OK, I'm ready to bind a force 12 spirit., Now how do we kill it if it goes free? Options

[CanRay]

Find out what you can bribe the Free Spirit in, and get it in great quantities.

"OK guys, the Spirit wants Pixie Sticks. Lots and lots of Pixie Sticks!" "Well, we have one Pixie." "No... The sugary snack food." "Oh..."

[Stahlseele]

*looks around*
either everybody missed the comment about first binding lower force spirit to boost up before summoning big bad or everybody discarded it as being too something else O.o

[Muspellsheimr]

I will look for a rules quote tomorrow (assuming I remember), but my understanding is that, by RAW, the only time you are considered to have no chance of success is if your Dice Pool is reduced to 0 or less. Basically, if your Dice Pool > 0, you can Burn Edge for a Critical Success.

As for an easy & effective way to kill a Force 12 Spirit, that any character should be able to use - a White Rabbit. Seriously, only Holy Hand Grenades can stop a White Rabbit.

[crizh]

If they spend even one Edge on the test

You're only allowed to spend one point of Edge on any test. As far as I'm concerned you can spend Edge to get extra dice and activate the rule of six or you can burn a point for a Critical Success. Not both. Therefore you're hits are limited by you're dice pool, putting hard limits on what is and is not possible.

[crizh]

the only time you are considered to have no chance of success is if your Dice Pool is reduced to 0 or less.

That's a Long Shot Test you're thinking of.

[Cain]

You're only allowed to spend one point of Edge on any test. As far as I'm concerned you can spend Edge to get extra dice and activate the rule of six or you can burn a point for a Critical Success. Not both. Therefore you're hits are limited by you're dice pool, putting hard limits on what is and is not possible.

By RAW, spending Edge and burning it are two separate things. You can only spend Edge once per roll, but you can burn it as often as you like (there's just no need). You can even burn Edge when your Edge pool is zero; the stat is considered separate from the pool. For example, when you have to make an Edge test, you don't roll your remaining Edge pool, you roll your full stat.

[crizh]

By RAW, spending Edge and burning it are two separate things.

In my opinion that's slicing it pretty thin. The intent is to stop you using Edge twice on the same test. Spending Edge, screwing up and then Burning Edge to pull your ass out of the fire seems a bit abusive to me.

[Rasumichin]

*looks around*
either everybody missed the comment about first binding lower force spirit to boost up before summoning big bad or everybody discarded it as being too something else O.o

Spirits don't assist in conjuring tasks AFAIK.
They'd be useful to bump up your drain stats by sustaining buff spells, but that's it.
Directly, they aid sorcery tests only.

[Muspellsheimr]

The only time the RAW states you cannot succeed in a test is if your Dice Pool for that test is 0 or less. Therefor, if your Dice Pool > 0, you are considered to have a chance of success on any test. If you have a chance for success, you may Burn a point of Edge for an automatic Critical Success.

If your Dice Pool = 0 or less, you cannot Burn an Edge for a Critical Success. You can, however, use a point of Edge for a Long Shot test.

Also, I would like to point out that Burning reduces your Edge Attribute by 1. Using reduces your current Edge by 1. If you have an Edge Attribute of 5, with 2 current Edge remaining, you may Burn 2 points of Edge, reducing your Attribute to 3, but still have 2 uses remaining - Burning does not directly affect your current Edge.

Burning Edge & Using Edge are two separate things. You may use Edge once per test. There is no limit to how often you may Burn Edge, excepting your Edge score.

[Muspellsheimr]

In my opinion that's slicing it pretty thin. The intent is to stop you using Edge twice on the same test. Spending Edge, screwing up and then Burning Edge to pull your ass out of the fire seems a bit abusive to me.

By RAW, you may reduce your Dice Pool to 0 or less via Called Shots, environmental conditions, etc, then use Edge for a Long Shot test. You now have a chance of success, and may Burn Edge for a Critical Success. Using & Burning Edge are two separate things, and do not limit each others uses.

I have actually used that once before - and a good thing I did, otherwise it would likely have been a TPK. Called Shot 4, Called Shot bypass Armor, Long Narrow Burst, Critical Success to hit = Dead Sniper.

[crizh]

Using & Burning Edge are two separate things

I think I'll stick with my opinion that the second is a sub-set of the other.

Burning is more extreme than Spending. If you can't spend and then spend another you sure as hell can't spend and then burn....

[Muspellsheimr]

Burning Edge also has significantly more extreme penalties than using.

Using Edge is a temporary reduction in your available uses.
Burning Edge is a permanent reduction in your available uses, and reduces the bonus dice from future uses.

There is no reason to limit Burning Edge based on when/how you Use Edge.

[masterofm]

Generally just because you summon it does not mean it is going to straight up try and kill your party. It might try and kill the mage who summoned it (or just might kill the mage through overflow of trying to bind/summon it.) Not all spirits will straight up attack your party, but if you try and kill it you are asking for some serious hurt to be brought down upon the party. The spirit might just dissipate, or say to you that it wants you to do it a favor, or might just fly out the window. If you are loaded up to kill it during the binding ritual a LOGIC 12 INTUITION 12 spirit will know what is going on that you guys are here to dissipate it if the binding fails. Spirits do not like being dissipated as it hurts like a mother lover. As a GM I would rule it would roll edge to resist binding as it does not want to be used by a bunch of piss poor runners who think they can bind it to even a single service.

Trying to bring the hurt might be the biggest way you can get the hurt put on you.

[CanRay]

General rule of thumb. Never summon something bigger than your head.

[Cain]

In my opinion that's slicing it pretty thin. The intent is to stop you using Edge twice on the same test. Spending Edge, screwing up and then Burning Edge to pull your ass out of the fire seems a bit abusive to me.

How abusive it is depends on the player and GM in question. However, the legality of it is pretty clear. The BBB makes a distinction between spending Edge, and burning it.

As Muspellsheimr pointed out, burning Edge carries its own penalties with it, so it's not something to be done lightly. I really don't see anyone burning Edge very often, even without additional restrictions. However, when faced with 20P Drain, that's pretty much your best option.

[apollo124]

On Topic.

A Mine.

Find, drill or Shape (Material) a shaft 600m deep/long. Create a chamber at the end big enough for your spirit. Lay a fibre-optic line to the outside and then fill in the shaft.

The mage can use mage-sight goggles (and possibly a telescope) to Summon the Spirit into the chamber and Bind it there. If he mucks up, cap the fibre, and leave.

Pressing through the Earth from there is going to be an Extended Magic + Charisma (600, 30 mins) Test.

It'll take over two days to escape assuming it doesn't get lost...

Only bad part of this is the Metaplanar shortcut that spirits can take. It's just a short hop into the metaplanes and then back to our world.

[Da9iel]

Well, firstly I must apologize for starting this thread before an unanticipated weekend away from technology. Secondly I must say I am overwhelmed by your outpouring of good ideas.

I will start near the end with a thoughtful post that colored my re-reading of each idea. masterofm: I like your thoughts. I take from that the idea that the conjurer should go somewhere remote and alone and do nothing to put down her spirit if it should go free. The spirit may be merciful when it sees no threat. We can just look back as far as Deus to see what a powerful being does when it feels untrusted. Perhaps one task spirit with first aid would be left alone to stabilize and treat the dying conjurer, or perhaps she should die in her folly and allow the Force 12 spirit to return to its astral home to play Texas Hold 'em. On the other hand, a Logic 12, Intuition 12 being must surely understand why a weak being would take precautions when begging from it the services that only binding can produce. Any little mortal had damn well better fear it! After all, the book does describe spirits as being quite vengeful when going free in such circumstances. Perhaps we should not trust in the good graces of the mighty being after all. None-the-less I will keep in mind the way the relationship between conjurer and spirit could be tainted by our precautions.

I see 4 general ideas coming from the community. I will address them in this order: 1) Conjure it from inside a bomb. 2) Bad-ass adept. 3) Bad-ass caster. 4) Big-ass gun/stick-n-shock

1) Put the F12 lodge inside a bunker coated with explosives on the inside.
While at first I liked this idea despite the cost of building the large bunker, it has several problems. The one of greatest concern to our dying conjurer is escaping the enclosure before it goes boom. Several bound spirits engaging the F12 as proposed by Adarael might slow it down. Powerful mana barriers and/or wards especially of the offensive variety (thank you Rasumichin) might also help greatly. Unfortunately, our being thrives with no physical presence. There is no way to get our conjurer out before the super-genius decides it should disappear into the astral. God help us if it spends its time busting through the wards/barriers and rests up before seeking justice. After reading masterofm's thoughts, I also decided this would create the worst working relationship even in the event of a successful binding. Sorry, but this one is declined.
A subset of this one is the conjure-into-a-deep-hole-through-fiberoptics idea. Our (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) very evil gm has decided that this won't work.

2) Bad-ass adept.
We currently have no-one on the team capable of going toe-to-toe with a Force 12 spirit of anything. Our fixer is a fairly well connected guy, but I'm not sure we can afford to pay a world-class combatant to risk death even if we could find one. Our conjurer is a little ahead of her team in this effort. I will keep looking.

3) Bad-ass spells.
This one could work. A little edge is not too much to ask a hired spell slinger nor teammate for a 3 second job--especially one that may or may not even be needed. Unfortunately the spirit has edge too. Lots of it as noted by De Badd Ass. Probably more of it than everyone put together unless we hire lots of spell slingers. This also limits us to spirits without Magical Guard. If we get a spellslinger that can punch through 12 conterspelling dice and edge we're left with the "I'm not sure we can afford to pay a world-class combatant to risk death even if we could find one" problem. This can be helped with aid-sorcery services as The Jopp mentioned (indirectly), but I fear it won't be enough.

4) Big-ass gun/stick-n-shock
These ones that at first looked least likely and least useful will probably be the ones I back. I haven't fully decided between one big gun that depends on surprise so the F12 doesn't dodge and many many stick-n-shock guns that whittle down its dodge. Unfortunately it may take a ton of shots to whittle down a reaction of 12 and edge of 12. All this before it gets a chance to go astral. I think the mighty mana static spell is a wonderful addition to either one of these strategies.

Now, some tangents. While there are several ideas to weaken the spirit, I stuck with mana-static. Running away is very problematic with a being that can pop into existence inside your car. A high background count that is close enough to escape into but far enough away that it doesn't foul the conjuring site might be hard to find. Unless it was high background from happy happy joy joy stuff I would also fear what kind of spirit we would get.

Similarly there is conjuring within a background count. While this was not suggested it might be a good way to limit drain. (Depending on the GM's ruling of drain. Is it actual Force x 2 or modified Force x 2 that it rolls?) Unfortunately I will now shy away from this due to masterofm's cautions about the spirits attitude. We do not want a monkey's paw situation with our big genie.

FAB III: I need to re-read (and will do this in the morning) but doesn't FAB III split when it gets around Force 6? I believe our beast could engage this stuff in astral combat and destroy it. I think it would survive the FAB's attacks. In the end it's no more than a offensive ward.

Burning Edge: Our bastard GM has made a very limiting but agreed upon ruling that burning edge provides 4 automatic successes and may be stacked with spending edge. This may not be enough to live through an unlucky roll. Burning edge is expensive (in karma) and I'm not sure how you'd write that into a contract for hired help. It's quite a lot to ask of your teammates. Even the conjurer wants to avoid it if she can. (She's a bit karma hungry. Must be saving up for an ally.)

Personal responses:
Riverbane mentioned a clever strategy of binding it 12 hours and 2 seconds before sundown/sunup. While I like this, my understanding is that the binding can be successful, but if the mage gets knocked unconscious, it goes free. It doesn't have to go home when the sun breaks the horizon anymore.

Stahlseele: Unfortunately spirits only add their force to physical attributes. It is not useful for conjuring nor drain, and I don't want to put our conjurer in the position of having to withstand area effect attacks even with a greatly boosted body.

apollo124: I'm afraid we might not have time to die on a RATING 12 astral quest what with the beast clawing and tearing at our unconscious bodies. As for raising magic to 12? Our conjurer is impatient. (Though Rasumichin's suggestion of the adrenalin pump would help immensely in that case).

Awards:
While many people had wonderful and helpful advice for surviving the drain, that was not the subject of this topic. I can give no awards for those suggestions.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Rasumichin: You have been disqualified for using the false plural "boni." Sorry.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Coldan: You get an award for speedily suggesting mana static + sniper. Simple. Elegant. No massive explosions.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sunnyside: Your idea of drones with stick-n-shock wins the lowest skill award. Drones have no skills per se. Quite the welcoming committee.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ryu: I think your one big (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 50,000 gun might be cheaper than all the drones we'd need for something with that much reaction and edge. It's all good if we can give it to a teammate too.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) masterofm: bonus award for your thoughtful step back from the whole process. Do-nothing may be the best thing.

Honorable mentions:
Heath Robinson for the biggest boom.
Jaid for a sound understanding of the mechanics.

[Cain]

Burning Edge: Our bastard GM has made a very limiting but agreed upon ruling that burning edge provides 4 automatic successes and may be stacked with spending edge. This may not be enough to live through an unlucky roll. Burning edge is expensive (in karma) and I'm not sure how you'd write that into a contract for hired help. It's quite a lot to ask of your teammates. Even the conjurer wants to avoid it if she can. (She's a bit karma hungry. Must be saving up for an ally.)

Okay, even with that house rule, you should definitely be thinking about burning Edge. If she actually gets hit with 20P Drain, odds are she's going to go past her overflow instantly. The only way to survive this is to burn Edge, and invoke the Escape Certain Death clause.

[Da9iel]

Very nice but it does not answer the topic's question. I'm more interested in creative ways to kill things than ways to avoid the need. That's the reason I liked the explodo-bunker so much.

[Muspellsheimr]

I told you - you just need a White Rabbit. It will rip the spirit apart. Of course, you may not be able to control the White Rabbit; keep a Holy Hand Grenade on hand just in case.

Stahlseele: Unfortunately spirits only add their force to physical attributes. It is not useful for conjuring nor drain, and I don't want to put our conjurer in the position of having to withstand area effect attacks even with a greatly boosted body.

The reason behind this is not to increase your Drain Resistance, but to increase your Physical Damage Track / Physical Damage Overflow, significantly increasing your chances of survival.

Let us assume for now you have a Body 3 character. 10 Physical renders you unconscious, 14 Physical renders you dead.
Now, possess this character with a Force 5 spirit. 12 Physical renders you unconscious, 21 Physical renders you dead.
Your chances of remaining awake have increased, your chances of surviving have gone up significantly, even if the damage you actually take was not altered.

[Krule]

Personally, I calll them Vorpal Rabbits, sense I'm not sure they have to be white, and they seem to have the ability to instantly cut off heads and limbs.

On a more serious note, If your not a possession tradition, is the possession option even avalible?

[kzt]

On a more serious note, If your not a possession tradition, is the possession option even available?

Sure, if you know the right people. And I'm sure it cheaper than hiring a Magic 8 guy to fight a force 12 spirit head to head.

[Muspellsheimr]

When humanity falls, squirrels shall inherit the earth.

[crizh]

Only bad part of this is the Metaplanar shortcut that spirits can take. It's just a short hop into the metaplanes and then back to our world.

If I recall correctly you can only take the Metaplanar shortcut to somewhere you've been before. If you've only ever been in the dark, windowless chamber hundreds of meters below the Earth the only place you can go is home.

[crizh]

A subset of this one is the conjure-into-a-deep-hole-through-fiberoptics idea. Our (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) very evil gm has decided that this won't work.

Shame, I kinda liked that one.

Stick-n-Shock Drones is pretty good. Suddenly I'm liking a warehouse with a rail system fitted inside and dozens of Rail Drones.

The Ares Sentinel R is one of my all time faves. Cheap, legal, comes with a weapon mount, System Rating 4, can't be easily hacked and doesn't suffer from recoil.

Cracked Programs are cheap so Clearsight 6 (Opti 2), Targetting 6 (Opti 2), Tac-Soft 4 for starters. AK-97's are cheap, which makes smartlinking them fairly cheap.

Total cost, less than 4000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) each including Ammo.

Although, technically, you're on thin ice with Stick-n-Shock. It still has 12 points of Hardened Armour against electrical attacks so you're going to have to use Called Shots and get three net hits to do any damage. A Logic 12 Spirit may well realize that it can just ignore such attacks from Drones that only have 10 Dice to start with...

Hmmm.

Smacking it down with Mana Static would certainly make your life massively easier. Although 'an uncontrolled Spirit may be brought back under control with a Summoning Test.' (BBB p180) so it might just be a lot easier to have a second Conjurer standing by in case the first screws up.

Re-Summoning it avoids the second pitfall I was going to mention.

If your GM is evil, which apparently he is, a Force 12 Spirit that knows your going to Disrupt it if it goes Uncontrolled will try to go Free when it becomes Uncontrolled. If it does all you've bought yourself is 28 days and the Spirits undying enmity.