What's Good For the Goose...?, NPC's vs PC's Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Anythingforenoug...]

I have a question about how other groups handle player requests for their characters that are either non-cannon, or pseudo-canonical at best. By way of background as to how this particular question has arisen in our group:

In one of my games I had an total sexploitation based NPC who was an adept assassin that followed a totem (Cobra) based path. She had mastered a unique metamagic which allowed her to use the critter power Confusion when she danced, which was the basis of how she operated in combat (as I said, a total sexploitation based character). I got the idea for this power/NPC in a total muchkin moment when I was reading through the totems and got to Horse, which grants its followers the ability to learn the critter power movement as a metamagic technique.

Now I am in the situation where I have players who want to have similar rule-bending elements for their PCs. We don't have any players in our group who generally ask for things for their PCs that don't make since, the standard is for things to line up pretty well with the character concept/backstory-so I don't get a lot of the outrageous you only want this because you think it is cool even though it makes no sense for your character at all, type of requests.

Being as this sort of question, how close to cannon the PCs must remain must be something that a lot of groups have to deal with, I was wondering, how do you come down on the question?

Thanks in advance for any of you who take the time to respond.

Anythingforenoughnuyen.

[Herald of Verjig...]

So, how unusual is it? On a scale from "different visible effects of the armor spell" to "complete non-magical immunity to lead" about where does this rule-bend fit?

[fistandantilus4....]

My 2 :nuyen: , I'd say that if it makes sense for the character , make them work for it, but otherwise, why not? If a character can summon a spirit to use a power, why not let the character have the power? If you're worried about game balance, tweak the power a bit, or give it drain to balance it. Just make sure that it fits with the character, and it doens't get out of hand, like everyonewanting a unique metamagic poiwer. Then it becomes a superhero's game.

[nick012000]

Or, given the general tone of Shadowrun, a Supervillians game. :P

[fistandantilus4....]

the villians were always cooler anyways. Really, who wanted to be a GI Joe hoser or autobot, when you could be a 'Cobra' or Deceptacon!? Bumblebee's a loser anyways. :D

[nick012000]

Besides which, the overly complex plans? So Shadowrun. ;)

[toturi]

[Mr.Platinum]

In my games all my Players have to make Canon characters or get out!

[Nyxll]

This is why we make house rules. There are many things in Cannon which are limited or we just do not like, so we make house rules to tailor the game to enhance our gameplay.

In my games, if there is something that will not overpower the gameplay, and really adds colour to the character I will let it stand. (I usually have some kind of flaw or drawback that goes with it for balance, although many times other players in the group have no idea about the negatives, and get a bit jealous at times till they find out more)

[toturi]

[Mr.Platinum]

[The Stainless St...]

I am usually fairly flexible, but I have the advantage of exclusivity, meaning my players don't take their characters to some other GM's table and try to convince them to let them get away with the same shenanigans that I do.

I try not to let the rule raping run rampant, but if I think something will add to the story or flavor of the game then I'll usually let it slide.

[Dawnshadow]

If you're going to add minor things to NPCs that are non-canon, then you should allow similar for PCs -- up to a point.

Half the fun of Shadowrun is that you are the little guy, compared to the opposition.

[Nyxll]

[Aku]

i think that if it's a technique available to multiple NPCs, than it should be avaialable to PCs as well, If its only one NPC however, than you can safely say that they "discovered" the technique or whatever, and not make it available to PCs, atleast, not without a price...

[Kagetenshi]

I do not make everything I make available to my NPCs available to my PCs. This is canon—Otaku abilities before Brainscan, Insect Totems, Path of the Righ, etc. etc etc.

That said, I (with one exception) generally approve non-canon things for PCs if I want to make them allowable to anyone in the future.

~J

[eidolon]

[Nyxll]

[Pendaric]

My stance is that every Ref automatic answer to "please give me question" is NO!
If the player can jump through Ref's stringent hoops of credibility and consistency, I might downgrade to Maybe.
That being said, there are grey areas that beg to be explored, all it requires is a little subtly.
And a excessively sized, crude length of deciduous forest. :evil:

[Kagetenshi]

[Glyph]

I agree. The dice are there to provide a fixed measurement of concepts such as skill or toughness, as well as add a truly random element to the game. I understand that sometimes GMs need to adjust things on the fly, but shy away from messing with dice rolls. If the PCs are having a rough time, then it's their own fault if their characters don't run away. If they are having too easy of a time, just let them. You can always make the opposition tougher next time. There is a fine line between "adding cinematic value" and railroading.


On allowing things equally for both PCs and NPCs, I would say that NPCs cover a wider range than the PCs do, from squatters and wage slaves up to dragons and immortal elves. So at the higher end, there are a few things, such as Path of the Righ, that are out of the reach of PCs, at least starting ones. You can also limit them from abilities that are either an exclusive discovery of one NPC, or limited to a secretive group of NPCs. However, if NPCs with special, non-canon abilities are fairly common, then it is only fair to allow PCs the same opportunity if they want something special for their character.

[fistandantilus4....]

[Kagetenshi]

[RunnerPaul]

[toturi]

[tisoz]

[Mr.Platinum]

When players are aloud to create powers or tech it can sometimes ruins a game.

In one of my first groups, i had a fellow player have an adept abilaty that when ever a picture would be taken , it was blurry, people could never remebered him or anything , it was just a major unbalance and the GM at the time never used his abilaty as a bad thing.

It was RETARDED like the drop bear thread.

[nezumi]

[hyzmarca]

What is good for the NPC is good for the PC if and only if it doesn't disrupt the balance of the game. It is perfectly alright to give NPCs gamebreaking powers up to a point. It just forces the PCs to find a different way to fight them or a way not to fight them at all.
When you give a gamebreaking power to a PC, however, it messes everything up. The players will be less likely to plan and more likely to fall back on the same superpower over and over. Meanwhile, players who don't benefit from these powers will be plotting way to kill the Mary Sue.

When aproving any power there are two major questions that you have to ask. Does this power provide a significant advantage to the PC or is it just good for flavor? If the answer is the former then then you should seriously consider denying it. If it is the latter there is no reason not to allow it.
If this power mimics something that is already available to canon PCs is it better or less costly than the canon version? If so, you should deny it. Let them gain the ability to same way to other PCs have to. On the other hand, if it is more costly or less useful than the canon version, then you may consider allowing it.



I find that instead of letting players create PCs with unique powers it is better to let them create NPCs with unique powers. All too often players and GMs ignore PC enemies when they can really be a great source of Threat NPCs.

Consdier the Hunted flaw. Some uncreative players put down Hunted 6 : Ares and suffer instant death from orbital cow, prompting some GMs to simply ban the flaw.
On the other hand, a creative player could choose Hunted 6: Lemming Death God
and then write an intricite backstory on a homosexual academic mage from the Atlantis Foundation who became obsessed with lemmings and followed them off a cliff into the ocean and discovered an artifact which transformed him into a regenerating demigod with the ability to induce SUGE effects in others at will. The player could go on to explain how this magician turned demigod kidnapped and sexually tortured his hetrosexual character as part of a ritual to grant him ultimate power and that he still needs the PC to complete the ritual. This would give a GM a great Threat NPC as well as an excuse to throw armies of bizarros at the PCs.

And when players create their own superpowered Threats they have the same emotional investment that the NPC that they do with superpowered PCs, only that investment is directed toward the Threats downfall rather than a PC's success. (Of course, there are exceptions. Some players make characters with th intent that they die at the hands of their enemies.)

[Kagetenshi]

[hyzmarca]

[Apathy]

Hmmm, confusion metamagic geas'd to sexually explicit dancing.

Plenty of ways that this wouldn't have to be overpowered.

• Erotic Dancing metamagic is an exclusive action.
• Test is an opposed Charisma vs Will
• Limit max TN modifier to (Charisma+Dance skill+Initiate Lvl)/3
• Only works on those in visual range.
• Works on both friends and foes in visual range (i.e. cant be targeted)
• Visual modifiers subtracted from resistance test TN.
• 1/2 highest armor value of performer (Impact/Ballistic) subtracted from resistance test TN.
• Tactile range adds 3 to resistance TN.
• Apply exhaustion rules as per carrying heavy load
• Resist drain each turn of (number of turns danced)L

Done this way, I wouldn't even make it that expensive...

[Kagetenshi]

[Dawnshadow]

[Kagetenshi]

Exclusive means you can't perform any other magical action. You can defend and hammer them into the ground when they're rolling against 10s and you're looking for 4s.

~J

[Dawnshadow]

...erm.. Drat. You're right.

I forgot that it's only a house rule that some exclusive actions aren't magical and that some you can't do ANYTHING but the action. Canon doesn't have the limit, so you can still do things like dodge and fight back while trying to pick a lock..

[hyzmarca]

How about making the act of sustaining the dance a complex action. That way, one can't just apply the penality and then attack. If the dancer stops dancing then the TN modifiers instantly go away. The dance is still usefull for a member of a team but far less so for an individual who simply can't do anything that isn't a free action while performing it.

[Mr.Platinum]

Exotic danncing or Stripping is a good way for an adept to use that nifty power of enhanced preformance in SOta 64.

[nick012000]

Or maybe she was a Leshy, and she dyed her hair.

[Critias]

Or a cross-dressing Leshy/Sasquatch cross-breed ork-poser Technomancer!

[nick012000]

:please:

I was being perfectly serious when I said that.

[emo samurai]

Judging from his other comments, he might have known perfectly well that it was serious.

[Grinder]