Way to keep players from looting corpses?, And I mean CONSTANTLY looting corpses? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Vegetaman]

Every group is unique, and the current group I GM for... We've done about 7 sessions so far, and it's gone really well. The guys all like it, and they seem to be following the rules and not meta-gaming. But the problem I do have is that they always stop to loot the corpses for spare nuyen, clips, and guns. They take EVERYTHING that isn't bolted down. I've tried to remind them that they're Shadowrunners, not common thieves, but they don't seem to hear me. They just duffel bag everything (usually a couple bags worth), throw it in the back of their van, and return to base with it and start calling Fixers and Contacts to pawn it off or add it to their own stash. I keep thinking (and hinting to them) that this will come back to bite them. But I am unsure of how to go about doing this, or whether it'd just be cheap of me and I should let them do this?

I mean, they'll loot weapons from anyone. Not just the random ganger on the street or at their own safehouse, which I don't mind because they're go-gangers. But when it comes to looting an SMG from a Fuchi Security Officer... I have to think to myself "are you SURE you want to do that?". I'd loot clips and nuyen and grenades... But NEVER the firearm. Short of a Panther Assault Cannon, anyway.

Also, as a side note, long time no see everybody. I see my last big batch of posting here was around end of year 2003... So it's been awhile!

In fact, an entire edition of Shadowrun. Though my group is currently still running SR3.

[jmecha]

I KILL IT! WHAT DO I GET?

[DTFarstar]

Stealth tags will end up getting them killed then. The corp they hit can track them from the tags in their employees weapons unless they are in a wi-fi blocked area or they take the time to find all the stealth tags and erase them(Is that ever possible?)

Chris

[jago668]

Well every piece of gear a corp owns is likely to have at least one rfid tag in it. So taking so much stuff they are going to be loaded down with tracking bugs also. Let them roll back to the hideout and have Mr Corp HTR come knocking. Also rather than nail them, have their fixers and contacts get nailed. It'll be tough to do business when nobody will buy from you because they are scared of getting arrested or killed. This can add in with making jobs tougher as they get bad rep.

Then there is the usual where Johnson pays them to go in quiet and come out the same way. No footprints. You start stealing gear that is a footprint, and you don't get paid.

[ArkonC]

Every group is unique, and the current group I GM for... We've done about 7 sessions so far, and it's gone really well. The guys all like it, and they seem to be following the rules and not meta-gaming. But the problem I do have is that they always stop to loot the corpses for spare nuyen, clips, and guns. They take EVERYTHING that isn't bolted down. I've tried to remind them that they're Shadowrunners, not common thieves, but they don't seem to hear me. They just duffel bag everything (usually a couple bags worth), throw it in the back of their van, and return to base with it and start calling Fixers and Contacts to pawn it off or add it to their own stash. I keep thinking (and hinting to them) that this will come back to bite them. But I am unsure of how to go about doing this, or whether it'd just be cheap of me and I should let them do this?

I mean, they'll loot weapons from anyone. Not just the random ganger on the street or at their own safehouse, which I don't mind because they're go-gangers. But when it comes to looting an SMG from a Fuchi Security Officer... I have to think to myself "are you SURE you want to do that?". I'd loot clips and nuyen and grenades... But NEVER the firearm. Short of a Panther Assault Cannon, anyway.

Also, as a side note, long time no see everybody. I see my last big batch of posting here was around end of year 2003... So it's been awhile!

In fact, an entire edition of Shadowrun. Though my group is currently still running SR3.

It depends largely on the players, maybe they feel they need the extra money, maybe they think the effort is worth the extra money...
Maybe they're just the looting type...
I wouldn't make an effort to try and catch them on common equipment, but it they take things like Panthers, it could be traced back with a lot less effort...
So either they have to make more effort to cover their tracks, or it might just track back to them...
You could also just lower the price they get for stolen items if the characters want to dump them quickly...
And if they hold on to them till they get a decent price, they're sitting on stolen equipment, which can create all sorts of problems...

[kzt]

Are you paying them enough? If not, fix it.

If you are, the location toys in the guards weapons should result in a conga line of airborne strike drones by the time they get to their "secret hideout".

[Vegetaman]

Are you paying them enough? If not, fix it.

If you are, the location toys in the guards weapons should result in a conga line of airborne strike drones by the time they get to their "secret hideout".

I actually think I'm paying them too much. And for what they usually make off of "pirated goods", it's not even enough to live off of. How much can you really get for a dozen Ares Predator pistols, anyway? (Well, a bit of extra money, but still).

But yeah, I figured that big corporations would have tracking chips in their guns. I pretty much intend to send a strike team to their "headquarters" to shake them up a bit. Or the unmanned drone idea, I like that one... Maybe take care of fine assortment of motorcycles.

But every time they gun down a room full of people, they loot the corpses. It just drags the game down and kills the mood. They happen to be sitting on some stolen goods right now, actually. Some pretty nice SMGs from some corporate security guards that got shot up in a nasty getaway attempt (they rushed it, but still took the time to loot the corpses, which almost cost them the mission as the back-up guards showed up).

I've given them enough warning, though. Time for me to drop the proverbial hammer.

[fatal2ty]

I don't give my group time, they want to loot the corpses, but I always throw something at them.

things along the lines of "hearing sirens approaching", "Your Fixer messages you, its urgent", "One of the guys you killed had a cranial bomb set to go off when he dies"

among other things, I rarely let them loot a corpse unless it has storyline value(getting a commlink or something), and when they do try to loot further, I throw in other obstacles like some of those mentioned above.

I also make sure that Organlegging is a serious crime, in fact, there was a couple times a contact who would have paid well for cyberlimbs and bioware where undercover lone star and the group had to fight there way out.

needless to say, my group doesn't loot much anymore

[KCKitsune]

maybe one of the poor slags they just offed had enough time to pull the pin on grenade and roll on top of it. I mean the team's most likely dealing with other things before they start looting... just give 'em a High Explosive ™ Surprise!

[Whipstitch]

The problem I have with the RFID tag everything bit is that it begs the question of why the McGuffin isn't always RFID tagged every time. Like every good GM tool, it's something best used in moderation.

Anyway, as always I'm going to yet again suggest non-violent ways of discouraging this or at least making something interesting out of it rather than suggest you disembowel the PCs (I must be the softest GM on the planet. Aside from the swarms of LMG equipped drones, anyway). Perhaps their Fixer gets annoyed with them for constantly unloading their Mickey Mouse drek off on him all the time. Sure, he's been polite about it up 'till now, but if he's a big time fixer he's probably got a few more cost effective ways of spending his time than arranging to unload hot Predators of the back of a truck for chump change-- I mean, really, he likely makes his money from arranging runs and knowing a guy who knows a guy whose cousin Eddie arranges for crates of this kinda crap changing hands, not by adding a half dozen potentially hot SMGs to his inventory. And if they have to go through less reputable sources than a good Fixer to unload things, well, then it's just that much easier to introduce complications and maybe at least make it so the loot sessions lead to mini-runs later. Just try to keep thinking positive; maybe looting isn't fun as it happens, but if they can't be discouraged maybe you can at least redirect it into something that IS fun.

[apollo124]

But every time they gun down a room full of people, they loot the corpses. It just drags the game down and kills the mood. They happen to be sitting on some stolen goods right now, actually. Some pretty nice SMGs from some corporate security guards that got shot up in a nasty getaway attempt (they rushed it, but still took the time to loot the corpses, which almost cost them the mission as the back-up guards showed up).

I've given them enough warning, though. Time for me to drop the proverbial hammer.

Ummm, "every time they gun down a room full of people"? This happens a lot? Rather than concentrate on the piddly loot, how about the fact that they seem to be mass-murdering maniacs that the Star and probably others are gonna be hot to find?

[Vegetaman]

I have pulled the sirens approaching one before, and they know not to wait around for Lone Star to show up (fast learners, they are)... But they don't know that Organlegging is possible (nor that you could make big nuyen doing it), so I don't mention it to them. I probably ought to have them get ambushed while looting corpses by some stronger enemies. And then obviously make those weapons have chips in them that will be traced. And no, their headquarters doesn't have anything special. It's just a low level place in the Redmond Barrens. So the odds of it getting shot up and nobody caring about it... Are probably pretty high. I mean they have all sorts of nice locks and stuff and they have some defense items... But they are dead in the water against unmanned drones and things of that nature. Also, duffel bags full of loaded weapons make a lot of noise and could possibly go off. So many things I could do to make all hell break loose... And our next run, I do believe SOMETHING of that nature will happen.

[Vegetaman]

KCKitsune - Okay, I like that idea... Perhaps I'll throw that one in sometime.

Whipstich - Well, I haven't pulled that card on them yet, but I well may. But I like the idea of their fixer getting mad at them for unloading all the hot merchandise on him constantly. In fact, that'd be an easy way for them to get busted if they keep doing it. And they'd be out a fixer for awhile (which would suck for them, undoubtedly).

apollo124 - Not all the time, but whenever they kill anybody, they go and loot the corpses. The room full of bodies applies to the hit they did on a gang HQ and they gunned down several gangers at a meeting.

But yeah, I'm sure Lone Star is about ready to drop the hammer on these guys. They've definitely gotten wind on their antics. I feel like I've let them get away with too much so far, and it's time to give them a future reality check.

[Whipstitch]

Actually, I'd advise against treating organlegging as potentially being big money in your campaigns, especially since you clearly find the loot angle to be more trouble than it's worth already. The way it'd work in my games (it's really yet to come up) is that SINless corpses aren't worth much for runners because the middle man makes most of the cash and justifies the low payout ot the runners by pointing out that the SINless are generally in poor health and that they lack medical records so it's hard to put a good price on the corpse (and ghoul chow isn't worth much). A dead SINner, on the other hand, is by definition a "hot" item, and while it has medical records, they're also practically doing you a favor just by disposing of the corpse. I imagine the Tamanous are successful because they employ really poor groups like lower tier gangers who work for peanuts (or for scraps if they're ghouls) and actually make most of their money arranging shadey deals in hospitals and morgues for the benefit of a few rich people who for whatever reason can't wait for that new vat grown tissue or WIMP to mature. There is some big time shadowrunner level money to be made, but it's in the kind of jobs that involve straight up wetwork targeting people with ultra-rare physical qualities and other case-by-case situations that are actually full fledged shadowruns rather than just churning bodies by the truckload.

[Wounded Ronin]

One time have there be a NPC with a cranial bomb set to go off 5 combat turns after he flatlines.

Also, guerilla fighters might leave their dead enemies' boobytrapped bodies lying around.

[apollo124]

How about giving the group a mission where killing the opposition isn't an option/isn't desirable? Like bodyguarding, or transporting a (very squeamish and easily upset) person from point a to point b, make getting out without leaving evidence of their presence a condition, have shedim possess the corpses while they are being looted(I really like this one), if the party doesn't have magical backup then a spirit could do nasty accidents on a whole bag full of explosive items

[mfb]

well, two questions: first, why do you want them to stop? i'm not saying you're bad for wanting them to stop, or anything, it's just important to know what it is about their behavior that makes it an issue for you. is it a matter of "shadowrunners shouldn't do that"? is it too much trouble to count up the value of all that junk and figure how much the runners can get for it? what it is about looting dead enemies that you find problematic?

second, why are your players doing it? maybe they're used to D&D, where looting after every encounter is pretty much required; they don't understand that "shadowrunners don't do that". maybe they're just greedy bastards, trying to save up for bigger and better goodies.

[Vegetaman]

One time have there be a NPC with a cranial bomb set to go off 5 combat turns after he flatlines.

Also, guerilla fighters might leave their dead enemies' boobytrapped bodies lying around.

Again, very good ideas. I like this. The cranial bomb sounds pretty awesome, as does grenade booby trapped bodies. I think next time we play, I am really going to raise the stakes of the game. They've become complacent with getting away with stuff they shouldn't for too long, and I have warned them about doing it... So perhaps it's time to give the chain a yank. All that 'illicit profiteering' they've been doing on the side may come to a sudden head.

Whipstitch - Definitely. In fact, I remember one time they were doing a run through the sewers and I sent a pack of hungry ghouls after them... Not only was that a great running fight through the dark sewers where they didn't know where they were going (but I had made a handy map beforehand, so I could tell them if they came to a junction with options), and when they were done they had NOTHING to show for it. Other than they were out of a lot of ammo. And I like to be mean and make them use their silenced weapons. Seriously, that Defiance T-250 Shotgun or Remington 950 are really nice... But if you fire it, you're not going to be "under the cover of secrecy" anymore.

EDIT:

apollo124 - Yeah, my team only has one magic user... I really should give them a mission where they have to use nothing but stealth, and if they blow their cover, they won't get paid.

mfb - Well, I don't mind it too much, except it's not very Shadowrunner like. They're fresh out of D&D mostly, despite the fact that I hail Shadowrun being the superior game, they do like to loot the corpses at every turn. There's too much opportunity for that shiny SMG to be the downfall of your mission or come back to bite you later. The idea is to get in and out as fast and discretely as possible; not going in and shooting up the place willy nilly. The math is easy and inconsequential, it just bogs the game down to do this.

EDIT 2:

My team pretty much thinks they're king of the roost and can do whatever they want. They need to know they're just little fish in the sea, especially since they're only 7 sessions into the game. I think a good visit from Lone Star would wake them up. And since their headquarters is easily traceable using the chip tag or a busted fixer for moving hot (or tagged) goods selling out his low level contacts who got him into the mess in the first place... Would be a good lesson in that you should never trust anyone. And you don't go shooting up and looting everything you run across. It's bad form for streetwise runners.

[Adarael]

I've never had to deal with this before, because my players (and myself, I must admit) rarely loot anything that isn't rare or high-value. Like, we'll steal sniper rifles, drones, vehicles, and other stuff with major value, but not just random pistols and credsticks.
BUT.

I'd suggest impressing upon them the value of speed. Make them have to choose between looting and failing at time-critical events. Maybe they have to choose between looting and failure of a mission. Maybe there's a timed bomb. Maybe reinforcements are on their way. Maybe another team is hitting the same location at the same time.

One of the most elegant solutions I've seen came from the GM of my current game - I'm not running it, for once. We were in an EPA facility jacking some nanotech samples and whitepaper, and I'd cracked this on-site secure data storage site. Inside was just tons of paydata - shit I could sell for tons and tons of money. I could have downloaded it, except for one small fact.

Another team was hitting the same location while I was downloading what we'd sent to get, and they were not subtle. They had a helicopter and were tossing autofire and toxic wave spells like it was the apocalypse. Naturally the EPA (which had UCAS troops guarding the facility) escalated in kind. I heard reinforcements coming over the comm channel I cracked, and all sorts of data being sent back to the local garrison. So I had to make a choice: get greedy and possibly killed, or cut my losses and book with my team, having gotten the paydata.

Very elegant way to get the impression across that it was time to leave. Especially since any damage we'd done (which was admittedly almost none at all - not a shot was fired by us) would get covered up by the other team's activities.

[Vegetaman]

The only time-critical event I had them screw up was when they were attacking the gang headquarters, there was mention between two gangers in the hallway they were about to enter about the possibility that another gang was coming along to rumble with them. The idea being that they should get in and out before the other gang got there.

Of course, right as they finished killing the gang leader and his "muscle" lackeys, the other gang had already started up a dramatic firefight outside and were finding the reduced numbers of the gang a great way to storm into the building. I actually applied enough heat to them (including molotov cocktails, frag grenades, and pistol fire) to make them decide they should find a back exit and escape. I should try things like this again. Press the time issue; put them on a timetable.

I think in any run the best my character ever stole was a motorcycle of a go-ganger to make a quick getaway as he got cut off from the rest of the team. Made for an interesting story, at any rate. Of course he had to ditch the bike the first chance possible, but still. Time is of the essence.

I already can see our next session shaping up already.

[mfb]

then, yeah, i'd go with suggestions related to making the looting not worth their effort. have them get caught by reinforcements while looting, have looted gear get traced back to them, and so on. and don't be afraid to hit them with a big stick--when the reinforcements come, make it serious reinforcements, and make it clear that this is only the first wave. when the runners' loot gets tracked back to them, have them lose that safehouse and all the gear in it, kill some of their contacts, etc.

personally, i don't have a problem with looting, as long as it's done intelligently. if my runners kill some corporate strike team or enemy runner team out in the middle of the barrens, hell, there won't be anything left of them--the weapons go in my arsenal, the bodies to to a street doc, and anything i can't sell goes to my ganger buddies as a bonus to this month's payment for watching my place. looting, in my book, is a very shadowrunner thing to do, because it allows you to make a profit from cleaning up evidence. if you have time to do it, i'd do it--but usually, there isn't time.

[Adarael]

Also, I'd like to point out that sometimes to dispose of bodies properly, just stealing the whole corpse really is the best way to dispose of them. My street sam's doctor has diced more corpses than I care to count, just because I didn't want to leave them where they'd be found.

Edit: Beaten to the punch by mfb. Yes, exactly what he said.

[Vegetaman]

They're definitely not very good at clean-up. They don't think of evidence leaving or disposing, they're just seeing green (or whatever color nuyen is) Y signs.

[ArkonC]

They're definitely not very good at clean-up. They don't think of evidence leaving or disposing, they're just seeing green (or whatever color nuyen is) Y signs.

Seems to me it's not the looting that bothers you, but the fact that they loot ad&d style, SR style...
I could be wrong though...
But having their base of ops raided, having the 2nd wave arrive while they are looting wallets, make the risk of stupid looting outweigh the benefits, like it should...
Either they'll adapt or they'll die, which is as it should be...

[Whipstitch]

Glad you liked the annoyed Fixer suggestion. When roleplaying Fixers it helps to remember that many of the smart ones are really service providers and talent scouts more than they are retailers. Much like a good hotel or casino, a Fixer is willing to be inconvenienced in many small ways to keep people coming in, but at the end of the day it's all in the hopes of getting a big score either through a truly worthwhile item to fence or a big payday from arranging a run. Sure, a Fixer gets things for runners and fences their gear, and yes, there is some profit in it, but Fixers take on such tiny tasks like selling a dozen used Predators mostly to keep everyone happy. After the bazillionth small deal it really is perfectly appropriate that their Fixer explains that he's doing them a favor when they bring him such trivial things, not vice versa.

[Vegetaman]

Seems to me it's not the looting that bothers you, but the fact that they loot ad&d style, SR style...
I could be wrong though...
But having their base of ops raided, having the 2nd wave arrive while they are looting wallets, make the risk of stupid looting outweigh the benefits, like it should...
Either they'll adapt or they'll die, which is as it should be...

This is pretty much it exactly. They're careless. They set off 10 KG of C4 in a building in Redmond Barrens. I mean, yeah it's "The Barrens", but... Start setting off explosions like that all over the place - people are going to take notice and be pissed at you. Their list of enemies is growing longer by the day. At least have a dozen gangs and two megacorps so far. And I'm pretty sure they're not allowed back in The Wanderer, after being swept up in a brawl there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[mfb]

Edit: Beaten to the punch by mfb. Yes, exactly what he said.

y'know, you never did follow through on that promise threat you made about what you'd do next time i instaposted you. *bats eyes*

[Cain]

In addition to some of the very clever suggestions made, I'd suggest putting them in a time crunch. Combats generally last less than 10 seconds clock-time, so if they only have 15 minutes to pull off a run in, they won't be able to loot the bodies. You can also do my favorite trick: Pull out a watch, and run it in real time. It really ramps up the pressure.

[Fortune]

I suggest sitting the Players down and describing to them just how you envision the Sixth World as working. Give them a solid World view for them to base their characters' actions in. A small (or not so small) out-of-character session of this nature can go a long way to putting everyone on the same page when it comes to games played mainly in the imagination of a group of individuals.

[nathanross]

Just about everything I wanted to say has already been said, but to reiterate:

1. Remind them that this is not D&D and they are not in a dungeon.
2. Throw them into RFID hell. They're the hot new thing in CorpSec.
3. The clock is ticking. There is not enough time to go through everyone's pockets.
4. Pay them enough money that they don't feel like they need the 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) the guards are carrying.
5. If organ legging is an issue, drop a cow on the troll that is carrying all these bodies around. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Blade]

* Remember that carrying tons of guns/clips/other can be heavy and cumbersome.
* Security guards' guns (especially smartlinked guns) can be "locked" so that they only works when used by the owner (biometric check for example), and can even have anti-theft/anti-tamper systems which triggers electrical shocks when someone else tries to take it. Of course, such systems can be bypassed or removed, but it'll take time to do it on the spot.
* Nobody will want to buy used corporate security guns that were stolen during a recent shadowrun, or maybe at 10% of the price, especially if these guns are common.

[Drogos]

I just have to say that this topic reminds me of the time our street sammy, who had in a single game session pissed everyone off, got shot up in a random encounter and we decided to pawn his body off to the face's tamanous contact. I still roflol on that one.

Yeah, looting = bad. But since you are running 3rd ed (not sure everyone here caught that), the RFID suggestions don't work for anything other than high level corp strike teams. Now, unless your team is PARANOID careful about the gear they loot, you could have various people turn stool pingeon on them to the corps or gangs they ripped off. Just like the characters have contacts, so too does the opposition. Heck, you could even make it a roll. Every contact they approach with the deal, make some sort of intelligence roll of the entity (ALA Corporate Enclaves) and mark the successes. Higher the success, the greater the knowledge of the runners. Works for Gangs and Corps equally well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Herald of Verjig...]

Heck, you could even make it a roll. Every contact they approach with the deal, make some sort of intelligence roll of the entity (ALA Corporate Enclaves) and mark the successes. Higher the success, the greater the knowledge of the runners.

At this mention, I remembered something. Corporate Download has a chart giving attributes to compare the megacorps. One of the categories, intelligence, is just about getting info of various sorts. This includes hunting runners who get annoying. So, by that chart, Novatech (low dice example) would have 5 that it gets to roll every time the runners cause trouble and they get to use the same info from a contact rules (from Companion in SR3) to get a street address and some names to beat up and retrieve goods from.
Most groups other than megacorps would probably have only 1-3 for that roll, but an exceptional non-mega might have 4 or 5. Still, roll once each time they tick off a group, situational modifiers if they are annoying their fixer, and then punishment.

On the side of fair GMing, I suggest getting ahold of Corporate Download (or just re-reading it) and then announcing that it has mechanics in place to track corporate activities and that you'll start using a few. If they improve, then just make some OOC comments about making it tough for their enemies to trace them down.

[masterofm]

Our GM had us roll up alternate characters after a few runs. Nothing says caution like telling them "Your character could get slagged." If they continue to mess things up kill off their main characters then when they switch to their backup characters tell them to make another batch of alternate characters. In this way you can actually do more then keep warning them, and at the same time show them their characters are not sacred invincible death machines. I think the biggest difference between D&D and SR is that in the end if a character dies in SR the 10-20 karma of one character is not a game breaker where as if a D&D character eats it then the level difference will generally be too crazy (but they can always be rezzed and ya da bla...)

Show them their characters are not invincible and I think they will be more cautious (maybe might switch their minds over to the SR perspective.)

[Whitelaughter]

RFID tags can be fried without too much difficulty, so that's not much of a threat.

Rather than have a Fixer getting annoyed, you could go the other way and have the Fixer demand an obscene number of guns/commlinks; the Fixer explains that the local market is glutted but that he's got a few inquiries from bigger fish. If they have to get 5,000 guns, looting the corpses won't cut it - they're going to have to plunder an armoury/factory. That should lift their sights a little.
That has the other advantage that if successful, you can cut to a news story from the sticks, off an uprising somewhere armed with stolen weapons, or maybe a backward tiny nation has suddenly handed out free second hand commlinks to the populace. Having an influence on world events panders to player's egos, and by making it minor and indirect, it doesn't hurt the game world.

[nezumi]

I run SR3, so RFID tags aren't an issue, however bugs are. My group loves to loot, and really, I don't mind, as long as they can haul it out. However, there are a few reasons they don't loot every thing every time:

1) Looted gear generally isn't worth a lot. Their safehouse literally has a stack of AKs and SMGs, and they have more predators than they care to count. I've stopped counting ammo available to them because they have crates of it. They have so much stuff, they really can't sell it all. And what they DO have generally sells for about 5-10% of its book cost (so the $450 pred is going for somewhere between $30-45. Whoo!) So not really anything special there...

2) Gear has electronics and may have bugs. This isn't so common with guns (because hey, who cares if they have yet ANOTHER handgun worth $50? They already have eight per person). But armor with electronics gear likely has something to tell someone where the guy who was just recently wearing that armor is going. Same with cyberware. This means they can't take anything unless they have the time to properly check it for bugs. If they're on a run, they really don't have that time.

3) Gear has weight. I do have characters in my group with strength 10, but even that doesn't go so far when you're looking at twenty firearms and two hundred pounds of ammo. Unless the party has a vehicle right there, the majority of loot is going to have to be ignored.

4) Looting takes time. My group started their career spending half an hour looting bodies in the middle of the run. The people who didn't wait to loot escaped, those who did got caught. Since it's the first run, they got a criminal SIN, forced to accept any jobs Lone Star throws their way in the future for free, and possible mysterious cyberware. If it was their second run, those characters would be dead. They don't waste time looting mid-run any more.

5) I pay my characters. They make, at minimum, $20k per person per run. That's quickly approaching $50k per run now that they're a little more experienced. They have money for gear and the like without selling guards' old underwear on the street. They do still pick up gear they don't have yet (assault cannons, HMGs, security armor, etc.) to save them from having to buy it in the future, but that's to be expected.

So in the end, my runners almost never seriously loot during the run. Not worth the time or risk. If there's a shoot-out at the end of the run in the barrens, I consider all that gear a gift (assuming they don't blow it up first). They've come away with some serious military hardware doing that, and they really do enjoy it. They like earning that MMG sitting in their safehouse. And the dozens and dozens of ingram smartguns really hasn't done anything to detract from game play either.

[Blade]

RFID tags can be fried without too much difficulty, so that's not much of a threat.

Yes, but the gun can refuse to start if it doesn't find the RFID tag with the correct passkey/licence number/whatever. That can be bypassed, but it needs some work for the PC or for the fixer/fence.

[Vegetaman]

Our team's mage ended up blowing hand of god in the second session because she decided that wearing body armor was unbecoming of her. I tried to argue the point, but it became clear that I was getting nowhere - until the lead started flying. When you only have a body of around 2 or 3... You don't eat lead very well.

As for pay, I started out at around 6K nuyen per run and moved up to around 8K nuyen. And the last run I had a bonus 5K nuyen for a special segment of the mission (which they botched; since he was supposed to come back alive... not dead).

[Whipstitch]

Our team's mage ended up blowing hand of god in the second session because she decided that wearing body armor was unbecoming of her.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

That is priceless. I play mages almost exclusively, and if anything, I'm now considering overloading slightly on armor via formfitting armor worn under my normal gear. After all, my mages already depend more on Invisibility, Spirit support and sheer offense than Agility and Reaction anyway plus armor and body is the only thing that will save you if you ever fail a surprise check. The way I see it, feats of athleticism, leaving cover and lugging around heavy objects are just reasons to take Levitate and Plant/Earth Spirits with the Fear power.

[Nightwalker450]

My team has only looted once so far. And that was at a meet with a gang that went downhill. The reasons for the looting is because the hostage we had been sent to retrieve was well into overflow, and they had just barely got him stabilized. There was also still another 15 minutes until our doc member would arrive to patch him up sufficiently to move. So while one person kept an eye on the hostage, the other started checking out what he could find. We got a motorcycle, and 4-wheeler, a katana, and maybe some odds and ends. But part of the reason for low loot was a fairly large use of High-Explosive grenades... So we trashed about 8 other vehicles, and a bums barbecue grill (damn I wanted that grill...).

Otherwise what runner really has the time to spend 5 minutes, let alone half an hour looting bodies while patrols are on the way, or backup. With constant connections between people even a gang is likely to send out an SOS to fellow members if stuff gets rough, and it only takes one member with cybereyes or glasses with a camera built in to get a picture to let fellow gangers know who did them in. True wage-slaves, and their security guards are likely hooked up to Biomonitors that the company keeps tabs on. That way they can jack up your insurance premiums as soon as you slot that BTL, or partake of some narcojet. That and a Biomonitor is a great way to monitor your people for sleeping on the job, coming to work intoxicated or performing illicit activities in the janitors drone closet.

[Bearclaw]

It sounds like the real problem is that the entire party, GM included, is forgetting that this game is set on Earth in 2070. If you kill someone, it is murder. Now there may be RARE times when a corp will decide it's better to let it go than keep persuing it, cops will NEVER do that. There will be an active investigation and a large file on every body cleaned up off the street. If a criminal (Shadowrunner) is dumb enough to carry around evidence of a recent murder, he deserves what he gets. Which is a couple of years in jail waiting for trials and appeals and then a lethal injection.

There is a reason why mob guys drop the guns they use in a killing at the scene or throw them in a river some where. They don't want to be caught with evidence that will send them away. Shadowrunners are generally scruffy looking multi-racial gang looking groups that will attract attention from the Star. If your guys aren't getting shaken down occasionally, you are not coming close to depicting the world you're playing in. If they get hassled, and have a piece, it'll probably just get taken. If it turns out it was stolen from a dead knight errant security guard all of Lone Star will know who you are and have pictures and prints. And that will never go away. 6 years later, in a random traffic stop, your face will come up and you're done.

[It trolls!]

Apart from their loot being to hot to sell, the market might simply become saturated. From your posts, I take that the majority of stuff they take is fairly common like mass-produced handguns and cheap commlinks.

[nezumi]

If you kill someone, it is murder.

Of course, this also depends on the nature of missions you're on. So far my group has only had two missions where the corporation would ever even admit a crime had been committed. Ares loses it's super-high-powered laser weeks before release? There is no way in Hell they're admitting to anyone, ESPECIALLY Lone Star, that someone successfully broke into their facility and stole stuff. It's a sign of weakness. It invites further crime (since people know you can break in and get away with it, since someone else has already done it successfully) and it invites stockholders to take their money elsewhere.

Secondly, in my Shadowrun, lack of evidence has never stopped either LS or KE. If they nab you and think you're a shadowrunner, they'll either bring you in to court and fabricate evidence, or they'll nail you there and save themselves the trouble. The only way carrying looted gear around is going to make a serious difference is if you're pulled over, the cop notices the gear, asks to see it, runs a check on its serial number, and the runner wasn't dumb enough to file the serial number off earlier. If you're nabbed, you're nabbed, and how many more crimes you're connected to doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

[Vegetaman]

But since I'm running SR3, we're still back in around 2063. And yes, it's about time for the shakedown, but as far as in-game time goes, it's only been maybe a two weeks or so, tops. So there is still plenty of time to give them a reality check. And yes, they will be stopped by Lone Star or Knight Errant security and shaken down. Especially if I decide their next run should be against Ares. And they would be so walking into a perfectly set trap if they looted a single firearm... Or in fact, if they shot anybody at Ares. That would just be amazingly bad on their part, and they'd probably be botching the run.

[nezumi]

And they would be so walking into a perfectly set trap if they looted a single firearm... Or in fact, if they shot anybody at Ares. That would just be amazingly bad on their part, and they'd probably be botching the run.

I'm confused. If KE knows they're coming and presumably knows they've done or are in the process of doing runs against Ares, why should they care if the party is going in carrying looted equipment or not? You're talking about a run on Ares property, where they walk into an ambush by KE security, and somehow KE cares about having concrete evidence or not? What am I missing?

[Vegetaman]

I'm confused. If KE knows they're coming and presumably knows they've done or are in the process of doing runs against Ares, why should they care if the party is going in carrying looted equipment or not? You're talking about a run on Ares property, where they walk into an ambush by KE security, and somehow KE cares about having concrete evidence or not? What am I missing?

I'm saying if they looted a firearm from Ares, it'd probably be tagged and it'd be easy to nail them that way. Conversely, just opening fire in an Ares building would be suicide for these guys. Knight Errant wouldn't necessarily know they're coming, nor are they a part of a corporation that the team has pissed off. Yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Of course, setting up the run to be a trap... There's something I haven't done yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Blog]

I try and loot every comlink unless I have specific reasons not to. Then again i'm the group hacker (technomancer) and like to have toys.

Their rep will be effected by there murderous streak. Heck on big blatent hint is to have the Fixer discuss this at one of their meets. "Ok here is a job I feel you will be good at _blah blah blah_. Oh, and you might want to start keeping the body count low; I've had to pass you over for several good runs on account of your 'history'"

They do realize that in many sectors police have a response time of under 5 min right? Heck in many corp areas its less then that and a HTRT.

[Vegetaman]

I try and loot every comlink unless I have specific reasons not to. Then again i'm the group hacker (technomancer) and like to have toys.

Their rep will be effected by there murderous streak. Heck on big blatent hint is to have the Fixer discuss this at one of their meets. "Ok here is a job I feel you will be good at _blah blah blah_. Oh, and you might want to start keeping the body count low; I've had to pass you over for several good runs on account of your 'history'"

They do realize that in many sectors police have a response time of under 5 min right? Heck in many corp areas its less then that and a HTRT.

Yes. And I have informed my group of most of this thanks to this topic, as well as the fact that I have scrapped a lot of what I had planned for next session and replaced it with "the help of some guys who are far less forgiving GMs than I am". Now they're worried. But I might just use this line when giving them their next run, as it definitely fits. I think they're just too used to D&D and don't follow the "be discreet" and "time-table" based idea.

[nezumi]

I'm saying if they looted a firearm from Ares, it'd probably be tagged and it'd be easy to nail them that way.

So you're saying the characters in your group aren't intelligent enough to remove a tag from a stolen weapon?

Conversely, just opening fire in an Ares building would be suicide for these guys.

Why's that? My group is currently shooting a bunch of people in an Ares building, and it looks like they're going to escape. They just planned ahead and had a very, very quick get-away route.

[Spike]

Aside from the 'pay them more' aspect....


Imagine this scene:

The runners head to their Fixer's 'office' after dropping the mcguffin with the Johnson. They are battered, brusied, tired, but triumphant. And they have a duffle bag full of random loot... apeice.

The Fixer looks up at them, sighs and waves them over to some open shipping crates in the corner.

"Just dump it all over there." He says tiredly.

"But... don't you want to see what we got? Count it out and figure what its all worth?" the Face asks eagerly, looking forward to wrangling for as much as they can get.

"Nope. Just dump it in the box. Here... certified credsticks all loaded up with the same as the last half dozen times you've dropped this drek on me. " he rolls the money accross his desk at them and turns back to his Desktop Secretary ™.

"Hey! We got some good shit here, man. Worth a lot... how can you know what its worth before we even get here!?" The Sammy protests.

The fixer turns to him, sighs again, louder.

"You punks just don't get it, do you? This drek ain't worth half what I give you. Maybe at first, sure. But between cleaning it up, sending it out, never mind the market saturation on cheapass guns... it ain't worth a damn thing. I'm lucky to break even. So I made a deal with (insert target of latest run) Ares to ship back their goods at cost. They pay me just what I paid you. You're happy because you got paid. You ARE happy, aren't you? You DO like working this town, right?... I'm happy because I don't have to sweat how to dispose of half a ton of random bloody garbage every other week, and ares is happy because it keeps their losses down whenever you clowns decide to take a crowbar to the furnishings.

Speaking of which: Ares is sending a Johnson by to talk to you guys. Part of my deal, they have a job that is right up your alley. He'll contact you in the next day or so."

-fade to black-

[Stahlseele]

it depends . . if you have our group hitting storage facilities or factorys of some known to us corp we try to find out what ELSE is in there aside from the obvious mcguffin and decide if it'S worth the hassle to steal more . . once our GM decided that the next target would be defended by motorized infantery or something like that . . several paramilitary vehicles for example . . i think he realized the error in his way when i ordered all of my mechanic contacts to make room for some vehicles to be disassembled *g*
Generally, we loot intelligently . . we search the bodies, a quick once over, if we find something interesting(radios, key-cards, keys, ID-Badge or something like that)we go YOINKS and it stays where we put it untill someone takes it from our not moving bodies . . if it's weapons, we generally let it lie there, because most of the time, those weapons will not be loaded with gel-ammo and equipped with silencers and the such and we're generally wearing form fitting clothing . . yes, even the troll, as much as people may hate me for that mental image *g* so there's not much room to carry things . . if we find something we WANT . . like security armor or a PAC or something like that, we TRY to loot it . . untill we get stuck on the way out because the damn thing won't fit through our hole in the wall or something like that . . once i had to use a freshly looted MMG to do close combat with it which ruined the weapon <.< . . once i looted a Sniper-Rifle after having thrown several Grenades at the shooter and the GM told me that the weapon was SHOT to hell by them . . i still looted and used the broken remains as blingbling for my character O.o . . make it INCONVENIENT for them to take things . . if they don't have a bag, they will have to hold it in their hands, if they won't hold it in their hands and they stick it where the sun don't shine it can just as simply fall out at any given hectic moment . . if they sneaked in through a small hole/tunnel ask them how they plan to get that Ares Great Dragon through there . . if they want security armor, remind them that some probably bloody body is at the moment wearing it and they know about how long it takes for them to get out of/into their work-clothes . . and then double said time and ask them again if they wanna spend 15 minutes or so stripping the guards while they are probably live on the air as cameras watch their every move . . be cREATIVE . . and of course, there's allways the option of GM:"you know what happens, when a body totally relaxes? EVERY MUSCLE? especially, when the body is dead? there's a puddle forming beneath the guy you just dropped . . and even you can see that it's not all blood" Player:"ick, yuck, i ain't taking that . . aah poo . . it's shot to hell . . it's in pieces . . i could use this armor as a fishermans net!" GM:"yes well, what do you expect if you hose the guy wearing it with lead?"

[Vegetaman]

So you're saying the characters in your group aren't intelligent enough to remove a tag from a stolen weapon?

Why's that? My group is currently shooting a bunch of people in an Ares building, and it looks like they're going to escape. They just planned ahead and had a very, very quick get-away route.

They don't even check for them is why. There's one character who could do it, as he has a bunch of weapon specializations and electronics skills, but they just bag up everything. They don't give a crap what it is as long as it looks like it is worth money. It's stupid oversight on their part. That's what is going to bite them in the ass.

They're too used to fighting gangers on the street. They don't know how corporate security works. With the back-up... And the back-up of the back-up. And the larger weapons and better skills and armor. The problem is these guys will walk into the front door shooting just to get to their objective. Not for "escaping".

[Adarael]

Our team's mage ended up blowing hand of god in the second session because she decided that wearing body armor was unbecoming of her. I tried to argue the point, but it became clear that I was getting nowhere - until the lead started flying. When you only have a body of around 2 or 3... You don't eat lead very well.

I am aghast that this person is still alive. Granted, hand of god makes my amazement manageable, but still... This opinion is just crazy.

[john_doe]

Well, you did say that they just came from D&D land to SR land.

That line of thinking is definitely D&D-esque (on the looting that is). "Sure, just throw it all in my magic bag of holding, and we'll sort it out later when the pizza arrives."

D&D is happy, candy land where the characters are expected to succeed.
SR is hard-times, oppression land where the characters are not necessarily expected to fail, but the odds are definitely against you.

Playing SR like a D&D game should get you killed very very quickly in your running career.

That's how i see it anyway.

When we were still playing SR3, our GM made sure most of the "common" goods were bugged to high-heaven. Although the character i was playing at the time was an ultra-paranoid, and would destroy any and all gear that made it out of a run for fear of being tracked. The rest of my runner team didn't care for me all that much after that, but i was the only one who knows "decking" so they kinda needed me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

Spike, if my fixer ever did that to me, I'd shoot him right there and leave town. I don't need a fixer that turns around and sets me up with the guys I just hit on a run. Talk about setting me up for a double cross... At least I'd be honest enough to shoot the fixer in the face.

They don't even check for them is why.

Ah... Yeah, nail 'em. Just make sure afterwards they find out how they were caught.

[Particle_Beam]

The best solution is still to talk to your group and tell them that you think they shouldn't necessarily do this anymore, at least for SR. Everything else will just very highly lead to frustration.

[Zombayz]

Yes. And I have informed my group of most of this thanks to this topic, as well as the fact that I have scrapped a lot of what I had planned for next session and replaced it with "the help of some guys who are far less forgiving GMs than I am". Now they're worried. But I might just use this line when giving them their next run, as it definitely fits. I think they're just too used to D&D and don't follow the "be discreet" and "time-table" based idea.

The DnD thing give me an idea. Mainly to do what we did in DnD to track the person that killed the rogue: We used bound outsiders (elementals) to put together a list of similar attacks that happened, and then looked at where the attacks spread out from. Yeah, we got a pretty damned big area, but it didn't take us long to find the group that did it. A corp could do the same thing.


Fake Edit: on a side note, you can be sneaky in DnD. We went through an entire campaign arc with a body count of 5.

[Vegetaman]

I am aghast that this person is still alive. Granted, hand of god makes my amazement manageable, but still... This opinion is just crazy.

She took a bullet in the chest from a Colt L36 that a gang member was using. Granted, it's a weak gun... But 2 BOD and no armor? That's suicide. And she blew her rolls against it, too.

john_doe - Yeah, a lot of standard D&D fare will get you slain in Shadowrun. D&D usually ends up with you overcoming the odds in whatever universe against the all powerful "powers that be". Of course, in Shadowrun, you can get fragged by the random joe blow on the street if he scores a lucky shot. Just like in real life. But they've had several weeks of getting out of D&D land and into Shadowrun land. I think I've given them ample time and warning.

The first run I tagged along one of my own characters to help point the team in the right direction as a guide (and we were short some players that session; we got up to 5 runners last game, which was hellish to keep track of). Plus, I accept walk-ins to our games, and I have a handful of pre-made character sheets they can use and I just work them into the story or invite them to the meeting with Mr. Johnson. It's a lot more open than D&D, but the stakes are higher. But anyway, in the second mission, I had my character get caught up in a firefight with corporate security along with the team's troll... And my character definitely got shot to hell. We're talking like 6 boxes of damage, and he was pretty much a walking tank of cyberware and street samurai. The troll had to drag him out of there. It was convenient to both write my character out of their campaign since they didn't need my guiding voice in the game (and it worked out very well to have him there, actually, and it was a lot of fun - nobody seemed to have any problems with it, despite my reservations of doing it in the first place), and to let the characters know that if my character was not safe... Neither was theirs.

[It trolls!]

The best solution is still to talk to your group and tell them that you think they shouldn't necessarily do this anymore, at least for SR. Everything else will just very highly lead to frustration.

Yes but that's less fun for both parties than conceiving an ingame solution. Next time, they geek someone they won't think "Better not take his stuff, maybe it'll get the Star on my ass!" but rather "Better not take his stuff, it'll piss off the GM!" I say make it, so looting corpses isn't that attractive anymore either by stymying their ability to sell the stuff or by getting them burned. If you choose the latter, make it so, they get away with a black eye this time.

[Particle_Beam]

Depends. After all, every ingame action might piss off the Gamemaster. As I read it, Vegetaman doesn't like it that his players act so "D&D"-ish and wants to tone it down or even eliminate it completely for Shadowrun. Doing it sometimes might be okay, but it's the mindset that the players have that bothers him. It's quite clear then that a nice talk is the first step to solve such problems. Everybody should have fun, after all. If the players have been made aware of that, but still want to continue this behaviour, and they're okay with possible (and plausible) consequences for their characters, then everything's fine and dandy.
Sometimes, people don't really know such things, and it can be quite hard to fathom such behaviour as not appropriate in a completely new game setting with different rules, I guess.

[DTFarstar]

Knight takes Bishop DO NOT READ THIS


I really enforce time limits in my games, they were recently hired to "proactively protect" a guy. IE- kill the mages he had pissed off before they ritual magicked his ass to death. They took a little too long finding the place and when they got there the time limit was ALMOST up(I had been forced to start keeping track of combat turns) They started down the elevator shaft- two levitating and two with gecko gloves- and another runner who had been hired to seal up the place as there had been shedim and the occasional other nasty thing seen leaving it starting to fuse the elevator doors together. The runners decided to abandon their search for the mages to go back up and deal with whoever had sealed off the exit. It just so happened that that took just enough time for the ritual magic to go off. If they had continued forward then they would have gotten there just in time. As it is, the fought him and he injured them and they found out their protectee was dead so they called it off and went home to like their wounds. Now a Master Shedim and a ritual circle have their auras memorized and have a reason to dislike them(they kept the guy alive through several previous castings.

Obviously there is more to this story, but I just was trying to say that there is a serious time limit on most missions in my games down to the point that I track combat turns when it gets down to it, and since they know this they never feel rushed, but they never feel as though they have time to just wander off either.

Chris

[Vegetaman]

Yeah, I'll probably give them a friendly reminder before game that anything you take in this game isn't like D&D. You can get burned. Badly. I've let you get away with too much stuff so far, and you're going to find that doing a lot of "hot shot" stuff will make you some very big enemies. Tread carefully, and try not to loot everything that isn't bolted down... Or you'll regret it.

And if they don't heed my warning, then it's fair game for what is to come.

[nezumi]

As an aside, if they have no experience with Shadowrun, it might not be a bad idea to give them the common sense edge for free - basically, when they do something stupid, you just ask 'are you sure?' in that voice that suggests that no, they aren't sure. I am a little more merciful on new players, and avoid nuking them while they're still figuring stuff out. A flaw of mine, I know.

[It trolls!]

I'd probably have some Lone Star Detective track them down through the people, they sold stuff to, have them taken in and propose them a deal: Do some dirty work on the side, for example get rid of someone too slippery for the Star to catch and the evidence will magically vanish from the evidence locker. If they get caught again, they probably won't be so lucky.
Just a pretty standard idea what you could do to them if they don't behave.

[Vegetaman]

As an aside, if they have no experience with Shadowrun, it might not be a bad idea to give them the common sense edge for free - basically, when they do something stupid, you just ask 'are you sure?' in that voice that suggests that no, they aren't sure. I am a little more merciful on new players, and avoid nuking them while they're still figuring stuff out. A flaw of mine, I know.

I have done this as a friendly GM, but they tend to ignore my warnings 9 times out of 10. I have one player that once the drek hits the fan always goes "wait, I don't do that" and I just laugh, because it's too late then, chump.

[Stahlseele]

ah, yes, the good old common sense edge idea . . worked wonders on one of my more air-headed buddies . . nowadays he has the best ideas and does indeed pay attention . . try it, it's probably worth it . . add in a little scary when you ask the question though . . a small diabolical smile, the evil eye, the bad voice, the drawn out syllabies . . the works! . . in Shadowrun, the Characters should be paranoid . . start making the PLAYERS paranoid ^^
edit: *grmbl* out-posted <.<

[Vegetaman]

Yes. Definitely will be making them more and more paranoid. They pretty much think they're invincible. Not to be an evil or mean GM, but I have their character sheets... They're not that powerful. And they even tried desperately to power-game, too.

[kzt]

Of course, this also depends on the nature of missions you're on. So far my group has only had two missions where the corporation would ever even admit a crime had been committed. Ares loses it's super-high-powered laser weeks before release? There is no way in Hell they're admitting to anyone, ESPECIALLY Lone Star, that someone successfully broke into their facility and stole stuff. It's a sign of weakness. It invites further crime (since people know you can break in and get away with it, since someone else has already done it successfully) and it invites stockholders to take their money elsewhere.

They can certainly report other stuff without admitting what happened. The Star would certainly have people willing to add serial numbers to the hit list for a few bucks. When Aries corporate security shows up to bail them out....

[kanislatrans]

Scrounging is an art form and should only be practiced by true artistes!

I tend to grab stuff on runs but follow some simple rules:

1. If it takes more that 5 seconds to grab and stow it I probably don't need it.

2. Just because It looks important doesn't mean it is.(like the run were we grabbed two crates which ended up full of cyberdecks. This would have been a nice haul in earlier versions but in SR4 they don't t even make good lunch trays) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

3. toys ain't worth dying for...ever!

4. If I can't clean it, I don't take it. It ain't doing me any good if I'm sitting in jail cause some Lone Star hacker followed the little glowing numbers to my doss.

I Have found our GM(PrimeMover) keeps things in line by just not giving any one enough time to "shop the kill zone" usually we are running for the vehicles as soon as the goal is acomplished. We have learned the hard way that if your found poking through a pile of corpses the authorities for some reason think you may have had something to do with the crime.(if you can imagine that)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Vegetaman]

I Have found our GM(PrimeMover) keeps things in line by just not giving any one enough time to "shop the kill zone" usually we are running for the vehicles as soon as the goal is acomplished. We have learned the hard way that if your found poking through a pile of corpses the authorities for some reason think you may have had something to do with the crime.(if you can imagine that)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Indeed. It also leads said dead people's friends to believe you are guilty and warrant being shot at. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[apollo124]

One thing I haven't read anyone mention yet.. Maybe have the team run into the Docwagon HTR team who is responding to their clients lying dead. If they are caught looting by the docs, I'm sure some hilarity will ensue, and God forbid they try to shoot at the HTR team.
Also of note would be that Docwagon would probably notify local security where they are going to aid clients, and extra security would naturally show up to make sure the Doc's aren't wandering around where they shouldn't.

[Vegetaman]

Yeah, I haven't had Doc Wagon show up. Man, the runners would be in for a bit of a surprise there, wouldn't they.

[Adarael]

You know, I think I mentally edit out the existence of DocWagon at times...
Yes. That would be fucking amazing, especially given how DocWagon is armed.

[Vegetaman]

You know, I think I mentally edit out the existence of DocWagon at times...
Yes. That would be fucking amazing, especially given how DocWagon is armed.

I think I only ever gave one of character a DocWagon Basic Contract. I should really start to utilize this. The runners would be ill-advised to shoot at an incoming Doc Wagon team.

I forsee all hell breaking loose on this next run. It's going to be a giant quagmire and the action will be heated. And knowing them, there will be lead flying... When it probably isn't in their best interest to do so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Spike]

Spike, if my fixer ever did that to me, I'd shoot him right there and leave town. I don't need a fixer that turns around and sets me up with the guys I just hit on a run. Talk about setting me up for a double cross... At least I'd be honest enough to shoot the fixer in the face.

What? Told 'em the guns and other shit was useles but paid them anyway? Or got them a new job? Where do you think Johnson's come from? At least this time they know exactly who they'll be working for upfront...

'shoot 'im in the face on general principle' is what you do when the fixer sells you out.



Of course, the entire point of the scene is to drive home just how low rent their reputation is from all the junk they drop off on his desk. I may have overdone it/wrote too boldly how little the fixer actually cares for their antics at that point. But since I get paid to actually do stuff other than write shadowrun missions I guess I should get a mulligan (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Rajaat99]

My players are big on their rep and what NPC's think about them. We play downtime, if you don't this won't work for you too well. Have the player's friends, contacts, etc.. get wind that they're looting their kills and have them bring it up and make fun of them for it. It is kinda silly when you think about a professional killer "looting" his victims.
By the way, DocWagon idea is wonderful.

[Vegetaman]

My players are big on their rep and what NPC's think about them. We play downtime, if you don't this won't work for you too well. Have the player's friends, contacts, etc.. get wind that they're looting their kills and have them bring it up and make fun of them for it. It is kinda silly when you think about a professional killer "looting" his victims.
By the way, DocWagon idea is wonderful.

It's true. Their rep on the street is definitely going down for being careless and... Well, shooting anything in sight. And then looting it. It's bad form for a runner.

[kzt]

If your street rep is impacted, the cops also know. And the people who find runners for johnsons. And probably some corp security types.

[nezumi]

They can certainly report other stuff without admitting what happened. The Star would certainly have people willing to add serial numbers to the hit list for a few bucks. When Aries corporate security shows up to bail them out....

Ares won't show up to bail Lone Star out. Remember, Ares and Lone Star are in direct competition for the same contract. Lone Star wants Ares to look like they can't manage their own house and Ares wants Lone Star to curl up and die. Renraku might share information, but Ares will want to keep everything in-house as much as possible. That means strike teams might move out on their own, illegally, to hit the runners, or to pull the runners over where they're somewhere else KE has a security contract, but KE isn't going to entrust LS with anything that might come back and show the world how ineffective KE is.

What? Told 'em the guns and other shit was useles but paid them anyway? Or got them a new job? Where do you think Johnson's come from? At least this time they know exactly who they'll be working for upfront...

'shoot 'im in the face on general principle' is what you do when the fixer sells you out.

No, the part about 'hey, this is trash, I don't need it, accept my terrible payment or drop it off somewhere else' is spot on and I agree with it. The 'I just paid your group $200k in cash to do this highly illegal activity, but to recoup the $20k I paid for all your trash I went back and told Ares who is responsible for breaking into their facility, and hey look, they're coming to meet you tomorrow!' part is where I would have no choice but to disappear for a while and kill the fixer as a material witness (although it is cute, and I did chuckle reading it).

[kzt]

You misunderstand. Ares security shows up to bail the PCs out of jail, with a "tip" to the desk sgt for services rendered. Without mentioning certain minor details, like they are ares security. It's amazing how often that has worked in the real world. People never stop to think that maybe their enemies might be willing to bail them out....

[nezumi]

Ah, so you're suggesting someone in Ares would, unofficially, talk to someone in Lone Star to add the information on those guns on the 'watch out for these guns' list. Then, when/if LS picks up someone attached to those guns and brings them in, Ares gets a a tip-off on the sly, waltzes in and says "oh yeah, these are our guys, here's their paperwork", busts them out, and right there has a person they know did these other runs, know is experienced, and who really needs to kiss up if they want to survive?

Sharp. I like that.

[Vegetaman]

It's an interesting idea, but unfortunately a bit beyond my current group. Both because of their inexperience for Shadowrun and in terms of the grim-look on the future and corporations as a whole. But, I do like that idea...

[tallknight]

Another suggestion I haven't seen covered is that if they (your players characters) are living in the barrens or some other down and out location, well, lots of other people are trying to scrap by also. If the players antics are known and recent target corp hires a bunch of mercs to move the squatters out by force if necessary. Not only are the neighbors gonna be pissed, but when the mercs (who are paid by the corp to take out the characters) start blowing the drek out of their 'hideout.' Said mercs are hired by a Johnson, just like the PCs are so the mercs have no idea who their employers are. And if the PCs are out doing another run, they get to come back to A) their hideout blown to shit B) a bunch of mercs waiting in ambush for them to return C) squatters willing to sell them out to get rid of the 'high profile' problem children (the PCs)
They (the PCs) might reconsider being so high profile, we are ubergoons who can take on anything. If you have a high end merc team take them on, I think they will quickly change tactics, or else might reconsider their tactics with their new characters after their last set was murdierized for stupidity.

[Spike]

No, the part about 'hey, this is trash, I don't need it, accept my terrible payment or drop it off somewhere else' is spot on and I agree with it. The 'I just paid your group $200k in cash to do this highly illegal activity, but to recoup the $20k I paid for all your trash I went back and told Ares who is responsible for breaking into their facility, and hey look, they're coming to meet you tomorrow!' part is where I would have no choice but to disappear for a while and kill the fixer as a material witness (although it is cute, and I did chuckle reading it).

All I'll willingly cop to is sloppy writing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)


Normally I would see a fixer TOTALLY doing this side deal with a corp johnson to return loot at cost/above street value. And then said Johnson deciding wether or not to ask the fixer for the team for a job (preferrably one where all guns blazing, crowbar everythign of value out of the place is expected...).

But in NORMAL circumstances the fixer would NEVER tell said runners that's how they got the new job. But I was trying to make a point: looting isn't really appreciated. If you want to start making money selling stolen guns, plan a run to steal guns... from teh factory or something. Used guns are worth less than new guns and are more problematic. Besides, if you PLANNED to steal enough guns to make it worthwhile, you'll bring a truck and and forklift... not a duffle bag and all you can snatch.

THATS what the pro's do.

OF course, now I feel like I need to write up another scene, where the fixer tells them since they like stealing guns so much, why don't they go knock off this Ares Warehouse... first they'll need a tractor/trailer rig....

[apollo124]

Another idea I thought of while at work today (I drive a forklift, which doesn't require 2 brain cells to operate), is picking up with the idea someone had of the fixer trying (unsuccessfully) to unload the crap. He could have the team take several crates of the lousy guns and misc. stuff down to CalFree, dropping it off to his pal Sparky, to aid in the resistance against Saito. This plants the idea that the local market is saturated with this junk, and if they don't take the hint, well, the Azzie resistance could always use more guns too.
My 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) worth.

By the way, thanks all for the kudos on the Docwagon idea.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I'm curious why does it bother people if there PCs loot dead bodies?

I guess I don't see it as particularly unprofessional to loot, and not particularly professional not to loot. What is the issue exactly. I'd suspect most criminals are always on the look out for ways to make extra money. Yeah taken to extremes where people are looting bodies when a response team is on the way seems bad, but heck I'd think at the very least rifling through someone stuff is a good way to gather intel.

[Negalith]

Kill off a character’s contact. When the group investigates, let them find the suspect group of thugs armed to the teeth with gear the party sold off in past adventures. Let them see first hand the social effects of introducing illegal gear into the underworld economy.

[Odsh]

If you're paying them enough, I don't really understand why they would do such a thing. Weapons are quite cheap, and reselling stolen/used weapons is not worth the trouble IMO. On the other hand, if they like playing like this, why not. As long as they take care of any tracking mechanisms and hide the weapons in a safe place, I don't see why that would be a problem.

But every time they gun down a room full of people, they loot the corpses. It just drags the game down and kills the mood.

Well obviously they wouldn't do it if they didn't like it.
Maybe you could prepare a list of gear for each NPC and just hand it over to them when they loot the corpse, that wouldn't take too much time.

I had a similar "problem" when I GMed Vampire the Mascerade for a group of players that liked to capture any enemy vampire they didn't kill and literally stash them away in a cellar with a wooden stake in their heart. Killing another vampire by drinking all his blood can earn you some of the vampire's powers, but is forbidden and leaves some traces in the murderer's aura. So they knew they couldn't drink those Vampire's blood without serious consequences, but liked to collect them anyway, just as you would collect rare bottles of wine and never drink them. They had alot of fun with it, and that's the important point to me, so I played along.

[Drogos]

At this mention, I remembered something. Corporate Download has a chart giving attributes to compare the megacorps. One of the categories, intelligence, is just about getting info of various sorts. This includes hunting runners who get annoying. So, by that chart, Novatech (low dice example) would have 5 that it gets to roll every time the runners cause trouble and they get to use the same info from a contact rules (from Companion in SR3) to get a street address and some names to beat up and retrieve goods from.
Most groups other than megacorps would probably have only 1-3 for that roll, but an exceptional non-mega might have 4 or 5. Still, roll once each time they tick off a group, situational modifiers if they are annoying their fixer, and then punishment.

On the side of fair GMing, I suggest getting ahold of Corporate Download (or just re-reading it) and then announcing that it has mechanics in place to track corporate activities and that you'll start using a few. If they improve, then just make some OOC comments about making it tough for their enemies to trace them down.

Right, RIght, I was thinking Download and posted Enclaves. I have not read Enclaves so I have no idea what is in there. Sorry for the confusion.

[Vegetaman]

I don't get why they bother to loot. When I pay them 8000 to 10000 nuyen per run, they really do get chump change for their pistols. I mean, 20 nuyen per piece of a dozen guns is... Pretty worthless. And extra ammo? Most people do good to use 3 clips per run, and have at least 300 rounds stockpiled (some of them went stir crazy and got like 1000-2000 rounds), so why pick up the extra 15 bullets? Also, it's the whole concept of clearing out everything and looting everything instead of focusing on the mission. You have to get in, do your job, and get out. Typically as fast as you possibly can while completing your objectives. That's the "professional" Shadowrunner way, IMO.

That's their other problem - they feel the urge to clear every room and loot every body. All the time. They're too stuck in D&D for their own good. I cannot press this issue of "time" to them enough, apparently. Until I have it bite them in the ass, I guess.

[Drogos]

Looted weapons do make for great disposable firearms. I would imagine that the investigative techniques in use today would have come a long way in 60 yrs and if so ballistic evidence would nail most runners to the wall. But that's just me playing devil's advocate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[fatal2ty]

Looted weapons do make for great disposable firearms. I would imagine that the investigative techniques in use today would have come a long way in 60 yrs and if so ballistic evidence would nail most runners to the wall. But that's just me playing devil's advocate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That right there I can see as a good reason to loot.

having a disposable pistol with someone elses prints on it used in an assasination can completely throw lone star off your trail, and when they finally realise they're chasing a dead guy, you're long gone or in hiding

[masterofm]

How about instead of reaching for the stick every single time after a run is over and you have a little time, try laying your cards out on the table?

If they are used to D&D maybe you can show them why this isn't D&D and straight ask them what they did that could get them caught. If they don't come up with anything tell them in detail how they screwed up and what could get them killed at the end of each run. After a while when you bring the stick at least they know it's coming.

A 400 bp shadowrunner wouldn't be a 400 bp character if they didn't know what would get them seriously killed. Change their mindset from D&D to SR without just hurting them till they realize the difference, and when you hit them tell them why. If you make the game not fun (by constantly hitting them with the stick) they may not want to play SR and go back to D&D.

[Vegetaman]

Well they like Shadowrun better than D&D because I don't hit them with the stick very often, and when I do I don't make it obvious - I make it pre-planned. Though I have told them that if they keep stealing stuff they're just making my job easier and it's going to bite them in the ass. It's to the point now where I should at least get a free swing to let them know the difference, at any rate. They're too used to being what they consider "gods among men" when really they are little fish in a really big pond.

They like my Shadowrun better than the other guy's D&D because he's hell bent on making the world kick the crap out of all the players and making his enemies invincible and get all the uber bulldrek while constantly shafting the team repeatedly. The same crap over and over and over again. I keep Shadowrun interesting and bring a fresh storyline and events every week that build. And little events in one can affect later ones immensely.

[masterofm]

Yes but telling them what they did wrong and letting them know for a while about the do and do not of SR will at least immerse them into the game. Like carefully after the run is completed say ok shooting that guy was a bad move, and looting his corpse without trying to erase the RFID tags in his items was even worse. This is what they have on you now and this is how people will track you down with it. Oh and remember that time that you looked that camera full in the face and then gave it the razzberry? Also a bad move. When character A decided to blow up a AA corporate building that will get you killed very quickly (killing tons of civilians will get a lot of heat brought down on you.) I'm not going to hit you quite as hard as I should next session, but expect things to get harder from now on. Did the mage clean up his/her astral sig? Did the electronics expert or hacker blot out all the cameras? Did the party show face? If they don't know these things because they are new to the SR universe, then maybe it's a good idea that they should know everything that will bring the beat stick upon the party.

After you feel that they know a better on what they are doing wrong then maybe you can say to them "Ok I think you got it if you start making slip ups I am not going to let go when you make a poor choice in the game." The reason why they didn't like the D&D is the exact reason why I wouldn't like SR if someone always dived for the beat stick anytime a player made a mistake without fully realizing what they were doing.

If a GM or DM has a hard on for ramming the players while making his own "characters" uber then well yeah people will not want to play anymore. All I'm saying is diving for the stick when players don't know what they are doing seems kinda harsh. Show them what they are doing wrong so when they do it again you can reach for the stick and wail on them with no remorse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Vegetaman]

Yeah but in D&D the beat stick was used just because the DM could. It had no relevance to our in game actions. We had a pre-set campaign and could not deviate from it. Shadowrun is more free form and interactive.

[masterofm]

Note the last paragraph. Some GM's are just mean spirited and love to doll out punishment in huge heaping servings for no real reason then to just be cruel.

[Neondante]

I know I'm going to sound like a player myself saying this, but I think all of your problems could indeed be solved by high explosives. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Have a SWAT team or equivalent armed with expensive prototype gear that is set to explode once the owner's vital signs have flatlined and it's been moved away from the owner's PAN by someone who is not in possession of the proper password. It doesn't have to be a big bomb, nothing fatal or disabling, just one big enough to destroy the item and scorch the hands and/or swag bag of anyone who hauls it off, and make a potentially inconvenient amount of noise. It won't stop their looting, but it'll make them think about it. Do we have time to check all this gear for explosives? Is it worth picking up every little doodad when we don't know which ones are rigged? That aughta make them loot a bit more cautiously... and the beauty part is, if they ever lower their guard (to the point where it becomes a problem) all you need is another bomb.

Tracers, bugs and tags are great, realistic, and high tech, but nothing beats the Pavlovian response to something that goes boom. Only instead of drooling when they see that nice, shiny new weapon, they will be flinching and paranoid. Which, this being Shadowrun, is not at all a bad thing. Just make sure you're not doing it TOO often, since the spoils of war is part of the fun.

[cREbralFIX]

You could always tone down the game.

Make firearms difficult to come by outside of a corp or government department.

Control their ammunition sources...tightly. Make it 50 nuyen a shot. Mr. Fixer only has 100 rounds of pistol ammo in stock. "Mr. Johnson...we're gonna need some ammo...."

This has the side effect of enhancing the value of mages.

If they're wasting time doing more than a battlefield pickup (or working on the plot line if they are looting), then you're not putting enough pressure on them to ROLEPLAY and to SOLVE the plot.

***

Sorry guys, but do you really think a security guard is going to pick up ANY weapon that is so much as RUMORED to be wired with a bomb? Regardless of the "safety" of it, the will be locker room talk of "Ya know, Joe down on East Street blew up when a stray round struck the stock of his rifle. Turns out the corp wired it with explosives to keep it from being stolen. Hah! They're more worried about peanuts than you!"

Gee, that ALWAYS goes over well with people. No corp could afford such a thing...their people would just leave rather than work like that. Sure, life is tough in the SR world, but not that tough.

[Neondante]

I didn't mean the average security guard. I mean the high threat response teams who are actually paid enough to be willing to handle that sort of junk... the kind of guys who know damn well the company values money over life because they are the ones who take care of all the company's problems that aren't public enough for the runners to handle.