Hacker vs Techno, How big is the gap? Options

[Abbandon]

Im excited to finally understand most of the matrix crap and am finally ready to make a hacker characer. I prefer technology over magic though. How screwed over would I be by not becming a technomancer?? Is there any way possable a normal cybered up hacker dude can compete with a techno? If not, are there any advantages to not being a techno?

I think the coolest character i can think of is some near death troll who has to get around in some kind of drone wheelchair because he can hardly move or anything. I can see it now.. After a mission he makes the ramp on the team van slide out and then his tank track wheel chair climbs the ramp quickly and he rotates in his seat so he is facing the right way and then everyone else piles into the van and the the troll is like:

"Hey guys when we get back to base who is cleaning out my crap bag?"

Or like a really little kid who is wheelchair bound and hopefully there is a chick on the team he could always be fantasizing about and making comments to lol.

[Earlydawn]

Technomancers are actually relatively gimped compared to standard hackers. The direct-to-brain damage weakness means that they can't do the same kind of endurance hacking that regular hackers do, and threading is also good, but tends to stack up the fade pretty quick. On top of that, you usually have to build them to be fairly weak in the meat. If I'm not mistaken, the primary strength that Technomancers have is their Sprites.

Their Echos also suck, although there are some excellent house-ruled ones that any fair and rational GM will let you take.

[nathanross]

How screwed over would I be by not becming a technomancer?? Is there any way possable a normal cybered up hacker dude can compete with a techno? If not, are there any advantages to not being a techno?

Hmmm, to be honest, I think your third question is most correct. There are SOOO many advantages to being a hacker, that they almost (if not fully) outweigh the abilities of a Technomancer.

I am going to stop at that though because until I have further play tested one, everything I say is going to be idle chatter. However, before I let go, I would like to again iterate that a Technomancer has to spend 350BP to get his shit up to hacker level (That is rating 5 in everything). This does not take into account that the hacker can get everything to Rating 6 within a few runs, or the incredible amount of cyber they have that boost about everything they do.

That said, hacker-adepts (that is adepts using improved ability for hacking skills), are so far the highest hacking dice pool that I know of, and Frank Trollman already calculated the difference between Technomancers and them to 1000karma. If this does not deter you, go for it. It may be a lot more fun, I have yet to find out.

[KurenaiYami]

Technomancers are actually relatively gimped compared to standard hackers. The direct-to-brain damage weakness means that they can't do the same kind of endurance hacking that regular hackers do, and threading is also good, but tends to stack up the fade pretty quick. On top of that, you usually have to build them to be fairly weak in the meat. If I'm not mistaken, the primary strength that Technomancers have is their Sprites.

Their Echos also suck, although there are some excellent house-ruled ones that any fair and rational GM will let you take.

+1

I've played both. I was a Technomancer first because it sounded awesome. Then I realized my limitations.

I became a hacker focusing in the same areas. Not only was I better at all the things my Technomancer did, I was also able to rig, use a real gun, be a marksman with mounted weaponry, and not die when things got physical! In fact, thanks to not being so gimped by relying on my Essence, my Cyberware made me the toughest character of the group!

[KCKitsune]

+1

I've played both. I was a Technomancer first because it sounded awesome. Then I realized my limitations.

I became a hacker focusing in the same areas. Not only was I better at all the things my Technomancer did, I was also able to rig, use a real gun, be a marksman with mounted weaponry, and not die when things got physical! In fact, thanks to not being so gimped by relying on my Essence, my Cyberware made me the toughest character of the group!

I used Daegaan's character generator and went the same route. Do you go with Wired Reflexes level 2?

[KurenaiYami]

I used Daegaan's character generator and went the same route. Do you go with Wired Reflexes level 2?

I'm yet to have a character without Adept, Mystic Adept, Magician, or Technomancer that doesn't have Wired Reflexes level 2. Just seems like it's too good to pass up. Unless they have Synaptic Boosters, but that's close enough.

[jago668]

I know the Adept face that I worked up was a flat out beast. All the social stuff they get added in on top of some bio/cyber and no credstick is safe. Though I would never thought of making an Adept hacker. Hrm....very interesting. *goes off to plot*

[Velocity219e]

I know the Adept face that I worked up was a flat out beast. All the social stuff they get added in on top of some bio/cyber and no credstick is safe. Though I would never thought of making an Adept hacker. Hrm....very interesting. *goes off to plot*

I remember someone theorising a long time ago (SR 2 or 3) about uh ... 'IT Adepts' with all their enhanced attributes / skill focuses on intelligence willpower and computer / programming skills

or similarly specialist researcher adepts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

starting out of chargen with 10 in computers or something nutty

[Ryu]

I consider a TM to be stronger in the matrix alltogether, but the key point is that the hacker spends less BP. And can, due to the everyone succeeds aspect of the current matrix rules, still accomplish everything, except on-the-fly hacking of any system without alert. If you play a hacker that demonstrates the later abilities, you will cause first GM frustration, second (for many GMs) GM retaliation.

On the real-world side the hacker is much better. You can delegate all kinds of technical support skills to a skillwire system, and be a competent rigger on top of a hacker. A hacker saves at least 80 BP compared to a TM (assuming you wanted high mental stats anyway). I prefer to buy a secondary skillset with that.

[CrystalBlue]

Think of TM's like this...they're the mages of the matrix. Where everyone has to be wired up to use the matrix, you don't have to be. And there are a lot of drains in skills, just like magic. And in magic...and in spells...and spirits. Unlike mages, however, TM's are still inferior to hackers at chargen. But when they get higher in karma and skill, they do have the ability to surpass the maximum of hackers. Unlike a hacker who's skills and programs are set in stone at 6, a TM can continue to raise their levels, getting even higher and making the matrix their virtual bitch. It does take a long time, and TM's are karma/BP sinks. But if you want to be the best of the best of the best SOME DAY, then take a TM.

Most people, as you can see, don't, just because they want to be effective outside of the matrix...which TM's aren't yet. A straight out-of-the-BBB TM won't do well. If you're ok with house ruling a few things, you could make them much more powerful by lowering the cost of something for them.

Anyway...yeah. I like mages and people that can use their brains without resorting to tech, so that's why I like TM's, myself. ^.^;;

[Ryu]

Think of TM's like this...they're the mages of the matrix. Where everyone has to be wired up to use the matrix, you don't have to be. And there are a lot of drains in skills, just like magic. And in magic...and in spells...and spirits. Unlike mages, however, TM's are still inferior to hackers at chargen. But when they get higher in karma and skill, they do have the ability to surpass the maximum of hackers. Unlike a hacker who's skills and programs are set in stone at 6, a TM can continue to raise their levels, getting even higher and making the matrix their virtual bitch. It does take a long time, and TM's are karma/BP sinks. But if you want to be the best of the best of the best SOME DAY, then take a TM.

Most people, as you can see, don't, just because they want to be effective outside of the matrix...which TM's aren't yet. A straight out-of-the-BBB TM won't do well. If you're ok with house ruling a few things, you could make them much more powerful by lowering the cost of something for them.

Anyway...yeah. I like mages and people that can use their brains without resorting to tech, so that's why I like TM's, myself. ^.^;;

TMs are not inferiour to hackers at chargen. TMs require that you understand the rules better, but if you do, they rule the matrix. The key problem is that they won´t really do anything else, at least not at chargen. I advise anyone who is petitioned to "improve" the position of TMs that they will see an effective rating 12 program from a starting TM anyway. Any fix to their weaknesses should take away some of the potential strength.

[Malicant]

No matter how uber a TM can potentially become in the matrix, any light pistol pointed in their general direction is a death sentence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dashifen]

Ryu nailed it: TMs are stronger than hackers if the player of a TM doesn't play them like a hacker. I cannot stop the current TM at my table. He's been playing for six months and for the first time I finally beat the threshold on his stealth when he's hacking. Use threading to the best advantage, use sprites to their best advantage, and be very, very careful to understand what complex forms you want to buy at character generation, which ones you're going to thread, and which ones you just don't care very much about.

[Dashifen]

No matter how uber a TM can potentially become in the matrix, any light pistol pointed in their general direction is a death sentence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Not necessarily. The TM at my table has sacrificed most of his agility and reaction to encumbrance and walks around more armor than his body x 2. That gives him about the same soak pool as anyone else....

[Tiger Eyes]

I'm siding with Ryu and Dashifen. Playing my first techno now, after years of playing only hackers (and before that, deckers). My dice pools were lousy compared to my previous hacker and I was pretty sure I had made the most gimped character ever. Then I registered me a stable of rating 5 sprites... and now I'm loving my TM. I think my GM is going to be in the same position as Dashifen... cursing that stealth rating as I slice through every system I come across. A hacker, at her best, will only have a Stealth rating of 6. Mine is 5 (yeah, same as a hacker out of chargen). Then I thread for +3, then I add in a rating 5 sprite... or two... and suddenly I'm at 18. Much of my downtime is spent re-registering my sprites, since I take drain on that every time, but my GM gives us a few days between runs, and that's all I need...

As for other skills, my TM is a very helpful support person. Put a machine sprite in the medkit and voila! Put a machine sprite in my teammate's motorcycle. In the smart-link system of their guns. In the team laundry machine... well, you get the point. Use a sprite to make unbreakable encryption on your team's communications. Then rip thru opposing teams' communications and screw with them. Use your abilities to help get that +1 to +3 AR bonus or extra initiative pass for the rest of your team (and of course, crash the opposing teams link's or better yet, overwhelm them with SPAM so they get their -1 to -3 modifiers)... I'm not so useful in combat (yet) but I make everyone else better...

But, it is true, TMs are karma hogs. Obscenely so. You do sacrifice a lot to be a matrix goddess. That's why the first action of the fastest person on our team is to push the TM down and behind cover during combat... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Dashifen]

The biggest thing I've seen for TMs, too, is a use of Edge for an extra initiative pass if they're working in the meat world. Since they rarely have cyberware for the extra IP and drugs have nasty downsides, Edge might be the way to go if you can eke out an Edge of 2 or 3 (or more if you have the points for it, but you probably won't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) ).