OK, I'm ready to bind a force 12 spirit., Now how do we kill it if it goes free? Options

[Da9iel]

@Muspellshiemr Channeling would be useful for a possession tradition conjurer. I hadn't thought of the longer physical track. Thank you.

@Shiloh Committing suicide alone is certainly an option.

@Rasumichin "Boni" is covered about half way down. It's been linked in this forum before, but yes, it is false. As a rule of thumb, if adding an "s" or "es" sounds good, it's right, and it's probably wrong to try something else.

@Kazum re: longer summons. I'm not sure how a plane would work but traveling is probably easier anyway. It's been covered in the faq that N of the arctic circle/S of the antarctic circle = long term summoned spirits (thank you crizh). The conjurer could heal up from the summoning drain and try to bind any force she was crazy enough to try. On the other hand, if the conjurer wants to try this with an ally, there's no rest period between summoning and binding anyway.

@masterofm Let's say that our conjurer is scrupulously kind to her spirits. They are her bread and butter. I'm still not sure that an she would be safe from an uncontrolled spirit. Knowing the GM, it's certainly not worth the risk if reasonable and unoffensive precautions can be taken. PS Thank you for the build advice, but our silly little elf girl is already built. She's apparently done that math. I'm researching damage control after the fact.

@crizh A spirit can go where the summoner has been. Binding requires a successful summoning first. The spirit will have a lock on the location of the conjurer above ground. The deep hole still wouldn't work even if it was shallow enough to not be a remote service and the GM said our suicide girl could conjure it into the hole. Which leads to Skip's mention of hiding. You have to get away and hide first. It's not going to work. Jaid mentioned binding materials. They are physical objects requiring physical presence.
In regards to this thing going free . . . I pray the GM doesn't choose this path. I don't remember SR4 making any note of going free when it talks about uncontrolled spirits, but free spirits are mostly covered in SM. What is the difference between a free spirit and a merely uncontrolled spirit? Might any uncontrolled spirit choose to go free after a botched or fatal binding? Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[crizh]

@crizh A spirit can go where the summoner has been. Binding requires a successful summoning first. The spirit will have a lock on the location of the conjurer above ground. The deep hole still wouldn't work even if it was shallow enough to not be a remote service and the GM said our suicide girl could conjure it into the hole. Which leads to Skip's mention of hiding. You have to get away and hide first. It's not going to work. Jaid mentioned binding materials. They are physical objects requiring physical presence.
In regards to this thing going free . . . I pray the GM doesn't choose this path. I don't remember SR4 making any note of going free when it talks about uncontrolled spirits, but free spirits are mostly covered in SM. What is the difference between a free spirit and a merely uncontrolled spirit? Might any uncontrolled spirit choose to go free after a botched or fatal binding? Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

A Spirit can go where its Summoner is but the Summoner must expend a service. Can't think why I'd do that, can you?

It's up to the GM but any Uncontrolled Spirit, usually above Force 6, can have a chance of going Free.

It's an Edge(2) test with net hits adding to it's starting Edge of 1. Once it's Free Disrupting it isn't good enough, it'll be back in less than a month. You either need it's Truename or there is an even more difficult Banishing Test to keep it Banished.

[Shiloh]

...PS Thank you for the build advice, but our silly little elf girl is already built. She's apparently done that math. I'm researching damage control after the fact...

Depending on what she's trying to summon up, it might be worth popping some rounds in her bonce before she tries it. I wouldn't put it past some spirits to capture/enslave an importunate summoner and make them watch as they hunted down their former friends, even if you had nothing to do with the summoning.

[Ravor]

Shiloh brings up a good point, even if you let your summoner ice herself alone you aren't safe. Why does she want a ( Force 12 ) monster anyways?

[darthmord]

20 drain will probably mean unconsciousness and therefore potentially berserking spirit, even if you have 12+ magic to convert it to stun (and a whole lot of physical overflow, most likely).

you would need to have something to keep you conscious long enough to send the spirit back to the metaplanes or you're still pretty much gonna die =P

Well, if you have a sufficiently high enough Body & Willpower along with that 12+ Magic, you really should opt for a Pain Editor. Yes it is a hit to the mojo but the bennies are quite significant to a summoner. Pass out from drain? Really? Not gonna happen with Pain Editor.

Then you also have the Trauma Damper which can work its magic (assuming it still works in SR4 like it used to in SR2). Can't forget about Attribute spells that raise your Body, Willpower, & Drain attribute.

Think about it. All you need is an active Pain Editor and enough hits to ensure you have at least 1 box of Physical left after taking the drain.

[crizh]

I think that by the time you have a Magic of 12 (unless your a Nosferatu...) this whole discussion is moot. Combat with Force 12 spirits is going to be just another day at the office....

[Tarantula]

Shiloh brings up a good point, even if you let your summoner ice herself alone you aren't safe. Why does she want a ( Force 12 ) monster anyways?

How aren't you safe? I rather doubt the spirit would hold and torture the summoner just to get her friends who had nothing to do with the summoning or binding of the spirit. Even if it did, how does it know who her friends are, unless it learns mind probe or something, its kinda at her whim still. She could tell it the landlord is her best friend, and boom, no more landlord. Tell it a lonestar detective she got arrested once was her buddy from high school, and boom, suddenly lonestar is hunting down this spirit too.

[masterofm]

It gets 24 dice for judge intent.... I think it will know when you are lying to it.

[Ravor]

Tarantula you are talking about a living Mana Field that is almost as smart as a Great Dragon who is very likely to have the Search Power, and thanks to the mental link all it has to do is get the poor slitch to think about her team to be able to find them.

If I were on her team I wouldn't want to take the chance that the spirit wouldn't decide to make an example of everyone the Mage even remotely cares about.

[Tarantula]

And you'd let it use that with no penalty? When it probably deals with metahumans as seldomly as possible? Why would it be able to call you on lying?

Besides, most shadowrunners don't really care terribly about their team. Not as much as say, family. So why would the spirit go after the team again? Who had nothing to do with its summoning or binding?

[Stahlseele]

@Rasumichin "Boni" is covered about half way down. It's been linked in this forum before, but yes, it is false. As a rule of thumb, if adding an "s" or "es" sounds good, it's right, and it's probably wrong to try something else.

over here, in germany, boni is actually considered to be the correct plural of bonus O.o

[Ravor]

Considering that the spirit in question is either a powerful and ancient being with wisdom of the ages OR a living Mana Field that is formed in part by the Mage's own mind you bet your ass it can use it's nearly Great Dragon IQ to interact with metahumanity as it sees fit.

*Edit*

AS for why it would burn the team, because most Mages who are crazy enough to try such a stupid stunt in the first place are going to be more intune with the happenings of the Shadows then some newscast. Of course said the lives of the Mages family are forfit as well if the Spirit is inclined to be vengeful.

[Rasumichin]

@Rasumichin "Boni" is covered about half way down. It's been linked in this forum before, but yes, it is false. As a rule of thumb, if adding an "s" or "es" sounds good, it's right, and it's probably wrong to try something else.

I stand corrected.

@ Stahlseele : yes, it is a widespread plural form in German, which is why i used it in the first place.
I looked it up in Duden vol. 5 (that's the one for loan words) after reading the linked article and it lists Boni only as an alternative plural, with the standard forms being Bonusse and even the standard English plural Bonusses (which sounds kinda out of place if it appears within a German sentence), as it is indeed an English loan word with Latin origins, not one that was borrowed from latin correctly.
From a prescriptive point of view, it would be incorrect.

I'm now going to hit the entire academic community in Germany over the head with my thesaurus.

But before that :

In regards to this thing going free . . . I pray the GM doesn't choose this path. I don't remember SR4 making any note of going free when it talks about uncontrolled spirits, but free spirits are mostly covered in SM. What is the difference between a free spirit and a merely uncontrolled spirit? Might any uncontrolled spirit choose to go free after a botched or fatal binding? Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

There are rules in Street Magic (p. 105 the German edition, at the beginning of the free spirits chapter), which come down to the fact that it is certainly possible that this thing will go free.

If you don't want to leave the decision up to GM fiat, you roll an Edge (3) test for the spirit.
If it succeeds, it goes free and gets an Edge attribute of 1, increased by 1 for each net success.
Modify by -4 for unbound spirits and by +2 if the spirit has an intense or noteworthy relationship to metahumanity.
In the latter case, the spirit can use Edge for the test.

[Shiloh]

And you'd let it use that with no penalty? When it probably deals with metahumans as seldomly as possible? Why would it be able to call you on lying?

Besides, most shadowrunners don't really care terribly about their team. Not as much as say, family. So why would the spirit go after the team again? Who had nothing to do with its summoning or binding?

You're assuming that the spirit is driven by pragmatic motives. Who knows what the spirit will want to do? I'm sure that the Tradition of the Conjurer and the status of the relationship between the Conjurer and her teammates (which seems likely to be close, since one teammember at least is prepared to consider significant effort to rescue the madwoman from her own folly) will be able to shed some light on what the likely behaviour of the failed-to-be-bound spirit will be, but we don't have that info. At the moment, we're talking about "damage control" and I merely offered the possibility for consideration that prevention may be better than cure.

[Tarantula]

Considering that the spirit in question is either a powerful and ancient being with wisdom of the ages OR a living Mana Field that is formed in part by the Mage's own mind you bet your ass it can use it's nearly Great Dragon IQ to interact with metahumanity as it sees fit.

*Edit*

AS for why it would burn the team, because most Mages who are crazy enough to try such a stupid stunt in the first place are going to be more intune with the happenings of the Shadows then some newscast. Of course said the lives of the Mages family are forfit as well if the Spirit is inclined to be vengeful.

Again, why wouldn't it just horribly slaughter the summoner, and possibly his family? Why kill his team? Is it going to also kill the clerk he buys his soybucks every morning from? How about that nextdoor neighbor who loaned him sugar that one time? What makes the team any better for killing that any other schmoe?

[Ravor]

AS for why it would burn the team, because most Mages who are crazy enough to try such a stupid stunt in the first place are going to be more intune with the happenings of the Shadows then some newscast.

Boldface Added...

[Tarantula]

And that means what exactly?

Great, you mage is "intune with the happenings of the Shadows". What motivation is this to the spirit to mess with the mage's team, who had nothing to do with the summoning or binding, and if they're teammates with a mage who can summon a force 12 spirit, might be able to defend themselves?

[Ravor]

It means that if the spirit wants to send a message to other half-scans about the perils of summoning vengeful Gods into this world killing the mage's team, fixer, talismonger, ect is an excellant way to get the message across. As for being able to defend themselves ... bah ... a being with nearly Great Dragon IQ is not likely to engauge in "hulk smash", it is going to track down and ambush the team on it's own terms, and in a world of eggshells with sledgehammers that will lead to a dead team rather quickly.

As for defending themselves, hells, this thread has shown that even if the Runners are the one's doing to ambushing taking down a ( Force 12 ) Godling is tricky, imagine for a moment if the spirit got to pick the battlefield, ect...

Best just to geek the fragging slitch beforehand.

[Tarantula]

And why would it want to do that? Whether or not it slaughters a whole pile of people won't ensure it won't get summoned again. It knows that.

[Jaid]

ok, first off, if the spirit goes free or uncontrolled, there is no mental link to the summoner anymore. so it isn't going to track anyone or anything by it's link to the summoner.

secondly, if the team had absolutely nothing to do with the summoning then how does it help to 'make an example' of them. if the team is not there helping, the spirit should not care. otherwise, as has been said, it may as well just go and kill random people. unless the spirit has a reason to hate metahumanity as a whole, it's not going to start chasing down people and killing them for no good reason. in all probability, it will have far better things to do than chasing down people it has absolutely no reason to care about.

now if the team had agreed to assist the summoning in some way, that's another thing. but why on earth would the spirit (witch, as has been noted many times, has a very high logic attribute) be dumb enough to punish people for *not* helping in the effort to bind it?

[Rasumichin]

If the spirit goes free, it will most likely leave an imprint on the site of its summoning that can be used to deduce its true name.
We don't know about the spirit's motivation, but we can be relatively certain it wouldn't want that, right?


So, what would be the best way to avoid this?

First of all, it should find out if anybody else knows about the plans to summon a Force 12 spirit and might visit the site of the ritual.
If not advised explicitly against this, it might have already used its mental link to this end as soon as it was summoned, to take precautions for the case that the pesky mortal screws up the binding ritual.

Then, it would be best if it can hide all links to the ritual site and to itself, making it as hard as possible for anyone to find the place of its liberation.

Killing people the mage knew would only make sense if this would decrease the spirit's chance of enslavement- and in many cases, it wouldn't serve this end.

[Ravor]

I disagree Jaid, the stories of a ( Force 12 ) Spirit wiping out everyone who works with any mage foolish enough to try to summon it will help ensure that the next mage who tells his team that he is going to try to summon a ( Force 12 ) Godling gets enlighted to the dangers of doing so thanks to a Predator IV and the new hole in his head. And the Spirit is smart enough to realize it.

As for the mental link being broken when the spirit becomes uncontroled/free, hmm, perhaps, although that isn't the way I play it, RAW seems cloudy on the issue unless I've missed something.

[Tarantula]

Uhh, and why does this spirit care about that ones summoning? Its not like they're just chilling in the metaplanes with each other. Most likely, he'd realize that just like himself, the other spirit can whoopass the team who summoned him on his own.

Again, just because it wipes out some of the mages buddies, doesn't mean anything. The spirit knows it won't stop idiots from trying, and the spirit also knows it could just go about its business instead of risking a fight with some people who weren't even involved with it.

Why again, should it go after that team, instead of after any mage powerful enough to summon a force 12 spirit. That'd stop it from happening, if that was the goal. Killing the mage that summoned it would too. Killing the team? Doesn't do jack shit, especially if the rest of the team isn't magical.

[crizh]

there is no mental link to the summoner anymore. so it isn't going to track anyone or anything by it's link to the summoner.

When did this link become some sort of irresistible Mind Probe?

Did I miss a meeting?

[Ravor]

The spirit may or may not care, but you are wrong if you think that a sammy won't be more invested in making sure that the mage he runs with doesn't try something stupid like summoning a Godling if he has heard stories about what happens to the teams of such mages.