Egregores, MegaCorps, and Magik Options

[rlemansky]

Greetings.

RL Hermetic Theory postulates the existence of egregores. These are astral entities based off of the collective belief(s) of the members of a group or philosophy. Thus, the US, Liberty, Gaia all have their own egregores. Some theorize that 'gods' are only alive as long as they have worshippers. RL mages use this theory to create servitors-coalesce enough of the right energy and-'It's Alive!'

In SR, MegaCorps employ thousands, if not millions, have their own philosophy, and have their own 'legal' existence. Is it too much of a stretch to assume that they have an astral 'life'? Imagine a group of runners hitting Ares, only to find that there is an Ares spirit, with major mojo at it's disposal. Imagine Lowfyr getting ousted-or at least battling-the SK entity on the metaplanes.

These corporate egregores could start Initiatory Groups, or even function as Totems to grant spells-or at least dispatch spirit 'buds' to aid it's followers. That'd take corporate magical security to the next level (like it needed the help) and add some new Shaman to the corporate roster-aren't corp shaman rather rare?

On a completely different note-can Shaman cast spells? I've gotten a bit confused in my re-reading of the books that I have. Much of the time the authors refer to spell slingers as magicians-are both Hermetics and Shaman magicians, or are Hermetics the only mages? I know it's semantics, but I'm a bit lost, nonetheless.

Thanks.

R

[Lilt]

That is very interesting... There is a feathered serpant totem in MITS which could well be one of these. I don't know if they are really free spirits however, or if they could be the quintessencial basis of totems.

Shamans can cast spells.

[Kagetenshi]

[Siege]

I guess you would then need to develop some form of a time-line or power progression chart.

How many people believe, how strongly and for how long before a tangible benefit manifests.

And are you including association with belief and/or faith? For example, I associate Catholics with God and Jesus, although I don't _believe_ in them any more than I do the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy.

A lot of people associate Bill Cosby with Jell-O, but there isn't really a faith component per se. People may/can/will associate Lofty with Saed-Krup but that doesn't constitute a religious faith or belief.

-Siege

[phelious fogg]

It is if you are an SK wageslave.. If I was a I would belive in Lofwyr

[Siege]

Do you _believe_ or simply acknowledge that he is a bigger, nastier version of the boss shouting down your cubicle?

I acknowledge that Mother Theresa existed and did charity work. Others _believe_ she is a saint and miracle worker, fit to be canonized and promoted to Saint-hood. That's not just belief, but faith.

-Siege

[Velocity]

Wouldn't it depend on the corp? Yamatetsu is not a heavily-branded enterprise: the corporate logo is rarely visible on the products of its subsidiaries and it prefers to exist as, essentially, a massive holding and investment company. Same goes for Shiawase (I think). On the other hand, Ares is all about its brand: "buy Ares, buy UCAS."

The marketing kids at Ares have worked very hard to blur the distinction between "brand loyalty" and "patriotism," to the degree that UCAS citizens probably don't see much difference between their public institutions (i.e. government) and their private ones (i.e. Ares and its subsidiaries).

In such a case, it could be argued that a nascent Ares egregore might in fact coelesce at some point. We might not need an entire rules system to determine the gestation period for a new Totem, but the idea of a spiritual archetype spontaneously manifesting is a great springboard for a shadow run. :)

[rlemansky]

A further clarification is perhaps in order...

'(An egregore) is the psychic and astral entity of a group. It is a kind of group mind which is created when people consciously come together for a common purpose. Each of us belong to several of these groups. The process is unconscious. There also are drawbacks, some disturbing psychic influences in many cases, and a restriction of freedom. It is impossible to free oneself from certain egregores, for example the egregores of the country you live in. However we should free ourselves from non-essential egregores.

If this process is continued for a long time, the egregore will take on a life of it's own, even if all the members should pass through transition, it would continue to exist on the inner dimensions and can be contacted even for centuries later by a group of people prepared to live the lives of the original founders, particularly if they are willing to provide the initial input of energy to get it going again. These thought-forms are created reality by an individual or a group. They exist in the exoteric and esoteric realms. They are created by groups such as societies or cultures, professions and trades, or any group. They can be accessed by all members of that group. They change as the group contacting them changes.

The egregore is prone to change, either to evolve or degenerate as members of that group change. The group then reflects the changing "egregore". This contact of group members to their "egregore" is automatic in most cases, when the member actually feels that he/she is a member of that group. Most members are unconscious of this process. There are also instances where some groups deliberately use the egregore for the spiritual development and well being of their members.'

The website this is from is:

http://salemos.tripod.com/index-50.html

So, theoretically, MegaCorp Egregores already exsist, probably mindless and sleeping. Someone may stumble on one, wake it up, and use it for whatever ends. The Great Ghost Dance and Blood Magic utilizes the essence of Donors, physically and spiritually. The MegaCorp Egregore could use the psychic essence of all of it's wage slaves as a power source-pretty potent.

A RL example-look at sporting events where the crowd spurs the lesser skilled home team on to victory, or feel the energy at a live concert-imagine being able to tap into that. Now, how about being able to tap into a similar, but lower level enrgy daily. Pretty potent Shamans, neh?

[Req]

So do these things sound a bit like Passions to anyone else? Seems like canon already hints at 'em...

[Velocity]

So there's no faith requirement, merely a shared sense of identity? How strong do the feelings of community have to be? How many people have to be involved? Do my partner and I have an egregore? We live together and share responsibilities, goals, hopes & aspirations for the future--are the two of us enough?

What about all the employees of Saeder-Krupp worldwide? They share nothing more substantial than a mutual employer: they are of different ethnicities, sexualities, ages, abilities, faiths, etc. Is such a loose conglomeration of people enough to generate the energy sufficient for awakening an egregore?

[CAVEAT]
I'm not trying to play devil's advocate or undermine anyone's ideas, I'm just throwing out some questions that came to mind. I find the idea of applying this concept (i.e. egregores) to Shadowrun really interesting and appealing. :)
[/CAVEAT]

[Sphynx]

I've been working on a similar idea.

[ Spoiler ]

I plan to have certain Gods appear on Earth. They won't assense as spirits, but as pure force. Can't be dispelled/banished/etc, and begin taking an interest in the affairs of men again. Unfortunately, the team storyline has been primarily in the Atzlan area and there's very little info on that (or Mayan) pantheon. So, might move them for a bit to the Norfolk area and have gods like Thor and Odin appear before them while playing certain Man-O-War mpgs.

;)

Sphynx

[rlemansky]

In response...

'So there's no faith requirement, merely a shared sense of identity? How strong do the feelings of community have to be? How many people have to be involved? Do my partner and I have an egregore? We live together and share responsibilities, goals, hopes & aspirations for the future--are the two of us enough?'

Not really a faith requirement, per se. Participation or membership in the group seems to suffice. Fanatic loyalty would contribute more 'energy', lip service less. You and your partner probably DO have an egregore-the 'household' or 'relationship', I'd call it. It probably doesn't have a lot of magickal power or impact (although I guess it could theoretically be cultivated)-and, really, don't be offended by that, not that you should be.

'What about all the employees of Saeder-Krupp worldwide? They share nothing more substantial than a mutual employer: they are of different ethnicities, sexualities, ages, abilities, faiths, etc. Is such a loose conglomeration of people enough to generate the energy sufficient for awakening an egregore?'

I'd think that it would suffice. Even all of those folks donating a nuyen a day would add up, so change the financial aspect to spiritual (lots has been written on Money being a new spiritual entity). Think about how groups are often more than the sum of the members-synergy being what it is. Plus, many groups take on a life of their own (just like characters in books or RPGs), evolving away from the originating members' intents, especially after their demise-I'll refrain from any religious comments here.

If the post has inspired you and added anything to your games, I'm glad. I thought it sounded like a cool idea-newly Awakened MegaCorp spirit initiating it's own Shaman (like the Deep Resonance/otaku), creating REAL wageslave zombies-cool. Someone compared these Egregores to Passions-a thought I'd considered, but with the damage to metahumankind's spirit, I'd think them Horrors, instead.

Have fun.

[Herald of Verjig...]

That last bit reminded me:

Check the bio of the passion(less) "Dis"

[Dr Komuso]

You're turning Shadowrun into Nobilis here :)

Not that that's a bad thing...

....at all.

[Kagetenshi]

On a side note, what kind of Egregore would Apple Computers or Linux and Open Source end up with? Speaking as a Macuser, we're friggin' fanatics!

~J

[mfb]

hmm. it'd be interesting to see the effects of something like this a century or so down the road. maybe something like an astral matrix, with spiritual connections running from the individual members to the hub of their egregore.

[Velocity]

[mfb]

i could see corporations anchoring extended-area effect control emotion spells, designed to dampen dissatisfaction.

[Velocity]

[rlemansky]

Glad to see that I sparked some interest...

Regarding MacUsers and the Apple Egregore-the more rabidly loyal members are, the more potent the entity. Much would depend on the intent of the group-gods help us, a USE for mission statements. Microsoft's seems to being 'Expand and conquer at any cost' or something to that effect, so it'd have a very acquisitive avatar.

Sustenance (and potency) would be based on number of members and loyalty-more is better. The most powerful and best maintained would be ones consciously created and controlled by a Mage or Shaman-or a group of them, though I'd think Jungian psychologists could do a fair job of it as well.

I thought SR's use of the Astral WAS very much like it's Matrix:

Going astral=jacking in
Spells=programs
Ally Spirits=Knowbots
Free Spirits=AI

In both you leave the meatbod behind and travel through an un-real realm. Communications' facilitated in both, death in either is still fatal. The Astral's still relatively untapped, like an early (maybe our RL InterNet) Matrix. I think the parallels are great, and I have to wonder if the metaplot was leading to a unification of the Astral and Matrix-our Otaku and NetWarriors'd be ready to battle the Horrors on their own turf, mentally (the Decker), spiritually (the Mage), and physically (the Sammie).

Thanks.

[Backgammon]

Sounds like a spirit of Man to me, just with a different flavour. I mean, a summoned hearth spirit is going to have a "taint" of the building you summoned it from. So instead of being the spirit of a building, you would be summoning a spirit of Group, which would manifest with a taint of the group unconscious.

[Wireknight]

It would be Quickening, not Anchoring, that would be used to sustain area-effect(probably extended area-effect) Control Emotions spells to induce artificial contentment on targets in a certain area. The problem is that it would fade outside of the area of effect(creating individuals who would become addicted to that particular area), and would be astrally visible and vulnerable.

[ialdabaoth]

Again, Earthdawn's concept of Names and Patterns would be interesting to apply here.

[CoalHeart]

Egregores
Disney's = Micky Minny Goofy Pluto and so on
Warner Brothers' = Loony toons.
Lucas Arts = Star Wars
Rocky Horror Picture show = I shudder to think of it.
Anything else that has world wide fan-dom. I mean even Brittany Spears could get a Egregore...


The future is bleak. Put two in your head and save your self.

[mfb]

er, quickening, right. the astral vulnerability shouldn't be a problem--you're not going to have mages living with the wageslaves, nor working with them very often. a corp enclave would probably have them cast over wageslave work areas, especially the button-punchers who handle sensitive data. they might even go so far as to use them in the wageslave housing, as well.

backgammon's got a good idea. to take it a step further, what about having shamans of a particular egregore? i'm not sure what the advantages and disadvantages would be, but it's an interesting idea. or maybe figure out how a psion could benefit from or take advantage of an egregore? since they'd be largely psychic phenomenon anyway, it'd only make sense that a psion should be able to interact with them more easily.