Laws on Summoner Responibilty for Spirit Actions Options

[Nasrudith]

A few hypothetical situation. A mage summons and binds a force ten fire spirit and orders it to follow and protect someone else. If that spirit ends up killing somone who is at fault and to what degree are they held responsible?

Here are a few scenarios.

1. The mage is a father and summons it to protect his son. His son gets involved with a fight at school and the spirit, obeying orders incinerates the other kid.
2. The mage works at or owns a nonextraterrotial company that offers bonded spirit body guards. One of his "securrity consulant" clients turns out to be a shadowrunner, who is captured by lonestar on a run but not before the spirit turned several lone star officers into small piles of ash. Who's at fault for their deaths?
3. The mage owns or works at a company as with above, but the client was innocent and purused by the star because they mistook him for a mass murderer/toxic shaman/major pubilc threat.
4. The mage used the bonded spirit as a guard for himself and ends up getting in the same area as a riot, where knock out gas grenades were used to quickyl disperse it. This triggers the powerful fire spirit who proceeds to turn the lone star into ash. The mage was knocked out while the spirit went on a rampage.

Edit: Note I forgot to mention the mage was knocked out then and could not tell the spirit to stand down in #4.

[Butterblume]

The mage is guilty, of course.

Altough I can't remember where I read that... or if it even was canon material.

[Demerzel]

A very good question.

My first though however is, "God I hope FanPro never publishes canon to answer these questions." I find it hard enough keeping up with all the real world legalities I have to keep up with to have it canon.

I do however think it warrents a rousing discussion.

[PBTHHHHT]

Mage is guilty and responsible for all the situations above. That he would use the spirit without being directly present to leash such a dangerous entity, responsibility should fall squarely on his shoulders. That he didn't know that it would do such things in such situations should not excuse him. The fact that it's such a powerful entity that can toast a person in mere seconds and then let it run around to cause mayhem and death, that's his fault. Now if it escapes his control and later on does evil stuff, well, that might change things, but in the current scenarios the spirit is clearly within the particular mage's control.

edit: Analogy would be letting one's pitbull be used or how about a firearm that is registered to you and you give to someone else to use. Also, I can't recall from the books, does raising such a high level spirit require the proper license? I know there's license requirements for spells.

[Trigger]

There are canon answers to those in Street Magic. All spirits summoned by a magician are the property of said magician and any damage they cause is the responosiblity of said magaician, no matter the circumstances, even if the spirit becomes uncontrolled. So the magician who summoned the spirit in your examples would be held responsible for those crimes.

[Ancient History]

For starters, Dad had better have a permit for that elemental and any binding materials he may have used.

1) Dad is guilty. Unless he hires the lawyer with the Johnny Cochrane personfix skillsoft.

2) Dad is guilty again. "Protection" does not normally involve incinerating the other assailants. No, you can't get the client to sign a waver ahead of time: ideally, the client shouldn't be able to give any commands to the spirits at all.

3) Dad is still guilty. If the Star gets the wrong address and busts down your door and you bust a cap in their ass, you still get a beat-down and stuck in prison with the dog-rapists.

4) Dad remains guilty. Even in the CAS, proactive incineration of a perceived threat is not condoned (well, except for Florida and Texas).

Now, what Dad could do (if he has the Flexible Signature metamagic) is forge the astral signature of a magician with a competing firm when summoning said spirit and pin the blame on her.

[Butterblume]

[Nasrudith]

I realize that I forgot to mention that the mage was knocked out #4, to see if being unable to tell it to stand down would affect it.

[Demerzel]

Is assensing and signature testimony admissible in court? It's not documentable, not recordable, etc. Other than signature is there any method of positively identifying a spirit's summoner?

[Butterblume]

I think it is (obviously ;)). I can't think of any other method of identifying the spirit's summoner.

What I referenced to earlier, I have actually no Idea if a spirit that breaks free during conjuring would have a link to it's summoner at all.

[James McMurray]

The mage is responsible.

Here's a simple way to remember how Lone Star reacts to summoned critters' crimes:

1) If the summoned creature commits a crime, mess the mage up.

2) If the summoned creature commits a major crime, Drop the Hammer on the mage.

It's a simple rule that's both easy to follow and easy to extrapolate to all sorts of interactions between runners and the Law. Anything more than that can be interesting, but IMO is overkill and not necessary.

[Trigger]

Signature testimony is admissible in court, as an astral signature is like a finger print and unique to each person. Aura reading and assensing is not, since it is against the fifth amendment and consider self incriminating evidence. Spirit testimony is not admissible either, but spirits are still used by the police to help find hard evidence to use in court. But all forensics squads also have a magical forensic department as well by 2070. This is all also in Street Magic.

[Thane36425]

What dad could do is order the spirit to only use fear and confusion powers to allow the son to get away. If the son provoked a fight to use the spirit on someone, the dad should summon a spirit and have it use its fear power on sonny boy, while he's locked in a room and can't get away from it, for a little while.

[James McMurray]

Fifth Amendment? What is this, the United States of America?

[Trigger]

[Ancient History]

[James McMurray]

Bah! Facts!

Ok, I stand corrected. :)

[Demerzel]

[Butterblume]

This is probably the part where opportunity and motive enters the fray :D.

[Trigger]

[Demerzel]

A spoofed fingerprint would be able to be examined by the defense and refuted. A spoofed signature is just taking the forensic magician's word for its validity, and the defense has no recourse for a second opinion or further evaluation as signatures fade.

[cetiah]

Actually, it's like any "expert testimony". You first have to prove that your witness is credible, reliable, and knowledgeable. Then prove that the information he knows is relevant to the case and then his testimony can be "trusted" by the courts. If someone else pulls out a contradictory "expert" who is also credible, knowledgeable, etc, then we better hope your case doesn't center on that mage's witness account of the defendant's astral signature.

You could have more mages come and testify, but if the opposition tries to pull up more mages to counter than the judge is likely to not allow either side anything past a second opinion (for a total four witness testimonies).

It's also important to point out that mages testifying in a court would usually be paid as expert consultants for their time and expertise. This is standard practice with all expert witnesses. For this reason, organizations like Lone Star and various corps would likely call on the same experts often (negotiating a special price), and the expert gains a reputation for credibility in courtrooms that helps out (and raises his prices). It's an inherent factor keeping a mage from going crooked, just 'cause it wouldn't be in his best business interests.

It's also important to keep in mind that a court might have mindprobers, especially in the case of mages providing astral expert testimony. A special courtmage might also have liberty to summon a spirit who could provide testimony. This courtmage will be responsible for preventing any form of jury-tampering and will probably take the role of bailiff in modern courtrooms. He may also summon a spirit to Guard the jury.

Also, each side's lawyers are likely to have a mage to provide illusions portraying the events that happened at the time in question. These illusions aren't evidence per se, but sometimes how you present the evidence is way more important. Each lawyer's courtmage will also be responsible for presenting illusions and will likely be watching the auras of jury-members as a key strategy for defense and prosecution.

In summation, astral signature should be admissible in courtrooms, but would have about the same weight as eye-witness testimony. Pretty compelling, but still could be discounted with some masterful and devious legal maneuvering. And on its own, almost useless without hard evidence (or lots of circumstantial evidence).

[Trigger]

[Ravor]

Of course Street Magic also says that in some more pro-awakened juridictions the judge itself might be a spirit, plus remember that the Megas aren't likely to care about UCAS laws involving Mind Probing and the like...

*Edit*

Finished my thought.

[Nasrudith]