 New Shadowrun video game from Microsoft?, Anyone have opinions on this? |
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 Jul 19 2006, 07:44 PM
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#126
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957  |
I believe that when people are saying fireball they mean hellblast, as it's been described a few times as a ball of fire, or likened to D&D fireballs. Fireballs of the "works like a bullet" variety would be easy to implement in any game that already had guns.
Do we know what engine they're using? |
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Jul 19 2006, 07:46 PM
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#127
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I misunderstood the particle comment. I was looking at it from a non-code perspective of graphical particles.
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Jul 19 2006, 07:47 PM
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#128
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Umm, that's Flamethrower. Fireball is a ball...of fire. In an area a number of meters across. At least in 3rd and 4th.
The groundwork isn't the issue. There is a long ways to go from groundwork to fitting it into the game. Being able to attach particle effects is only a start of it. You also have make those effects, and make them cool takes a lot of polishing. Then you have to figure out an interface that is smooth. Very smooth because this is a twitch game. They'd have factor it into essense expendatures because that's how they throttle magic. Magic currently is tightly throttled for reasons such as keeping the worm-holing to a dull roar, and limiting of implants. Oh, and casting and shot traveling animations. There is, or should be, a lot of work put into that to get it to look polished during the game. You only get so many things to implement. It is prudent to spend that on spells that do things that weapons don't really do, avoiding the overlap. Otherwise you end up with a direct damage heavy game, typically leading to a lower variety of stategies. EDIT This last part is what I was really trying to get across to you mfb when you decided to throw your hands in the air like you just didn't care. Unfortunately I did convey it rather poorly there. Sorry about that. |
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Jul 19 2006, 08:07 PM
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#129
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
As a programmer I realize it is not that hard. Throwing a fireball is just simply making an instance of a class that will exist in the engine. Now determining if you have the ability to throw it, is quite simple as they outlined it. There will be a mana meter, if you take drain your mana meter goes down. (more of a mana point system than drain)
Its an FPS ... it is more likely that they will have 5-10 different archtypes that you can select from; like choosing a engineer/soldier/leutenant/medic in wolfenstien. Don't get exited about building your own character. They "cyberware" they are showing are going to be more like power-up than embedded cyberware. You will get wings/ enhanced movement/ different vision modes, enhanced targetting etc. In second, fireball was a combat spell ... flamethrower was manipulation. |
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Jul 19 2006, 08:45 PM
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#130
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
But you have to figure out the damage balance per mana click (time effectively). In a multiplayer FPS like this balance is extremely important. Certainly far more important and to tighter tolerances than in pen and paper, for comparison. Since this is a computer game you also don't get the same sort of GM control to compensate for balance design flaws. Although usually whoever sets up the server does get a bit of control customizing the game, usually it is pretty crude control via some toggle options and such. The play of the game revolves around damage/defense over time, and when you put it out there it is like a 1000 of the hardest core powergamers you can imagine stop by your house to play at your table. It has to be extremely robust.
Actually no, you buy implants and spells, along with firearms, piecemeal between rounds. As far as I can tell all avatars are potentially awakened, but they don't come default with any spells.
Yes, those are the kinds of cyberware implants they have in the game. No it's not an extensive list, for the same reason they don't have 30 different spells implemented.
Fireball is Elemental Manipulation too. Turn to page 197 of your SR3 BBB, lefthand column. No worries, I forget that sometimes too. |
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Jul 19 2006, 08:50 PM
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#131
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
I don't play 3rd. Magic changes make me cry. (still on second ed)
I had a mud for several years, so I am well aware of damage calculations and exceptions. Also you can change these in any game that allows modding. It really isn't that hard to get right. I saw that you can buy "cyberware and weapons" between rounds, and heard the strategy of not buying certain weapons at the beginning, but I am wondering if they will still have archtypes. |
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Jul 19 2006, 09:40 PM
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#132
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
That's where I thought Hellfire might be from, I didn't think that was in 3rd which is why I tossed those edition numbers in. Terminology gap filled...as long as you stop calling Flamethrower a Fireball. ;)
So you send the game out and expect people to mod it themselves to get it right? See, that's where the big difference from commercial software comes in. This is a ship it in working order to start with, or you really piss people off. And they should be pissed off. This is true even moreso when you start shipping to consoles, because the culture around PCs is a little more lax even if it is still crappy practice. Oh, and no mods. Primarily because of crossplatform.
That would be metahuman types, which sets your magic level recovery rate, rapid healing rate, and health pool (effectively Body). The rapid healing is Elves only, in my books that's way wierder than the Dwarves magic resistance, to compensate for their really low Body. Might be a few other things too, not sure. |
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Jul 19 2006, 09:49 PM
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#133
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 30-June 06 Member No.: 8,813 |
Wow, you guys are really going at it.
:D |
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Jul 19 2006, 09:50 PM
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#134
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Actually, this is rather tame.
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Jul 19 2006, 09:51 PM
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#135
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The same is true for any weapon. |
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Jul 19 2006, 09:56 PM
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#136
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
That's what I was thinking too. : :love: I don't see a problem with Platinum's last couple posts at all. However I did just notice this one, a bit busy with other things in RL now. I mean Star Wars? WTF? Yah, like in Star Wars you have anything like implant/essense trade-off. :P |
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Jul 19 2006, 09:58 PM
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#137
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
indeed, hyzmarca. like i keep saying, combat spells are no more complex than any other part of the game. adding fireball--or stunball, or powerbolt, or whatever--would make the dev's job a bit longer, but not much more difficult.
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Jul 19 2006, 10:02 PM
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#138
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Absolutely. Outside of their impact/interaction with magic reserves. Which is why minimizing the number of weapons by avoiding overlap is also important. Each weapon should have a markedly different use or strong points. For example having both a Beretta 92 and Glock 17, two 9mm handguns with similar specs, in the weapon list would be bad. Functionality overlap is waste. Waste is time and money and often leads to a poor product through clutter. |
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Jul 19 2006, 10:30 PM
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#139
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
That is not what I was said. I will try it another way. I was saying that game balance is actually quite easy. You work through the numbers on paper. These guys are all veterans, so they have already have the numbers down, then you just tweak. I was not saying that the game should be modded, I was saying that modders tweak the numbers, and that it is very common and easy to balance. The weapon/damage classes are well written, and have many parameters like, weapon speed, rate of fire, accuracy, trajectory, damage strength, damage radius, damage falloff rate ... etc etc etc. You just change the numbers. I agree with you on metatypes. What is looks like with the game, is that they already had game play ideas figured out, before they even looked at how to "skin" or "package" the game. I think people are frustrated that so much of the shadowrun world has been completely ignored as well. Matrix, astral, and conguring. I know they are thinking of adding features in subsequent releases, but it is unlikely, with how volitile the game industry is. |
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Jul 19 2006, 10:52 PM
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#140
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Is that so? No, I very much disagree because there is one thing you are missing, ammo pool. A 9mm, .40 pistol, and a .38 may seem wasteful from one perspective but the different ammunitions provide another element of strategy. The fact that mana pool is split between all spells provides a great deal of strategy because you could use it offensivly or defensivly and there are tradeoffs to both. There is also the quetion of hitscan vs. projectiles. Realisticly, all guns except lasers should be projectile weapons. Direct Combat spells, would be best implemented as hitscan attacks. The difference provides a great deal of stratagy since it is easier to hit an enemy using a hitscan weapon than it is to hit using a projectile weapon. |
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Jul 19 2006, 11:43 PM
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#141
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
The example I gave is two 9mm handguns. But I think you are lost here, because the example you are giving is diverting focus. I very much doubt they have ammo caliber juggling without marked performance difference between weapons. Mostly because that sort of thing would tend to divert from the focus of game of this pace. Not that ammo management is out, but if the difference between two weapons is not functioning specs but ammunition size you then need to have different ammunition sources during the round for that to be relavent. And those sources need to be a key factor in the game strategy. Not saying they couldn't do that, but it is very doubtful. They already have a level location stategy, and if you put that sort of resource point in the level with the idea of it being important you likely don't want to have it avoided or negated by them grabbing a different weapon. To compensate for that they'd have to double up all weapon classes. :eek: That seems a rather inefficent way to bring in a level location strategy.
Realistically this is a game. With the distances involved the 1000ft./sec of handguns and 2500 ft/sec or more of long rifles are typically approximated to a hitscan with no tragectory curves. I'm not expecting a borderline firearms simulator like Operation Flashpoint. Although you could do a Flamethrower/Fileball as a projectile, AKA rocket launcher. But it's still damage centric, and while maybe it'll look cooll it is still eating in the utility spell list design resources. |
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Jul 20 2006, 05:12 AM
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#142
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 8-November 05 From: Toronto, Ontario - Canada Member No.: 7,934 |
But nobody would even care about the developers making 'artistic alterations' to the game canon if the changes they were making wasn't incredibly fucking stupid. People want fireballs because they are cool, and because the gameplay differences between playing a cyber-monster and a combat mage would be intriguing. People don't want mystical healing trees because it's about the stupidest fucking idea ever concieved. Plus, who the fuck wants to play a game where the object is to capture a magical stick? That's just dumb. The changes that they did make to canon seems more out of spite to the fanbase than anything else. Changing everything was completely not necessary. The big evil corporation could have just as easily been Aztechnology, or Ares, or Renraku. Making one up adds nothing to the setting, and niether does the removal of actual shadowrunners. Come on, if they are going to keep anything, it should be the game's namesake. I can totaly understand gutting shit out for gameplay considerations, but reinventing the entire fucking world, and then making the game mechanics stupid is just FASA Interactive pulling a Uwe Boll.
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Jul 20 2006, 05:18 AM
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#143
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Magical sticks aren't dumb, just look at Excalibat.
~J |
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Jul 20 2006, 09:10 AM
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#144
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Of course they would. Hell they are. Because, hey, it's 'incredibly fucking stupid' to have elves only born that way while the trolls transformed after birth. Given that that is a very subjective judgement. That is of course just an example. I use it as an example because it is one of a number of things about Shadowrun lore that always struck me as goofy. It would likely strike a lot more Shadowrun players as goofy if it was a distinction that was actually more widely known among casual SR gamers, which it isn't. Hey, I happen to think it would be 'incredibily fucking stupid' to spend limited design resources on creating more ways to do direct ranged damage instead of creating interesting utility combat spells for that combat mage to go up against a cybered up opponent.
Curiously in at least one of the previous computer games, the 'good' one, they don't even call the corp that appears to be Renraku 'Renraku', and that game was set in the part of the timeline where the corp definately existed under that name. Which isn't the case here. That's back when FASA still owned and controlled FASA Interactive. Go figure. |
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Jul 20 2006, 09:14 AM
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#145
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Renraku exists in the FPS. Who do you think makes the gliders? For that matter, so does Fuchi (the cybervision) and Ares (an SMG).
Of course, Renraku didn't exist as such in 2021. But that's a minor triviality. BTW, it really seems like the massive megacorp, RNA, is, for all intents and purposes, the good guys. That's just awesomely awesome. |
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Jul 20 2006, 09:40 AM
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#146
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 8-November 05 From: Toronto, Ontario - Canada Member No.: 7,934 |
There is a huge difference between quirky, arbirary game fluff, and ill-concieved stupidity. Goblinzation is of the quirky fluff variety, Superman dying of cancer is ill-cocieved stupidity. Only one of those ideas got beaten by the retcon stick and is being ignored by fans worldwide because of blatent idiocy.
TREES! You summon trees. Tree summoning! What the fuck is interesting about that? NOTHING! This shit is exactly why I compare FASA Interactive to hacks like Boll- they are either detached from reality, or just plain hate the existing fanbase, and do stupid things to attract a new one.
Oh, mean the terrible, terrible SNES game that everyone hates? The SNES game is a perfect example of a very poorly designed game engine coupled with annoying fetch-quests and tedious 'puzzles' that followed no ryme or reason. |
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Jul 20 2006, 09:41 AM
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#147
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It's for winners Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 523 Joined: 8-February 05 From: Wiltshire with da shooty stuff Member No.: 7,067 |
noo, you can't turn something like SR into a pooter game, how do you get the whole unpredictability of a group of people trying to suss something out? I mean It can't be a first person shooter?
hmm would have to reserve judgement, they did this to Cthuthu and it was rubbish! torz x ;) |
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Jul 20 2006, 11:24 AM
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#148
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Oh I don't like that game. However your claim that everyone hates it is, well, 'incredibly fucking' incorret. Amazing as that may seem. Also amazingly I'm fine with the tree of life. They needed some visual for a stationary healing point. They apparently are going with a jungle motif, having used vines for the Barrier type spell. At worst I'd call it a bit goofy. Like shamanic masks. ;)
In large part CRPGs are esentially book-like in nature. The sandbox style, that costs a fortune to create, is a little more flexibile in that it allows you to at least shuffle the order of the prescripted quests. So they are more like a collection of related short stories. Neither is really the experience of a P&P RPG unless you playing at a table where the GM has prescripted all the events. So would someone want to play such a thing? Maybe it's the moving graphics instead of the handdrawn stationary art? Maybe it's the same people that would like to read a SR book, but at 3 times the cost? Sadly CRPG writing is usually of remarkably poor quality. Or maybe it is people that like, or don't mind being players in heavily railroaded games? Or people that just can't find other players to get a game together at the time they want to play, or ever? |
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Jul 20 2006, 01:37 PM
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#149
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
I for one, don't have a problem with RNA ... The reason is that it is set in Brazil. RNA could be a new AA or AAA corp that is looking to capitalize on something down there (maybe funded/backed by a dragon). I would have preferred Aztenchnology of course.
As for the healing tree and summon tree, those are just totally unnecessary. Why not have a member of your team have healing spells, just like shadowrun. You can have biotech stations, or deployed biokits instead, which would have been a better option. Summoning trees and teleporting ... that violates a very long standing rule in shadowrun, for what end? Just have your movable team spawn/drop off point. All they are doing with summoning trees is ripping off portable spawn beacons that other games integrated, just to say they have it. It might be a good FPS ... just don't call it shadowrun. Anyone else annoyed by regenerating elves? |
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Jul 20 2006, 01:58 PM
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#150
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Healing magic that looks like a tree is not against SR canon. Casters can design the visuals of their spells to look like anything the GM will allow.
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