OK, I'm ready to bind a force 12 spirit., Now how do we kill it if it goes free? Options

[darthmord]

Hmm, Mana Static and Summoning. I'd have to be at that table to watch that episode. Sounds like quality entertainment.

[Tarantula]

Considering that people here have been discussing a Force 12 Mana Static spell to kill the spirit, I figured mentioning a force 11 wouldn't be a hassle. My point is basically that rather than waiting until someone blows the Binding roll and then trying to kill the spirit, it's better to just not fail at the Binding.

An any event, from my understanding of the spell, the results are cumulative. So, if you throw two different Mana Static spells, they combine with whatever background count is in the area, and the total equals the new background count. So, you can cast a Force 5 and a Force 6 to get the equivalent of a Force 11.

Now, it's not that I'm actually recommending that you use this trick. However, it does work. Since this whole thread is a theoretical exercise, we should make sure we cover all the bases. While ending up on "the naughty list for life" seems a bit excessive, I do agree that the next few spirits you summon or bind are going to be spending Edge to resist you. I'd say that you'd be applying lips to posteriors in order to fix things.

Uh, no, that doesn't work.

You cast a force 6 mana static. Fine, force 6 background count. Other mage casts a force 5 mana static in the middle of that, sucks the extra drain, and his force 5 mana static instantly poofs due to being reduced to 0 force by the force 6 mana static.

[crizh]

Uh, no, that doesn't work.

You cast a force 6 mana static. Fine, force 6 background count. Other mage casts a force 5 mana static in the middle of that, sucks the extra drain, and his force 5 mana static instantly poofs due to being reduced to 0 force by the force 6 mana static.

Frankly my dislike of Mana Static is a whole other thread. You're right though and if you did it the other way around the second Force 6 spell would be reduced to Force 1 for a total of....

...Force 6.

So, sod all point trying that then.

Personally I think Mana Static should be restricted to 6 hits which is the maximum Background Count a Domain can have.

I suppose you could achieve this by simply changing the spell to Hits/2 for the Rating of the BC it generates.

[Tarantula]

Frankly my dislike of Mana Static is a whole other thread. You're right though and if you did it the other way around the second Force 6 spell would be reduced to Force 1 for a total of....

...Force 6.

So, sod all point trying that then.

Personally I think Mana Static should be restricted to 6 hits which is the maximum Background Count a Domain can have.

I suppose you could achieve this by simply changing the spell to Hits/2 for the Rating of the BC it generates.

Even fully twinked out, spellcasting 7 (+2 spec) +2 mentor spirit, +6 power focus, +6 magic = 23 dice for casting. The only way you're raising that, is slowly initiating and raising magic/your focus.

Thats 7 hits on average, I don't think force 10-12 mana statics getting 10-12 hits is going to be a common occurance without edge, in which case they're using EDGE to do it.

[crizh]

Precisely, 11 hits is hard work.

Although you forgot Aid Sorcery/Ally Spirits...

[WeaverMount]

For getting your hits there is also ritual magic.

* * *

Running out of services = sending the thing home. It is not uncontrolled at that point. My question is merely if the binding is really truly successful if you passed out while binding. If you kill an opposing mage with a bound spirit present, that spirit goes uncontrolled, yes? So the question is one of success or not during binding, not whether or not it remains bound.
[/stealth edit]

An uncontrolled
spirit owes no services to the magician (the
connection between them is severed) and is
free to act as it wishes within the limits of
its power.
Most uncontrolled spirits will attack the
magician who attempted to bind it,

So here we have the RAW stating that spirits with no tasks are very likely to act on this plane, of there own free will, without services.

[kzt]

There is the line under Sapience: "Awakened sapient critters are capable of all magical
tasks and follow the same rules for magic as normal characters."

So I'd argue that a force 12 spirit that a PC summons gets to do things like use his 12 dice of counterspelling to protect himself. And since he gets 24 dice to perceive the spell...

But I'm just mean.

[Tarantula]

You can't counterspell a mana static. And not all spirits know counterspelling.

[kzt]

Yes you can. It doesn't affect you if you do. Notice the bit about multiple targets affected at once, which means it's an area effect spell. Which is also what the example shows.

Plus you can then dispel the effect.

[Tarantula]

Yes you can. It doesn't affect you if you do. Notice the bit about multiple targets affected at once, which means it's an area effect spell. Which is also what the example shows.

Plus you can then dispel the effect.

You can't dispell a mana static, as you are not the target of it.

You could try to dispell it after they cast it, but then, as a spirit, with this example, you're force 12 reduced to 1, and as such, get screwed. (Of course, you could just walk the 11 meters out of the circle, and own their face, but by then, you're bound.)

[kzt]

Your are not the "target" of the manaball in the example either. It's an area effect spell.

[Tarantula]

Your are not the "target" of the manaball in the example either. It's an area effect spell.

You are the target of the manaball, as it targets anyone located within its area.

Mana static however targets the area, not the people within it.

[crizh]

Mana static however targets the area, not the people within it.

More specifically it targets the Mana in the Area.

[Cain]

You can't dispel a permanent spell, and Mana Static is a permanent spell. Also, you can't dispel a background count, although you could Cleanse it. I don't think many spirits have that power, though.

[Tarantula]

You can't dispel a permanent spell, and Mana Static is a permanent spell. Also, you can't dispel a background count, although you could Cleanse it. I don't think many spirits have that power, though.

You can still dispell it while its being sustained for its permanent effect.

[Cain]

You can still dispell it while its being sustained for its permanent effect.

So you just don't bring the spirit in until it's permanent. Put the spirit on standby, cast the spell, then call it.

[kzt]

And the spirit appears behind you. It's not stupid.

technically you can't make it go into a mana static until it is bound. "A bound spirit can be forced to harm itself to further the magician’s ends—something no living being willingly suffers." And a mana static definitely harms it.

[Cain]

And the spirit appears behind you. It's not stupid.

technically you can't make it go into a mana static until it is bound. "A bound spirit can be forced to harm itself to further the magician’s ends—something no living being willingly suffers." And a mana static definitely harms it.

That's debatable. I've heard of people summoning force 5 spirits of man, and making them overcast a force 10 manaball. That harms the spirit as well, but it doesn't need to be bound first.

[Shiloh]

That's debatable. I've heard of people summoning force 5 spirits of man, and making them overcast a force 10 manaball. That harms the spirit as well, but it doesn't need to be bound first.

Perhaps the games where that's happened haven't decided that the corrollary of "bound spirits can be forced" is "unbound spirits cannot be induced". You could argue either way.

[Wasabi]

It seems to be that using an Edge to do something near impossible could easily require a generic build (as you put it) to have to spend Edge to not die from binding it, Edge to attack it successfully, and Edge to resists its attacks.

A generic build has, oh... lets say 5 willpower. The F12 spirit throws 24 dice for things like Fear and Confusion. Yeah, F6 wards wont save you from that.

Banishing wont work. If it went free then it gains the Banishing Resistance of all free spirits and rolls 24 dice to resist banishing. That means since Banishing causes 2xhits in Drain [BBB p180] that each banishing attempt will cause the banisher to have to, on average, resist 16S. That generic build would then pass the heck OUT without Edge and with Edge be a few boxes away from passing out on average.

Given the scenario you painted ("Generic Build") its not possible. A twink build (Street Sam with Laser or a Main Gain from Arsenal for example) could do it but those aren't the mage and those aren't generic.

[Wasabi]

You can't dispel a permanent spell, and Mana Static is a permanent spell.

As an aside I never realized how 4e nerfed Permanent spells: BBB, p195:
"The time required to make a spell’s effects permanent is equal to twice the Drain Value in Combat Turns."

Its not based on the drain taken, its based off the base drain VALUE. Wow...

[The Jopp]

As an aside I never realized how 4e nerfed Permanent spells: BBB, p195:
"The time required to make a spell�€™s effects permanent is equal to twice the Drain Value in Combat Turns."

Its not based on the drain taken, its based off the base drain VALUE. Wow...

Considering that a F6 Mana static would at most take 42 seconds that isn't very much since most permanent spells arent cast in combat...

[WeaverMount]

Banishing wont work. If it went free then it gains the Banishing Resistance of all free spirits and rolls 24 dice to resist banishing. That means since Banishing causes 2xhits in Drain [BBB p180] that each banishing attempt will cause the banisher to have to, on average, resist 16S. That generic build would then pass the heck OUT without Edge and with Edge be a few boxes away from passing out on average.

uncontrolled is not the same thing as free! You don't banish uncontrolled spirits you summon at the them.

[Tarantula]

And the spirit appears behind you. It's not stupid.

technically you can't make it go into a mana static until it is bound. "A bound spirit can be forced to harm itself to further the magician’s ends—something no living being willingly suffers." And a mana static definitely harms it.

Indeed. It does have a 12 log/int. Its smarter than to just show up willy nilly in a huge mana void.

[crizh]

Indeed. It does have a 12 log/int. Its smarter than to just show up willy nilly in a huge mana void.

[cough]

warp

[/cough]