Fun with Free/Ally Spirits!, Inhabitation Greatness and More! Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Neraph]

The following thread will be broken into multiple sections...

1) Inhabitation:

By conjuring a free spirit of any force (the lower the easier), or by taking the Ally Conjuration metamagic (and spending a whopping 8 karma and 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ), you can create/conjure an inhabitation spirit (preferably with Elemental Aura) and put it in a weapon. That weapon now is treated as Dual Natured, being able to be used against spirits and projecting mages more effectively (good for the group's Street Sam).

Now, since the spirit itself isn't making the attack, the rules become a little interesting at this point. If the spirit made the attack, the weapon would gain a +4 DV and all damage would become elemental in nature. If the weapon is attacked, the attacker has to save vs. a DV equal to the spirit's force (elemental damage as well). By a strict reading of the rules, the weapon would in fact gain no damage bonus; it would simply allow mundanes to attack spirits/manifested/astral forms and ignore their ItNW.

(Disclaimer!: House Rule Ahead!) I believe that if the spirit so inhabiting had the Energy Aura power, a safe, non-game-breaking compromise would be to allow the spirit's force to be added onto the weapon damage (Elemental effects as normal). This, however, is not needed. (/House Rule)

Theorhetically, you could simulate a lightsaber (or like weapon) under similar conditions. Inhabitation spirit with Elemental Aura (Any, Light would be fitting) and Natural Weapon inhabiting a metallic cylinder/sword hilt. The spirit manifests (not like astral manifestation, more like Spirit Mask) its Natural Weapon as a beam of energy, and whammo!

This would also be able to simulate various intelligent weapons throughout myth. The spirit can only talk through the weapon (to whomever is wielding the blade), ect.

The same technique can be used to gain the use of certain powers under certain situations (and to simulate items of significant power as seen in lore and myth), simply by causing an inhabitation spirit with certain powers to inhabit various objects. To make the deal more palatable for some casters, you could promise the freedom of the spirit after a number of tasks have been completed (either the favors owed by the Binding test, or a new number after forcing the spirit to inhabit the object).

Example: Bob, the wise-cracking skull in the Dresden files can be best surmised as an Inhabitation Guidance spirit of force 8+ taking residence in a human skull.

The above concepts are best implemented by mystic adepts; summoning, binding, and "enchanting" their own weapons and equipment.

2) Free Spirits:

This section is mainly for a discussion of free spirit PCs. Through my reading of free spirit rules in Runner's Companion, it would appear the game designers have something against the use of free spirit PCs.

The average 400 BP free spirit PC would be able to replicate roughly a force 2.5 spirit (meaning he could have all the stats of a force 2 spirit, with slightly higher force and some additional skills/abilities), whereas Street Magic tells us that free spirits of such, /ahem, delicate nature are very rare (from a bound - to - free status: most bound spirits that become free are F6+).

Not only that, but the power selection seems more like punishment than an option list. A standard bound spirit going free retains all their powers, and gains more depending on their new Edge, as opposed to free spirit PCs gaining "Spirit Points" (similar to adept's power points) equal to their Edge, and the average power costs 1.6 (rounded up).

I guess the "power" available from playing a free spirit helps mitigate the hate directed towards them, but honestly, if you've only got ~11 boxes in either of your condition monitors, you've got to expect to get disrupted almost every 'run, unless you go for the Concealment power and hope you aren't even seen. On the bright side, you're almost impossible to permanently banish (excpt by vengeful GMs except by vengeful corp mages), so you'll most likely be back soon. But that doesn't amount to much if you're missing much of the campaign (and subsequently most of the karma).

Upon writing this, it occurs to me I wouldn't have such a problem with free spirit PCs if they had instead called them Wild Spirit PCs, since wild spirits follow so many fewer of the "known rules" of spirits.

3) Theorhetical Application of Above:

What exactly would happen if an initiated mage with the Ally Conjuration metamagic summoned an inhabitation spirit into himself? How exactly would the rules cover this? More specifically, if he were to arrange the inhabitation to cause a Hybrid Form inhabitation merge. Would the mage have just found a (quasi) cheaper version of playing a more powerful free spirit (and follow the free spirit rules in Street Magic)? The core rules seem to point towards the PC losing control of the character, yet there is some wording within the Inhabitation power that may allow lenient DMs to let the PC retain his character, with appropriate RP changes.

End

So have I missed some things, or are the above more or less true? Discuss.

EDIT: Edited for final thougts and finishing touches. Also revised finishing thoughts for the debate from later pages.


EDIT: Added by me (Neraph), on 11/28/09 from post on: Nov 22 2009, 11:55 PM

4) Additional Information

In Running Wild, page 174, they have added very interesting rules for calling free/wild spirits and gaining favors from them, similar to summoning and binding (in that you can cause a spirit to appear and gain a number of favors from said spirit), under the Calling and Offering section.

The following is a condensed section of pertinent rules:

[ Spoiler ]

Occult Knowledge: Arcana + Logic (20, 1 day) Extended Test.

Crafting Paraphernelia: Enchanting + Magic (Force of Target Spirit, 1 day) Extended Test.

The Offering: Arcana + Logic (1) Test. This destroys the paraphernelia, causes no drain, and confers no services.

Bargaining: Negotiation + Charisma opposed by the spirit's Force + Edge.

The following involve the Spirit in question.

Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Perception, Unarmed Combat

Spirit Powers: Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Energy Drain (Karma), Inhabitation.

Qualities: Magician.

Inhabitation: Must have a prepared vessel. Enchanting + Magic (Object Resistance x3, 1 day) Extended Test and 2 refined or 1 radical reagent per 10 kilos of object (reagents are consumed during the process).

Advancement:
- It may raise its attributes, which start at a rating equal to the Force of the spirit.
- It may raise or gain new skills.
- It may initiate as a magician, although this process grants one additional free spirit power per grade instead of a metamagic technique. They are as follows:
* The spirit type's normal power list (in this case - none).
* One of the following powers: Astral Gateway, Aura Masking, Divining, Essence Drain, Materialization, Possession, or Realistic Form.
* Any metamagic technique. Free spirits use Edge in place of initiation grade.
* A unique free spirit power listed under Free Spirit Powers, p. 109 Street Magic.
- It may raise its Force, raising all attributes and powers based on Force, at the cost of new Force rating x 10.

5) Applicable Result/Guide

After completing an Occult Knowledge Test, you gain the information to Call a special type of spirit, with the powers listed above. You either craft yourself or have a contact craft for you the paraphernalia required to Call the spirit at Force 1 (two radical animal blood reagents, availability 8, 400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) total) and preparing a chosen weapon as a Prepared Vessel (one radical animal blood reagent, availability 8, 200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ). After successfully Calling the spirit, you bargain with it for the express reason of Inhabiting the weapon, using its powers (or powers it will gain) to keep you alive, and you will feed it with the life energy of your enemies; ie: "I know that spirits such as yourself are obsessed with power. I have a great amount of martial prowess. In return for you using your abilities to keep me alive, I will guarantee that you will feast on the souls of my enemies, adding their power to your own."

With their 2 dicepool against your Charisma + Negotiation (+ all those extra bonuses we all know and love), you will win.

The spirit (an apparent variant of a blood spirit) at Force 1 cannot gain a True Form Inhabitation Merge, as he cannot exceed the Object Resistance of the weapon you have chosen. This will result in either a Hybrid Form Inhabitation Merge (which is most desirable), or likely a Flesh Form Inhabitation Merge, causing the weapon to become Dual-Natured (now dangerous against those pesky astral forms) and much harder (Immunity [Normal Weapons]), among other things. Please note that this must take place inside a magical lodge with a Force equal or higher than that of the spirit, in this case, 1. Also, the only forseeable problem is that of the spirit in question Critically glitching on the Inhabitation check; this can be fixed with the spirit initially having the Guard power active on itself.

I present to you: Bloodmourne.

Alternatively (and more expensively), you can follow this same preceedure to similarly "enchant" barbed arrows (or bolts). As the arrow is stuck in the enemy, the spirit within begins to deal additional "DoT" (Damamge over Time) damage to him, gaining 1 point of karma per point of physical damage dealt (as per Energy Drain [Karma]). If the enemy wants to stop this, he must remove the barbed arrow.

I present to you: the Blooddrinker Arrows (I brainstormed these with Ragewind, and he insists they should be named Souldrinker Arrows, but as I'm posting this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) ).

A 1-Up for Blooddrinker Arrows would be using Injection Arrows as the base arrow, and remember to include a dose of Slab. As they lie there for at least an hour due to the Slab drug, your Bolt-Buddy finishes killing them to suck the karma out of their blood.

In all cases, the Bloodmourne™ system of Dual-Natured weapons manufacturing creates an extremely flexible system of creating a smart-weapon capable of aiding its wielder immensely (and possibly similarly to using mooks for hacking), and it only gets better over time.

[darthmord]

The part about Inhabitation...

The spirit may run afoul of the rules regarding being forced through wards and such. That may give grounds for the spirit-in-a-weapon to add its bonus damage to the attack.

A flaming sword should do more damage than a sword of the same make/model that doesn't have such a spirit in it. Those flames aren't illusory after all.

===================

The part about Free Spirits...

Keep in mind that BP costs were also assigned in such a manner as to represent relative rarity as well. Something that costs 100 BP is more rare than something that costs 30 BP. Or so it was said here on Dumpshock.

I tried to build one with 400 BP, 75k money, and 25 Karma (build requirements I was given). I stopped after getting through attributes and trying to get skills. Wasn't worth the effort IMO.

Cost was waay out of proportion for the benefits.

===================

Regarding the Theory...

Been talked about here before. Basically, the spirit goes free. It also gains all of your memories (with a good enough merge), skills, abilities, etc. Not supposed to get Conjuring but not sure if that ever got errata.

Most GMs I believe would NPC the mage character.

[DoomFrog]

I think you underestimate the power of a free spirit PC. Here is a pretty min/max'ed Free Spirit PC that is Force 6 using just the 400BP starting build system.

[ Spoiler ]

Race: Free Spirit (Spirit of Fire) (250 BP)
Attributes (125 BP)
B:2
A:2
R:2
S:2
C:2
I:4
L:2
W:4
E:5
Force:6

Active Skills (40 BP)
Spellcasting: 5
Counterspellcasting: 5

Knowledge Skills (18 Free BP)
Spirits (Spirits of Fire): 5
Magic Background: 4
Magic Theory: 4
Magical Threats: 4

Qualities (+35 BP)
Gremlins 3 (+15BP)
Uneducated (+20BP)

Spells (15 BP)
Flamethrower
Heal
Chaos
Shapechange
Fling

Spirit Powers
Immunity to Normal Weapons
Banishment Resistance
Materialization
Regeneration

Pacts
Friendship Pact

Possessions (0 BP)
Street Lifestyle

The character would be a powerful spirit that was recently freed. Knowing very little about the real world, and having no possessions it joined with the group of runners it meet to learn more about the world. Of course for this character to work you would need 3+ other runners in the group, and you might still need to fill out the friendship pact with some of the groups more trusted contacts. But you would not take damage unless the enemy did more than 12, and when you do take damage you have a 8DP for regen. The wording in Runner's Companion says "The spirit may not return to Earth until it has completely healed, again using the same rules as metahumans." So the character could still regen and use a Heal spell, and would return immediately after fully healing because of Friendship Pact.

As for your second question about a mage PC using an Inhabitation Spirit on himself to become a quasi Free Spirit, a mage could do it. The only problem with that is that the mage's spirit is destroyed and the Inhabitation Spirit now controls the mage's body. So technically the PC's character would be killed and the NPC spirit would take over his character's body. If the GM was fine with the PC playing the new Inhibitation Spirit, then it would work. Otherwise, the character would have killed himself.

[Neraph]

How would the bound foci work into this? Core, the person dies, the spirit takes over, the foci deactivate, the spirit cannot bind.

However, the notes of Inhabitation state that (up to the GM) the person's spirit doesn't have to be consumed. Think Prince Arthas becoming the Lich King. And then, how would bound foci work?

[darthmord]

Well, given the nature of the change...

I would say either "Congrats! you have now have barter material. Spirits cannot bind foci."

or...

"You have to re-bind the foci. Remember, Inhabiting spirits with a good merge inherit the host's skills, memories, and abilities. That would include the ability to bind foci IMO.

On a side note, I have wondered what would happen to an Inhabiting Spirit that crossed the threshold into a downcycle of mana. IE: It's in a human body at the end of the 6th World and enters the 7th. Would it be forced back to the metaplanes?

[DoomFrog]

How would the bound foci work into this? Core, the person dies, the spirit takes over, the foci deactivate, the spirit cannot bind.

However, the notes of Inhabitation state that (up to the GM) the person's spirit doesn't have to be consumed. Think Prince Arthas becoming the Lich King. And then, how would bound foci work?

I don't think you would use a Binding Foci when dealing with a Inhabitation Spirit. Basically you would summon a spirit with the Inhabitation skill, then using one of your services you would ask it to inhabit you. But once your services ran out, the Inhabiting spirit would take over your body.

And looking into it more, the PC's mind isn't destroyed when inhabited by a summoned spirit.

A conjurer whose body is possessed by a spirit he summoned can retain some control by issuing mental commands to the spirit (in a manner similar to a hacker/rigger and a subscribed drone). In this case, the conjurer is aware of the spirit's actions (he still perceives through his body), but he has only indirect control rather than direct motor control.

It basically the spirit makes all the skill tests you just decide which ones to make.

But that brings up the question of what happens when your services run out. You summon a spirit with 5 services. You use 1 to have it inhabit you. Once the other 4 are up, the spirit takes control. So you go with the original idea and use a Ally Spirit, who would still follow your orders.

So after all this, yes. A magician that gains an Ally Spirit could have it inhabit his/her own body, thus becoming a quasi Free Spirit character. Except that you wouldn't have the "no permanate death" of a real Free Spirit character. If your inhabitation resulted in True Form, your body would be destroyed and when the spirit was disrupted your body wouldn't exist to resummon your Ally Spirit. And with Hybrid and Flesh form, your body would be killed if you took enough damage, thus you would die.

[Starmage21]

I think you underestimate the power of a free spirit PC. Here is a pretty min/max'ed Free Spirit PC that is Force 6 using just the 400BP starting build system.

[ Spoiler ]

Race: Free Spirit (Spirit of Fire) (250 BP)
Attributes (125 BP)
B:2
A:2
R:2
S:2
C:2
I:4
L:2
W:4
E:5
Force:6

Active Skills (40 BP)
Spellcasting: 5
Counterspellcasting: 5

Knowledge Skills (18 Free BP)
Spirits (Spirits of Fire): 5
Magic Background: 4
Magic Theory: 4
Magical Threats: 4

Qualities (+35 BP)
Gremlins 3 (+15BP)
Uneducated (+20BP)

Spells (15 BP)
Flamethrower
Heal
Chaos
Shapechange
Fling

Spirit Powers
Immunity to Normal Weapons
Banishment Resistance
Materialization
Regeneration

Pacts
Friendship Pact

Possessions (0 BP)
Street Lifestyle

The character would be a powerful spirit that was recently freed. Knowing very little about the real world, and having no possessions it joined with the group of runners it meet to learn more about the world. Of course for this character to work you would need 3+ other runners in the group, and you might still need to fill out the friendship pact with some of the groups more trusted contacts. But you would not take damage unless the enemy did more than 12, and when you do take damage you have a 8DP for regen. The wording in Runner's Companion says "The spirit may not return to Earth until it has completely healed, again using the same rules as metahumans." So the character could still regen and use a Heal spell, and would return immediately after fully healing because of Friendship Pact.

That character is certainly high force, but nowhere near what an actual force 6 conjured spirit that can do everything the free spirit can, but better, and have better attributes, and even better edge. You still get your disruption just as was stated above. Free spirits are worthless as PCs with the current costs.

[Neraph]

I don't think you would use a Binding Foci when dealing with a Inhabitation Spirit. Basically you would summon a spirit with the Inhabitation skill, then using one of your services you would ask it to inhabit you. But once your services ran out, the Inhabiting spirit would take over your body.

And looking into it more, the PC's mind isn't destroyed when inhabited by a summoned spirit.



It basically the spirit makes all the skill tests you just decide which ones to make.

But that brings up the question of what happens when your services run out. You summon a spirit with 5 services. You use 1 to have it inhabit you. Once the other 4 are up, the spirit takes control. So you go with the original idea and use a Ally Spirit, who would still follow your orders.

So after all this, yes. A magician that gains an Ally Spirit could have it inhabit his/her own body, thus becoming a quasi Free Spirit character. Except that you wouldn't have the "no permanate death" of a real Free Spirit character. If your inhabitation resulted in True Form, your body would be destroyed and when the spirit was disrupted your body wouldn't exist to resummon your Ally Spirit. And with Hybrid and Flesh form, your body would be killed if you took enough damage, thus you would die.

You're confusing posession with inhabitation. Posession works like how you're talking, inhabitation is completely different. And Ally Spirits have infinite tasks owed.

And I wasn't talking about a Binding Focus, I was talking about having any foci bound to the caster at all.

[Neraph]

That character is certainly high force, but nowhere near what an actual force 6 conjured spirit that can do everything the free spirit can, but better, and have better attributes, and even better edge. You still get your disruption just as was stated above. Free spirits are worthless as PCs with the current costs.

That was exactly my point.

Now, if they cost even 350 BP, and started with the core 5 "spirit skills" at a rating equal to their force, and had powers more in line with what real spirits get, then yeah I can see myself playing one. But currently, nope. Not really.

Which is why I found my "Fun with Inhabitation and Ally Spirit" loophole. It's even more broken if used in karmagen.

[Starmage21]

That was exactly my point.

Now, if they cost even 350 BP, and started with the core 5 "spirit skills" at a rating equal to their force, and had powers more in line with what real spirits get, then yeah I can see myself playing one. But currently, nope. Not really.

Which is why I found my "Fun with Inhabitation and Ally Spirit" loophole. It's even more broken if used in karmagen.

Yeah, karmagen free spirits can get nasty, but still only getting close to what non-free spirits have at their disposal.

[Neraph]

No, I was talking about using the karmagen rules to build an Ally Spirit to inhabit you. I think you could easily afford a force 10, maybe even a force 12 Ally Spirit (and the magic 6 required to conjure it), not to mention a slew of spells and a handful of skills to give it (at force 10-12).

[merashin]

hey, i was making a free spirit as a character for fun, and had a question. If I am possession tradition, and inside a homunculus what exactly would happen if i cast the shapechange spell? would the homunculus shift, or would the spell just fizzle? And would the attributes of the form of the homunculus be modified by force as per normal, or not? I didn't feel like starting a new thread to ask this, so i just asked in a thread that is already about free spirit characters.

[Draco18s]

Simple answer:
The universe implodes.

(Because the writers couldn't think of a valid reason not to stuff a Bag of Holding into a Bag of Holding).

Long answer:
I honestly don't know.

[Neraph]

I would say the homunculus changes form.

EDIT: However, as soon as you were to leave the homunculus, it would revert to being statuary: it wouldn't remain an animal.

[AllTheNothing]

I think you underestimate the power of a free spirit PC. Here is a pretty min/max'ed Free Spirit PC that is Force 6 using just the 400BP starting build system.

[ Spoiler ]

Race: Free Spirit (Spirit of Fire) (250 BP)
Attributes (125 BP)
B:2
A:2
R:2
S:2
C:2
I:4
L:2
W:4
E:5
Force:6

Active Skills (40 BP)
Spellcasting: 5
Counterspellcasting: 5

Knowledge Skills (18 Free BP)
Spirits (Spirits of Fire): 5
Magic Background: 4
Magic Theory: 4
Magical Threats: 4

Qualities (+35 BP)
Gremlins 3 (+15BP)
Uneducated (+20BP)

Spells (15 BP)
Flamethrower
Heal
Chaos
Shapechange
Fling

Spirit Powers
Immunity to Normal Weapons
Banishment Resistance
Materialization
Regeneration

Pacts
Friendship Pact

Possessions (0 BP)
Street Lifestyle

The character would be a powerful spirit that was recently freed. Knowing very little about the real world, and having no possessions it joined with the group of runners it meet to learn more about the world. Of course for this character to work you would need 3+ other runners in the group, and you might still need to fill out the friendship pact with some of the groups more trusted contacts. But you would not take damage unless the enemy did more than 12, and when you do take damage you have a 8DP for regen. The wording in Runner's Companion says "The spirit may not return to Earth until it has completely healed, again using the same rules as metahumans." So the character could still regen and use a Heal spell, and would return immediately after fully healing because of Friendship Pact.

As for your second question about a mage PC using an Inhabitation Spirit on himself to become a quasi Free Spirit, a mage could do it. The only problem with that is that the mage's spirit is destroyed and the Inhabitation Spirit now controls the mage's body. So technically the PC's character would be killed and the NPC spirit would take over his character's body. If the GM was fine with the PC playing the new Inhibitation Spirit, then it would work. Otherwise, the character would have killed himself.

I would go for Power Pact instead of Friendship Pact, friendsip pact cappes the maximum force that the spirit can reach, and forces the spirit to bind itself to mortals, while the power pact endes after 24 hours, and the cost of the quality in Street Magic is what the spirit askes in return for granting the power, nothing forbids the spirit from granting it for free (your teammates are going to love the regeneration and IfNW powers), and lets face it, it's a great way to harvest karma, which gang would turn down the opportunity of having IfNW AND regeneration?

[Neraph]

I would go for Power Pact instead of Friendship Pact, friendsip pact cappes the maximum force that the spirit can reach, and forces the spirit to bind itself to mortals, while the power pact endes after 24 hours, and the cost of the quality in Street Magic is what the spirit askes in return for granting the power, nothing forbids the spirit from granting it for free (your teammates are going to love the regeneration and IfNW powers), and lets face it, it's a great way to harvest karma, which gang would turn down the opportunity of having IfNW AND regeneration?

Friendship Pact + magical group contact = Gold.

Let's do a Contact 2/Loyalty 5 (maybe 6) group with 20-99 people in it (+2), Sprawl-Wide (+2), and most members have magical talents (+4). For 15 BP we have an infinite pool for our Friendship Pact to pull from.

EDIT: Don't forget you get a pact for free, and can take additional ones for 1 SP (Spirit Point, not to be confused with adepts). Grab Power Pact, Drain Pact, or something else, and go to town with your own 90-person magical group! Charge 1 karma a week each for the ability to add your Force to their drain as many times as they want each day, and at Loyalty 5 (6 for 1 additional BP) they'll jump at the chance! Welcome to 90 karma/week.

[darthmord]

Friendship Pact + magical group contact = Gold.

Let's do a Contact 2/Loyalty 5 (maybe 6) group with 20-99 people in it (+2), Sprawl-Wide (+2), and most members have magical talents (+4). For 15 BP we have an infinite pool for our Friendship Pact to pull from.

EDIT: Don't forget you get a pact for free, and can take additional ones for 1 SP (Spirit Point, not to be confused with adepts). Grab Power Pact, Drain Pact, or something else, and go to town with your own 90-person magical group! Charge 1 karma a week each for the ability to add your Force to their drain as many times as they want each day, and at Loyalty 5 (6 for 1 additional BP) they'll jump at the chance! Welcome to 90 karma/week.

LOL... I hadn't thought of that. ~90 Karma/week means for some serious advancement. That rate of income would quickly cover and remove most of the weaknesses of a Free Spirit.

That said, I doubt most GMs would allow such twinkery. Though could you imagine a Face-like Free Spirit? It'd be able to talk most magic users into that Pact without much trouble and BAM! Road to Success ™.

[Neraph]

That said, I doubt most GMs would allow such twinkery. Though could you imagine a Face-like Free Spirit? It'd be able to talk most magic users into that Pact without much trouble and BAM! Road to Success ™.

Exactly. I noticed that trick the second I finished reading Free Spirits in Runner's Companion, then checking the Spirit Pact rules in Street Magic. It was worded in such a way to make one assume that you got Spirit Pact power for free, but as I remembered them, all Pacts were under Spirit Pact.

Street Magic suggested not all spirits that can give Pacts have all Pacts, and Runner's Companion pretty much made that the rule.

[InfinityzeN]

In a year that would be the scariest spirit anyone has ever seen. Even slanting towards a smaller group of only 40 people, you still looking at over two thousand karma in a year! Increase the group size to 48 and your looking at over two hundred karma a month.

[Neraph]

Using the methods described above, we can also gain an Ally Spirit far better than any Weapon/Power focus you can buy.

For example: A Force 2 Weapon Focus/Force 2 Power Focus counts as a Force 4 Stacked Focus and costs 70,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) with a 20R Availability and costs 22 karma to bind.

On the other hand, we can take 24 karma (2 more karma) and make a Force 3 Inhabitation Ally Spirit to Inhabit a sword, gaining no extra dice to attack like you would a weapon focus, but the weapon is now Dual Natured, still allowing us to attack creatures with ItNW. We also gain a net +1 dice to spellcasting (using the Ally Spirit's Aid Sorcery ability), although we don't get the bonus to all uses of our Magic attribute. If we give the Ally Spirit interesting powers, we get a more versatile Spirit Weapon™.

For the sake of argument, let's make the weapon a staff, and the Conjurer a Hermetic Mage. He chooses Elemental Aura (Fire), Concealment, and Guard. He now has a flaming staff that deals (Str/2+5)P(fire) damage with 2 reach and -1/2 AP, and can now give anyone trying to see the Conjurer a -3 penalty on their rolls (including Assensing), and completely protects him from glitches.

This can, of course, become much more interesting if said Conjurer has his Ally Spirit Inhabit a Power/Weapon focus.

This concept has a very large power curve, by the way.

EDIT: Note: That is assuming a mage with Ally Conjuration. It is free (karma-wise) to track down a Free Spirit's Spirit Formula, summon him, then cause him to Inhabit a weapon. If done right, he might even thank you.

[Draco18s]

LOL... I hadn't thought of that. ~90 Karma/week means for some serious advancement. That rate of income would quickly cover and remove most of the weaknesses of a Free Spirit.

That said, I doubt most GMs would allow such twinkery. Though could you imagine a Face-like Free Spirit? It'd be able to talk most magic users into that Pact without much trouble and BAM! Road to Success ™.

...did we just create the SR version of Pun-Pun?

[Neraph]

...did we just create the SR version of Pun-Pun?

.. I think so.

EDIT: That 90 karma/week is being nice too. With a 2/6 contact (not changing the BP cost) we could even charge 1 karma/day.

90 karma/day. Think about that.

[darthmord]

In a year that would be the scariest spirit anyone has ever seen. Even slanting towards a smaller group of only 40 people, you still looking at over two thousand karma in a year! Increase the group size to 48 and your looking at over two hundred karma a month.

In under a year I imagine it'd be able to challenge a pack of Great Dragons and win. 2000 Karma is a lot of points to spend and buff up with, especially with the breadth of access to fun things that Spirits have if you can get the karma for them.

[AllTheNothing]

Don't forget that Friendship pact caps the spirit force to the number of people involved, if something brings down the number of people that has made the pact with the spirit the force is going down (and the GM will make sure it will happen at a certain point), on the other hand a Life pact, Drain pact, Magic pact and Power pact can be very tempting for metahumans granting a (posibly) lower karma gains within short timeframe but allowing to eventualy reach higher force in the long run (the magic group can still be befriended/exploited after all).

[Neraph]

Don't forget that Friendship pact caps the spirit force to the number of people involved, if something brings down the number of people that has made the pact with the spirit the force is going down (and the GM will make sure it will happen at a certain point), on the other hand a Life pact, Drain pact, Magic pact and Power pact can be very tempting for metahumans granting a (posibly) lower karma gains within short timeframe but allowing to eventualy reach higher force in the long run (the magic group can still be befriended/exploited after all).

Why not multiples? A basic, no frills added Free Spirit PC can get 3 Spirit Pacts. Drain, Life, and another one of your choice (you're not going to stay F4-ish long enough to worry about the 30 - Force days from being disrupted).

[Stormdrake]

So have a player who has made a Free Spirit character. The spirit is of the Vodoo tradition and therefore has posession rather than materilization. At 400BP the resulting character on average has lower stats than any of the other toons. Yes, he does have access to some interesting powers but with the new change to stat cost the Free Spirit player is really getting smacked. To counter this, the posession track is about the only way to get a playable toon at chargen as far as I can see. I like the spirit pack work around but as the ST I can't let him do that as it would unbalance the game way to much and the other players would soon mutiny, lol.

[Neraph]

So have a player who has made a Free Spirit character. The spirit is of the Vodoo tradition and therefore has posession rather than materilization. At 400BP the resulting character on average has lower stats than any of the other toons. Yes, he does have access to some interesting powers but with the new change to stat cost the Free Spirit player is really getting smacked. To counter this, the posession track is about the only way to get a playable toon at chargen as far as I can see. I like the spirit pack work around but as the ST I can't let him do that as it would unbalance the game way to much and the other players would soon mutiny, lol.

Exactly.

For posession, he should get the 30 BP Negative Quality "In Debt", giving him an extra 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . With that, he should go buy himself a Plassteel Homunculus. That'll give him the staying power he needs until he can raise force a little more.

Also, (if you want to) tell him about the Magical Group Contact idea and suggest the Power Pact. That way he gets a few spells for entering into Pacts with his Voodoo group (helping him out a little bit in the versatility department).

Or hell, let him get a Troll 1/6 contact that he posesses.

[DamienKnight]

No, I was talking about using the karmagen rules to build an Ally Spirit to inhabit you. I think you could easily afford a force 10, maybe even a force 12 Ally Spirit (and the magic 6 required to conjure it), not to mention a slew of spells and a handful of skills to give it (at force 10-12).

It may not be limited by RAW, but common sense (and a desire for balance) has caused my group to house rule that you cannot create an Ally spirit whose magic rating is higher than your own.

If using karma gen, with initiation (assumed if you are allowing ally conjuration) you could still intiation 3 times and raise your magic to 9, then start with a force 9 spirit.

One of the characters in my game just create a initiate 2 magic 8 mage with a force 8 ally spirit. The spirit is very powerful, but I am just glad the player is spending less time with his Vampire Mystic Adept with force 6 possession spirits!

[Neraph]

It may not be limited by RAW, but common sense (and a desire for balance) has caused my group to house rule that you cannot create an Ally spirit whose magic rating is higher than your own.

If using karma gen, with initiation (assumed if you are allowing ally conjuration) you could still intiation 3 times and raise your magic to 9, then start with a force 9 spirit.

One of the characters in my game just create a initiate 2 magic 8 mage with a force 8 ally spirit. The spirit is very powerful, but I am just glad the player is spending less time with his Vampire Mystic Adept with force 6 possession spirits!

If he had read this thread, that Magic 8 ally spirit would have Inhabitation and it would have long since become him. Even with your houserule of Ally Spirit's Force, you could still get extremely powerful Ally Spirits.

For example, pay the karma for your guy to have Sorcery skillgroup 1, Ranged Weapon Skill of your choice 1, and a few other skills at 1. Get your Magic to 8, get a few spell formulae (with cash), and when you sit down for your Ally Spirit's Formula, pop the 5 karma/skill for all those r1 skills of yours to become r8 for the spirit, as well as the 5 karma/spell for the ally spirit to know the spells that are on your commlink. Then get it to inhabit you.

[DamienKnight]

Inhabitation cannot be channeled, so the mage would no longer have control of himself. That means the player is basically retired, now controlled by an NPC spirit.

[Neraph]

Inhabitation cannot be channeled, so the mage would no longer have control of himself. That means the player is basically retired, now controlled by an NPC spirit.

If you choose to play it that way. Otherwise, the person retains control of a now free spirit, based off of his old character. That is the entire point of this thread; go back and read my opening post.

For example; a hermetic mage goes through the process of creating an ally spirit to inhabit himself, and the spirit's form is actually his idealized self. He forces a Hybrid Merge, so the spirit retains fragments of his memories (but does not gain his knowledge skills). For all intents and purposes, that ally spirit (now a free spirit) has some of his memories, and his entire personality. The only reason you wouldn't allow this is because you don't want to.

[Ravor]

No, I wouldn't allow it because no matter how you cut it, the Spirit is a NPC and is not the Mage in question, it's the same reason that I wouldn't allow a character burn his personity onto a BTL personafix and then play an army of "himself".

[Neraph]

No, I wouldn't allow it because no matter how you cut it, the Spirit is a NPC and is not the Mage in question, it's the same reason that I wouldn't allow a character burn his personity onto a BTL personafix and then play an army of "himself".

Ok, so you choose not to allow it. That doesn't mean that someone else won't allow it. This is an extremely clever idea, and I would allow it, so long as a hybrid or flesh form (especially a flesh form merge) is obtained.

[Zormal]

Ok, so you choose not to allow it. That doesn't mean that someone else won't allow it. This is an extremely clever idea, and I would allow it, so long as a hybrid or flesh form (especially a flesh form merge) is obtained.

It would definitely be a powergaming houserule.
Why not play a free spirit to begin with?

Edit: You could go for a 600BP build or more, since you're going for a high-powered game.

[Neraph]

It would definitely be a powergaming houserule.
Why not play a free spirit to begin with?

Edit: You could go for a 600BP build or more, since you're going for a high-powered game.

This is not meant for chargen, although you can pull it off if you use karmagen. And, if you read the actual OP, you'll see that the rules for making free spirits suck ***. Seriously, in order to get all the things a summoned spirit gets, you'd be a Force 2.5 character, but you would only have 2 Spirit Points worth of spirit powers, which is almost useless (compared to an actual spirit).

[Zormal]

This is not meant for chargen, although you can pull it off if you use karmagen. And, if you read the actual OP, you'll see that the rules for making free spirits suck ***. Seriously, in order to get all the things a summoned spirit gets, you'd be a Force 2.5 character, but you would only have 2 Spirit Points worth of spirit powers, which is almost useless (compared to an actual spirit).

Yes, that is true. It's mostly because they tried to keep the resulting PCs somewhat balanced with other metatypes. If you want a higher-powered game, you have to change some things. Upping the BPs (throw in some Karma) to get to the wanted level seemed like the simplest way to go.

What you've done is allow the player to play an NPC that has been made without any BP (or Karma) limits - the Spirit. Removing the limits can be fun, though often players end up lacking any long-term goals.

Just make sure everyone around the table has their own über character to go with that Spirit and you're in for a (un)healthy amount of carnage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: Similarly, you could switch to playing Harlequin or a Dragon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Ravor]

So tell me, would you allow someone to play an army of personafixed "clones" that was custom made for him?

[Neraph]

Yes, that is true. It's mostly because they tried to keep the resulting PCs somewhat balanced with other metatypes. If you want a higher-powered game, you have to change some things. Upping the BPs (throw in some Karma) to get to the wanted level seemed like the simplest way to go.

What you've done is allow the player to play an NPC that has been made without any BP (or Karma) limits - the Spirit. Removing the limits can be fun, though often players end up lacking any long-term goals.

Just make sure everyone around the table has their own über character to go with that Spirit and you're in for a (un)healthy amount of carnage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: Similarly, you could switch to playing Harlequin or a Dragon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Actually, no, the main point of the thread was an Ally Spirit, which costs a lot of karma. The one I'm currently testing cost me 109 karma, and that's not including the Initiation.

[Neraph]

So tell me, would you allow someone to play an army of personafixed "clones" that was custom made for him?

One at a time, and as long as they had the Escaped Clone positive quality.

Or; the player paid out the cash to get full body clones of himself and trained them. Seeing as how a new clone would still have the mentality of a child, they would either require Personafixes to function or a Stirrup Interface with a Pilot program with the Personality Interface (last option prolly works better).

But yes, if he figures out how to accomplish it in the rules, there is no reason that I should disallow it.

EDIT: Another way of saying that is this: it is a sign of a bad GM when you disallow something that is within the ruleset, simply because the GM feels threatened by a more clever player.

[darthmord]

It may not be limited by RAW, but common sense (and a desire for balance) has caused my group to house rule that you cannot create an Ally spirit whose magic rating is higher than your own.

Why not? You can summon PER RAW a Spirit whose Force / Magic is up to 2x your Magic attribute.

I like your appeals to 'common sense' & 'a desire for balance'. Nice subtle slam against everyone who doesn't see it your way as lacking in such faculties.

[Neraph]

Why not? You can summon PER RAW a Spirit whose Force / Magic is up to 2x your Magic attribute.

I like your appeals to 'common sense' & 'a desire for balance'. Nice subtle slam against everyone who doesn't see it your way as lacking in such faculties.

You're last line seems a little like an invitation to a flamethrower war, and due to the Geneva Conventions considering humane warefare, I think you should weigh your comments a little more carefully.

That being said, I agree. The common sense part was a little insulting (and not really common sense at all; you of course can over-summon spirits, and Ally Spirits are simply a different type of spirit), but I do understand the 'desire for balance'.


EDIT: It should also be noted that an "out of the box" Insect Shaman can use this technique, albeit only using a normal summoned spirit, not an Ally. But, if the shaman summons, say, a Soldier or Nymph spirit, it actually works out fairly well.

[Zormal]

Actually, no, the main point of the thread was an Ally Spirit, which costs a lot of karma. The one I'm currently testing cost me 109 karma, and that's not including the Initiation.

Granted. But the Karma used for an Ally that you can't directly control (and that has other player limitations as well) is totally disproportional to building a like character from scratch, like you said yourself when you compared it to building a Free Spirit.

I'm just gonna say this once more as clearly as I can, and then drop it. Killing yourself by getting Inhabited and then playing the next entity in your body is not within the rules. In fact, it goes directly against RAW, which state "During merging, the vessel's original spirit is consumed and for all intents and purposes that character is essentially lost" (Street Magic p.100). I don't really see how this is open to interpretation.

You can still play it that way, of course, and if everyone around the table enjoys themselves after the rules change, I'm happy for you.

[Neraph]

In fact, it goes directly against RAW, which state "During merging, the vessel's original spirit is consumed and for all intents and purposes that character is essentially lost" (Street Magic p.100). I don't really see how this is open to interpretation.

Please quote things in their entirety. I understand why you would not like to, as it directly disagrees with your views. You left out the important part:

(though, as always, gamemasters may decide otherwise if appropriate to their stories).

Also, I refer you to Flesh Form merges:

The combined entity retains all of the memories, abilities, and skills (both Active and Knowledge) of the host...

Although a hybrid merge is the most desireable, as you can still use DNI.

...though it only has few of the host's memories and none of its skills... Unlike posession spirits, hybrid form merges can operate a direct neural interface and the host's cyberware (if any) continues to function for the spirit.

[Zormal]

The GM can, as always, change any rule as they wish. I didn't think it necessary to include that in my quote. I see it as a possibility for a story, not so much as an rules alternative, but I can see how that is open to interpretation. I'm still standing by what I said (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As to the sidebar, I don't see how it's relevant. The resulting entity is the Spirit (or a new entity created in the merge, if you want to see it that way), which ate and digested the mage's memories.

If you create an Ally and have it Inhabit your worst enemy, the resulting merge would still be loyal to you, because it's the spirit and not the (now dead) enemy. It would only have the host's memory of hating you.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I hope this didn't come out too pushy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ravor]

Neraph so tell me, why have you choosen to disallow a character's clever plan of playing an army of "himself" via P-Fixs? I never said anything about using wimps either, just BTL Grade P-Fixes.

[Neraph]

Neraph so tell me, why have you choosen to disallow a character's clever plan of playing an army of "himself" via P-Fixs? I never said anything about using wimps either, just BTL Grade P-Fixes.

Tell me where I said I wouldn't allow it.

But yes, if he figures out how to accomplish it in the rules, there is no reason that I should disallow it.

I said it's fine, and I gave some examples of how it would be accomplished. Now, if he just wanted people p-fixed to himself, he couldn't start with it, as there is no pricetag for people in the book. There is one for wimps, though. And as soon as he entered game, figured out a way to detain people, and equipped them with the proper gear, then yes, it would be possible and I would not disallow it.

That does not mean, however, that the 'Star might allow it. Or the people's families may put a 'run out on the p-fixer. Those are not angry GM taking it out in game for a character's cleverness. That is simply using a player's roleplay/in game actions to determine likeable outcomes and provide further gaming.

[Ravor]

One at a time, and as long as they had the Escaped Clone positive quality.

So tell me, which statement reflects your posistion, will you artifically enforce a "one at a time" rule or would you let the character control multiple P-Fixes at the same time?

[Neraph]

So tell me, which statement reflects your posistion, will you artifically enforce a "one at a time" rule or would you let the character control multiple P-Fixes at the same time?

Um, if you read the rest of my two posts, I actually do say how it is possible to play more than one person at a time. You seem to be only reading what you want to read.

EDIT: And in any event, the possibility of playing an army of p-fixed clones does not in any way prevent someone from using an Inhabitation Ally Spirit to Lich King himself.

[Ravor]

No, in one post you said that you'd allow them to play one character at a time and in the other you left the possiblity of playing more than one character at a time I was asking which one you are prepared to stand by.


And the two situations are closely connected as they both involved allowing a player to control a NPC.

[McAllister]

Neraph, I think Ravor is actually trying to guide you towards a sort of philosophical question; what is the player? Is it the character's mind, or the character's soul? Perhaps his assertion is that "if the player assumes the role of the character's mind, and the character inserts his mind into multiple bodies, the player should have control over each of those bodies." However, I suspect he's playing Devil's Advocate; perhaps the point he's REALLY trying to make is "it's ridiculous to think you could play more than one person using P-fix chips because, even if they all have the same mind, you [the player] are only playing as your one unique character. If that character's soul is obliterated, what have you got left? Sure a lenient GM could let you play as the spirit who took over your body, but then again, a lenient GM could let you play as Lofwyr and destroy Tokyo. Obliterating your own soul simply doesn't make any sense."

Now, Ravor, I apologize deeply if I misrepresented your point of view. I just thought I might understand where you were going with your comment.

[Ravor]

Actually I think you summed it up better than I could have, do you work on retainer? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Neraph]

No, in one post you said that you'd allow them to play one character at a time and in the other you left the possiblity of playing more than one character at a time I was asking which one you are prepared to stand by.


And the two situations are closely connected as they both involved allowing a player to control a NPC.

Well, if that logic were to be followed, one could not control drones either. Or posession-based spirits posessing the summoner.

If you pay money/karma for the use of NPCs, and have rules to support your claim to their autonomy, then by all means, let not something so simple as "I didn't think of that, you can't do it" get in the way of progress.

[Ravor]

A couple of problems, first drones are designed to take orders and be "jumped into", it is their nature as machines. Secondly, a "pocessed Mage" doesn't get to control his character per say, he just gets to order the spirit around for as long as he has services left and the DM is perfectly within his/her rights to say "No, the Spirit does this instead." And thirdly, you aen't talking about something as simple as a pocession, you are talking about literally allowing your character's soul and mind to be eaten by an inhuman enity made up of magical engeries, and one that happens to be a NPC.

Now with that said, if the character was the spirit with the inhabation power I wouldn't really have a problem with allowing it, but I don't think inhabation is a legal power for PC Free Spirits to have.

[McAllister]

Ravor: what the hell, why not? Maybe I'll go make my services available on Welcome to the Shadows.

Neraph: My interpretation of the rules is that the rules only ever want you to be controlling one thing at a time. If you want to control a drone and your meatbody, you options boil down to splitting your IPs between the two and taking serious penalties, or staying in your meatbody and issuing orders to the drone's pilot, or jumping into the drone and letting your Transys Steed drive your meatbody around. That is to say, it doesn't matter what you're controlling, as long as it's only one thing competently (or two things poorly).

Possession spirits are actually a serious hitch in this. RAW explicitly states that a possessed magician is in fact powerless in his own body (unless he has Channelling), but suggests the player be allowed to roleplay the possessing spirit. However, the GM would be perfectly within RAW to limit the player to issuing commands to the spirit via services. I guess at the end of the day (as is always the case at the end of days) it's about finding the interpretation that works at a given table.

EDIT REPLY: Inhabitation is a great (and IIRC, explicitly legal) power for ally spirits to have, perhaps more so than Possession. However, it works most simply when your ally inhabits something like a homunculus, or that Troll who shoved you when you were growing up. He deserves having his soul eat, really.

EDIT, READ THE DAMn THING: Ah, free spirits. Not ally spirits. Makes more sense now.

[Neraph]

A couple of problems, first drones are designed to take orders and be "jumped into", it is their nature as machines. Secondly, a "pocessed Mage" doesn't get to control his character per say, he just gets to order the spirit around for as long as he has services left and the DM is perfectly within his/her rights to say "No, the Spirit does this instead." And thirdly, you aen't talking about something as simple as a pocession, you are talking about literally allowing your character's soul and mind to be eaten by an inhuman enity made up of magical engeries, and one that happens to be a NPC.

An Ally spirit is designed to take orders; it is its nature as an ally spirit. Also, it should be noted (again) that the character's soul and mind ARE NOT NECCESSARILY destroyed, and are in no way described as being "eaten."

Do you even see my reference?

Now with that said, if the character was the spirit with the inhabation power I wouldn't really have a problem with allowing it, but I don't think inhabation is a legal power for PC Free Spirits to have.

That is correct.

[Ravor]

Neraph then I suggest you reread the section about what happens when a spirit inhabits a vessal, I practically like the part where it explictly says that the vessal's "original spirit", aka soul is consumed and permentily lost with the only exception being DM Fiat. I also like the part where it explictly mentions that the Spirit gains total and complete control over the vessal. Face it, your idea simply doesn't work unless you have a lenient DM who decides to let it work via fiat.

[Neraph]

Neraph then I suggest you reread the section about what happens when a spirit inhabits a vessal, I practically like the part where it explictly says that the vessal's "original spirit", aka soul is consumed and permentily lost with the only exception being DM Fiat. I also like the part where it explictly mentions that the Spirit gains total and complete control over the vessal. Face it, your idea simply doesn't work unless you have a lenient DM who decides to let it work via fiat.

That has actually been my arguement from the start. I see no reason a GM would not allow it, exempting the fact that the GM in question happens to be you.

1) The spirit was created by you, with the personality that you decide upon.
2) The spirit subsumes some (or all) of your memories, and has whatever skills you decide it to have (talking about the process of creation, not the process of Inhabitation).
3) Your character's soul/spirit/mind/what-have-you is not neccessarily destroyed in the process, as long as it tells a good story.

I look to tell a good story, and have fun in the process. What is your aim?

EDIT: And, by the way, that is simply one of the possbile applications of this thread. Another one is using Inhabitation spirits in items to get neat effects, such as a flaming, dual natured sword that even mundanes can use, or a staff that increases the staff's creator's ability to cast magic, as well as grants the mage some nifty abilities.

[Zormal]

I think people would give your idea more credit if you clearly labeled it as 'needing the support of the GM' or 'requiring houserules' - however you want to formulate it. I think I speak for all of us when I say we're not against your ideas (which are truly creative), and we're definitely not trying to stop you from having fun. It's just that we're used to working strictly with RAW, and this thread is about something different. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Give us a bit more of a heads-up to get to the right mindset. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Most GMs have to worry about rules allowing too much. You don't have such a problem, which says only good things about your games.

[darthmord]

Neraph then I suggest you reread the section about what happens when a spirit inhabits a vessal, I practically like the part where it explictly says that the vessal's "original spirit", aka soul is consumed and permentily lost with the only exception being DM Fiat. I also like the part where it explictly mentions that the Spirit gains total and complete control over the vessal. Face it, your idea simply doesn't work unless you have a lenient DM who decides to let it work via fiat.

Keep in mind that with the Flesh Form / Good merge, the spirit ends up with all the host's memories, skills, abilities, and so forth.

You (as a person) are the sum of your experiences. A blank slate Spirit Inhabiting your body and getting such a result on the Inhabitation roll would *be* you. It's perfectly acceptable to view the action as replacing the power source of your soul. Instead of it being a Human Soul, it's a Spirit Soul. But it's still *your* soul.

Hence the part that keeps being brought up as GM fiat.

[Ravor]

Neraph except I disagree that you are telling a good story, instead I see you dragging a good story kicking and screaming past the end credits in a thinly veiled excuse for twinkery. However if you want some actual reasons I suppose I can be bothered to type a few that comes to mind, the first being game balance, you yourself have even talked about how this would throw Free Spirits under the bus. Then there is the little fact that even IF we DM Fiat the Mage's soul surviving being consumed by the spirit somehow at best all you've managed to do is trap yourself in a body that is under complete and utter control of a spirit. Have fun using services to tell your body what to do for all enternity.

darthmord you are familiar with Insect Spirits no? Their example shows us that even a "Good Merge" is not the original person, but merely the Spirit that has access to all of the host's memories.

*EDIT*

Needless to say, I don't believe in the "blank slate" nonsense, even Ally Spirits are born with Free Will and personalities, and aren't a "blank slate"

[darthmord]

darthmord you are familiar with Insect Spirits no? Their example shows us that even a "Good Merge" is not the original person, but merely the Spirit that has access to all of the host's memories.

*EDIT*

Needless to say, I don't believe in the "blank slate" nonsense, even Ally Spirits are born with Free Will and personalities, and aren't a "blank slate"

Yes, I am quite familiar with Insect Spirits. I have been playing since SR1 first came out. I know all about the Universal Brotherhood and Bug City.

You also are missing a crucial point... Ally Spirits are as *you* the mage design them. So if you design a spirit that is a blank slate, then it's a blank slate Free Will or not. Besides, Free Will just means it can do what it wants. It speaks not at all toward the personality of said spirit.

Don't think for a moment I'm in this thread for the twinkery. I'm not. I'm here because of the 'twinkery' just may very well lead to a better story. A lot of outlandish ideas aren't so bad once tried out in gameplay.

Lastly, you are hung up on the vessel's soul being destroyed except by GM (there are no DMs in this game) Fiat. Apparently you didn't read what I previously posted. The (human) soul gets blitzed yes, but it's replaced with a spirit soul. If we are the sum of our experiences, then the spirit soul is still driven by that which is us.... our knowledge, skills, and experiences. So in effect, you swapped out one engine for another. It's still the same car body.

I follow a rule I once read from a D&D sourcebook (also found that in a WW book too). Tell a great story. If the rules get in the way of the story, change them. The story and the fun are paramount and are far more important than the rules. So I choose story over rules. If that doesn't work for you, that's fine too. Your table and my table aren't the same table.

There are more ways than just your way or the highway.

[Zormal]

This might very well tell a good story. Please post it if you ever get around to running it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just one more curve-ball: Knowledge, skills and abilities are transferred, but there is more to being human. Emotions, values, habits, subconscious desires and needs do not seem to transfer (although this is arguable). I'm not sure about Inhabitation, but at least with Possession you lose the Mental Attributes of the host, and use the Spirit's. This might suggest that some things are lost when the host is consumed in the merge.

I think Neraph suggested that you can imprint the 'remaining' qualities on the Spirit when you change it through the Ally Spirit Formula. I'm not sure how fine-tuned control you have over changing the personality of the Bound Spirit, but I think you could get close enough for it to at least *appear* to be you (Am I me or am I something else? Now *that's* a story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

-- Slightly Off-topic rambling ahead --

I remember reading an interesting sci-fi story about an abandoned alien base on the far side of the moon that was filled with traps. Humans made a clone of an adventurer and imprinted it with all of the original's memories. Then they stuck one of them into a sensory-deprivation tank. The other one went into the death-traps, and by some feat of science both of the men experienced what the (soon to be dead) adventurer experienced.

The guy on the moon died, but the guy in the tank saw the trap and now knew how to avoid it. So they repeated the process. The next guy died in a second trap. They continued the process over and over, all the while the main character was wondering if he was the guy about to die, or the guy in the tank experiencing what the other guy was doing on the moon; if he would die now, or wake up from the tank soonafter.

The last clone found his way through the traps and found something inside the castle. There was now two of him. The two clones met, and if I remember correctly they found out that their personalities were different. I wonder if the personalities of the clones in between were also different.

The story really made you think what is a personality, and how it is connected to memories. Writing this, I even have a faint memory of one of the clones remembering a fiery love towards a woman, meeting her and finding that he didn't feel anything. It was just an imprinted memory.
...or was that another story?

Man I wish I remembered the title of that book.

[Neraph]

This might very well tell a good story. Please post it if you ever get around to running it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just one more curve-ball: Knowledge, skills and abilities are transferred, but there is more to being human. Emotions, values, habits, subconscious desires and needs do not seem to transfer (although this is arguable). I'm not sure about Inhabitation, but at least with Possession you lose the Mental Attributes of the host, and use the Spirit's. This might suggest that some things are lost when the host is consumed in the merge.

I think Neraph suggested that you can imprint the 'remaining' qualities on the Spirit when you change it through the Ally Spirit Formula. I'm not sure how fine-tuned control you have over changing the personality of the Bound Spirit, but I think you could get close enough for it to at least *appear* to be you (Am I me or am I something else? Now *that's* a story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

-- Slightly Off-topic rambling ahead --

I remember reading an interesting sci-fi story about an abandoned alien base on the far side of the moon that was filled with traps. Humans made a clone of an adventurer and imprinted it with all of the original's memories. Then they stuck one of them into a sensory-deprivation tank. The other one went into the death-traps, and by some feat of science both of the men experienced what the (soon to be dead) adventurer experienced.

The guy on the moon died, but the guy in the tank saw the trap and now knew how to avoid it. So they repeated the process. The next guy died in a second trap. They continued the process over and over, all the while the main character was wondering if he was the guy about to die, or the guy in the tank experiencing what the other guy was doing on the moon; if he would die now, or wake up from the tank soonafter.

The last clone found his way through the traps and found something inside the castle. There was now two of him. The two clones met, and if I remember correctly they found out that their personalities were different. I wonder if the personalities of the clones in between were also different.

The story really made you think what is a personality, and how it is connected to memories. Writing this, I even have a faint memory of one of the clones remembering a fiery love towards a woman, meeting her and finding that he didn't feel anything. It was just an imprinted memory.
...or was that another story?

Man I wish I remembered the title of that book.

Well, even in the example of Ally Spirit, it talks about a "Jungian reflection of his idealized self." I would imagine that that ally spirit would have nearly an identical outlook and personality (albeit much more extreme) as that of the summoner.

Also, in the game I'm playing in, I just finished the ritual and completed the merge with a Force 8 Ally Spirit as a Black Mage. My character had Vendetta linked to his Enemy (Knights of Saint Sylvester), and as the ritual came to a close, the base where I was enacting the ritual came under attack. If they interrupted the ritual, my character would have auto-died (as shown in the Ally Spirit rules), however, because of the valliant efforts of the only other two people at the base (of the 5-man team), they were able to hold off the Knights until the ritual finished.

Now I get to experiment with my brand-new godling (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Our game is nearing its finish, and the next campaign will actually be a group with the simple intent of destroying the Infected characters we just made.

[Ravor]

darthmord well firstly in an universe where a person's soul, aka Essence can be measured and "eaten" by various critters I don't agree that it is merely the sum of your memories, ect that makes you who you are, if Ravor's soul gets eaten and replaced by his Ally Spirit's then the resulting character is no longer Ravor, it is the Spirit that happens to have some or all of Ravor's memories, maybe it's close enough to fool Ravor's friends and family, but it still isn't Ravor. So yes I read your post, I just rejected the premise, once the engine gets changed out it is no longer the same car because in this case the "engine" is what defines the car's base nature, and the fact that Ravor has some ability to shape and mold the resulting spirit doesn't change that.

Also if you would go back and read Neraph's original post you will note that he makes the claim that it is a "house rule" to disallow the character when in fact the reverse is true, the character is only allowable by fiat, and a DM can just as easily fiat characters with 1000 BPs or allow people to play Great Dragons.

[Neraph]

EDIT: Post edited for me being tired and forgetting things.

[Ravor]

Neraph, BEFORE you accuse me of lying perhaps you could be bothered to actually read YOUR OWN FRAGGING POST where you said the following:

What exactly would happen if an initiated mage with the Ally Conjuration metamagic summoned an inhabitation spirit into himself? How exactly would the rules cover this? More specifically, if he were to arrange the inhabitation to cause a Hybrid Form inhabitation merge. Would the mage have just found a (quasi) cheaper version of playing a more powerful free spirit (and follow the free spirit rules in Street Magic), or would most GMs (many on here, I would guess) just houserule the PC gains NPC status?

Boldfacing added

[Draco18s]

darthmord well firstly in an universe where a person's soul, aka Essence can be measured and "eaten" by various critters I don't agree that it is merely the sum of your memories, ect that makes you who you are

However, just because you died from essence loss doesn't mean you're not you.

Case and point: becoming a vampire. IIRC a person who dies from essence loss via essence drain "resurrects" as an infected. Infected don't automatically have 0 essence, yet do have Magic 1 (implying at least Essence 1, if not a full 6).

There's also a weak case for becoming a cyberzombie, as I'll freely admit that a cyberzombie you isn't fully you (there's a piece of equipment that has to constantly remind you that you are you). However, it is a case where a person has 0 (or less) essence and their soul (i.e. "them") is still around. So Essence doesn't necessarily mean soul. Essence is the connectiveness between the soul and the flesh.

[Ravor]

Hmm, vamps are an interesting point, although the person doesn't actually die when she hits ( Essence 0 ) the first time around, personally I think I'd equate them as a much more refined version of a cyberzombie, minus the cyber of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Still, I don't think your argument that Essence is "merely" the connection the binds your soul to your body actually makes much of a difference in my posistion given that when it hits zero the soul is no longer present, whether it moves onto the metaplanes as a spirit or is destoryed as it disolves into a cloud of free mana and is absorbed into Gia's Manasphere is a matter to debate. In the Sixth World, my money is on the second.

[Triggerz]

I don't think I'll add a whole lot to the debate, but the way I see it, it all boils down to whether the GM allows the player to keep playing the character or not. It is fairly obvious that, after the merge, the character is not quite the same. BUT... If the merged character has all the skills and memories of the previous PC and the most likeable parts of his personality, then it isn't a completely alien entity either. It all boils down to the kind of game style the group wants to have. I'm not even saying that it is allowed within RAW as a PC. I'm just saying that the procedure, by and of itself, works. Therefore, if a character is selfless enough that he doesn't mind losing himself into something bigger, it can be an interesting way of moving your agenda forward a bit...

e.g.

"Now daddy has created you for a very special purpose. On my own, I am not strong enough to defeat my enemies. And on your own, you aren't either. But TOGETHER, we could achieve great things for The Cause." Like... It's a suicide for a greater cause. The character is not the same he was, but there is still a character (that could be played, if allowed). And if the group is cool with the player playing that new merged entity, then I don't see why we shouldn't allow it. I think it could be a good story.

The psychology of the character would be pretty interesting, what with "daddy" having sacrificed himself to fight an enemy that might still be too powerful for the merged entity. Oh! Failure! Sweet and sour failure... I guess, for me, an exercise in power-gaming doesn't have to be a bad thing... Like... My character wants power... to do stuff... to move the universe in a direction that he finds aesthetically pleasing. And yes, he would die for it, when the time comes. His struggle for power doesn't have to be munchkinism. It all depends on whether the story it tells is good or not. If it tells a good story, then why not?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAnyways, those are my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

[Ravor]

Sure, I'm not saying that it doesn't make an awesome conclusion to a cyberpunk story where the mage has to give up his own life for a chance of his cause suceeding, but its the end of a character's story and not merely a chapter change.

[Neraph]

Sure, I'm not saying that it doesn't make an awesome conclusion to a cyberpunk story where the mage has to give up his own life for a chance of his cause suceeding, but its the end of a character's story and not merely a chapter change.

What about writing the epilogue?

[Ravor]

As an NPC sure.

[Triggerz]

I don't quite get the opposition to the idea. I mean, sure, it's a new character, in a way, yet sort of still the same too. There can be power balance issues, but that depends on the group's gaming style and other characters, no? AAAAAAAAAnyway, I guess we don't really need to reach an agreement on this unless we play together and one of us wants to do precisely that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Game on, guys!

[Neraph]

The main reason I understand Ravor doesn't like it is twofold: 1) Inhabitation says it kills your character (ignore the fact it says it doesn't if you want to tell a good story), and 2) It's powerful, and players cannot have that.

[Ravor]

Nice try, Neraph, now kindly back up your outragous lies with facts.


Triggerz, even if you choose to simply ignore the side of the issue on what makes you "you" then we still run afoul of the fact that if a DM allows this trick to result in a playable character we've basically discovered the "must have" method for anyone who wants to play a Free Spirit and woe to the poor suckers that actually wanted to roleplay a Spirit and used the chargen rules allowing for such charcters.

[Neraph]

Additional Information

In Running Wild, page 174, they have added very interesting rules for calling free/wild spirits and gaining favors from them, similar to summoning and binding (in that you can cause a spirit to appear and gain a number of favors from said spirit), under the Calling and Offering section.

The following is a condensed section of pertinent rules:

[ Spoiler ]

Occult Knowledge: Arcana + Logic (20, 1 day) Extended Test.

Crafting Paraphernelia: Enchanting + Magic (Force of Target Spirit, 1 day) Extended Test.

The Offering: Arcana + Logic (1) Test. This destroys the paraphernelia, causes no drain, and confers no services.

Bargaining: Negotiation + Charisma opposed by the spirit's Force + Edge.

The following involve the Spirit in question.

Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Perception, Unarmed Combat

Spirit Powers: Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Energy Drain (Karma), Inhabitation.

Qualities: Magician.

Inhabitation: Must have a prepared vessel. Enchanting + Magic (Object Resistance x3, 1 day) Extended Test and 2 refined or 1 radical reagent per 10 kilos of object (reagents are consumed during the process).

Advancement:
- It may raise its attributes, which start at a rating equal to the Force of the spirit.
- It may raise or gain new skills.
- It may initiate as a magician, although this process grants one additional free spirit power per grade instead of a metamagic technique. They are as follows:
* The spirit type's normal power list (in this case - none).
* One of the following powers: Astral Gateway, Aura Masking, Divining, Essence Drain, Materialization, Possession, or Realistic Form.
* Any metamagic technique. Free spirits use Edge in place of initiation grade.
* A unique free spirit power listed under Free Spirit Powers, p. 109 Street Magic.
- It may raise its Force, raising all attributes and powers based on Force, at the cost of new Force rating x 10.

Applicable Result/Guide

After completing an Occult Knowledge Test, you gain the information to Call a special type of spirit, with the powers listed above. You either craft yourself or have a contact craft for you the paraphernalia required to Call the spirit at Force 1 (two radical animal blood reagents, availability 8, 400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) total) and preparing a chosen weapon as a Prepared Vessel (one radical animal blood reagent, availability 8, 200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ). After successfully Calling the spirit, you bargain with it for the express reason of Inhabiting the weapon, using its powers (or powers it will gain) to keep you alive, and you will feed it with the life energy of your enemies; ie: "I know that spirits such as yourself are obsessed with power. I have a great amount of martial prowess. In return for you using your abilities to keep me alive, I will guarantee that you will feast on the souls of my enemies, adding their power to your own."

With their 2 dicepool against your Charisma + Negotiation (+ all those extra bonuses we all know and love), you will win.

The spirit (an apparent variant of a blood spirit) at Force 1 cannot gain a True Form Inhabitation Merge, as he cannot exceed the Object Resistance of the weapon you have chosen. This will result in either a Hybrid Form Inhabitation Merge (which is most desirable), or likely a Flesh Form Inhabitation Merge, causing the weapon to become Dual-Natured (now dangerous against those pesky astral forms) and much harder (Immunity [Normal Weapons]), among other things. Please note that this must take place inside a magical lodge with a Force equal or higher than that of the spirit, in this case, 1. Also, the only forseeable problem is that of the spirit in question Critically glitching on the Inhabitation check; this can be fixed with the spirit initially having the Guard power active on itself.

I present to you: Bloodmourne.

Alternatively (and more expensively), you can follow this same preceedure to similarly "enchant" barbed arrows (or bolts). As the arrow is stuck in the enemy, the spirit within begins to deal additional "DoT" (Damamge over Time) damage to him, gaining 1 point of karma per point of physical damage dealt (as per Energy Drain [Karma]). If the enemy wants to stop this, he must remove the barbed arrow.

I present to you: the Blooddrinker Arrows (I brainstormed these with Ragewind, and he insists they should be named Souldrinker Arrows, but as I'm posting this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) ).

A 1-Up for Blooddrinker Arrows would be using Injection Arrows as the base arrow, and remember to include a dose of Slab. As they lie there for at least an hour due to the Slab drug, your Bolt-Buddy finishes killing them to suck the karma out of their blood.

In all cases, the Bloodmourne™ system of Dual-Natured weapons manufacturing creates an extremely flexible system of creating a smart-weapon capable of aiding its wielder immensely (and possibly similarly to using mooks for hacking), and it only gets better over time.

[darthmord]

Neraph, just wait until said spirit decides that *YOU* are it's next meal... because its power grew more than yours.

[Neraph]

Neraph, just wait until said spirit decides that *YOU* are it's next meal... because its power grew more than yours.

That's simply an attempt to undermine this proceedure. Albeit an actual danger, that's what Negotiation is for, and, failing that, Mind Control (for the mages).

[darthmord]

Not aiming to undermine you. It's a great idea IMO. I was just bringing up a major potential drawback to the idea.

Just be careful that you aren't creating your own Frankenstein monster. Oh wait, they already did that with Cybermancy.

[Traul]

A Force 1 spirit is disrupted as soon as it enters a Background count, isn't he? You might need to beef it up a bit.

[Neraph]

A Force 1 spirit is disrupted as soon as it enters a Background count, isn't he? You might need to beef it up a bit.

You definately could. In fact, with the above method, you'd be able to Call as many spirits of this type as you want, for like 400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per point of Force. The thing is, a Force 1 would definately lose the opposed Negotiation Test, and he'd end up being more willing to not eat you too, as darthmord pointed out.

Also, the "eat you" part only applies with a range of Touch. The first time it deals 1 point of P damage to you, you drop it and threaten to chain it to a rock and throw it in the harbor if it does it again. That should be the end of that.

EDIT: It gains karma at the rate of 1 karma per point of Physical damage it deals to someone, with a certain Test. The answer is either capturing people on runs you do (not neccessarily the best answer) or going to Z-zones or feral cities, and optimally tieing someone down and laying the blade on them so the blade can get the most "mileage" out of your "donor." One would be interested to figure out how much damage, say, an average-statted Troll could heal each day and capturing one (or buying a full-body clone for like 25,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) and having a personal "Karma Battery™" for your Bloodmourne.

[darthmord]

If' it's 1 Karma / point of damage, tie the weapon to a regenerating creature such that the weapon is damaging the creature. Creature regens and takes damage again. Very quickly, the weapon becomes more powerful than you can imagine.

[Ol' Scratch]

How exactly are you going to be offering up the Karma of your victims? Energy Drain requires an Extended Test with an interval of 1 minute, and the enemies are going to know it's happening. Considering most fights don't last nearly that long (20 Combat Turns), and when it ends they're either dead or running away, I just don't see how you could live up to that bargain.

It's even worse if you stick with the Force 1 spirit as they won't be able to make the Extended Test (Willpower + Magic = 2 dice) without multiple glitches and repeated failures. And with the threshold being (10-Essence), you're going to have to stand around for an awful long time trying to fulfill it. Nevermind the evil connotations of offering up someone else's Karma, let alone actually doing it the only way you could (by capturing and tortuing people).

[Neraph]

How exactly are you going to be offering up the Karma of your victims? Energy Drain requires an Extended Test with an interval of 1 minute, and the enemies are going to know it's happening. Considering most fights don't last nearly that long (20 Combat Turns), and when it ends they're either dead or running away, I just don't see how you could live up to that bargain.

It's even worse if you stick with the Force 1 spirit as they won't be able to make the Extended Test (Willpower + Magic = 2 dice) without multiple glitches and repeated failures. And with the threshold being (10-Essence), you're going to have to stand around for an awful long time trying to fulfill it. Nevermind the evil connotations of offering up someone else's Karma, let alone actually doing it the only way you could (by capturing and tortuing people).

Pretty easily. Slab them, tie them up, knock them unconscious; restrain them in any way. Since they very well might be tagged and have biomonitors, hunting amongst the SINless would be a far better approach, unless you want to locate tags and destroy them before hand.

Besides, if you take a vanilla metahuman (unaugmented), it's only a Magic + Willpower [2] (10 - Essence [4], 1 Minute) Test, which can be done in (optimally) only 2 minutes - 1 if the spirit spends his one point of Edge. Granted, that only gets him the 1P damage/1 karma drain, but it's entirely feasible to do.

Grab a vanilla human, Slab him (he's down for 7 hours), restrain him, and put the blade on him, and before the Slab wears off the human is dead and the spirit is 13 karma stronger. Now he's a F2 spirit, and able to continue the process much faster, being now able to buy 1 success each test.

[Ol' Scratch]

So you need to play a serial killer to do it. Less "enemies" and more "innocent victims." Okay, I was just checking to make sure I wasn't missing something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

So you need to play a serial killer to do it. Less "enemies" and more "innocent victims." Okay, I was just checking to make sure I wasn't missing something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh no, you could totally do it using your enemies - it would just require you to thoroughly clean your enemies before feeding them to your Bloodmourne.

Allthough it is faster and easier with bums on the street...

[darthmord]

So you need to play a serial killer to do it. Less "enemies" and more "innocent victims." Okay, I was just checking to make sure I wasn't missing something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I personally have no qualms with a character playing the part of a serial killer.

Every action has a consequence; for good or for ill, there is always a consequence.

Though I might have to take this idea and run with it in a SR4 game I'm running.

[Neraph]

NOTE: The blade can also betray it's master. This would be an interesting turn of events where the blade (really it can be any weapon, but I always envision a sword) starts using its powers against its maker (an NPC) to try and fall into the hands (no pun intended) of the PCs.

[Whipstitch]

I think I'd go with an ice pick. Nicely anachronistic in 2070 but less ritualized than an actual sword.

[Neraph]

I've been starting to favor the idea of a Cyberspur. Especially for the non-Awakened.

EDIT: Although the feeding thing would become problematic, so maybe simply forearm snap-blades.

[Mordinvan]

let alone actually doing it the only way you could (by capturing and tortuing people).

If you could point out the alignment system in this game for me, as I suspect I missed it.

[Da9iel]

Non sequitur much Mordivan? Since when does a games system have to have an alignment system for the word evil to mean anything?

[Mordinvan]

Non sequitur much Mordivan? Since when does a games system have to have an alignment system for the word evil to mean anything?

To imply that "evil" is in and of it self going to generate some kind of consequence.....

Sorry, but things only have consequences if you get caught.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

From a game standpoint, I'd have to agree with Mordinvan. In many systems, there is an inherent alignment system that encourages a type of playstyle, and suggests consequences if such is not followed. This just isn't the case in ShadowRun. Yes, if you start abducting people, and sucking the life from them.....and get caught at it, there will be consequences. But if you're smart about it, and don't get caught, there's really no basis for it, unless your GM just wants to Zod you.

[Neraph]

And, if using the above methods, even if you get caught the opposition may not be able to do very much to you anyways.

[pbangarth]

So... I have a Free Spirit PC in play in my home game. Force 6, Edge 7, 3s and a 4 for Stats, Magic and Essence 6. 7 points of spirit powers (Aura Masking, Realistic Form, Mutable Form, Concealment, Guard, Accident) plus the freebies. The campaign involves the three PCs being closely associated with a gang in L.A. (membership in the 20s), not magical except for a few of the associates to the gang. The gang is a Group Contact for my FSPC at 5/5. We just started up, and four of the 6 Friends are gang members, one a street shaman who is sort of mother-protector to the neighbourhood, and one of the other two PCs. This last Friendship was just enacted, and I have to wait for the Karma to be able to progress and get the other PC as a Friend.

It is clear that my FSPC will have to start making Friends in a more rational way, as ork street gangers are not likely to live very long. Each death of a Friend will reduce her Force by 1. That's alright, I saw this going into the campaign.

While Nerpah's ideas regarding groups are interesting, they mostly involve a magical group. I see potential in some of the Spirit Pacts for a non-magical group. Power Pact would be certainly interesting to any group member, but would not likely give access to many spells for her to use (and therefore learn). If Karma is part of the exchange, then there is fertile ground here for her to progress quickly. If the GM allows it, of course. Similarly, the Drain pact with the one or two associated mages might be doable.

I invite suggestions as to how this FSPC might profit from pacts with a mostly non-magical gang.

[Neraph]

Either which way the wind blows with Friendship Pacts, I highly suggest trying to get ahold of Hidden Life. The reason I chose a magical group is that you're also in a good spot to try entering into Power Pacts and getting some spells on the cheap.

I don't think I mentioned it here but you can also do a Dream Pact and put the guy in a permanent coma.

[pbangarth]

Heh, well, I'm looking at things she can do with people who are friends, if not Friends.

[Neraph]

Either which way the wind blows with Friendship Pacts, I highly suggest trying to get ahold of Hidden Life. The reason I chose a magical group is that you're also in a good spot to try entering into Power Pacts and getting some spells on the cheap.

Oh, and it makes joining a Magical Group for Initiating that much easier.

[Modular Man]

To that "Bloodmourne" arrow...
Great idea! I really didn't think of that!

Still, the idea of having a spirit suck the very life out of opponents always reminds me of having the same spirit transfer his "Energy Drain (Karma)" power via "Endowment" to the mage. Both ways seem to me to resemble a toxic mage's path... That's not quite impossible in the game, but beware of anyone finding out.

Anyway, awesome idea!