Can't Be a Tager Pilot, split from LE Street Date thread in SR forum Options

[toturi]

*googles* Oh. Oh my. Please tell me this is real, and not merely an April Fools' joke to which CGL are uncommonly committed. Cthulhu mythos + mecha? I think... wait... no... yes... yes! I AM SEXUALLY AROUSED BY THIS!

Be warned, Tanegar. You don't really get to do war upon servants of the Old Ones and fly around in Gundam Mobile suits, one of the developers (the guy credited for art) has repeated stated that you do not get to play Tager pilots. The game system is meant to cater to seperate campaign types.

[Cardul]

Be warned, Tanegar. You don't really get to do war upon servants of the Old Ones and fly around in Gundam Mobile suits, one of the developers (the guy credited for art) has repeated stated that you do not get to play Tager pilots. Don't be fooled by the marketing like I was.

And you will get banned from the forums for disagreeing with that particular developer when he says that there is no way for Tagers to even have the skills, or suggest piloting civilian mecha. You also cannot play psychic mecha pilots, since, apparently, psychic characters are too valuable and mentally unstable to put in combat(even though the front line Engel pilots are JUST as crazy), and you cannot play the Nazzadi/Human half-breeds as pilots, because you have to be 24 years old minimum...

Yeah...the guy is a little crazy...

Oh, he is also supposedly the Art Director for Shadowrun...so he is why we have no recognizable female Trolls beyond the Street Shaman in SR4A(I am still not sure about the one in the original SR4...)

[toturi]

And you will get banned from the forums for disagreeing with that particular developer when he says that there is no way for Tagers to even have the skills, or suggest piloting civilian mecha. You also cannot play psychic mecha pilots, since, apparently, psychic characters are too valuable and mentally unstable to put in combat(even though the front line Engel pilots are JUST as crazy), and you cannot play the Nazzadi/Human half-breeds as pilots, because you have to be 24 years old minimum...

Yeah...the guy is a little crazy...

Oh, he is also supposedly the Art Director for Shadowrun...so he is why we have no recognizable female Trolls beyond the Street Shaman in SR4A(I am still not sure about the one in the original SR4...)

If he shows his face on here forums, he can come kiss my Canon ass.

[Tanegar]

Be warned, Tanegar. You don't really get to do war upon servants of the Old Ones and fly around in Gundam Mobile suits, one of the developers (the guy credited for art) has repeated stated that you do not get to play Tager pilots. Don't be fooled by the marketing like I was.

Er... ok, I'll bite: why can't I make war on the Great Old Ones and their servants using a giant f*cking robot?! Isn't piloting giant f*cking robots pretty much the entire point of the mecha genre?

[toturi]

Er... ok, I'll bite: why can't I make war on the Great Old Ones and their servants using a giant f*cking robot?! Isn't piloting giant f*cking robots pretty much the entire point of the mecha genre?

That is not precisely true. You can make war on the Great Old Ones and their servants using a giant robot, but you can't do a Power Rangers - kick their foot soldiers ass mano a mano (Guyver to monster) and stomp on the big guys with your giant robot. You can only be one or the other - as stated by in a developer's forum posts, albeit not found within the rulebook, although we are told that it will change such that it will be explicitly stated that you cannot do it in the books.

[eidolon]

Yeah, looks like they never learned that fine line between "interacting with your fans on forums is cool" and "you need to know when to ignore the living fuck our of people on your forums."

[Matsci]

I'm pretty sure that it's just you can't have a Tager (read:Guver), and pilot an engle (Read:Eva) at the same time. You could theoretically use one of the smaller, less powerful, regular mechs. It's in one of the books, at least I think it is, as I remeber reading it, and when one of my players brought it up, another shot it down it down.

It could be the non-euclidean nature of the books, were no rule is where you rember reading it, may have something to due with it.

[toturi]

I'm pretty sure that it's just you can't have a Tager (read:Guver), and pilot an engle (Read:Eva) at the same time. You could theoretically use one of the smaller, less powerful, regular mechs. It's in one of the books, at least I think it is, as I remeber reading it, and when one of my players brought it up, another shot it down it down.

It could be the non-euclidean nature of the books, were no rule is where you rember reading it, may have something to due with it.

No, Mr Mike V was quite adamant that a Tager should not be able to pilot a normal military mecha either, justifying it with his reasons why it should not be so. It did not help that some of the fans tend to go overboard in their posts in such threads.

[eidolon]

Pretty sure I saw over there that Mike had left SR and gone back to CthP full time.

Thing is, he's right about canon. If you can't do something by canon, fine, you can't do something by canon.

But since when have gamers cared about canon in the face of awesome? He's failed to grasp that nothing that a bunch of people on a forum do will change his precious canon. He (and Co.) write the books. What they put in the books is canon.

SURGE is SR canon, and tons of people hate it and don't use it in their games. Does that make it less canon? No. So would it make any sense for Rob then Peter then Randall to come on here and shout at us in big red letters about the fact that it is canon any time somebody says "yeah, I don't use SURGE in my games"? No, that would just make them look like Giant Asses™. Because no matter what we say on these boards, we can't change canon*.

Also, it shows that he doesn't quite get the forum community != your entire player base thing yet, too.


*Directly. As in stuff we say becomes dogma for all other board members and players to follow.

[Dhaise]

It's brutally hard for some creative types to 'let go'.


Back on topic: I can't wait for the LE to arrive.

[eidolon]

Back on topic: I can't wait for the LE to arrive.

You aren't kidding. I'm seriously Jonesing for my SR LE and for Eclipse Phase to come out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lick.gif)

[toturi]

Pretty sure I saw over there that Mike had left SR and gone back to CthP full time.

Thing is, he's right about canon. If you can't do something by canon, fine, you can't do something by canon.

But since when have gamers cared about canon in the face of awesome? He's failed to grasp that nothing that a bunch of people on a forum do will change his precious canon. He (and Co.) write the books. What they put in the books is canon.

SURGE is SR canon, and tons of people hate it and don't use it in their games. Does that make it less canon? No. So would it make any sense for Rob then Peter then Randall to come on here and shout at us in big red letters about the fact that it is canon any time somebody says "yeah, I don't use SURGE in my games"? No, that would just make them look like Giant Asses™. Because no matter what we say on these boards, we can't change canon*.

Also, it shows that he doesn't quite get the forum community != your entire player base thing yet, too.


*Directly. As in stuff we say becomes dogma for all other board members and players to follow.

I have been around the block for the old timers to know that for me, if it is in the book, the book is holy writ, take it to the bank. But the problem is that what he was saying wasn't in the book and when people found ways in the book around his canon, he jumped in and labelled them munchkins. I suppose it would have been something like making a Technomancer with Latent Awakening before errata came out, sure, after the errata, it is canon that you can't have a Latent Awakening Technomancer, but before that? And calling posters "munchkins"...

You don't use the label "munchkin" on any poster unless you are trolling, that's pretty much making it personal. You are an admin, eidolon, what are some of the things you are sure will spark a flamewar? I think calling someone a "munchkin" directly or otherwise rates pretty high on that list.

[Noirfatale]

well you should be proud of your munchkinism!

whats wrong with that.

if the hat fits they say...

Anyway I dont think its correct to bring your personal grudge on another game forum, from a compagny that distribute both game.

those guys are doing the impossible to give life to those games (both shadowrun and cthulhutech) and witout them we would be left with little exept D&D...

the guy put lots of time and effort and its only normal that when they tell you SEVERAL times to post in the homebrew and not to arge what is canon or not with them that they will loose their patience with you.

about the surge thing well its canon, if you dont want to use it thats your perogative.

but in Ctech its the exact reverse.

Imagine I come on dumpshock to ague that I want a Tecnomancer/physical adept or a technomancer mage?

anyway.

you want to argue thats fine, but play nice and leave personal insult out of your post.

[toturi]

well you should be proud of your munchkinism!

whats wrong with that.

if the hat fits they say...

Anyway I dont think its correct to bring your personal grudge on another game forum, from a compagny that distribute both game.

those guys are doing the impossible to give life to those games (both shadowrun and cthulhutech) and witout them we would be left with little exept D&D...

the guy put lots of time and effort and its only normal that when they tell you SEVERAL times to post in the homebrew and not to arge what is canon or not with them that they will loose their patience with you.

about the surge thing well its canon, if you dont want to use it thats your perogative.

but in Ctech its the exact reverse.

Imagine I come on dumpshock to ague that I want a Tecnomancer/physical adept or a technomancer mage?

anyway.

you want to argue thats fine, but play nice and leave personal insult out of your post.

If you come on dumpshock to argue a technomancer-mage or at least a Latent Awakened technomancer before the errata, I will take your side and say it is RAW. Because it was the RAW and the canon(fluff wise) did not state one way or another.

Calling someone a munchkin is an insult to me. Which is why I rarely (if I ever did) call anyone a munchkin if he did not use that label on himself first.

I agree that my previous statement probably crossed the line into insult territory, which is why I have struck them out. I do not think they have violated DS TOS, so I leave them struck out, it is not as if I did not make them in the first place, but I take them back.

[deek]

those guys are doing the impossible to give life to those games (both shadowrun and cthulhutech) and witout them we would be left with little exept D&D...

I think this is quite an exaggeration. I can name a good 7-10 games outside of DnD, Shadowrun adn Cthulhutech. And that number grows 10 times if you start including the indie games...several of which have just as high production values as the "big boys". Take a look around and you'll see gamers have a lot more viable options than at any point in the past!

[eidolon]

But the problem is that what he was saying wasn't in the book and when people found ways in the book around his canon, he jumped in and labelled them munchkins.

I can understand that, but look at it from my perspective for a sec (not saying it's right, just posing a different POV). The guy originally intended for there to be no way for a Tager to be a mech pilot. He thought he made it clear enough, but players being players, they found ways to circumvent any apparent restriction to make it happen. So the dev comes back and says "well, you're not supposed to be able to, so we'll fix that soon."

That sort of "dig around in the rules to specifically justify something that, whether you think it's cool or not, is absurdly powerful and not intended in the game" mentality just isn't something I possess. As much as I might hate the old RAW and RAI silliness that some wanks devolve into, sometimes it's just true. They didn't intend for Tagers to be mech pilots. In the world (read: fluff), they aren't. (I'm not a scholar of CTech, frankly I don't care much for the concept myself, this is just a frex.) To dig around and poke and prod and build and hammer away at the rules so that you can justify some game-breaking character build is, to me, munchkinry. It's the very definition of it, to me. Like Pun Pun. They might technically be possible, but they obviously weren't intended.

And I'm not saying that in every game or group that sort of thing is Bad™. I'm just saying that I've been on the "GM that doesn't have that mindset" side of these "but technically if you squint into the Western sun while standing on your right leg and peeing into the wind but being careful not to insult the moondogs of Venus it works" builds, so I can understand the frustration.

My disagreement isn't necessarily with his position but with his handling of it, I suppose. But before you open the gates of hell on me, I'm just saying that because of my personal gaming outlook, preferences, style, etc.

And on munchkin being flamewar-inducing, I'd think it would depend on tone, conversational context, the way the person took it, etc. I've seen lots of folks grin when called a munchkin (literally and figuratively) and others go on the defensive. Rarely have I ever seen it applied incorrectly in person, since I'm usually the one applying it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I dunno, I think it helps in all these cases to remember that The Internet is Serious Business. Hell, I wrote an article on why you should, as a gamer that wants to retain your sanity and remember how to have fun with games, get the fuck off the internet once in a while and just focus on what makes the game fun for you and your table. Applied specifically to the CTech Tager thing, who gives a shit what the internet says (even the game dev). If you want to play a Tager mech pilot, click the little red X in the top right of your browser and go play one. The only people that matter are at your game table.

Just so nobody takes this post all that seriously, picture us all sitting around playing Zombies!!! with beers in hand and talking about this. Everybody's friends 'round these parts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[PhishStyx]

I gotta say, as a member of both forums and of both games, I think Mike V is 100% right. He said that your Tager/Engel pilot/everything else you can stuff into the character would not be canon. Your response was what again? Oh right, to call him out on it on some rules lawyering bs about rules as written. Do you do that with your home GM when he tells you that you can't be an uber-sniper/rigger/technomancermage? I can tell you that you wouldn't do it to me as creator/GM more than once no matter what had been written down. There is a reason people get called munchkin. And as I recall, you ONLY got that munchkin label AFTER you spent a couple weeks arguing that canon rules were basically whatever you want them to be and he could go suck something large. Munchkinism isn't just about being a rules lawyer; it's being a dick about being a rules lawyer so that it only benefits you and your game disrupting fun. You didn't get your way over there, so you clearly chose to disrupt the Cthulhutech forum. Now you're doing it again. What ISN'T munchkin about that?

Now, I'm sure that you're some bigwig over here and can ban me or whatever, but personally, I'm of the opinion that you should be reported and censured for your little crossboard flamewar that you tried to get started here.

[PhishStyx]

I think this is quite an exaggeration. I can name a good 7-10 games outside of DnD, Shadowrun adn Cthulhutech.

Really? Hell, I own at least 25!

[deek]

Really? Hell, I own at least 25!

Heh, yeah...While I've been roleplaying for a couple decades, I really haven't played a whole lot...and looking at the games I've owned:

DnD (all four editions)
Twilight 2000
Shadowrun (1st & 4th)
Pendragon

And the games I've just played:

Vampire: The Masquarade

I figured that off the top of my head, that was a safe estimate, that if called out, I could name another handful of games;)

[eidolon]

Do you do that with your home GM when he tells you that you can't be an uber-sniper/rigger/technomancermage?

I'm going to say, with probably at least 85% certainty, that yeah, he would. Toturi is known for rules-adherence around here. It's hit thing, to some degree. (And there's nothing wrong with that except as in a taste difference.)

Now, I'm sure that you're some bigwig over here and can ban me or whatever, but personally, I'm of the opinion that you should be reported and censured for your little crossboard flamewar that you tried to get started here.

Mod hat on for a sec (no salmon???? nah)

Toturi isn't a moderator on Dumpshock.

If you feel the need to actually report someone for something, you can do so by hitting the little Report button on the post in question. Otherwise, what you're doing could be seen as baiting, which is against the TOS here (as an aside, having an opinion and voicing it is not). That's why we try to discourage members from trying to moderate here. Not because they are never right, but because it can lead to flamewars, insults, etc.

Mod hat back off.

Who's starting a cross-board war? Toturi is a member of two different communities. He happened to make mention of something that happened on one on the other, and it sparked a discussion. None of the Terms of Service were broken that I can tell (barring when toturi got really close to the insult line, but he realized it and backed off on it, which is all a warning would have asked had he not), and we're hardly showing up on the CTech forums causing hysteria and calamity. We're voicing opinions, which as long as they stay away from TOS violations, we don't censor here.

[PhishStyx]

I'm going to say, with probably at least 85% certainty, that yeah, he would. Toturi is known for rules-adherence around here. It's hit thing, to some degree. (And there's nothing wrong with that except as in a taste difference.)

My point was that he'd only get the opportunity to rudely tell me how to write (or run) my game one time. He wouldn't be invited back for a second shot at me.

Other than that, I can take a hint and go back to lurking or simply log myself out. Thanks anyway.

[Adarael]

You know, you're right. It's a little messed to tell someone how to write or run their own game. But you know what? As soon as that game is published and there's a forum on it, it's not *your* game any more. It's *our* game, because we form a community. Sure, it might be in poor taste, but so is locking any thread that might run counter to your intended 'canon'.

That said, I'd suggest calming your tona bit. You almost sound like a Mike sock puppet.

[cegorach]

Blatant munchkinism aside, I'd just like to point out the difference between pedantic rules adherence and canon with this example.

Sure, you can arrange numbers on a character sheet to give a white para tager character 3 points in pilot. Heck, you could give them 4 points in Mongolian folklore while you are at it.

The canon issue is that the operations of mecha and tagers don't mix in the setting.

In most cases, mecha are owned, maintained, monitored and secured by the NEG.

Same with those trained to pilot them.

And white para tagers, due to their nature, aren't exactly likely to be able to hold down a day job as a military pilot working in secure facilities.

Sure, you could have someone who WAS a pilot and then became a tager later on. There's your justification for those points.

But where are you going to get the mech?

If your long suffering GM lets you, maybe you could salvage one from a battlefield and spend ages repairing it - or some other strenuous effort to hog the attention from the rest of the player group so you can have your toy.

The point is then you would be a tager who happens to be able to pilot a mech, not a Mecha Pilot/tager occupational combo.

And good luck stomping that piece of metal around the place before someone with a much larger array of firepower stops you and asks just exactly what you are up to.

And even better luck keeping that thing running.

However, all the above is just a waste of time. The issue here is that it's obvious that thematically and game balance wise, tagers and mecha pilots are intended to be two different animals - and any attempt to have both is either an exercise in extreme munchkinism or some theoretical stretching of storytelling notions to prove a point.

I am happy this thread reminded me that my players do neither of the above.

And I pity the fool who has players that do. I hope they at least make them pay for the pizza.

[eidolon]

I split this out of the LE thread and put it where it belongs.

[Demonseed Elite]

I don't really follow CTech, but what I find interesting about the whole discussion is the suggestion that a developer's (would this extend to non-developer writers?) post on a forum is canon. As a former Shadowrun writer, I think that's a really horrible idea, personally. Not only because developers are just as prone to make incorrect statements on a forum as anyone else or because their posts on a forum generally aren't run through playtesting or even discussed among the development team first, but also because it creates a situation where you have canon material that is hard to account for. It's less accessible to players, who may not know where to find the information because it's not in a book, and it may be overlooked in future printings and errata.

I've made plenty of comments as a writer about how I intended material I've written to be, but I certainly wouldn't consider my posts here canon until Catalyst updates the books to include clearer text on what I intended. And I really consider that to be a good thing, because I think the discussion is healthy and sometimes things are pointed out to me that should be taken into consideration, regardless of what my intent was.