovers a week and taking a week off. That should pay the rent, easily, even if everybody's holding down a Middle lifestyle.

Now, I'll point out that the Rover 2068? Totally not even the best vehicle to do this with, but probably the best one from a standpoint of the GM having the hardest time saying "practicality" to fuck you, because it is, as I mentioned, a high-end consumer SUV. A Nordkapp Zugmaschine with trailer has no better a Pilot rating than a Rover 2068, and has a retail value of 110,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) before you consider the value of the cargo itself. On the other hand, the kind of people who operate tractor trailers probably have overwatch hackers, so you might have an actual matrix battle on your hands to get that. But that's okay, the Ford-Canada Buffalo, a big RV, clocks in at 55,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and has no greater Pilot. And the GMC Hermes - a delivery van, of which there should be approximately no shortage in Seattle, clocks in at 45,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) again before cargo value is taken into consideration. The Ares Roadmaster is 48,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) too.

And this isn't even getting into specialist vehicles. A Lone Star modified Honda 3240 police interceptor has a Pilot rating of 2, and a cost of 107,500 and a DocWagon SRT has a cost of 65,000 plus the substantial value of the medical supplies inside.

But yeah, those are gonna be problematic. Police interceptors don't generally leave the police yard without a rigger inside, and while ambulances are somewhat less guarded, it's only somewhat. Either way, you'd be picking a fight with an organization.

So don't do that. Point out the ridiculous money you can make stealing RVs and delivery vans, and the reliable and decent money you can make selling SUVs. For practically no risk and little chance the cops are even going to bother investigating, let alone actually set out a bait car for you.

Then ask yourselves, ask your GM, and most of all, ask Mr. Johnson, why, exactly, you should take him up on his exciting offer to risk perforation and commit dozens of capital crimes and probably hundreds of felonies and thousands of misdemeanors. After all, his entire purpose being here is to financially incentivize you to do those things, take those risks. If he's unwilling, or unable, to provide a sufficient incentive that you want to go and risk and life, when compared to the nearly zero risk and steady income of only a few grand thefts auto a month, or the equavilent of one busy night's work for a team of Shadowrunners, then he's wasting his time and yours, and you are not fellows who are keen to have your time wasted.

[Bertramn]

God this reminds me of the stories of raids on ambulances to get DMSO, in the Squirt Gun Wars.

I wish I would have been around when that was a thing.

[Siygess]

But surely, if it's just so damn easy to steal all these cars and sell them on as easy as you would pawn your TV, why isn't every shadowrunner doing just this instead of runs?

[Medicineman]

But surely, if it's just so damn easy to steal all these cars and sell them on as easy as you would pawn your TV, why isn't every shadowrunner doing just this instead of runs?

because A)
lots of Players don't have the Guts to say no to their GM (Im talking Players and GM here , not Runners and Johnson)
B ) some of the Players don't know that they can choose not to accept their GMs offer
C) some GMS take it as a personal Insult If the Players don't go on "His Run"
D) some Players don't think that it may be easy to steal a Car because they don't know the rules
E) some Player think they have to stick to the official Runs because they don't know better
F ) the official Guideline for Runners Fees is quite low (Foodfight 5.0 offers 500 ¥ to rescue a Kidnapped Girl from the Mafia and another 500 If they "finish them Off once and for all" and if thats the official Line than it's no wonder some of the GMs get miserly ) so some Players think that its a Default Line for their Chars to have only small Money
G ) some GMs think that its quite ok to keep the Chars empty pockets and that its "Evil" if the Chars earn quite some Money. They simply don't know any better.
H) not every Char or Runner Group is skilled enough nor has the Connections for such a Heist.
Stealing & selling one maybe two Cars per Month is OK (specially in a Metroplex with 5 Million like Seattle)
but fencing more than that needs a dedicated Fixer/Fence or maybe a whole Group/Organisation.
It may be of Help if one of the Chars is a Made Man or has such a group Connection


with an alphabet Dance
Medicineman

[Mach_Ten]

But surely, if it's just so damn easy to steal all these cars and sell them on as easy as you would pawn your TV, why isn't every shadowrunner doing just this instead of runs?

Agree with most of MM's points there, but I said it earlier.

driving a fuel delivery tanker is profitable ... why is everyone not doing it ?
done enough times, street muggings for gold watches and creds is profitable .. why is everyone not doing it ?
being a CEO of a AAA corp is profitable, why is everyone not doing it ?

a) it's a game ... simulationist sometimes, but still a game ... I do not enjoy PnP GTA for the rest of my gaming career
b) it's repetitive as hell, why would criminals get themselves what amounts to a "Day Job" ? that's usually entirely the opposite of what being a criminal / Runner Is all about
c) take it from a Runner perspective "In Character" you'd just burn the fixer that keeps offering you rubbish paying jobs ... probably with fire

[Siygess]

The way that car theft seems to be discussed here seems to go right for the extremes with no real thought for the external factors that 'runners don't control. Posters either comment that nicking cars and selling them is as easily done as Grand Theft Auto 1 (jump inside, drive into a chop shop, ???, profit) or that as soon as someone sets a greasy paw on a hot car 3 SWAT vans tip up and even after running firefights to get the car to your fence, once you do they either pay you buttons or you get kneecapped for not asking permission from the local mob to steal a car.

In my opinion stealing cars shouldn't be so easy to do. In a high surveillance world (which from all accounts SR4 is) tracking a stolen car by law enforcement should be trivial unless all the angles are covered by the thieves. Dispatch a squad car or a few drones once located and it should be case closed, never mind the fact whatever fixer your selling to is going to get a bit pissed off with you delivering six used Honda Civics every week and expecting 30% of the sale price each and every time. So, nicking sedans for profit I don't see as feasible. Putting together a crew to take down a high performance/high cost vehicle I can see attracting shadowrunners looking for profit. But that of course increases the risks and a GM can easily tailor that kind of idea into an actual on the fly shadowrun.

Back to the main topic, Shadowrun payment should be based on several factors; Value of target, resources of Johnson, risk, opposing forces/opposing forces the runners know about, downpayments and expenses, etc etc. Thinking about it these same factors also come into play in car heists; the better the target the better the payoff.

Also not all runs are paid for, sometimes runners are just forced into situations where they have to make the best of what's before them. And in all my years GMing shadowrun I've not come across one team that doesn't loot as much as they can in runs to "enhance" their paypacket.

[binarywraith]

Seriously, that's how the decking/rigging rules interface right now. It's that easy. Cars are Devices, which in SR5 parlance means they're online by default. Control order is Rigger > Remote > Manual > Autopilot (SR5 P265) and a lower or equal state of control cannot usurp a higher one until the turn after the higher level of control stops controlling the vehicle. So unless the parked car's got a rigger hot-seating it, it's Hack on the Fly vs [Intuition + Firewall]. Since Pilot programs use their rating for all mental attributes and Matrix attributes, a Pilot 2 car has 4 dice to resist.

A monkey with a Speak And Spell can out-hack that. 3 marks and it's yours, issue Control Device actions all day to do whatever with it, or just order it to shut down and put it on a tow truck.

[Bertramn]

The way that car theft seems to be discussed here seems to go right for the extremes with no real thought for the external factors that 'runners don't control. Posters either comment that nicking cars and selling them is as easily done as Grand Theft Auto 1 (jump inside, drive into a chop shop, ???, profit) or that as soon as someone sets a greasy paw on a hot car 3 SWAT vans tip up and even after running firefights to get the car to your fence, once you do they either pay you buttons or you get kneecapped for not asking permission from the local mob to steal a car.

In my opinion stealing cars shouldn't be so easy to do. In a high surveillance world (which from all accounts SR4 is) tracking a stolen car by law enforcement should be trivial unless all the angles are covered by the thieves. Dispatch a squad car or a few drones once located and it should be case closed, never mind the fact whatever fixer your selling to is going to get a bit pissed off with you delivering six used Honda Civics every week and expecting 30% of the sale price each and every time. So, nicking sedans for profit I don't see as feasible. Putting together a crew to take down a high performance/high cost vehicle I can see attracting shadowrunners looking for profit. But that of course increases the risks and a GM can easily tailor that kind of idea into an actual on the fly shadowrun.

Well, per 4th Edition rules and onward, the car is hack-able. If no alarm is caused while hacking, the authorities will not know that the car has been stolen at all,
save for the case of the owner noticing it right away.
Also per 4th Edition rules, you can do that from across the street, without getting near the car at all.
It should not be this easy, but it is. Tough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The point about the Fixer I do not get. Why assume the runners want the pay on delivery? A deal can be struck. Different models can be stolen. Stealing specific models on-demand can be done.

[Siygess]

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the stealing i.e. the taking of the car from it's owner is that easy, even in SR3 (the edition I play) it's easy to boost bog standard cars. But once you have it getting it to where it's being sold and actually selling it, and then repeating the whole shebang should be the difficult part.

IRL now stealing cars is easy (allegedly *coughs*), making a living from stealing cars; now there's the trick. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Siygess]

Well, per 4th Edition rules and onward, the car is hack-able. If no alarm is caused while hacking, the authorities will not know that the car has been stolen at all,
save for the case of the owner noticing it right away.

But once the owner has noticed it missing, it's reported and then surveillance world comes into play.

The point about the Fixer I do not get. Why assume the runners want the pay on delivery? A deal can be struck. Different models can be stolen. Stealing specific models on-demand can be done.

Different models, same "class" of car. I mentioned the Honda Civic as it used to be a fairly ubiquitous model and is also mentioned in Gone in 60 Seconds if any other film buffs caught the reference (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shemhazai]

Great idea everyone.

A few extra skills could make things easier. Like knowledge skills about organized crime, street gangs, chop shops, police procedures, automotive anti-theft systems, automobile tracking by the manufacturer, used vehicle part prices, etc. Also, having team members that can use rigging, hacking, magic, infiltration, electronic warfare (for faking out anti-theft that relies upon the car being able to communicate wirelessly, e.g. if you drive it into a Faraday cage the system automatically starts working, trying to contact the driver, geolocating the vehicle, a friendly message to local cops about a possible theft, etc.), legwork on the cars and their owners before you steal them, negotiation, etc can make things work more professionally.

But still expect a disappointing payday. Since you'd be going to a chop shop, the amount of your offers should be based on the car parts they can salvage, not the entire, new, not registered as stolen rulebook value for a vehicle. Since there aren't list prices for scrap materials, the GM needs to determine that amount, but they are certainly nowhere near that of a luxury car.

I don't have 4th ed in front of me, but I remember the value being less if the market is flooded or if the goods are reported stolen. And expect that mistakes will get you pinched by the police, and that organized crime will be increasingly unhappy with what you're doing if you turn it into an operation. The parts are worthless if nobody is willing to deal with you.

And if any group told me they were just going on hiatus to do this for a few years to save up for all the best gear before actually going on real runs as a shortcut to unlimited starting resources, I'd just find different people to play with.

One final question, does the Sammy get an equal cut, even if she has virtually nothing to offer the the scheme, except for possibly someday fighting off the police or the mob when they come calling?