Combat Realism, How to make SR3 a better system Options

[Lazarus]

I was reading on the SR3R thread and a lot of it is focused on making the game easier to understand which I think is awesome.

However one of the things that has always bugged me about SR is that combat is not very realistic. In fact I hate absolutely despise the initiative system in SR3. I hate combat phases where the slow people get to act before the fast person gets to act again. I'm sorry but if you've seen a real fight a master will go many times before a novice even has a chance to react.

Here's what I looking for in the way of suggestions.

1. What ways do you think combat, both melee and ranged, can be improved?

2. Same as with the Initiative system.

3. What about a better damage system? Or a hit location?

4. Anything else that you think needs to be addressed.

Thanks for your time in advance.

[Critias]

One easy fix (that you specifically mention) would be to knock Initiative back to the old days -- where you go in order, period. If Quick Quigley rolls a 31 for Initiative, and Slow Samantha rolls a 9?

31 - Quigley
21 - Quigley
11 - Quigley
9 - Samantha
1 - Quigley

Would be the order of combat. It's a simple fix, that doesn't change any stats innately... but be prepared for grouching from the soon-to-be-dead slow guys. It's more "realistic" if you really want your chipped to the max guys to feel like they're chipped to the max... but it makes reaction/initiative enhancements that much more important.

Other than that, my only big gripes with combat are the power/damage of handguns compared to long guns (except shotguns), and the number of skills required to really be good in a fight (Skill Groups are one of the few things I very much like in SR4). It's all out of wack.

[Link]

Lazarus, you should join the relevant SR3R thread, many of your questions have been asked and few of them answered :)
Critias' suggestion for initiative was one of those brought up for instance along with a system to spread actions evenly through the round so that 1 action wonders would act in the middle of the faster character's actions.

[Stumps]

1. Initiative: Critias pretty much hit it on the head. Just use SR2 initiative. It does exactly what you want.

2. Melee: "Realism"...well, tbh, the ONLY realisitic approach to melee in a gun fight, considering the speed, would be for the brawler to remove guns from being part of the fight. As long as guns are in play, anyone trying to throw punches is at a serious disadvantage realistically.
Even a master is quickly humbled by a common street thug that is 10 to 20 yards away.

If you are seriously looking for realism, then you would reduce melee into blow by blow motion in relation to the seconds of each round of combat. Truly, how many melee accomplishments can be done in a few seconds vs. how many pulls of a trigger?

Consider that, and it becomes readily apparent that if you really want realistic melee, you are essentially asking for a system that screws melee combatants most of the time.

Disarming, under this type of system, becomes the best tool for melee combatants; that, or flash grenades.

3) Damage system: Don't know what you would rather see here.

4) Hit location: Better jump in on the SR3 revamp or run a search through the forums. This one isn't that simple.
Making hit location systems in SR means resetting the values for armor and damage for weapons, as they are presently set for the vague clustering rule style of SR combat. Just simply using a hit location system alone would over power some aspects and greatly under power others.

[nezumi]

Alternatively, consider just getting CP2020. The system seems a little more complex, but it has a lot of what you're talking about. Melee combat really can't compare to assault rifles, there are hit locations, etc. There aren't extra actions like you get in SR, it's more like the d20 initiative style, but that can be fixed easily enough.

[Critias]

Extra actions are possible in CP:2020, you just take a to-hit penalty for every additional attack you attempt to take. And, with a high enough skill in a martial art, melee combat can get pretty ridiculously deadly (less base dice, but more reliable damage thanks to adding your m. art skill to the damage roll).

But, yes. My nitpicking nature aside, CP:2020 does have an overall more realistic set of combat rules than SR. Weapons have calibers and reliability ratings, every incoming attack has a hit location, body armor covers certain body parts (and not others), you name it. S'good stuff.

[Snow_Fox]

we did what critas suggested- used the old system, otherwise it starts to boog down. the 1st ed combat rules were a nightmare

[Wounded Ronin]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do a search for "Combat Realism". There have been a lot of excellent discussions that people really poured their hearts into. I remember that I wrote up an entire alternate melee combat system. It's a disservice for someone who is interested in simulationism/realism not to look at the past discussions that took place on DSF.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Lazarus]

[Wounded Ronin]

[Angelone]

One thing that really annoys me about movies and shows is how guy A will have guy B at gunpoint and walk right the hell up to him, within grappling distance. While yes, it is a natural reaction to get closer as someone is backing up. Stop and think, you have a ranged weapon, if anyone should be backing the hell up it should be you. It reduces the chances of you being pistol whipped into submission with your own weapon. It is very very hard to shoot someone who is punching you in the face not to mention someone who is grappling you.

EDIT- And what's with all the dialog shoot him already, twice, in the face. Or the back if it's an easier target.

[hyzmarca]

I remember an episode of Renegade (starring Lorenzo Lamas as Reno Raines, who was a cop and good at his job; but he committed the ultimate sin and testified against other cops, gone bad; cops who tried to kill him but got the woman he loved instead; framed for murder, now he prowls the bad lands; An outlaw hunting outlaws, a bounty hunter; a Renegade), in which Reno was teaching the endangered beautiful love interest of the week how to defend herself against gun-wielding assailants by slowly walking up to them and crescent-kicking the guns out of their hands, instead of backing away as most people tend to do.

That was funny. Reno always kicked the guns out of people's hands. Almost every episode, someone pulled a gun on him and he kicked the gun out of the bad guy's hand before beating the crap out of him.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Glyph]

I think one of the biggest gripes about SR3's melee combat system being an opposed dice contest is that if you have lower skill and wired reflexes: 3, all your speed does is get you beat up three times faster.

The obvious fix is to say that defending in melee combat always uses the full defense rules. You might add counterattack as an option, with the caveat that it costs the defender his or her next action.

The trouble with that "fix", though, is that it makes melee specialists less effective (which is only a problem if you have a problem with that).

[Critias]

You could also just make counterattacking add to the TN (instead of costing an action). So that the really good guys (and those Adepts with Centering) could still hand your ass to you while defending -- but for the most part initiative would matter a little more.

[Kagetenshi]

[Link]

[mfb]

one idea for ranged combat realism is to include a flat distance penalty in addition to the range category penalty--something like +1 TN per 100m or 200m. there would not be any method to counteract the distance penalty. this would reflect the fact that, even with a scope, longer distances are harder. slapping a badass scope on a sniper rifle should not make a 1km shot TN 4.

[Kagetenshi]

But it's so badass!

Especially when you don't aim!

~J

[Stumps]

Or you could seriously just take all melee and translate it to blow-by-blow moves.


Here's some logic for you.

In SR, every pull of a trigger is dissected into each pull of the trigger over the span of just a few seconds; meanwhile, in the same fraction of seconds that it takes another character to squeeze off only 2 pulls of a semi-automatic firearm an entire volley of hand-to-hand combat brawling is completed.

Baseball bat; 1.
Firearm; 0.

[mfb]

oh, yeah. it'd also be a good idea to allow semi-auto weapons to fire 'bursts' as a complex action, where you basically just tap the trigger as fast as you can. i'd make them less accurate than a regular burst (autofire/burst recoil penalties are also in need of major revision), and cap the number of rounds at, say, Qui.

[Kagetenshi]

If you've got ideas, I've got a thread for them!

~J

[mfb]

i think i posted all those ideas there. if not, i meant to!

[Critias]

I've long pondered a "you only benefit from scopes if you take an Aim Action" house rule. As it is, it's been a geas on a sniper-adept of mine, instead of a concrete rule for everyone (well, "you only get your hojillion extra Rifles dice if you Aim," rather).

It just seems silly to me how quickly you can snap off shots with giant sniper rifles, sometimes. At least their damage code is appropriately more potent than a handgun, though.