SR4A and KarmaGen, What's the new starting number? Options

[ArkonC]

All right, here's what we've got:
Of the old 750 we can use 375(or more) for attributes and we usually do...
Costs went from x3 to x5
375/3x5=625
totaling 1000 as the new starting number...
Problem: if only half can be used on attributes, we actually gain points that cannot be spent on attributes...

Thoughts?

[Tycho]

with the new rules 750karma is closer to 400BP, so I do not see a reason to raise the karma on karmagen.

cya
Tycho

[ElFenrir]

Well, we'd probably use 1000 Karma, since we dig how the 750 Karmagen works now as it is. But Karmagen is easily adjustable for whatever game tastes you have.

Then again, we just still use the SR4 rules, so we use the 750. If we switched, though, 1,000 Karma would be more up the alley for our games.

[Aaron]

Has anyone calculated the amount of Karma it would take to create each of the sample characters in SR4A if you built them with the KarmaGen rules?

[darthmord]

Has anyone calculated the amount of Karma it would take to create each of the sample characters in SR4A if you built them with the KarmaGen rules?

I have not but I'll take a look at the costs. Might have something up later tonight or tomorrow. Depends on schedule tonight after work.

[cndblank]

It has been a couple of months.

Does anyone have any thing to add?

[Jhaiisiin]

Just that when I did karmagen vs bp gen comparisons awhile back, all but free spirits came close. 750 karma is now *roughly* equivalent to 400bp, with some swing either way.

[Ancient History]

We should (eventually) have the mods up in the new errata, but they aren't terribly extensive. I'd suggest using 750 Karma for SR4A characters, keeping in mind that attributes are (New Rating x 5) Karma.

[Shinobi Killfist]

We remade everyone one of our characters that were built under 400BP as Karmagen, every one had at least 50 karma left, most had 100+ left and this is with the x5 for attribute cost. The troll cost a bit more than 750, but it was a fairly absurd troll build. Heck I tried a few builds even ones that should be bad for a karmagen like soft capping as many stats as I could with an assortment of 2's in the rest of the stats, high or no skills none of this medium range diverse crap and karmagen still came out cheaper.

If you want characters around 400BP in quality 700BP would probably cover it for anyone but the Troll.

[Octopiii]

My character made under KarmaGen (admittedly with a slightly advantageous Houserule regarding when racial attribute bonuses are applied) ended up nearly at 500bp using SR4A rules. A change is not needed; KarmaGen was overpowered previously.

Edit: Ok, it was 450 bp. Subtract the 25 I saved from the houserule, that gives me 425.

[Zurai]

Except that they promised that Karmagen would be updated to reflect the new karma costs.

[Ancient History]

It will. It should be in the next errata. I distinctly remember doing it.

[BlueMax]

It will. It should be in the next errata. I distinctly remember doing it.

The czech is in the male?

BlueMax
/thank you very much
// I will be here all weak
/// at least my jokes are

[crizh]

It will. It should be in the next errata. I distinctly remember doing it.

So is that an official karma for karmagen will not increase in the upcoming errata?

I seem to recall you saying that karmagen was balanced when it was first introduced, has that position changed?

One of the main reasons I shut up about the changes parachuted into SR4A was the indication that karmagen would be appropriately adjusted for the increased cost of stats. If this is not to be the case I think I will be able to classify myself as pretty damned peeved.

[Ancient History]

There's some behind-the-scenes details I can't go into on how KarmaGen was tabulated, but let's leave it to say there are figures that show 750 Karma should be suitable for SR4A characters (and is why I suggested 600 Karma for SR4 characters).

The errata will also address some other issues that were brought up by player feedback which should further balance Karmagen, or at least hopefully quiet the bitching to a dull roar.

[Dragnar]

[...] or at least hopefully quiet the bitching to a dull roar.

Quiet the bitching? On dumpshock? Never (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'd agree though, that the 750 Karma suggested in Runner's Companion have been way to high under the old rules and should fit a lot better now.
I still don't agree with the design mandate of free races, but that's what houserules are for.

[Ancient History]

I still don't agree with the design mandate of free races, but that's what houserules are for.

Well, that's the other major change.

[Dragnar]

Wait, what?
Wow. That's really cool. Shiny, even.
Now I'm intrigued. Care to elaborate, or is that still under wraps?

[Ancient History]

Well, things still have to be approved, but the major issues to address were a) making the needed edits so KarmaGen is compatible and balanced with SR4A's adjusted Karma costs, and b) addressing any balance problems inherent in the ruleset. The biggest part of b) was "free" races, so that will be address - i.e. there will now be a cost.

[/stepping off soap box] Free races was a design decision I went with for a couple reasons, but some very vocal people have been pissing blood and fire about it and they have a couple actual persuasive arguments regarding some character builds - definitely a case of roll-playing vs. roleplaying, but then KarmaGen is all mechanics anyway.

[The Jake]

Well, things still have to be approved, but the major issues to address were a) making the needed edits so KarmaGen is compatible and balanced with SR4A's adjusted Karma costs, and b) addressing any balance problems inherent in the ruleset. The biggest part of b) was "free" races, so that will be address - i.e. there will now be a cost.

[/stepping off soap box] Free races was a design decision I went with for a couple reasons, but some very vocal people have been pissing blood and fire about it and they have a couple actual persuasive arguments regarding some character builds - definitely a case of roll-playing vs. roleplaying, but then KarmaGen is all mechanics anyway.

It wouldn't be so bad if there was a real reason to play a human under KarmaGen. Getting one measly point of extra Edge doesn't quite cut the mustard....

- J.

[BlueMax]

Well, things still have to be approved, but the major issues to address were a) making the needed edits so KarmaGen is compatible and balanced with SR4A's adjusted Karma costs, and b) addressing any balance problems inherent in the ruleset. The biggest part of b) was "free" races, so that will be address - i.e. there will now be a cost.

[/stepping off soap box] Free races was a design decision I went with for a couple reasons, but some very vocal people have been pissing blood and fire about it and they have a couple actual persuasive arguments regarding some character builds - definitely a case of roll-playing vs. roleplaying, but then KarmaGen is all mechanics anyway.

Not a master of Karma gen at all but the races are free. The cost is hidden. The only character who even came close to 750, at 746, was our troll. The 10 Body and the 8 Strength were fragging costly.

We don't use Karmagen, I don't claim to be an expert, this exercise was only done as an experiment.

BlueMax

[cndblank]

I agree that 750 was a little high for SR4 but going from 3 to 5 times for the attributes is fairly expensive.

[Falconer]

Bluemax:
That's only because the troll ran up his str & bod to max... and quite frankly that should cost.

There's a ton of argumentation on this in other threads and you can search it out.

Right now, I just say sit back and wait for them to actually playtest the errata and get it out. Then it's game for discussion.


More or less only to summarize (and not divert and reargue):
Races get freebie starting ranks for no cost (an elf w/ cha3, still has 25karma MORE than a human w/ cha3... if they both go to 5 the human is sitll 25karma behind)
Races get 'enhanced attribute' or 'metagenic improvement' MULTIPLE times again for no cost (meaning higher attrib caps a human can't even attempt to reach). A human can't get charisma to 8 easily or even 7 w/o paying through the nose.
Races pay nothing for penalized stats (meaning it's rediculously easy to play classes out of the norm... and in fact encouraged by the cost structure).
Dump stats subsidized the 'hidden cost' of strong stats. (if it only cost me 6 to raise cha on a troll from 1->2, then it already subsidized the cost of raising bod or str... and there's a lot more 'low' or 'dump' stats than there are stats w/ penalized cost).
And that's not touching that things like natural vision enhancements, armor, reach, etc. have a real value as well (especially when they directly translate into dice not lost or even gained in common situations as visibility mods are used a lot).

[BlueMax]

Bluemax:
That's only because the troll ran up his str & bod to max... and quite frankly that should cost.

I agree maxing should cost in 4th ed, it does in BP. However, it shouldnt cost a Troll anymore to be one undermax in karmagen if it doesn't in BP.

If it does, its a penalty for being a troll. Or another P word, price.

Sorry for making a poor argument. Technically his body is not maxxed as he is a meta variant.

BlueMax

[Muspellsheimr]

I agree maxing should cost in 4th ed, it does in BP. However, it shouldnt cost a Troll anymore to be one undermax in karmagen if it doesn't in BP.

If it does, its a penalty for being a troll. Or another P word, price.

Sorry for making a poor argument. Technically his body is not maxxed as he is a meta variant.

BlueMax

In the (probably futile) hopes of keeping this thread 'clean', I will not be saying anymore on the subject beyond what follows (if you want more detail, use the Search).


The lack of cost to play a non-Human race can be directly translated as free additional Karma, beyond the standard allotment, a character will receive for playing such a race - this has been mathematically proven by myself & others.

The 'hidden cost' of playing a non-Human race commonly cited in arguments against us takes into account attribute bonuses only, disregarding any other benefits for the metatype, such as a Troll's increased armor & reach. Even then, I have frequently shown that these 'hidden costs' are illusionary, & thus irrelevant anyways.

The only reason to play a Human in the current Karma Generation system is for role-play / character concept. Doing so punishes the character. This is at best bad design; a player should never be punished because of what they want to play - if they intentionally gimp their character, that is fine - it should not ever be included as a default for a concept by the rules.