Special Forces in the 6th World, De Opresso Frag 'em All Options

[VagabondStar]

Cortex bombs present some pretty nasty potential for high-profile targets. The potential for massive death-dealing at the cost of one's own life is nearly limitless in the sixth world. I agree that a magician suicide bomber is a waste of potential... but using a mind control spell, a masked magic item, or some other nasty set up has potential at a lesser cost.

But back to SF in the 6th.

Long range reconnaissance can be achieved with ease using astral projection - but do you think an astral form would be able to call in an air strike?

[kzt]

Sure. You have telepathic communication with your bound spirit. Which is working the radio back at Hq.

[Cthulhudreams]

Sponsoring an insurgency in any country just requires some voluteers and a C130 cargo drop. You put in some medical drones, and then crates and crates of medical supplies and skillwires.

Bam. Instant army. Its actually super in cool in that once perp 1 and 2 recover, they can do the operation on guy 3. Quite a bad ass army too as you break out the rating 6 skillwires and R4 active softs and go to town. You don't even need people. Plus you just put your own 'be nice to me' stuff in the 'softs. Then distribute programs, agents and some guns. Tada.

Ultimately though, it depends on what you think warfare is like.

[VagabondStar]

Sponsoring an insurgency in any country just requires some voluteers and a C130 cargo drop. You put in some medical drones, and then crates and crates of medical supplies and skillwires.

Bam. Instant army. Its actually super in cool in that once perp 1 and 2 recover, they can do the operation on guy 3. Quite a bad ass army too as you break out the rating 6 skillwires and R4 active softs and go to town. You don't even need people. Plus you just put your own 'be nice to me' stuff in the 'softs. Then distribute programs, agents and some guns. Tada.

Ultimately though, it depends on what you think warfare is like.

Something like this would probably be very difficult to sell. An insurgency has to be supported by the local population to succeed for any length of time.

[Sir_Psycho]

Those things are hardly mutually exclusive. You find the most charismatic leader who's profile fits an insurgency leader and you bankroll him and donate technology to support his followers. He doesn't even have to know that he's under your control, and even if he does, he can pretsent to his followers that it's the greater power that is beholden to him (whether he's pretending or not). With psychotropic conditioning, the followers don't even know that they belong to you and not him.

It'd be just like today's Al Quaeda, except they can't turn on you years later with the weapons and training you've given them, because they've been conditioned against it. And you wouldn't even need the skillwires, as they can just learn in VR training from tutorsofts. They'd be harder to find, too, because they'd never need to fire their guns until they actually stage the operations. And the internal IFF you put in their smartguns means that even if they some-how reverse the psychotropic conditioning, then they have to find some-one else to bankroll them for new equipment.

[Flatliner]

How much of the direct action needs would Shadowrunners or mercs fulfill?

Would Shadowrunners or mercs be used for special reconnaissance?

[Kliko]

Special Recce and Shock Troops/ Super Troopers.

[Shiloh]

How much of the direct action needs would Shadowrunners or mercs fulfill?

Would Shadowrunners or mercs be used for special reconnaissance?

Anything that benefits from skills over 4 or taskings that need more than 12 skill point ratings... or serious dice pools only reachable by specialist training and extensive augmentation. Magic.

[VagabondStar]

Those things are hardly mutually exclusive. You find the most charismatic leader who's profile fits an insurgency leader and you bankroll him and donate technology to support his followers. He doesn't even have to know that he's under your control, and even if he does, he can pretsent to his followers that it's the greater power that is beholden to him (whether he's pretending or not). With psychotropic conditioning, the followers don't even know that they belong to you and not him.

It'd be just like today's Al Quaeda, except they can't turn on you years later with the weapons and training you've given them, because they've been conditioned against it. And you wouldn't even need the skillwires, as they can just learn in VR training from tutorsofts. They'd be harder to find, too, because they'd never need to fire their guns until they actually stage the operations. And the internal IFF you put in their smartguns means that even if they some-how reverse the psychotropic conditioning, then they have to find some-one else to bankroll them for new equipment.

Sounds expensive. I like it.

[martindv]

It'd be just like today's Al Quaeda, except they can't turn on you years later with the weapons and training you've given them, because they've been conditioned against it.

There is nothing that cannot be done. And by relying on technology and SR4 rules, it is almost assured that this will in fact come back to bite them in the ass. Perhaps not organically, but then again how many truly grassroots/underground movements are there or have there ever been in SR without some power player sticking their nose into it? As I recall, the answer is almost if not indistinguishable from zero.

[VagabondStar]

The next real question concerning SF in Shadowrun is how many unconventional operations would be government backed?

It seems like the potential for Corporations to crowd into the small wars market in order to open up new markets in previously restricted locales is pretty strong.

Look at what happened in Haiti, for instance, during the banana wars - while the troops were government - the interests were very strongly of corporate influence.

[VagabondStar]

And as far as Al Qaeda goes... are you thinking more in line with The Taliban? They were supported by the CIA in the 80s. But AQ and Taliban are not the same thing.

[Sir_Psycho]

And as far as Al Qaeda goes... are you thinking more in line with The Taliban? They were supported by the CIA in the 80s. But AQ and Taliban are not the same thing.

My bad, mixed up. Continue as normal.

Sounds expensive. I like it.

Expensive? Really? All you need is a range of cracked tutorsofts for them to knuckle down with, and some commlinks with sim modules. They live in their mountain cave for a few months, eating, praying, listening to sermons about how some guy really wants them to kill themselves in his name, because then after they die they will go to a better place, and then they hit the simulations for a few hours, all revved up.

The guns are more expensive, but not by much, and not by any corporate or government budget. You just hit a bazaar in Damascus or Constantinople or wherever and buy a dozen crates of AK-97s. Then you go and find some gunsmithing children (or drones, but child labour is so much more fun) that can put internal smartlinks into all of those guns. Then you pick them up and drop them on your new "friends".

There is nothing that cannot be done. And by relying on technology and SR4 rules, it is almost assured that this will in fact come back to bite them in the ass. Perhaps not organically, but then again how many truly grassroots/underground movements are there or have there ever been in SR without some power player sticking their nose into it? As I recall, the answer is almost if not indistinguishable from zero.

Can you suggest some examples of those technology and rules and how and why it will not work? At least work better than the insurgency training used in the 20th century? I'm sure you have a point, but without an example, I don't see it being "almost assured".

[VagabondStar]

The big thing about insurgency is that it cannot afford to hide in mountain caves praying. If they are not out propagandizing and winning hearts and minds, the government forces will. If the insurgents cannot hide with at least the passive support of MOST of the population in an area, they will be found out, and hunted down.

Skillsofts and medical drones will not matter when jetfighters start to strafe your position, and gunships begin firing rockets.


And then there is the issue of deniability.


Expensive because when you look at what the CIA did with the taliban, the cost of supplying wwii era enfields (which on average have a 400-500 meter range advantage on a kalashnikov) and stinger missiles compared to what it cost to mobilize, supply, billet, and provide service to occupying forces and puppet government forces for the soviet union in Afghanistan....

well...

you may see my point to some extent.

But I guess deniability is the biggest issue with skillsofts and drones.

But hey - in your game you make the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Sir_Psycho]

Personally I don't think deniability is a problem. You wouldn't use your own equipment. Like in the example I gave of picking up a dozen crates of Ak-97s in Damascus, they're unlikely to be traced back to you. Also, because what you're doing is illegal anyway, you don't need to respect copyright law, either. So you can buy say, 12 softs that can be distributed between hundreds and even thousands of militants. And again, by using tutorsofts you don't have to cybernetically enhance them.

I'm not familiar with the operations of the Soviets in Afghanistan, can you elaborate?

Actually, that's interesting what you say about the mountain caves. By cutting skillwires out of the equation, you don't need a centralized area for these operatives to be to get wired. You just set up a secure VPN for the militants and some matrix drop boxes and they don't need to live in a cave with you, because they use simulations for training, and work out - you can't nail them while they train, because they're doing it in their heads. And when it comes time for the operation they go pick up their AK's and body armour and move out.

[VagabondStar]

Soviets in Afghanistan:

The soviet union had had its fingers in afghanistan for a long time. In the late 1970s they began making incursions into afghan territory to assist the mostly pro-soviet government quell uprisings from local insurgents. These insurgents would eventually become the Taliban.

The CIA supported the Taliban while the Soviets began pouring troops and equipment into Afghanistan believing that a show of military force would sufficiently intimidate the guerrillas into surrendering the fight.

Oddly enough, it did not.

What the soviets DID manage to do was destroy any semblance of legitimacy they had previously presented to the international arena in a brutal series of search and destroy campaigns to wipe out Mujahideen fighters. They also managed to alienate themselves from the majority of the afghan population.


The CIA supported the Mujahideen and Taliban fighters by supplying british einfields, chinese kalashnikovs, and other weaponry. The heaviest thing they supplied were stinger missiles to counter Soviet Helicopters, which were able to outmaneuver RPGs. Those were the only item given that could not be easily denied. Luckily the soviets never captured any.

Unluckily, there are several unused stingers still floating around the region.

And then: John Rambo appeared on the scene, and single handedly ejected the soviet forces in a glorious series of shootouts culminating in a jousting match between a t-72 tank and a kasatka helicopter.

Sufficed to say,

it rocked hard.

Two Books to read:

The Bear went over the Mountain (Now called "Afghan Guerilla War") which is available free online.

and Ghost Wars - which probably is not, but libraries are wonderful places.

[kzt]

And as far as Al Qaeda goes... are you thinking more in line with The Taliban? They were supported by the CIA in the 80s. But AQ and Taliban are not the same thing.

The Taliban didn't exist until the 90s, after the USSR was kicked out of Afghanistan. They were a grass-roots response to the excesses of the victorious mujahedeen (and other) warlords, then heavily supported (as in being lent regular infantry battalions) by Pakistan until they controlled most of the Afghanistan. This was well after the US stopped supporting anyone in Afghanistan.

[VagabondStar]

The Taliban didn't exist until the 90s, after the USSR was kicked out of Afghanistan. They were a grass-roots response to the excesses of the victorious mujahedeen (and other) warlords, then heavily supported (as in being lent regular infantry battalions) by Pakistan until they controlled most of the Afghanistan. This was well after the US stopped supporting anyone in Afghanistan.

Kind of debatable. The Taliban Government didn't exist until after the soviets left, but that doesn't mean that the Taliban (and various groups of people who were eventually folded into the Taliban) didn't already exist.

But you make a good point. One should be careful with their labels.

[Cthulhudreams]

When I made my previous comment, I'm assuming that there is an insurgency that you then 'sponsor' - ie the population was already P.Oed your just giving them better fighting bling.

As for denibility... you then go one to quote the CIA giving the afgans stinger missles. EVERYONE knows that it was the US. why the hell do I need to be deniable again?

In SR, everyone knows that the corps regularly send professional criminals after each other. They make TV shows about it.

[Chrysalis]

The stingers use a liquid nitrogen battery to cool the infrareed sensor. They have a shelf life of six months.

I still think that supporting terrorism went out of style like fuzzy dice and the Atari back in the 80s. Very little reason for a government to maintain force which is expensive, clandestine, and revealing it opens up a whole nest of uncomfortable problems.

-Chrysalis

[Flatliner]

In SR, everyone knows that the corps regularly send professional criminals after each other. They make TV shows about it.

Everyone knows it happens, but it's deniable at least for the purposes of the setting. No one can prove anything.

Looking at things "realistically," it wouldn't be impossible for a megacorp to link a captured 'runner back through the chain to the other AAA that hired the team, but for the purposes of the game setting the semi-anonymous NPC offering the job breaks the chain.

If a megacorp could prove another was kidnapping researchers, sabotaging reactors, and stealing data the Court would have to come down on it. Governments are in a similar situation.

Govn't-A may really want to interfere with Govn't-B, but may not want to deal with the various consequences of going to war. G-A needs to be able to...deny involvement in G-B's affairs and misfortunes.

[VagabondStar]

The stingers use a liquid nitrogen battery to cool the infrareed sensor. They have a shelf life of six months.

I learned something.

[kzt]

It's actually more complex than that. Jane's says it has "an argon gas Battery Coolant Unit (BCU) (which consists of the squib activated argon gas coolant unit and electrical generating chemical battery)." There are supposed to by three packaged with each missile round. Each round is a sealed unit with a fairly long lifetime. The lifetime has long expired for the ones given to the Muj.

[VagabondStar]

As for denibility... you then go one to quote the CIA giving the afgans stinger missles. EVERYONE knows that it was the US. why the hell do I need to be deniable again?

The stingers were a big deal because they were so hard to deny. As a result, the CIA did not hand out that many of them... in a relative sense. The assumptions made by the officers who Ok'd the Stingers were that the Muj would stay in the mountains and use them to defend against helicopters. For the most part, that is what happened. In that kind of scenario, the chances of the soviets recovering a launcher was slim to none - by their reckoning.


If you don't think deniability is important in this kind of operation, that's fine. Again - your game is your game. I can't change what other people did in the real world - but the CIA had express instructions to remain covert and to not show America's hand in the aid of the Mujahideen. Did that mean that everyone basically knew it was happening? Sure. But no one could prove it.

All risks taken in regard to the covert nature of the program were weighed against the likelihood of discovery vs. the benefit to the insurgency. In the case of the stingers, they decided to put the big rubber approved stamp on it.

[VagabondStar]

It's actually more complex than that. Jane's says it has "an argon gas Battery Coolant Unit (BCU) (which consists of the squib activated argon gas coolant unit and electrical generating chemical battery)." There are supposed to by three packaged with each missile round. Each round is a sealed unit with a fairly long lifetime. The lifetime has long expired for the ones given to the Muj.

I bow to your superior esoteric knowledge.