What happened to RPGs?, Industry in flux Options

[Zhan Shi]

I admit, I know very little (actually, nothing) about the publishing business. But as an outsider looking in, it seems that the industry has been going through a decade long malaise. Am I wrong? What caused it? Increased publishing costs? Lack of interest? Competition from videogames? I'm curious for input from people with more inside knowledge than I have.

[Adam]

That's a huge question; too broad to answer in any meaningful way, I think. Could you point out a couple things that make you think the industry has been in a decade-long malaise? That might make it easier to dive in, with a starting point that would be relevant to you.

[Zhan Shi]

I'll give it a shot. For one thing, I seem to remember game stores being all over. Now it's tough to find one. Companies going under and/or being bought out. Companies constantly promising release dates for product and then becoming silent; this has been a particular problem with Palladium and LRG. D&D coming out with "new editions" of their books every 2 years or so. A glacial publication rate; LRG again, plus Chaosium. Plus it seems that the pool of gamers has shrunk considerably. Am I wrong in my perceptions? I do like rpgs, but as I said I know nothing about the business itself. The malaise I described seemed to have begun in...say, 97 or 98.

[Adam]

Uhh... not sure how much you narrowed things down! ;-)

Let's see:

* Companies going under/being bought ... has always happened. There was also a huge explosion in the number of companies during the d20 boom, and a large number of the companies that are gone are companies from that boom, who didn't survive when the market contracted.

* Living Room Games: was never very big. I don't think they ever had any fulltime staff, and fantasy was a very tough market when D&D and d20 was big.

* Palladium has *always* had a history of announcing more than they can deliver, and they've had many problems over the last couple years after an employee embezzled a bunch of money from them.

* D&D: New editions every two years? I call bullshit. WotC released 3rd edition -- their first edition of the game -- in 2000, and 3.5 in 2003; 4 isn't due until 2008. I don't think that's horribly out of line, considering the number of editions and revisions that TSR published for the game.

* I don't really know a lot about how Chaosium operates, but I don't think they've been in particularly good shape since the mid-90s.

Some of the industry's problems have been caused by the collapse of some of the hobby distributors and consolidators[including Osseum, Fast Forward Entertainment, and Wizards's Attic, who all went out of business owing their clients -- game publishers -- money]

The flood of d20-based product in 2000-2003 also hurt, as it sold great at first, and then more and more product was released, to the point where it flooded fans and retailers; many retailers still have tons of d20-based stock that they'll almost certainly never be able to move. The number of game stores has certainly shrunk as a result of this ... and also of the result of the lack of a big hit CCG in several years -- the number of game stores expanded when Magic and Pokemon were hits.

I don't think the number of gamers has contracted, but we've also seen a larger number of board and card games coming out in recent years, and those have attracted players who are looking for games with less prep time. And, of course, MMORPGs have "taken" some traditional gamers, as well.

[I also think there's been a lot of good stuff that has happened and been released in the last 7 years, as well ...]

[Zhan Shi]

Oh, well. Guess it was just me. But thanks for the info.

[Adam]

No -- it's not just you, and there's certainly been a downturn in the industry [and in the last year or so, a bit of an upturn] I don't see anything where I'm saying that's _not_ true. I'm just outlining some of the reasons why it happened.

And some of it, I think, is a perception issue: now that everyone is so plugged-in with the net, it's easier to notice when a company is silent for a month or two, and as soon as one person notices it and asks on RPG.net or some other board, everyone knows.

As you say you don't know much about the industry, that indicates that your baseline knowledge may be off-base: you may be believing that some companies were always bigger [or smaller] than they were, may not understand the product solicitation/release cycle, etc. Misunderstandings in the base fundamentals of those areas will lead to odd conclusions being drawn.

[One of my favorite stories about fan miscomprehension revolves around a Pinnacle seminar, back when Deadlands was a big hit game, in the late 90s. One of my friends was writing for them frequently back then, and at the seminar, one of the staff members asked the assembled fans "How many staff do you think Pinnacle has?" The most common guess was somewhere between 40 and 50. Actual Pinnacle staff count at the time? 6.]

Edit: Also, I should note that I think it's impossible to talk about the "RPG Market" without looking at the market for card games, board games, and other associated merchandise, as they are largely sold at the same stores and by the same distributors.

[Zhan Shi]

True enough. RedBrick, for example. Three full timers, with maybe half a dozen contributors. I'm amazed they're able to put out anything at all. Now that's dedication.

[Adam]

Three fulltimers + half a dozen regular contributors is about right for a small-to-average-sized publisher of RPGs. It actually surprises me that RedBrick has so many; last I heard, none of them were full-time, and James had another full-time job!

[There is a big difference between "working full-time in the gaming industry" and "working full-time in the gaming industry AND making a living wage from it" ;-)]

[fistandantilus4....]

I know Grinder's done some writing for them. That guy has no free time! yeah RB impresses me too. Especially coming off of what LRG did with Earthdawn, and then what they're doing. Red brick rocks.

[nezumi]

I'm of the opinion that the RPG market is changing. I think more early teens are getting into video games instead of RPGs, but on the flip side more older people are continuing to play RPGs (hey, as an aside, I met one of the original playtesters from SR1 a few weeks ago when I asked to borrow his vacuum! Pretty cool. I'm debating if I want to return his vacuum or set it up on a shrine. Maybe I should have him sign my SR1 book :P )

The down side is older people are less likely to recruit, at least in person, and less likely to have more time for games in person. So, IMO, RPGs and their associated businesses take place a LOT more online than they did twenty or forty years ago (there are other contributing factors to that shift as well, of course).

[Platinum]

I personally think that we are on the cusp of a total revolution. There is going to be a shift from publishers and books to more of a software based solution. Dnd 4 is already hinting at this in a big way. Character sheets will be stored in an easily shared format, loaded and tracked. All of the players will be tied in, and with voice over add ons games will be played over the web, seamlessly. It will be a beautiful thing.

It won't be long till someone writes an awesome app for this. Hopefully things will be created in an open mod format. I think it would operate kind of like steam. You connect, buy packages and upgrades through your central account. Publishers will sell their wares for cheap, and other people will offer download packs. Heck, might even be able to have something like this run on xbox, over live.

The current model of game publishing is dead. It's successor has to only show up on the scene.

[Penta]

I'm not sure RPGs going entirely web-based is as good as you trumpet it, Platinum.

One: VoIP RPing...I'm not sure the quality is there, in terms of VoIP, for that. It seems to me almost as awkward as trying to RP over the phone.

Two: Text-based RP and traditional pen-and-paper RP require entirely different skillsets to be any good at it, from my experiences on MUSH/MUX/MOO environments, PbP and PBEM games, and the far more occasional tabletop game. Text-based RP needs someone with writing skills *and* improv acting skills to be really immersive - especially if it's realtime, like MUSHes/MUXi/MOOs are, or webchat RP or IRC RP is.

Three: Games take -longer-, in my experience, over the net than they do in tabletop gaming. What you might accomplish in an hour of tabletop RP tends to take 4-6 hours over the net, in my experience - hence why combat is something you either automate, sim-like, or avoid enitrely if you can, in real-time RP over the net.

Four: A lot of what draws people in to RPGs is hardly the RPG itself. It's all the stuff that happens on the sidelines over snacks and soda. It's possible to match that level of connection with someone you only know online, but it's harder. You lose a lot by not "breathing the same air".

[Platinum]

I didn't say it would be exclusively online... there will be two modes.

1. you will download content like steam. There would be an online store where you download modules into central packs. the module will let you download source book material and character creation rules. or let you download adventures, with all the maps, npc's, npc handouts.

2. there will be an option for over the internet that will incorporate voip, mapping tools, and text messaging/notes. This would also work on a network format for people with more than one laptop.

Voip integration will be only a part of the functional component. Automatic dice rolls, or TN determination, mapping, and pc/npc tracking. (imagine something to actually keep track of the bullets for your character) would all be integrated into this.

People love the human interaction when they game ... for example lan parties, but when you don't have anything else, online play will supplement. More and more people are not able to get out of the house. This will allow parents like me to stay home and look after the kiddies and be able to game while my wife is out and about.

[Zhan Shi]

I suppose I'm just old fashioned, but I much prefer the feel of a hardcopy book in my hands. I don't think I could make the switch to net gaming. But I may not have a choice, as net based stuff would simply be cheaper for an rpg company to produce (I think). No printing/binding, no dealing with distributors, etc.

[Adam]

I think we have a way to go before core and major supplemental gaming material is not published in print. We are, however, going to continue to see better tools for online gaming and materials and games made to work better with the online medium.

[Kyoto Kid]

...Have to agree with Zhan Shi on net gaming.

1. Just not into paying for each session, be it membership and/or ISP provider fees. I've already bought the books/PDFs that should be it. Also, WiFi has connectivity issues that will often interrupt a session.
2. Too damn cold & impersonal. Text on a screen just doesn't convey the same feeling the as a player mimicking a thick Scottish brogue when saying things "whiskey" or "arse!
3. Takes away the whole social aspect (related to a#2)
4. Can't hit unruly players over the head with the BBB.
5. I have to pay for the pizza by myself.

[Wounded Ronin]

[venenum]

[Kagetenshi]

[treehugger]

A few of my friends here in France work in the rpg industry.
We used to have two major companies in france (well by major i mean one that publishes more than one game before going bankrupt), but one of them wass bankrupt a few years ago.
The business is very hard, it takes so many hours to write an RPG book, but the number of books sold will barely suffice to pay the cover artists and the printers (and i'm talking about "successfull" RPGs).
John Wick, lead author of Legends of the Five Rings, a very successfull game a few years ago, once explained the costs associated with production. It was astonishing : basicaly, the number of free copies he'd give would determine his salary.
A friend that runs an RPG shop told me that the year D&D3 went out, he made as much money with their core rule book than with every other RPG sold that same year.
In my opinion, pen and paper rpg will disapear in the next ten years, because the industry isnt profitable enought :(

[Adam]

Small press RPGs are not going to die. Look at Indie Press Revolution for an online store/consolidator that focuses on "independent/creator-owned games" -- these guys may only be selling dozens or a few hundred copies [and in some cases, more, for sure!] but there is a large trend in [self-defined] independent game publishing to minimize costs and make games that are profitable. They're operating on a different scale from Catalyst, White Wolf, and other publishers, and I'm confident that people will be making "indie" games in ten & twenty years. The "industry" portion can die without the hobby of game creation dying -- and I don't think the industry is about to die, either.

[treehugger]

You're probably right Adam, but while Independant creations will shine in creativity, it will usually lack in quality and quantity where "big" houses have the upper hand.
As a lazy GM (one that has to work, have a social life and a women at home) i dont have the time to do the work that small companies dont do.
I like having good supplment material, good campaigns etc ...
Some games in the past could publish a new supplement each month.
As a GM, with financial ressources i must admit, i prefer a game i know that wont stop after their main rule book.
A hobby driven RPG industry would lessen the quality of our hobby :(

[Kyoto Kid]

[Ampere]

I can chime in for Chaosium's publication rate. They are a very small outfit. Literally a mom and pop shop. They publish as freelancers get material in to them.

[kzt]

IIRC, it's Charlie Krank in CA and one other guy does shipping, plus two or so others who are part-time and work remotely.

Greg Stafford, Charlie and the rest essentially chopped up Chaosium 10 years or so into 3-5 small companies. Charlie stuck with the Chaosium name and CoC.