 How powerful is magic in Shadowrun? |
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 Dec 19 2005, 12:14 AM
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#1
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019  |
As opposed to AD&D. Everyone in AD&D has enough magic items to be talismongers in their own right, and it's common for mid-level mages to toss around bigass fireballs. Does Shadowrun even compare?
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Dec 19 2005, 12:23 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Not really, but then Shadowrun magic is designed to make sense, while D&D was inexpertly ripped from Jack Vance novels. ;)
More seriously, Shadowrun is a very low-powered world compared to any Dungeons & Dragon setting you care to name. There are some magicians with powers comparable to Elminster or a Dragon King, but they're damn few and far between. It's not like Harlequin and Ehran are gonna be squaring off in Seattle and throwing small orbital bodies at one another, because magic has a price in Shaodwrun. Casting a spell can kill you. Or open the way for the Horrors to kill you. |
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Dec 19 2005, 12:27 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: 14-January 05 Member No.: 6,976 |
Things D&D spell casters can do that SR spell casters cannot:
* Bring the dead back to life * Teleport * Alter time Of course, SR spell casters don't need material components (or gesticulation, or speech) to cast spells. In terms of overall power, you can do absurd, fantastic things with both games. As for magic items, since foci require you to pay in karma in order to get any benefit, and because (generally speaking) only awakened characters can use them, magical items are more powerful in D&D. |
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Dec 19 2005, 01:02 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
in SR you're not limited to some stupid "you can only cast soo many spells a day, even if they are all lv 1...."
DnDs magic system never really translated well from novel to game if you ask me. |
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Dec 19 2005, 01:04 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 90 |
I still like how one player I know described the difference to a SR newbie.
D&D mage: (weak whiney voice) "I've cast all my powerful spells and didn't memorize the right spell I need. Now I'm useless since I can't wear armor or use badass weapons and have a measly few hit points and no hit bonus." Shadowrun mage: (pumped-up screaming maniac voice) "FUCK YOU! I can wear as much armor as I want, use any weapon I want, be as tough as the street sam, and I can keep casting spells till I either pass out or die. YEAH!" :rotfl: |
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Dec 19 2005, 01:07 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
The high-end D&D magic is vastly more powerful than what a SR character is ever going to be able to do. On the other hand, the more common magic is a lot more powerful in SR than in D&D - a well designed starting mage is going to be able to cast his bread-and-butter spells an infinite number of times per day, and can summon elementals or spirits that can be extremely dangerous opponents and have an array of useful magical powers of their own, to name just a couple of things. |
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Dec 19 2005, 01:13 AM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
D&D is more appropriately ripped off form Tolkien and Fritz Leiber.
Sure with a real high game players havev lots of magic, but the averge or beginer games the SR spell slinger has a lot of advantages over a D&D mage. They can develop their combat skills as easily as any fighter and are not limited to casting a spell only once before looking for a spell book. In D&D I would play a thief or Ft/Thief almost exclusively. In SR I would play spell slingers almost exclusively. |
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Dec 19 2005, 01:23 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Oh, bull. They ripped far more of Jack Vance for the magic system than they ever ripped anything from Tolkein. |
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Dec 19 2005, 01:29 AM
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#9
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
How? The only magic that got used frequently was Gandalf casting some light off from his staff. The next from that? The infamous "flinging each other around the tower" spellfight between Gandalf and Saruman. Outside of that? There were hardly any spells to note. Nothing that D&D seems to hint at, at least. |
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Dec 19 2005, 02:43 AM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6-October 05 From: Toronto Member No.: 7,819 |
What if Shadowrun magic can't destroy mountains is because the 6th World is just beginning and the mana level is too low?
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Dec 19 2005, 02:50 AM
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#11
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Um... Rephrase that question with some proper grammar.
Hold on, I'll try to translate and guess... "What if Shadowrun magic can't destroy mountains because the 6th World is just beginning and the mana level is too low?" Is that just an errant "is" in there? If so, k... Anyway. Even in ED, you couldn't just pop a mountain. Granted; you could put a city in a bottle, but you had to be really powerful to do so. |
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Dec 19 2005, 03:02 AM
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#12
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
that is unless your a dragon and is packing a ungodly power foci :silly:
you can in theory destroy a mountain in SR, you just have to figure out its barrier rating first :smokin: oh, and lets never forget the great ghost dance... still, the d&d spells pr day system is one of those things that never realy made sense. but the sorceror in 3.x is interesting as a way of "fixing" it. hell, they even fix the spellcasting in armor "problem". atleast one is no longer baned from picking up armor or weapon, its just that the armor gives a spell failure chance and the weapons need a feat ;) hmm, given the de-cyberd technology of SR4, im starting to wonder if not the mage have become even more "uber". no essence cost for smartlink and so on... |
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Dec 19 2005, 03:03 AM
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#13
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
To be fair SR starting characters are far more powerful all-around than anything you can get at level 1 in D&D. They're closer to level 5-7 or so honestly. |
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Dec 19 2005, 03:03 AM
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#14
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Comparing the two games' magic systems is silly. They're nothing like one another. In fact, neither are the games. To get a good feel for either, play a spell caster in both. (Or if you're decent at gleaning feel and ability from just reading it, do that.)
Each system's magic fits well in that particular system. |
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Dec 19 2005, 03:07 AM
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#15
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
IMO I don't think the D&D magic system works that well even in D&D. :P Anyone read Complete Arcane? Check out the new Warlock class in that book; it's a far better sorcerer than the sorcerer. D&D Psionics are better than the D&D arcane magic classes too, IMO, so long as you run with transparency or just outright replace the later with the former.
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Dec 19 2005, 03:45 AM
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#16
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Ah, but are you:
a: Playing D&D to play D&D; not to pick apart its quirks and lack of perfection, but to enjoy the game as D&D or b: Looking at the system as a big theoretical math equation like most DSers seem to look at everything; picking it apart until you can't enjoy it for all the complaining about how it "isn't as good as X or Y"? ;) Personally, I don't play game systems to compare them to other game systems. There are enough games out there that if I don't like something about one (say, if I didn't like the D&D magic system) that I can simply play something I like instead. |
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Dec 19 2005, 03:56 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Not that I would necessarily agree that D&D stole the spells from Tolkien (they did pretty well steal the races), but there was plenty more magic in Tolkein than what you're saying. Keep in mind that there's not just the Lord of the Rings, but the Hobbit, the Silmarillion, and a bunch of other stuff JRR's kid put together from JRR's notes. Even in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, there was lots and lots of used, it's just that it tended to be of the more subtle and indirect variety. Ice storms from unseen foes, speaking to animals, calling the giant eagles, Saruman's bewitching voice, his taking over the King of Rohan, healing Frodo after the encounter with the wraith... there was absolutely tons of magic, it was everywhere. It's just that a lot of it was unseen. There was some overt stuff -- the One Ring's powers, the telekenetic battle of wizards, Gandalf's light blasts, etc -- but by and far, Gandalf preferred to take the subtle route and *guide* the peoples of Middle Earth in their tasks instead of doing the tasks for them. |
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Dec 19 2005, 04:49 AM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I like the D&D magic system a lot... This is in large part because it makes it hard to play a spellcaster well (which a lot of people might consider a flaw, and it sometimes definitely feels that way when you're playing the party tank and the guy running the cleric is making severely suboptimal choices), which means it takes a little planning and a lot of creativity (and good timing) to get the best out of your spells. It's almost like building a deck of Magic cards, then playing with it. Another part I like (but which can also cause problems) is that the spell effects are sometimes pretty idiosyncratic (For example, how many different ways are there that make it harder for people to hit you? AC boosting spells, spells which generate multiple targets, spells which obscure vision, spells which displace the target, spells which blur the target, spells which require a save to attack the target...), which can be a nightmare to keep track of sometimes, but it certainly adds a lot of flavor. In contrast, the D&D Psionic rules (while workable) make the magic too bland and generic for my taste. Which is something I think SR also suffers from to a large degree - characters don't have a lot of spells, and they all tend to produce simple, unspectacular results. |
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Dec 19 2005, 06:49 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
Except you get 8 cards and then you're waiting for the next game. |
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Dec 19 2005, 01:15 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
...and in SR, you don't have to wait for the next game, so you can play the same 5 cards over and over. I didn't say anyone else has to like D&D. Or that D&D magic would work in SR, for that matter - I just don't find SR magicians all that appealing. |
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Dec 19 2005, 03:31 PM
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#21
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Funny, while D&D mages get some wicked firepower compared to SR mages in the end, I still feel like SR magic is overpowered. But then again, in D&D people can also take twenty or thirty arrows to the head and still act normally.
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Dec 19 2005, 03:40 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
I have to say am a real fan of the SR3 magic system.
D&D, AD&D and D&D (again) have a great feel if you can hack the length of time to build up your level. Starting high lvl makes you a shade harder than a coffin nail if you a mage. I'll go so far as to say D20 is alright for D&D. But would they 'please' get their mitts of other games. Many of which had great innovative rule system that added to their core background fiction and world feel. A full magician in SR is one of the most powerful characters in a group. Think artillery not infantry, often very versatile to if not over loaded with combat spells and with a bit of imagination in there use (which ironically playing a D&D mage gives you). The character style with standing of course. Hence the SR proverb, "Geek the wizzer first." There are aspected magicians of course.....hmm :wink: |
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Dec 19 2005, 07:57 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6-October 05 From: Toronto Member No.: 7,819 |
Wow tanka, a misplaced "is" and you make me sound illiterate...
How anal can you get? |
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Dec 19 2005, 08:30 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,110 |
Hey, sometimes stuff like that can be a little distracting... I had trouble with that sentence too. It can be damn near impossible for someone with ADD. (Not saying tanka is ADD, just giving an example of someone who might be hyper aware to the point of not being able to filter or tune stuff out.) |
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Dec 19 2005, 09:22 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6-October 05 From: Toronto Member No.: 7,819 |
tanka said - "Granted; you could put a city in a bottle, but you had to be really powerful to do so."
Who puts a semi-colon after "Granted" like that?!? I'm just pointing out that this is the internet and mistakes are unavoidable. Geez. |
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