Hate of gunbunnies?, Why do you hate them? Options

[Solidcobra]

I mean, if there is some "class" that everyone talks about how to make useless, either by a lv.10 manabolt or by FORCING them to go to a party, it's the gunbunnies
Yes it is, don't argue!
I yet have to see a slew of "anti-decker" messages, telling the little nerds to go out and get sniped by ADU (anti-deckers united), noone's telling the nerds "you HAVE to go to the party and you HAVE to be stripped of your deck"
Even though the deckers destroy even more than gunbunnys, the bunnys just shoot, the deckers make the game stop....

noone hates riggers and suggests that they HAVE to go into a anti-drone zone and have a party....

and not a single person hates the mages, not any more than "geek the mage" that is....

why does everyone hate samurai and adepts? why? *sniff* :(

[CirclMastr]

Because samurai and adepts are generally the least likely/able to fill more than one role. It's pretty easy to make a combat decker, or a shaman/face, or somesuch as that. Adepts and samurai tend to be good at making things die, and... that's about it.

As for riggers, I've never actually had someone want to play a rigger in any game I've run, so I can't comment on that.

[Ol' Scratch]

[Kagetenshi]

[Fortune]

Funny. I see way more anti-Decker comments than I do Anti-gunbunny ones.

As Doc said, they are among the most versatile people when it comes to mundane skills. It's illogical to say you can make a good combat decker but cannot make a versatile sammy. A combat decker is basically a versatile gunbunny!

[Kagetenshi]

Well, y'see, one's a tail that has a dog attached, and the other happens to be a dog with a tail tacked on...

~J

Postscript: the analogy is mediocre: I'm not implying different valuations. Otherwise, it's the best I could come up with.

[CirclMastr]

[Dende]

Personally, I hate riggers with a vengence. Only 1 I have ever had in a group was HORRIBLE...but I dont' like the whole idea of them in the first place either.
And please, in arm guns won't be confiscated...sure if your all powerful gun bunny carries only an AR...that is not gonna be allowed in a club, but no shit.

And if your character can't socialize at all to the point you think making you talk to a johson is torture, perhaps you aren't playing the game right. Maybe you should stop throwing 52 dice in shooting, and put 2 of those into ettiquette.(not saying you aren't now.)

But really, there is a point in all games where you have to get an assignment in a closed quaters situation, even a party, but you could get a sniper rifle or explosives and take care of that shit without going in at all.

Everybody has a use...yes lucky mages, always having weapons...well what about taking one into an Ares high security building, maybe one with a nice strong astral barrier and dampners, fuck them up real good, only you as the gunbunny can do shit.

Of course you can construct a bad situation for your character, deal with it, everyone has a weakness.

[Raygun]

I guess it all comes down to what you think a gunbunny is. If all a character can do is shoot and talk shit, I don't have much use for said character as a GM. I have a tendency to dislike that type of character mostly because of the people who choose to play them. In my experience, they tend to be the people who know the least about guns and how to employ them effectively as well as the type of person who puts as little into character development as possible.

Not that you have to know everything about guns to play a character that uses them, but the sociopathic behavior and bravado that tends to come along with the archetypical "gunbunny" persona makes those characters pretty useless as shadowrunners. It can easily get in the way of good character development, and occasionally, a good game. Personally, I like multi-faceted characters rather than the kind that can be pigeonholed into a convenient title.

[hp_warcraft]

Well, I don't hate gunbunnies. Our group's gunbunny takes care of all our guns and is an expert at acquiring specialty ammo. She also has high Shooting skills and Instruction making her an excellent teacher for those of us who run with her that have less than stellar filling things with holes skills.

In our last session, my decker actually used a gun for the very first time! A nice solid hose down with his Ares Squirt loaded with DMSO & gamma scoplamine. Everyone was so impressed that our B&E guy even let me hold his spare pistol loaded with APDS while he and the gunbunny went after the guys in Secuirty Armor. :D

[thunderchild]

Gunbunnies have a problem that I see is a major problem, they tend to up the ante of a game.

Ok, you have a nice well rounded team, and a gunbunny, now if you throw combat at the team, one of 2 things tend to happen more than anything else.

1. its up to the strength to chalenge the team, and the gunbunny makes sort work of them before the others get their initiative pass.

2. Its up to the challenge of the gunbunny, while everyone else cowers in corners trying to avoid being hit, the gunbunny gets all the combat.

This in turn creates another problem, most players of shadowrun enjoy mixing it up in combat, now if this is the case, when either of the above happens, the rest of the players try to catch up to the gunbunny, usualy failing miserably and becoming mediorce at whatever they were before. while the gunbunny keeps on making himself a better gunbunny.

Now a Gunbunny isnt a real problem untill he becomes a Min-Maxed Gunbunny, usualy with reflex enhancers so high that you must put the entire teams of chipped cyberninjas with dikoted katanas against the team just to even register as a threat. I dont mind a Pistoleer with Smartlink -2 Boosted 2, and cybereyes packed with all the goodies, because although he may be able to peg people at any range with a TN of 4 He can be outclassed and outgunned, the problem is with the Wired 3 and Smartlink 2 Ares Alpha combatgun with Gasvent 4, custom grips, shock pad, and Mag3 scope with thermal and lowlight vision wielding gunbunny




Deckers dont realy pose a problem if the GM knows his rules, the Decker knows his rules and the GM dosent spend all his time with graphic depictions of the matrix. Same as rigging.

[Glyph]

I have to say, I have seen what he's talking about on these forums, although if you read more carefully you will notice a lot of slams about awakened characters as well.

I think the problem that I've seen is when a GM complains that he can't handle a cybered character who shoots up all of his security guards. You will have posters explain rules for things like cover, as well as reasonable tactics for guards to use, but you also get... stronger replies. See, whenever someone brings up problem controlling their game's power level, a lot of folks seem to automatically assume the the problem character must be some twinked-out munchkin who must be punished.

At that point, half of the posts seem to be things like "See if he's so tough if someone snipes at him with a Barrett from the roof, or hits him with a Force: 8 Manabolt" or "Have the Yakuza get mad at him and assasinate him" or "Make him go to a party and see how well he does without his Ares Alpha and his piddly Etiquette skill" or "Have a decker mess up his savings accounts".


I don't think it's any bias against gun-bunnies. I think people are just too quick to assume someone is a munchkin any time the GM has trouble with such a character.

[Traks]

If in your game there are many combats, gunbunnies tend to hog all the glory.
That leads to situations
a) gunbunnies are only types that players make, or some combat mages/adepts;
b) there are many enemies that gunbunny cannot fight effectively (immunity to normal weapons,regeneration,concealment)
c) there is group that takes on gunbunny and another group that ambushes team;

Oh, and gunbunnies that clean buildings "because they can" do not live too long, if there is proper GM who do not let slide such things. I personally dislike not gunbunnies, but players who try to hog all the spotlight. And I think that is what others meant.

P.S. There are no real gunbunnies in my group, but one is aiming for that position.
Good luck to him, and he will not be hindered in any way.

[Munchkinslayer]

[Cray74]

[Birdy]

Why does everybody hate gunbunnies?

Well, as the old saying goes "Artillery does not know friend or foe, only targets"
(Gunbunny is IIRC slang for the artillerymen aka Redlegs)

As for hating them personally - I don't. I hate mages and data criminals with a passion but weapons experts are totally okay (That's why I run CP far more often than SR)

If there's a class that unbalances the game it's Maggie Joe the spellslinger. Ruins 7 out of 10 plots and talks the rest to dead for fear of a scratch.

Gimme a group of HMG toting Troll mercs anytime!

Michael

[Lilt]

I have no real problem with Gunbunnys, or Deckers (although I used to before I read the idiot's guide to the matrix thread), or Mages, or Adepts, or whatever.

I have never seen anyone play a pure Gunbunny... Gunbunny/Cvops was about the closest one I've seen.

Mages can take a fair bit of the game time, but then-again mixing magic with cyber/guns is the whole reason I play SR really... That and the kickass backstory.

[edit]Well: I actually have a DND Axebunny in another game I'm running right now, although he refuses to play anything but combat characters I'm hopeing that will decrease with time.

DND is also far worse for dedicated XYZ bunnies as it penalises you heavily for making your character versatile. Multiclassing? XP PENALTY![/edit]

[Frag-o Delux]

I hate the corporations that make gun bunnies, I think they have gone to far. How do they do it though breeding rabbits with guns. When will the arms race end? At first it was just nasty sharp pointy teeth that will rip your head off, and now they have guns, I don't think I have enough Holy Handgrenades to hold out. It is all a plot by the NRA to make people like guns more. You see guns are ugly and and impersonal killing machines, but now with that cute furry face and floppy ears, how can hate such a cute little bunny? Can I get one a Petco?

Honestly though my currnet character plans on the gun bunny being around, I can use more of my karma on B&E skills and spells. :D And the money I save on ammo, now goes into my wardrobe for those nice parties. The only time my character was in a fight broke his hand knocking a guy out. Haveing a gunbunny drawing all the fire lets me get away safe. My character doesn't like the gunbunny because my characters personality is a perfectionist and a neat freak and the gunbunny is a slob that doesn't give a shit about anything but beer and pizza. But uses him because he can see the usefulness of him, for no. Our current gunbunny is my little brother and has only been playing SR on and off for about 2 years, he came from the D&D crowd (which I got him into :) ). He is slowly learning that he needs to diversify his character since we made him sit out a few games. Well he sat in the car waiting for all hell to break loss. He had a very boring day. When we play we take into account what the team is made of. I don't know I have never had a problem any character in the game. We ahd some strange characters also an aspiring televangelist, an udercover narc who was addicted to novacoke, a guy who spent 7 years game time in a bar then had an epiphany one night while drinking and decided to be bigger then Al Capone, a guy who was extremely homophobe but got his ass in a sling and had to go to a gay fixer for help so was in complete misery taking orders from a person who he would rather kill, and list of oddities goes on.

[Tanka]

[Moon-Hawk]

I would like to second Glyph's post, and add a little cynicism of my own. Whenever anyone complains that they have a problem handling characters, everyone assumes that it's some munchy character or a bad player. I've seen an awful lot of GM's post that they don't seem to have any trouble dealing with character X, or archetype Y. Personally, I've never had problems with gunbunnies. They have a role, they do it well, and if they don't diversify they spend a lot of time bored. I don't have a problem with deckers. I don't have a problem with riggers. Magic offers a lot of very clever solutions to problems, but never once have I had it derail an adventure (probably because my adventures have no rails). All i'm saying is sometimes...SOMETIMES...the GM just sucks, and needs to get back on the other side of the screen. (this does NOT apply to inexperienced GMs who are working hard to improve, only to GMs who have consistently sucked for years) I'm not saying that this is the case here, but there's always posts on here about people complaining about how to deal with something in their campaign. And usually they're good questions about ligitimate problems, and the people on here give a lot of really helpful answers. But pretty consistently, about once a week, I see one that just makes me conclude that maybe that person just can't handle the job.
(reading over the post) Wow, that was kinda nasty. I must be in a worse mood than I thought. I guess I'm sticking up for the gunbunnies, in my own bitter way, and I'll try to be more cheerful in my next post. That's just been building up and had to be said. Cheers.

[Siege]

As Glyph pointed out, it's not the character type nearly so much as the "hack 'n' slash" player who does nothing but fight and gets obnoxious when there isn't fighting.

Creative players can make any character type interesting and multi-faceted. Narrow-minded, personality-challenged players can make any character type dull and frustrating.

-Siege

[Ol' Scratch]

[Bearclaw]

I'm the GM of an 8 person (including me) group.
Our best role-player is playing a complete gun-bunny. She is such a complete gun bunny that she has 0 points in social skills. And it's played out.
She's hyper and twitchy and completely impatient with people all the time. Every time she opens her mouth on a run, other than to give orders in a fight, it costs the party money. And everyone loves it, because the character is played well. Her player is forced by the party to wear a ball-gag whenever they go to meets, and they try to find ways to leave her "pulling security". But she always wants to go.
Sure substituting rolling for role playing is bad, but there's nothing wrong with both.

[nezumi]

What Siege said, plus class: gunbunny tends to attract a lot of the incompetent players. I think it's because it doesn't require as much imagination or thought as the other classes.

I started up my grunge game saying no less than 5 times, this is grunge, you will suck, you will have no money. I set the weapons at nothing with a SI greater than or equal to 1 (YES! Street Index. So predators, some hold outs and knives. I kinda missed that availability column, oops). Colt Manhunter is a 'nice' gun and these people are using shotguns made out of PVC pipes and bags of nails. Nevertheless, one character set his primary skill at assault rifles. *sigh*

slay all blatantly stupid people. (He did eventually die, but only because he posted all of 4 replies in the online game, all in the OOC thread. Maybe there wasn't enough random violence?)

[Buzzed]

If the gun bunny is being a glory hog, it isn't their fault. The GM just needs to get a bit more creative in how to keep all players involved in the game. The GM simply has to think like a movie director. intermixing scenes works quite well to keep the game moving for ALL players.

EXAMPLE A:
gun bunny + decker = Obviously the gun bunny can be taking on the security guards and drones to cover the decker's meat body. Switch on and off between combat rounds and matrix activities.

EXAMPLE B:
gun bunny + mage + rigger = A security blast door closes separating the gun bunny from the rest of the team. 2 separate groups of security guards close in on the area from each side of the door. In this situation, the mage and the rigger can fight without the gun bunny there to help them. To make it interesting, perhaps the rigger needs to work on security rigging the door's system to open it up again while the mage struggles to protect them until the door is finally opened to reunite the team.

EXAMPLE... The possibilities are endless.

[Kagetenshi]

That's one thing I love about riggers. They make [the stupid, munchy type of] gunbunnies obsolete.

~J

[Traks]

How is that? I want to be prepared, if someone takes the rigger :)

[Siege]

Skim the Rigger 3 book.

-Siege

[Kagetenshi]

Drones. Lots of drones.

~J

[Traks]

Thanks. I prefer Kagetenshi answer, because I haven't memorized even main book yet. So taking other books is kinda hard. I just do not see what makes say 5 drones so better than gunbunny.

[Tanka]

5 Drones means 5 targets, and it also means all five can concentrate their fire on one target, or they can disperse their fire between five targets.

1 Gunbunny means 1 target, and it also means that it can only fire at one target, generally.

[Herald of Verjig...]

I didn't understand the basic question of this thread. I like gunbunnies, they usually have a low enough willpower that an influence spell will keep them loyal and once the grenade launcher starts going "geek the mage" is no longer the first thought amid the opponents.

[BaronJ]

I've tried to play all of the archetypes, and while I'm partial to Riggers, my gunbunnies filled needed niches.

Yea, someone who's all guns does have a limited usefulness (only when you're shooting things), but when the drek does hit the ventilator, they're very handy to have in the area. The troll with the LMG does wonders with supressive fire (targeting those five people with one person... which makes is simple for the rest of the team to hit them), and all you have to do is drop a bullet-barrier on him and he's (mostly) safe. But as others have said, it doesn't take all that much to make a diversified character: Sure Gunbunny knows everything about guns (three weapon-classes, build/repair for two of 'em, has the firearms fixer to get everyone the mil-spec ammo, etc), but they also are handy when something happens, and you need to get your own gun repaired. Or when you need to fence the guns you looted from the Yak corpses. Or when you co-opt a street gang to protect your doss by giving 'em access to something better than zip-guns.

They're niche characters, but then all of the 'archetypes' are, if they're static in those archetypes. With a bit of diversification, they become people, rather than 'classes', and then they develop some character. Until then, they are just 'things'.

But I think that's a bit too much philosophy for the time being :)

[Kagetenshi]

To expand on what Tanka said: from kilometers away a rigger can control six MMG-equipped rotodrones flying around and killing everything right out of the gate at chargen (I believe 30 kilometers is the best I've done for range). For subtlety, they've got microdrones that can crawl around and spy on everything. More than a few GMs have houseruled that you can't mount rifles on drones because they make snipers obsolete otherwise (a Sensor 5 drone flying around in the sky with a sniper rifle will eat everything in its path, if used intelligently). And worst of all, as I said at the start, you can have multple drones going at it at once. They're not unbalanced as long as the GM is sharp, but they will eat a combat-dedicated sammy any day.

~J

[Req]

Plus they make thousands of Juilenne fries! What gunbunny can claim that?

[Siege]

[Siege]

[Siege]

[Kagetenshi]

Hey, don't forget monowhips.

~J

[Siege]

[Solidcobra]

I yet have to see a fighter character (AKA gunbunny, AKA samurai, basically the same thing, shoot the target, repeat as necessary) with a willpower of less than 5, the smart ones get willpower 6 and magic resistance 4, to make sure that the pesky "friendly" (yes, most mind-controlling magic comes from the asshat mage in the party that wants to be the GM for the party, controlling their every move...) mage will have a slightly harder time to screw them over.....

and, with the rigger part: That's what i mean, a rigger can be himself in social life and he can be the 4-5 drones with MMGs and mortars during the missions....

but does everyone reply "A little gigantic maximized übarEMP field should force him to eat quite the dumpshock... BWAHAHAHA! Look at me! I can screw riggers over!" if someone asks for help with a rigger?
didn't think so..... because riggers are for "Better" players, the ones who's characters won't touch a gun, only his foci/cyberdeck/VCR/whatever as long as it's not a weapon......

[Kagetenshi]

Everyone needs a backup weapon.

"In other news today, a vegetable-cutting accident at the local Ichiban restaurant left three dead and two more hospitalized in critical condition yesterday. Witness reports that one of the deceased cut vegetables with a monowhip have not been confirmed."

~J

[Kagetenshi]

[Siege]

[Solidcobra]

that's possible, but when i said "gunbunny" when i started the thread....
i meant anything that shoots and is meant to do it well
now, for some strange reason people come from d&d and robocop and seem to think that "ooh, look.... guns.... höhöhöhö......" and they play fighters (whatever, that's the new general term for the shooting people)...
this is NOT their faults
it is YOUR faults for not telling them the truth, and how a character should be made.... you could do that but NO! you prefer to hit them with a force 10 manabolt.....

fighters are my favourite characters, i love the thought and feel of going max payne/joe zombie/robocop on a couple of security guards/drones/gangers/that stupid prat mage that wanted to controll your mind, jumping from box A to box B, shooting on the way, of course with bullet time :-)

but alas, i cannot do this without taking many security precautions.....
Step A: Get max willpower and magic resistance 4
Step B: Get negotiations/etiquette/both at force 4-6
Step C: Get the "Charisma Phermones" to get your effective negotiations/etiquette to 6-8
Step D: Get biotech at force 4-6

after having done all that i can start creating my character..... otherwise the GMs i've had thus far would like nothing better than throwing a manabolt at me if my character looked at a guard in the wrong way...
and if my negotiations/etiquette/both doesn't suck my GMs never seem to "force" roleplaying on me in the same way.... strange huh?
Even stranger: if the mage has a body of 2 and is about as finesseful as a spasmatic rat, and about as charismatic as well, the GM won't snipe him for manabolting his main nemesis, he won't force the mage to roleplay, and strangely he won't shoot the mage with even a predator as well.....

oh well, i guess it's the fighters destiny, to be ever hated by the "better" players, the ones that plays the way "better" and more "role-playable" and "less munched" deckers, mages and riggers......

why us? why not the mages? the pesky asshats that love to controll you because it's fun.....

bleh....

[Kagetenshi]

Ok, I've finally figured out what you're trying to say.

You're saying that your group sucks. Fine. Great. Slap your GM a few times for me, and shoot the players. I have yet to encounter a mage that tends to CT the other players, and anyone who tried would probably get smacked around anyway (remember, magic is pretty easy to notice).

In the meantime, I'll keep right on making gunbunnies' lives a living hell, because they deserve it.

~J, leaving quiet the fact that he makes everyone's lives a living hell.

[Siege]

Interesting -- no mage has ever controlled my character more than once.

It sounds like you've been in a slightly biased crew. :grinbig:

-Siege

[Solidcobra]

but WHY does the fighters deserve to die?

and i've played with many groups.... most GMs (when i wasn't) tried to make my life a living hell.....
after i added the holy steps i mentioned earlier my survival rate has more than quadrupled......
because i managed to destroy the GMs "BWUAHHAAHAHAHAHAHA! POWER TRIP!!! BWAHAHAHA!!!! FORCE *1 higher than i can survive* MANABOLT!!! BWAHAHAHAH!" moments, if he DID throw a force.... REALLY high.... manabolt at me it would be even more obvious than it is that he's after me......

my question is: Why is the holding and proper using of a weapon a reason to die a gruesome death?

[Siege]

Like Kage said, your crew sucks.

Granted, I've never been present to watch you play, but based solely on your posting, I'd say your crew is just obnoxious and is targeting you specifically.

Which means you may need to find another crew.

Now, if they happen to treat any and all fighter-types like that, then take heart -- it's not just you. Their hearts, if at all possible. :grinbig:

-Siege

[Solidcobra]

well, as i said: i've played with many groups, most of the time i'm the fighter, and most of the time i'm the one to be targeted..... by everything.....
but after having used my 4 steps on the character it just becomes ridiculous, with the extreme power rush that the GM seems to find necessary to make it fun, this ruins for the whole group and after a short while i either leave or am forced to GM.....

[Kagetenshi]

Well, the fact that you think of it as a "fighter" certainly suggests that there is something eminently smiteable in your approach.

~J

[Solidcobra]

whatever, what should i call them? Samurai is a type of shooter, Gunbunny is another.... calling them shooters sound wrong.... so please, tell me how i should adress the holy and mighty warriors, except for "target" that is...

[Herald of Verjig...]

"Lead magnet"

[Solidcobra]

that's SUPPOSED to be the mages job......
now, excuse me while i let out some anger.....

AAUAUAUUUGGUGHGHGHGHGAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!RRRAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

ah.... much better....
honestly, fighter seems to be the fastest and most neutral term i can think of, the guy with a weapon, then you may call them whatever you want to, i was corrected when i said gunbunny, so now it's fighter....
i refuse to use a negative term for them, and i don't want to be corrected, so "fighter" soudns okay.....

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Kagetenshi]

Target works.

~J

[Siege]

To be fair, fighters and fighter-types have the hit points to take the brunt of the attack so the mages and lesser-endowed critters can return fire.

In SR terms, samurai have the body and 'ware to soak hits as necessary.

Although, a fairer approach would be to allow random determination of hits, barring obvious target indicators -- indicators like "Hi, I'm a mage...GEEK ME!"

-Siege

[Rattler]

The only reason gunslinging sammies get such a poor rep is because less capable GMs don't know how to handle them. As Glyph had mentioned before, it isn't necessarily the fault of the player if he's dominating the game. Even if the character is overpowered, the blame ultimately still lies with the GM for letting it past character generation. If you think a character is too powerful for your campaign, then just put your foot down and say "No." The problem is solved before it even begins.

Some people, for god knows what reason, perceive that it isn't the role of gunbunnies to excel at combat. The same people wouldn't have a problem with deckers specializing in computers, or faces specializing in social skills. Combat is an essential slot that needs to be filled in most games - yet, many people whine when the person(s) who fills it doesn't turn out to be a jack of all trades. Of course the sammy is going to overshadow other non-combat oriented archetypes in a firefight...you might as well complain that the rigger should be sniped in the head because no one else can drive, or the decker should be nailed with a force 50 manabolt because he completely dominates all the other players in the Matrix. That's the whole point of team: so that each character's specialty will contribute to the entire group's versatility. If everyone can do everything, you might as well run solo.

If a player feels that their skillset is too narrow, they can always pick something else up so that they can participate more in the game. That's their problem, and their's only. There's no reason for anyone to whine if they're being overshadowed in a field that they didn't specialize in by someone else who did. If your abilities are spread out more evenly, you will be able to do other things that they can't, so it all comes out even. In the end, it's the GM's job to incorporate all the necessary elements into a run so that no single player gets more of the limelight than the others.

[Kagetenshi]

But combat is the one part of the game that a wise runner will go out of their way to avoid. Everything else is part-and-parcel of running, but a runner should never get into a fair fight unless they screw up.

~J

[Siege]

[Rattler]

[gknoy]

[Siege]

Gunbunnies are unbalancing when your GM *allows* Wired 3 or Boosted + Synaptic or *shudder* Move By Wire.

And let's face it -- any character sporting that kind of 'ware is gonna be unbalancing, whether it's a Face, decker or rigger.

That's one of the reasons why I don't like million nuyen characters with no creation limitations -- it gets absurd long before the game ever starts.

However, other points have also been made with equal validity -- if we take a million nuyen samurai sporting MBW and goddess knows what else and drop him in a situation where there's nothing to kill, the character is as controlled as anyone else.

Granted, you still have all hell to pay when the MBW bunny gets to swim in his element. But that's going to be true of any specialist.

-Siege

[gknoy]

[Kagetenshi]

Check the Lone-Star Strato-9. Military-grade power in a security-oriented package with civilian-accessible prices.

~J

[Tiralee]

Let's see....

My gunbunny/spec-ops (I use a silencer :cyber: ) had a few guns skills, a whole bowl of quickness and charisma-based skills out the yin-yang.
Why?
You can't buy the best toys without being able to talk nice to people.

Sure, cybered up.
Sure, my mage bud is still scratching herself if it comes down to a simple hold-up gunplay situation, but it's HOW you play a character, be it bunny, sammy or "geeky the mage", that makes it a good game or a crappy GM-dominated "throw the baddies at the bunny" blenderfest.

Knowing when to shoot is more important than having an init so high you out-draw god.
Knowing that a massacre is tres uncool for your rep and social standing will get you a better class of runs, with a greater reward.
Knowing, before you draw the gun, where the greatest threat is, and what it is, will save you more often than a HVAR with EX rounds.


Gm's are lazy, and so are players.
I was recently playing a ganger situation with a mighty adept who had Jonny-Woo'ed her way into the safehouse, taken heads (Note - beware Dikote blades when held by Troll Adept wearing Shock gloves.) and was shredding the opposition.
Thinking ahead, she positioned herself to take out the most dangerous (to her) opposition, a large troll with an SMG. Ok, did that, not a problem. So what did she do then? "Ok, I've got a few more coming, so I'll wait for them to pop their heads around the corner."

(In all honesty, it's the first time she's played something so gun orientated, so I have to cut her some slack. But she DOES know about the cover rules...Sigh.)

She didn't think that the opposing forces would use their knowledge of the building to their advantage. Or that they'd ambush her ("Ok, surprise situation, roll reaction." "Huh? You haven't described them to me yet...CRAP!" "(Evil Grin)) and knock her down to very damaged through her armour-clad ass.

[Funnily enough, geeky the mage kicked their hoops, even with mod stun, using his pistol skill. ]

I think of these things, my players NOW think of these thing. All GMs should think of these things. You're not fighting mindless constructs, these fraggers don't want to die and it should show.

L.

It's Darwinian. The stupid die first. So play smart and don't whine, meat. :rotfl:

[gknoy]

[Kagetenshi]

All of them.
I still find it amusing that the time you came closest to dying thus far was against a group of guys armed with nonlethal rounds. (Narcoject)

~J

[Tanka]

Simple: You shoot the guy that's watching you through the scope of his Barret.

[Glyph]

There is another complaint that often comes up in regards to gun bunnies that I would like to address. This is the notion that someone who is much better at combat than the rest of the group is "unbalancing". Hogwash. That's just lazy thinking from GMs who make every run devolve into little more than heavy combat. The gun bunny outclasses others in a firefight because that is the gun bunny's role. He is a specialist, because a shadowrunning team is composed of specialists who work together.

That's something a lot of people seem to forget - a running team needs people to break into the security, hack into the mainframe, deal with magical guardians, negotiate the best payment for the team, etc. The gun bunny doesn't complain when he is decking a public node to call up the hotel plans while the decker is busy doing the more important hacking. He doesn't whine when the face does most of the talking with the Johnson and he only brings up a relevant tactical point when it's important. He lets the rigger do the driving, and he lets the mage take care of the corporate compound's wards.

But whenever a firefight breaks out, everyone cries: "Wahhh! My character can't kill as many people as his character can, even though that's not even my character's main area of expertise!" or "Wahhh! My character got involved in a firefight when he should have been taking cover to let the gun bunny do his job, and now I'm wounded! It's the gun bunny's fault!"

I'll give some advice to the GMs: tailor the opposition to the gun bunny, and if the other players get caught in the crossfire, tell them "What the hell were you doing out there? That part of the run's not your job."


Note: Yes, other characters can support the gun bunny in combat. But they should still know when to take cover and let him handle the heavy stuff - just like the sammie might step back and let the adept with a weapon focus handle a toxic city spirit.

[mfb]

no kidding. my character's got 12+4d6 init, 8 skill in his chosen weapons, and six points of pain resistance. guess what? you don't see him slinging code very often! instead, you see him shooting people in the face (or, more probably, getting kicked in the ribs).

yes, it can be a problem when a player doesn't fill out his gunbunny character beyond "he was in the Paladins and they gave him lots of cyberware and he wears sunglasses all the time". but that's a problem for any character type.

[Xirces]

I think the biggest problem with players whining about gunbunnies is that combat is almost totally controlled by the dice. Initiative and skill are determined by the numbers and most players don't have enough appreciation of tactics to sway combat their way (I've certainly never held a gun, nevermind actually been involved in a firefight). However, when it comes to negotiations anyone can get involved, no matter what the numbers say. I realise that the same holds true for decking and rigging, but I definitely think it's a factor.

Personally I always make sure that every character has some combat skill and that combat types have other skills/contacts to actually get by. I also have a tendency to play combat types who try and avoid combat.

I remember years ago playing CP2020 - I had a heavily chromed Solo with high combat skills - the other characters were pretty weak in comparison and got into a bar fight when knives were drawn. I headed straight for the door and waited outside with pistol drawn (just in case one of them followed me), whilst the rest of the team slugged it out with some thugs, getting slowly beaten. I could have easily turned the tide, but given the ease of dying and randomness of combat thought it better not to. To me that's the essence of combat-type characters - knowing when to fight and when not to, especially in high risk systems like SR has become.

[Rattler]

[Birdy]

Combat is bad, don't draw a gun, Magic is the key, blablabla...

Sorry guy but has anyone ever thought about the idea that some groups actually like! the occassional violence? That the combination of near future/scifi (I HATE fantasy) with some action is what they are looking for?

If I want to play one of those "better" and "more challenging" characters like a decker/face/... I don't have to play - I pull extra hours on my job! There I have to discuss, make detailed plans, keep tight shedules and all the stuff. When I sit down at the gaming table I really don't need some "No combat I'm the mage fay" players who turn the game into another hours long discussion and end up with a "let's talk this through/be all nice" solution.

F*** "advanced roleplaying"

Michael

[JAG]

[Kagetenshi]

[JAG]

[Solidcobra]

yeah, there are rumors.... about people that like to shoot things.....
people that like to play... the gunbunnies....... *everyone: :eek: *
Yes, it is true! I once saw one of them... his exact words were.... "Screw roleplaying, can't we just have a shooting run this time?".....
PH33R!!!!!!

or maybe not.....

[JAG]

I must admit the potential of shooting things is better than the actual shooting.

Theres nothing better than facing down the mooks with your gun out with the "Do you feel lucky" :smokin: face on.

Chances are if you play it well, they'll run for it.

[Tiralee]

Thanks for the praise gknov. :D


And the answer to your query of who to waste first?

The DM answer is "The idiot who got you into the situation in the first place" -which may be you... :rotfl:

But saying things like that can get you showered in dice, so...

The player answer - Depends on the situation.

Prepardness, ability, knowledge of what's going on - these will drive a combat rather than "Looky, that guy got big gun...me waste him first?" (A common mistake that I fully exploit.)

For instance - Back up, got it?
Is your friendly "Geek the Mage" lurking on the sidelines with a control thoughts spell to even the odds a little? Or mob-mind? Or Hell-blast? Or a M-damage pistol?
Never underestimate a bit of friendly co-operation. It will save your ass more often than delta-grade cyber with accessories from the street fair.

Preparation-
Is the rigger about to open a can of whoop-ass on the hostiles with his usurpation of the security system? Have you bribed the right people to look the other way, or to leave a door helpfully unlocked? Is another go-gang trying to muscle in on the area, and can they be "encouraged" to be a bit active on the night of your run? Did you get that personel file from your decker and READ IT?

Please, please... Do a bit more preparation then "Ok, there's an alley here, we'll park the truck there and jump through a window if things screw up." (Hands up those who have heard this once too many times.)

Legwork saves lives.

Knowledge and Awareness of the mess you're in.
PERCEPTION = INT. The mage or decker might spot something out of place, and tell you about it. Try and listen even if it takes naval-class damage to make a dent in your head.

Knowledge - do you have a background skill in a particular topic to help a roll?
Maybe you know enough about Small unit tactics to help figure out what's most likely to happen, or if that Mage is carrying an ineffectual light pistol.
Hell, what mage is going to waste a combat round for an aimed shot when they can dump a power bolt on you?
What Troll is going to fumble for a secured weapon when this tire-iron is, literally, to hand?
What Sammy has enough Will to resist a stunbolt 9? Or 6 (heh, heh....)


Oh, and a GM rant now-

Please note:
Stun gasses can't be shot to death. And tends to be harsh in melee, too.
Wired reflexes don't help resist disease or pollution or shock or cold or fire damage.
8 Stunball is harsh.
Spirits are notoriously hard to snipe successfully.
So is "Toxic Wave".
Specialities work best in their element - try, at least.
Exploit the gaps, fake what you haven't got and misdirect attention like mad. People looking in the wrong direction get hammered 10 out of 9 times. :spin:

L.
"A friend in need is a friend to be avoided, a problem shared is a problem doubled and a stitch in time will leave you sewn up. Have a day."

[Lindt]

[bwdemon]

I just wanted to get a few words in on some big errors I've seen here so far. Some of them have already been corrected, but I can't help myself. :D

First, gunbunnies are not the only high-initiative characters out there. I've seen plenty of mages sporting 4d6 initiatives in my time and I know I'm not the only one. A high initiative character is always going to be effective, regardless of whether they use a gun, spell, sword, deck, vehicle, or whatever. I'd much rather face off against a chrome king gunbunny than a Bear shamanic sorcerer loaded with quickened Health spells.

Second, gunbunnies aren't the only specialists out there. Every character is a specialist, except the most generalized characters out there (skillwires & skills for miles on a magician with lots of low force spells... done) and they're only useful for gap-filling on a small team. A character may have secondary skills, but they should all boil down to one or two very obvious things that they excel at. I know that if I were a decker and I had to go somewhere that put me in physical danger, I'd want a teammate/bodyguard that could handle it. I'd definitely choose the guy who moved like a blur and never missed a shot over the guy who wasn't so quick or accurate, but who's nice to talk to. You want people who can handle their roles first and foremost; everything else is just gravy.

Third, a lot of people seem to have no idea how to handle availability. It's really hard to get most seriously unbalancing items in the game. It's also really hard to get some menial items and amazingly easy to get some that should be difficult. Do the players have the right contacts to get X? Can the contact get X? How much of X can the contact get? What's the contact's markup? Will someone else give X a better price? Is it worth it to someone to kill the contact in order to get X? Despite all of this, if you feel something would unbalance your game, say so and deny access to it. If the player isn't a munchkin, then he'll fit his shopping list to the game. If he is, then he'll whine and cry and flail and leave if you're lucky. If your GM is too thick to notice this, maybe bring it up to him or, god forbid, exercise a little self-restraint.

Fourth, SR is completely about combat or, more accurately, conflict. Whether it takes place in the astral, the matrix, the highways, or the alleys, SR is all about pitting X against Y and duking it out. This could be a conflict between stealth and perception, deckers and databases, guns and armor, whatever... the whole thing comes down to conflict and resolution of that conflict.

Finally, SR *requires* dice. I know, "perish the thought", but dice are what allow for resolution. If you aren't good at a thing, then you probably shouldn't attempt it unless it's an emergency. Some say a good GM doesn't need dice. I say that a GM who doesn't use dice where they're needed fails in his job. The various numbers on a player's sheet, along with suitable background material, should always determine how the character is played and how others react to them. They don't represent absolute ability to function exactly the same way under any circumstances at any time, though. They represent a general scope of ability. The dice show how a given character does at any specific time in any specific situation.

Examples:

1. A player comes up with a wonderfully stealthy plan, but their character has no clue how to do so, I'll flat out tell them that they don't know how to do that and they won't until they get the appropriate skills. I may let them try to implement it anyway, but it'll fail.

2. A player comes up with a wonderfully stealthy plan and their character has the ability to do so, but the others don't have the ability to implement it. They'll all still be rolling for themselves and it's likely that it'll go to hell. Still, for the good planning I'd give a mod to the players to help them along.

3. A player comes up with a wonderfully stealthy plan and all characters have the ability to do so and implement it. They'll all still be rolling, again with a mod for good planning, but failure is still failure. One lucky guard and one unlucky character makes for a blown plan.

Basically, nobody ever gets a free ride. All the planning you do won't overcome bad luck/information for you and/or good luck/information for them. It never has, it doesn't now, and it shouldn't in the game. Just because a person is good or even among the world's best at blackjack doesn't mean the house bends over when they walk in the door. The game still has to be played and the cards may not favor them that day. Same goes for everything else. Potential is all well and good, but show me results before I applaud.

[spotlite]

I think what SolidCobra has also been getting at is: why is the gun bunny always the target? Well, here's some thoughts on that.

The average gun bunny of the ilk we're talking about here looks like a threat. Often the biggest threat the bad guys are immediately facing. Lots of GBs sport obvious chrome, often obviously offensive chrome. They may have all silver cybereyes which is just odd, especially after Deus, they're probably sporting guns or other weapons.

Now, if the gun bunny is a human with no obvious ware except maybe a chance to spot reflex enhancements because of how he moves, ostensibly bearing only a pistol or an SMG, but there's a big fraggin' troll lurking behind him with an LMG, the troll is gonna cop for the first burst in my game. If there is a mage mid spell or with obvious spells sustained already then the geek the mage first 'rule' comes into play, then the troll will get it, assuming the GB hasn't leapt over there and torn them all a new drek hole.

Its about perception. If that same human was a total body conversion complete with macdonalds-pepsi sponsorship and an articulated arm mouting a chainsaw clutching in his hands his favorite assault cannon with 'betsy' stensilled on the side in his own blood (and not forgetting the multicoloured optic fibre mohican), then I'm afraid Mr Gunbunny has just earned himself twelve to eighteen round of hypervelocity lead as the bad guys freak out completely and ignore the possibility of the mage or the troll or anything except making whatever that thing is die. Giftwrapped, sir?

if you go somewhere inbetween with a GB who's wired, maybe a cybergun or other discreet, internal cyber, but is covered in body armour with a skillsoft jukebox maybe strapped to his leg, with a belt with spare clips, and general kit, and with his assault rifle or combat shotgun in his hands and almost certainly another back up gun or gun for a different job, then it becomes a more difficult assessment. As a GM, I'll make that assessment on an instance by instance basis. If the character does in fact scream 'target' at the bad guys, then he should expect those bad guys to deal with him if they can. If the player doesn't learn from this, then they can expect to be the ones usually shot at.

I had a player complain in my game a while back that they were the only ones getting shot fully auto at. The reason? they were an LMG wielding troll. The only other character in the group who looked like a threat (with an obvious cyberskull) got shot every bit as much as the troll, with the exception of if cover or range was a factor, since the troll didn't really hide so well...

The other characters in the group were adepts, or not-obvious magic users. they didn't look like a threat. once they cast a spell or somehow revealed the fact to the bad guys, they often DID get the geek the mage treatment.

Maybe it is your group that sucks, Solid, I don't know them really. But its my feeling that unless you're doing something to justify drawing fire more than others in the group, then you obviously shouldn't be drawing it.

[Kagetenshi]

[bwdemon]

Why is the gunbunny shot at most?

RP reasons: Looks most dangerous/scary of the group, enemies have a thing against character's race/look/whatever, gunbunny is in front of everyone else, everyone else is behind cover

Metagame reasons: can take the damage (best armor, highest body), GM just doesn't like gunbunnies

Random reasons: the dice said so, gunbunny is at the top of the "who gets shot at first" list

[Ol' Scratch]

There shouldn't be much of a question as to why the gunbunny gets shot at most. It's like wondering why deckers are the ones who get targeted by IC more than mages, or why mages take drain when they cast a spell while a rigger doesn't. It's what they do.

But I don't think that has anything to do with the topic at hand. The topic is a metagame "hatred" of them.

[Solidcobra]

take my current RL gunbunny as a example...
Ware that can be noticed: Wired Reflexes II, Dermal Sheat (is that spottable?), that's it!
and yet i get shot at the most, even if the Adept uses dual SMGs and i only use a single AR/SMG/Shotgun, even if the Troll wields a LMG, even if the mage just fried half the enemy squad and he shines with his nice "Armor" Spell.... and i just shot 2 of them (OMFG! The adept shot 3 and the troll shot 2.... the mage fried 5....)
Who gets targeted?
Is it the obvious mage that screams "I'm a mage, kill me!"?
Is it the troll with a LMG that just ripped their friends skulls out?
Is it the adept with dual SMGs that is keeping the survivors behind some boxes with suppressive fire?
NO!
It is.... you guessed it! The only one in the team with a essence lower than 2......
Sure, i survived, but why do they use APDS ammo on me? and not the mage or the troll?

gah, i guess all my GMs just plain suck (not my current online GM, he seems nice....)

[Kagetenshi]

Another reason is that because gunbunnies generally tend to be the simplest character type and the one most inexperienced players tend to start with, more people probably have memories of runs going horribly wrong as the result of the actions of a gunbunny than any other character type.

~J

[Tiralee]

Kagetenshi, Excellent point.

L.

"Uh, how come your magic 8-ball says "die?""
"That's because it's a Magic 8-Ball, cretin."

[gknoy]

[Kagetenshi]

It was quite an impressive mistake. Still, I'm partly to blame; never again will I try to make burst-fire dartguns! Fellow GMs, nearly killing characters with Narcoject overdoses is not a good idea for what is not intended to be the main fight of a run.

~J

[last_of_the_grea...]

Gunbunnies rule!

That said, there's more than 1 type of gunbunny. I'm assuming the problem is with gunbunnies that are really, really good at what they do but are out of line with the group's capabilities

I have found that a lot of these issues solve themselves if the GM tells the group before the campaign starts what the game concept is. That tends to make characters think about what they'll need as well as what they want. It also helps if they players make their characters at the same time and talk to each other about what they're making. But if ya try and mould the game to the characters after they're made and no player knew what any other player was making? Gah! Headaches!

[Tanka]

For one of my paused long-term IRL campaigns, we each had a niche to fill. We had two randoms, one mage, one rigger, and two meats. You made three characters to fill your niche, and stuck with one until it died or you felt it was time to retire it.

That can help resolve the "gunbunny" issue, since then the GM can make games around the niches working together. However, that is entirely up to the GM, and not the gunbunny. If the gunbunny takes the spotlight during combat, guess what...

IT'S HIS JOB!

Yell at the GM for making you fight, not the gunbunny for being good at what niche he's filling.

Make the gunbunny take Intimidation (Which, IMHO, shouldn't be linked to Cha, since most of the time you're trying to scare them, meaning you should have lower Cha than anything else).

[mfb]

Cha represents force of personality, not just luscious gams.

[Tanka]

True, in a way. Low Cha, as I see it, can either mean really hot and really arrogant, or really ugly, or he just can't talk to people without acting like an idiot.

High Cha could mean ugly and is just really good with people, or really hot and people just like to be around him because of his looks.

But this is all based on your own thoughts and views. To each their own.

[Kagetenshi]

[mfb]

doesn't she, though!

[Dim Sum]

Solidcobra, it looks like it's just your GM! :) So far, no one posting has said anything negative with regards to their own attitudes towards gunbunnies. And in view of your example of that firefight in which you were singled out for attack despite the more obvious threat posed by the others, especially the mage, I'd say your GM either has it in for you or your character, or has a bias against gun-toting sammies.

[Tanka]

*looks at all his Trolls wielding LMGs*

None of them ever died/were targetted because he was the gun-toting Sammie.

One did get put in jail for 10 or so years. He was fun.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's just bad GMing then. I know the first thing I would shoot at would be the huge ass monster with an equally huge ass weapon in his hand. I don't care if there's a freaky mage glowing blue standing next to him, the monster's getting my first clip of ammo.