Combat Realism, How to make SR3 a better system Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Lazarus]

I was reading on the SR3R thread and a lot of it is focused on making the game easier to understand which I think is awesome.

However one of the things that has always bugged me about SR is that combat is not very realistic. In fact I hate absolutely despise the initiative system in SR3. I hate combat phases where the slow people get to act before the fast person gets to act again. I'm sorry but if you've seen a real fight a master will go many times before a novice even has a chance to react.

Here's what I looking for in the way of suggestions.

1. What ways do you think combat, both melee and ranged, can be improved?

2. Same as with the Initiative system.

3. What about a better damage system? Or a hit location?

4. Anything else that you think needs to be addressed.

Thanks for your time in advance.

[Critias]

One easy fix (that you specifically mention) would be to knock Initiative back to the old days -- where you go in order, period. If Quick Quigley rolls a 31 for Initiative, and Slow Samantha rolls a 9?

31 - Quigley
21 - Quigley
11 - Quigley
9 - Samantha
1 - Quigley

Would be the order of combat. It's a simple fix, that doesn't change any stats innately... but be prepared for grouching from the soon-to-be-dead slow guys. It's more "realistic" if you really want your chipped to the max guys to feel like they're chipped to the max... but it makes reaction/initiative enhancements that much more important.

Other than that, my only big gripes with combat are the power/damage of handguns compared to long guns (except shotguns), and the number of skills required to really be good in a fight (Skill Groups are one of the few things I very much like in SR4). It's all out of wack.

[Link]

Lazarus, you should join the relevant SR3R thread, many of your questions have been asked and few of them answered :)
Critias' suggestion for initiative was one of those brought up for instance along with a system to spread actions evenly through the round so that 1 action wonders would act in the middle of the faster character's actions.

[Stumps]

1. Initiative: Critias pretty much hit it on the head. Just use SR2 initiative. It does exactly what you want.

2. Melee: "Realism"...well, tbh, the ONLY realisitic approach to melee in a gun fight, considering the speed, would be for the brawler to remove guns from being part of the fight. As long as guns are in play, anyone trying to throw punches is at a serious disadvantage realistically.
Even a master is quickly humbled by a common street thug that is 10 to 20 yards away.

If you are seriously looking for realism, then you would reduce melee into blow by blow motion in relation to the seconds of each round of combat. Truly, how many melee accomplishments can be done in a few seconds vs. how many pulls of a trigger?

Consider that, and it becomes readily apparent that if you really want realistic melee, you are essentially asking for a system that screws melee combatants most of the time.

Disarming, under this type of system, becomes the best tool for melee combatants; that, or flash grenades.

3) Damage system: Don't know what you would rather see here.

4) Hit location: Better jump in on the SR3 revamp or run a search through the forums. This one isn't that simple.
Making hit location systems in SR means resetting the values for armor and damage for weapons, as they are presently set for the vague clustering rule style of SR combat. Just simply using a hit location system alone would over power some aspects and greatly under power others.

[nezumi]

Alternatively, consider just getting CP2020. The system seems a little more complex, but it has a lot of what you're talking about. Melee combat really can't compare to assault rifles, there are hit locations, etc. There aren't extra actions like you get in SR, it's more like the d20 initiative style, but that can be fixed easily enough.

[Critias]

Extra actions are possible in CP:2020, you just take a to-hit penalty for every additional attack you attempt to take. And, with a high enough skill in a martial art, melee combat can get pretty ridiculously deadly (less base dice, but more reliable damage thanks to adding your m. art skill to the damage roll).

But, yes. My nitpicking nature aside, CP:2020 does have an overall more realistic set of combat rules than SR. Weapons have calibers and reliability ratings, every incoming attack has a hit location, body armor covers certain body parts (and not others), you name it. S'good stuff.

[Snow_Fox]

we did what critas suggested- used the old system, otherwise it starts to boog down. the 1st ed combat rules were a nightmare

[Wounded Ronin]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do a search for "Combat Realism". There have been a lot of excellent discussions that people really poured their hearts into. I remember that I wrote up an entire alternate melee combat system. It's a disservice for someone who is interested in simulationism/realism not to look at the past discussions that took place on DSF.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Lazarus]

[Wounded Ronin]

[Angelone]

One thing that really annoys me about movies and shows is how guy A will have guy B at gunpoint and walk right the hell up to him, within grappling distance. While yes, it is a natural reaction to get closer as someone is backing up. Stop and think, you have a ranged weapon, if anyone should be backing the hell up it should be you. It reduces the chances of you being pistol whipped into submission with your own weapon. It is very very hard to shoot someone who is punching you in the face not to mention someone who is grappling you.

EDIT- And what's with all the dialog shoot him already, twice, in the face. Or the back if it's an easier target.

[hyzmarca]

I remember an episode of Renegade (starring Lorenzo Lamas as Reno Raines, who was a cop and good at his job; but he committed the ultimate sin and testified against other cops, gone bad; cops who tried to kill him but got the woman he loved instead; framed for murder, now he prowls the bad lands; An outlaw hunting outlaws, a bounty hunter; a Renegade), in which Reno was teaching the endangered beautiful love interest of the week how to defend herself against gun-wielding assailants by slowly walking up to them and crescent-kicking the guns out of their hands, instead of backing away as most people tend to do.

That was funny. Reno always kicked the guns out of people's hands. Almost every episode, someone pulled a gun on him and he kicked the gun out of the bad guy's hand before beating the crap out of him.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Glyph]

I think one of the biggest gripes about SR3's melee combat system being an opposed dice contest is that if you have lower skill and wired reflexes: 3, all your speed does is get you beat up three times faster.

The obvious fix is to say that defending in melee combat always uses the full defense rules. You might add counterattack as an option, with the caveat that it costs the defender his or her next action.

The trouble with that "fix", though, is that it makes melee specialists less effective (which is only a problem if you have a problem with that).

[Critias]

You could also just make counterattacking add to the TN (instead of costing an action). So that the really good guys (and those Adepts with Centering) could still hand your ass to you while defending -- but for the most part initiative would matter a little more.

[Kagetenshi]

[Link]

[mfb]

one idea for ranged combat realism is to include a flat distance penalty in addition to the range category penalty--something like +1 TN per 100m or 200m. there would not be any method to counteract the distance penalty. this would reflect the fact that, even with a scope, longer distances are harder. slapping a badass scope on a sniper rifle should not make a 1km shot TN 4.

[Kagetenshi]

But it's so badass!

Especially when you don't aim!

~J

[Stumps]

Or you could seriously just take all melee and translate it to blow-by-blow moves.


Here's some logic for you.

In SR, every pull of a trigger is dissected into each pull of the trigger over the span of just a few seconds; meanwhile, in the same fraction of seconds that it takes another character to squeeze off only 2 pulls of a semi-automatic firearm an entire volley of hand-to-hand combat brawling is completed.

Baseball bat; 1.
Firearm; 0.

[mfb]

oh, yeah. it'd also be a good idea to allow semi-auto weapons to fire 'bursts' as a complex action, where you basically just tap the trigger as fast as you can. i'd make them less accurate than a regular burst (autofire/burst recoil penalties are also in need of major revision), and cap the number of rounds at, say, Qui.

[Kagetenshi]

If you've got ideas, I've got a thread for them!

~J

[mfb]

i think i posted all those ideas there. if not, i meant to!

[Critias]

I've long pondered a "you only benefit from scopes if you take an Aim Action" house rule. As it is, it's been a geas on a sniper-adept of mine, instead of a concrete rule for everyone (well, "you only get your hojillion extra Rifles dice if you Aim," rather).

It just seems silly to me how quickly you can snap off shots with giant sniper rifles, sometimes. At least their damage code is appropriately more potent than a handgun, though.

[Kagetenshi]

I don't see anything on recoil penalties. I think the SA-burst idea was brought up, but no actual mechanics were proposed that I can see skimming it.

~J

[mfb]

in general, autofire/bursts should increase or at least not decrease your chance to hit a target. you can use the somewhat overly-complex house rules we came up with at Shadowland (they're complex enough that i don't remember actually ever seeing them used, so i guess that counts as a no-go).

[Angelone]

[Critias]

Right, but MFB's proposing an additional range penalty in addition to the usual "medium, long, extreme" stuff -- regardless of weapon used, just a flat "100m" mark, to represent bullet drop, wind, and a half dozen other things that don't care what range bracket you happen to be in (or whether it's an assault, sport, or sniper rifle that happens to be doing the shooting).

[Kagetenshi]

There are, but a rating 3 scope makes them all 4.

Edit: you're thinking that it's meant to stack? I thought he was proposing a flat replacement.

Edit^2: ok, stacking makes a lot more sense when I think about applying this to pistols and shotguns rather than sporting and sniper rifles.

~J

[Critias]

[Kagetenshi]

Quiet, you!

~J

[Angelone]

Reading comprehension > Me. It's early yet, and I'm recovering from a long weekend, my location isn't lying atm.

EDIT- You also can't put scopes on everything. So they aren't the end all be all.

[Critias]

S'all good. Truth be told, I partially just knew what the weird little bastard was talking about in the first place (because we'd chatted about this sort of thing before).

[Kagetenshi]

[Critias]

Think of it instead as a "sucks to be shooting from that far away, cool guy" sort of modifier, tacked on AFTER the normal "TN 9, but hah hah I dropped it to a 4, Mr. GM, with my snazzy scope" stuff gets all added up.

Because scopes are nice and all, and even if you tell yourself there's some fancy-schmancy gyroscope-linked-to-a-range-finder thingamajigger built into every single one of them in Shadowrun (to explain why they don't need to be centered), well, shit happens at long range (the aforementioned bullet drop, tumbling, windage, and simply the time it takes a bullet to travel a great distance). So this hypothetical +1 or +2 TN of MFB's is just there to make sure difficult long-ranged shots are, well, difficult long-ranged shots.

You can use a scope to shrug off completely the first 5 points (that jump from short range to extreme, and the ensuing shift in base TN), but since that's a little silly this is just a little something extra to make the would-be snipers maybe not get a snapshot one-shot-one-kill (and encourage a few Aim actions from time to time).

[Angelone]

Doesn't a smartlink take the things you mentioned into effect (well maybe not wind)? I remember the SL2 w/rangefinder combo is very helpful for long distance shooting -1 @ long and -2 @ extreme, so I have to believe bullet drop and such is compensated for. It's a good idea but it doesn't really work.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Critias]

[Angelone]

Really? That's odd, I honestly thought that's what the cybereye vision magnifiers were for. That makes them fairly pointless then doesn't it. It baffles the mind.

[Critias]

Yup. SR3, p. 280, "Imaging scopes may not be used with smartlink systems." SR3, p. 300 "This enhancement magnifies the visual image in the same manner as an imagine scope" (emphasis mine).

It's a not-unreasonable house rule to say that the cyberoptics don't come with the same penalty as the physical scopes, but if you do so keep in mind just how easy you're making most long ranged shots (especially those made with the above combo you mentioned, including the range finder and the SL II).

[Wounded Ronin]

[Kagetenshi]

[Link]

The base range TN (i.e. 4, 5, 6 & 9) seems a better model for weapon ballistics including barrel length, ammo grade etc. then for the ability to precisely aim at a distant target.
e.g. an SMG is TN9 at 81m while an assault rifle is TN9 at 351m. However, looking through the iron sights of the SMG or AR at a target 100m away would give much the same view.
A better model might have scopes affect the vision modifier rather than ballistic TN.
Here's the vision modifier chart (adapted from the Grimoire) I use for sorcery but maybe useful here.

[ Spoiler ]

VISUAL RANGE
0 – 150 None
151 – 300 +2
301 – 600 +4
601 – 1,250 +6
1,251 – 2,500 +8
2,501 – 5,000 +10
5,001+ BVR
Optics device - rating
Underwater VR-25%

As for the flight time, all SR weapons will reach their maximum range in a about a second or less (according to Raygun's data) while wind would affect the ballistic rather than visual TN. Perfect conditions might drop extreme range to 8 while a strong crosswind makes it 11. Aiming represents a shooter compensating for this.

[Stumps]

[Angelone]

One thing that it seems we've forgotten, which I just thought about, was the other modifiers (SR3 pg. 112). Such as cover, lighting, movement, and impaired visibility. IRL I have never shot in perfect conditions, and admittly all my experience is at a target range. Shadowrunners otoh, get into firefights in some pretty let's say challenging conditions, near darkness, people running around, taking cover, smoke or flash grenades going off, etc. Those modifiers in my mind make things fairly challenging.

[Stumps]

I wasn't under the impression that anyone had forgotten about those modifiers, but was rather addressing the base mechanics before those are stacked.

...personally...SR has too many modifiers.

[Angelone]

*shrugs* They weren't mentioned, that I saw, and as I said I had forgotten about them until basically that moment.

It makes no sense to complain about the base mechanics before mods. are stacked. Basically in whatever situation you are in one of those mods. are applicable. Unless of course you are executing a point blank target in a well lit room. If you ramp up the base without taking the mods. into consideration noones going to hit a thing.

[Critias]

Except that the vast majority of those modifiers can be sidestepped by various widgets, cyber mods, and other pieces of gear. I've run a street sammy up from 0 karma to the mid-200's. It was very, very, rare for his TNs to be higher than 5, after all was said in done, in all that time. I can honestly say he missed -- clean missed -- with one shot, ever, in all the time I ran him. Most of my characters tend to be shooters of one variety or another, be it magic or mundane (hell, even my mages end up with a 5/7 for assault rifles/their favorite), so I kind of know what I'm talking about here. TN mods can be chipped away at, and shots made pretty simple, more often than not.

Take a look at the lighting conditions table, for instance, and watch how those horrible TN mods just melt away against "low-light with eyelight," combined with thermo for those rare few cases you're in complete darkness. Tack on a -2 for a smartlink and occasionally a -1 for aiming, and don't ever forget Centering (for those gunbunny Adepts)...and TNs can be pretty low, pretty consistently. Remember the ability to augment a critical roll with combat pool, and frankly I'm surprised when a character misses.

Especially in a thread called "combat realism," Shadowrun characters hit way, way, too often. Look at the number of shots fired by soldiers or cops, versus the number of hits, sometimes. Now compare that to the number of shots fired, versus the number of hits, in your average Shadowrun game.

[nezumi]

The thing you're forgetting is after 60 years of improvements, runners SHOULD hit far more often. While cops hit somewhere between 1/6 to 4/6 of the time within 25 feet during a combat situation, they don't have smartlinks, vision modifiers, even basic things like laser sights (which I assume are a little different from the sights we have now).

[Kagetenshi]

Last I heard, hit rate was more in the single-digit percents. Does someone have a study to link to?

~J

[Angelone]

You bring up good points about the lighting, but cover is a whole other beast. Yeah, it get's reduced with a smartlink, but it's still a +2 or +6 for "blind fire" aka full cover. Then you have the target running mod. where if the target is running at the time of the attack or during their previous action there is a +2 to hit them. Plus whatever manuevering the shooter is doing adds to the tn.

EDIT- 5% in combat sitituations is what is in my booklet they gave me in BCT.

[Critias]

Blind fire is a +8, not a +6. Baddies also don't get cover if the PCs are going first (and they haven't moved behind cover yet), ditto running, etc. There are also plenty of times cover isn't available. There are also plenty of times, again, where all these modifiers are just rendered moot by smart Centering and the wise application of an Aim Action and some Combat Pool.

Most of this conversation is besides the point, though, as it was brought up concerning extremely long range shots (for Shadowrunners) and additional modifiers to be applied specifically to them -- if you're sniping at someone 200 (or more) meters out, in Shadowrun, are they really expecting it? Running around, ducking and bobbing and weaving, while taking full cover behind a dumpster or something...against someone they can't see, a couple football fields away?

And, in fact, for follow-up shots after that first horrible aimed headshot, if the rest of the targets in this hypothetical sniping scenario are all tossing smoke grenades, running around, ducking and diving behind cover (just like people do IRL) -- shouldn't the guy trying to shoot them through the limited field of vision imposed on him by his scope have a hard time hitting? Or are you okay with them just snapping off shots as quickly as a guy blasting away with a semi-auto pistol, with all the accuracy and power of a sniping platform?

[Angelone]

As a clarification I took the -2 for the smartlink out as I was using it earlier in the sentence.

[Critias]

Adding an extra +1 TN on all shots of "100m or 200m or something" is hardly "all shots with all weapons."

[nezumi]

[Kagetenshi]

I was thinking police actions.

~J

[Critias]

The problem with the rules for suppressive fire, as written, is that it really isn't very scary. Nevermind just the way it clashes so much with the rest of how combat is supposed to work (with the huge stack of modifiers it completely ignores, both positive and negative), most serious combat guys can shrug off an 8M (rolled at TN 6) without much trouble.

If you had three or four people all suppressing the same area (and with a decent enough combat skill to score at least one token success on the would-be attack rolls, which requires a 6 minimum), it could whittle someone down okay... but, really, it's a little silly how weak it is (particularly with the "super velocity" guns that they claim would be custom built for this sort of work, but which all have their damage code neutered as a result of their improved rate of fire).

There are only two times I've seen it really be worth much. The first was when we had a pair of heavy-firepower Adepts (made for a custom bug-hunting game) both use it at the same time. The two of us suppressed the line of oncoming bugs, one with an HMG and one with an Assault Rifle, and we were each rolling 13 dice per attack. We also did so as the way to open the fight, during an ambush round, so none of the bad guys could spend Combat Pool to even try to dodge -- the end result was each of us (absurdly) hosing down every living thing in a five meter spread.

The other was when the GM ruled my Centering vs. Penalties would offset the +2 TN for each attack roll, not just for one of them. And that time we ended up with a great horrid bloody pile of corpses, all stacked very neatly outside a the doorway they were rushing at us through, and an empty magazine in an AK 97. Which was pretty neat because it's how assault rifles should to work, but at the same time felt kind of broken because Centering is the only thing that can lower that TN (which makes Suppression into something for gun Adepts, and no one else, to ever bother using).

[Kagetenshi]

Suppressive Fire works pretty decently with MMGs and heavier, but it isn't something I'd want to try with an SMG or most ARs in Shadowrun. It probably should get reworked. Though now and then people can do impressive things with it...

~J

[mfb]

there's one other instance where suppressive fire is a good option (or rather, it's the least-bad option available): when you've got a lot of ammo and no skill. one of my characters made great use of his 6 Str using an MMG to hose down wave after wave of low- to mid-force shedim.

[nezumi]

I think I must have been using the rules wrong. You're not going to kill anyone with that method, but has been plenty effective at applying fresh perforations to incoming troops.

[mfb]

well, i had plenty of time to light them up. i could spend a full round (3 passes, with his init) suppressing a small group, inflicting a few Ms and an S on each of them.

[Kagetenshi]

EX-EX actually makes it decently viable, even for an assault rifle. 10M is a fair bit nastier than 8M, and 11/12S than 9/10S. You won't put down many Trolls, but other than that...

~J

[Lazarus]

Sorry for jumping back in on this post a little late but my home PC is busted right so I'm writing this from work so please forgive me if I'm going back to some old posts.

Cybereyes, Smartlinks, & Imaginers: To me it doesn't make any sense that you can't use these systems in conjunction with one another. It seems that the "balance" fairy has popped in and done her trick. To me if you have smartlink, with cybereye vision mags and a rangefinder they should work together since a smartlink is just going off where the muzzle of the gun is pointing. Now you could argue that with the vision mags the distance is different than normal vision so the computer couldn't adjust. Bulldrek. You would think the eggheads would have fixed that if that were the case. Why would you have two systems that you can't use together? To me I've always played that they work together even with a digital scope on a smartlink rifle. The tech just links up together.

Target hits: The difference between a well-aimed snipe and a pistol shot is that 9 times out of 10 the sniper has time to aim and the person with the pistol is reacting. Basically the reason you have a lot of missing in real-life police situations is because police officers aren't trained like Delta Force. In the snipe situation your adrenaline may be pumping but you have time, hopefully, to calm down and adjust. If you're in an ambush then you're reacting and you're adrenaline is kicking in and that is what most likely makes your shots go wild. In a panic situation you'll fallback to your highest level of training. You don't have time to think and adjust you're just reacting.

To me if you wanted to make it more realistic you would just get rid of combat pool. You'd have a lot of more misses.

[Wounded Ronin]

I do really think we need a kickass suppressive fire rule, but I feel that to model that realistically you'd need realistic high rates of fire for automatic weapons. 10 rounds sputtering out over the course of 3 seconds isn't very suppressive compared to a real life FN Minimi going at 1000 rounds per minute.

[nezumi]

On the other hand, suppressive fire rules need to apply to truly low RoF firearms like standard handguns. It's not much use saying to your partner 'cover me, I'm going in!' when all that means is he'll be rolling two shots against a TN of 12+.

[Critias]

A fix for that (the low RoF of handguns) was once attempted by me, but that particular game fizzled and the house rule never really came into play. Basically the maximum rate of fire for a semi-auto was your Quickness score, or Pistols (applicable specialization), if you were just out to empty that mofo in someone's general direction -- and it turned into burst fire or full auto (depending on the number of shots fired), and followed all the normal rules, with doubled uncompensated recoil (like shotguns) to reflect the less-than-stable firing platform compared to a full sized weapon.

The lack of recoil compensation on most handguns anyways (compared to ARs and machineguns, at least) meant it wouldn't be horrifically effective (game breaking, at least), but it still gave you the option, at least.

As is, a maximum rate of fire of two shots per three seconds for anyone lacking magic or cyberware is just...obscene.

[Herald of Verjig...]

One time I remember suggesting a rule similar to the split spellcasting.

As a simple action, you can fire up to as many shots from a gun as you have dice in the appropriate skill. Split the skill between shots, and add combat pool up to the number of skill dice used.

So, with a skill of 6 and a SA pistol, you can shoot one bullet with a good chance of hitting as a simple action, 6 bullets with little chance of doing anything, or a few with a moderate chance.

I have not tested this, so I don't know if the increasing recoil penalties balance it against wearing down the target's dodge ability.

[Lazarus]

Didn't Raygun cover ROF on his website? I seem to remember he had a lot of cool rules on there for combat.

[nezumi]

I guess I just feel we need a stray bullet mechanic (still). I mean seriously, if I were running down a hallway towards someone, and the guy ducked into a doorway, stuck his arm out and aimed his gun in my general direction and started shooting, I would take evasive action. In SR, you just figure the guy is against a TN of 12+ and so is just wasting bullets.

Perhaps the solution is to require you allocate dodge test BEFORE the attacker rolls his attack roll.

[mfb]

sticking your gun around the corner and firing blindly, i would call suppressive fire.

[Critias]

Right, but you can only call it suppressive fire if they happen to be doing it with a full auto weapon.

[Crusher Bob]

One of the problems that games frequently run into is they do not model the physiological and psychological effects of combat at all, or if they do, they to a horrible job of it. So that fact that the adrenalin, increased heart and breathing rate, the sensory exclusion, etc are all kicking in combat situations greatly degrade hit rates.

For SR3, you could try modeling combat stress by adding something like (5- professional rating) to all ranged combat TNS (and maybe half that or less to melee combat). So the stone cold killers at professional rating 5 use the rules as written and can practically headshot someone every time, while the untrained civilians have trouble getting the gun pointed in the right direction.

This will lead to some interesting bits of rules fallout, for example drone will become much more relatively deadly as they don’t have the typical TN modifiers.

[mfb]

interesting, but hard to apply to PCs. you'd have to figure out how professional the PCs are, how much it costs to raise your professionalism level, how your level affects other stuff, and so on.

[Crusher Bob]

Just start all PCs at professional level 5 and let them sell down if they want to. As for cost, I dunno I guess that the cost of combat paralysis/2 per level? (don't have the books handy to check). The hard part would be figuring out the rules fallout.

[Kagetenshi]

Having them start at max and sell down is, unless you do the selling via Flaws, identical to starting them at zero and giving them x+n build points, where x is how many you were giving them before and n is the value of selling from 5 down to 0. It isn't much of a solution.

~J

[nezumi]

Err.. It seems like a fully functional solution, you've simply pointed out that there are two different ways of doing it.

So we can let PCs 'buy' their professional rating up to 5 (or whatever) at say 2 points a pop, and add 10 points to your build. Assumedly, all PCs will buy this up to 5 unless they have an awfully interesting reason why they want to suck at combat. Meanwhile, NPCs only have it based on what we feel is appropriate. On top of the standard modifiers, rent-a-cops have an additional +3 modifier on all combat actions (ouch), the Professor has +5 (double ouch), Lone Star has +2, excepting the real shock troops, and only the real violent sociopaths (legally or otherwise) play combat as written.

Ultimately, I've seen at least four different attempts to force 'combat realism' on PCs and NPCs alike (creepwoodrun being one of the best examples), and I for one feel all of them have come off as heavy-handed and too predictable. If only there were a way to get people to PRETEND their characters are frightened, confused and adrenaline-charged, even when the player isn't. Some way that we can sort of 'act out the part' during the game. Hmm...

[Kagetenshi]

[Critias]

Or you could just not worry about it because no one wants to be the schmuck who gets gut-shot and then spends the rest of the fight only at Moderate damage (but still in shock and unable to do anything), or the guy who flubs the roll when the lead starts flying and spends the duration curled up in a ball, crying.

We make fun of Creepwoodrun for a reason, gang.

[Kagetenshi]

I find a decent number of people want to be that schmuck. They're the melee guys who don't take Pain Resistance or carry big reach weapons.

(Not a slam on people who play that, my point is that a non-rare type of character will indeed have to bow out of most fights when they hit +2 from wound mods)

~J

[Critias]

If you're a good melee guy, you don't need Pain Resistance 'cause you won't get hit (in a melee, at any rate) in the first place. ;)

[nezumi]

*hides his rocker character with Unarmed 4, pistols 4 and no other appreciable combat skill*

[Kagetenshi]

Rockers need Clubs or Polearms.

~J

[Critias]

And leather pants.

[nezumi]

I went skin tight leopard print. The jacket is leather, and I didn't want to go full body leather.

[Kagetenshi]

If the Village People can do it, you can too.

~J

[Angelone]

[Wounded Ronin]

[Critias]

[Lazarus]

[mfb]

something like -1 TN on firearms test, and -2 CP.

[Wounded Ronin]

[mfb]

[nezumi]

Speaking from my shooting experience, my biggest problem was often holding the gun upright over prolonged periods, followed by compensating for breathing. Both of these would be trivialized, I believe, if I had cyberlimbs and a cyber torso. I've never shot under anything close to combat conditions, but I rather imagine those problems would be exacerbated, and that isn't simply a problem of the brain going crazy.

[Wounded Ronin]

I suppose that if we wanted to be very sensitive and detailed, we might exress these thoughts with the following hypothetical rule revision:

A Smartlink being used by somebody who doesn't have cyberlimbs to operate his gun with gets the -1 TN bonus when shooting since seeing little crosshairs in your vision is essentially like a longer-range version of a laser sight. However, if the shooter has a cyberlimb AND a smartlink then the smartlink software uses the cyberlimb to deliver mechanically precise and stable aimed shots at targets in the HUD, and so the -2 TN bonus is delivered, which is quite significant.

[mfb]

the best way to represent that would be to include the concept of fatigue--taking small amounts of stun damage just for being in a fight for an extended period of time. cyberlimbs, and especially a cybertorso, would increase resistance to fatigue.

[Stumps]

Every time a rule like the last two are created, it produces an eventual state of confined protocol and expectation.

There would eventually be Sam's everywhere with cyber-arms for no other reason than these rules.

As it is, it's poor enough that Smartlinks are like having an arsehole.

This is a bad result.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Angelone]

I think he's saying we all need smartlinks. Hopefully SL2s with rangefinders :P

[Kagetenshi]

Right. His point is that a Smartlink is not merely recommended but practically obligatory—the intersection between the set of characters who will use a gun with any frequency whatever and the set of characters who would be silly to not buy a Smartlink is almost the set of all characters who will use a gun with any frequency.

~J