Combining karma and BP systems, Giving players a choice Options

[Veggiesama]

Has anyone ever allowed players the choice of building their characters with Karma or BPs?

If a character starts building with Karma (via Runner's Companion), they will continue to advance with Karma. If they start with BPs, I'd like to advance them with BPs too (something similar to FrankTrollman's system, probably). So half the group might get 10 Karma, while the other half gets 5 BPs for a completed mission.

Is this a recipe for disaster, or do-able? I have read that 750 karma vs 400 BP heavily favors karma-build, so I may tweak the starting numbers.

My reasoning is mainly this: I prefer karma characters, because they're more "organic" and and less uber-specialized, but I recognize that it's easier for new players to use BP, and most of my players will probably be new. I guess if someone knows SR4, I want them to karma-build.

Do you think it's better if I just force everyone to learn karma-build, or is providing a choice going to be worth the headaches?

[Glyph]

I think it's easy enough to do a simple table or two breaking down the Karma costs, like they had for BeCKS - when you do that, karmagen isn't really noticably more complicated than build points. I would favor that approach over trying to offer a choice between the two; they are too different. And you know that the result will probably be people doing a character using both methods, to determine which one is "best" for that character.

750 Karmagen definitely makes more powerful characters than 400 BP. Be careful about tweaking it, though, because the higher power curve is part of what creates those "more organic" characters - they are less hyper-specialized because they can create that specialist, then have the points left over to make it a more well-rounded character.

[ElFenrir]

I think 750 Karma is a little more in the 475-500 BP range, myself.

That said-I wouldn't mix them even then. Problem is, it's very hard to actually pinpoint what is worth what(I have seen 750 Karma builds that have went from 400-600 BP, and 400 BP builds that translated to over 800 Karma.) Then, the 'styles' are a bit different-even if you trimmed the Karma to 650 BP, most chargen always ends up heavily favoring Karma. THAT being said, I MUCH prefer karmagen builds.

However, using Frank's BP system, IMO, is a great second option, and having the whole group using that isn't a bad idea either, IMO. But I'd stick to one system if at all possible. (However, we ended up mixing the system due to latecomers coming in; the BP users were simply granted some more karma in-game to even everything out, and it worked beautifully.)

[Muspellsheimr]

It might be possible to balance, as you intend to hand out BP for advancement to BP-generated characters, & the same for Karma.

However, it would take a notable amount of work to discern appropriate ratio's of handouts, & even then is risky, because Karma uses scaled advancement, while BP is linear (meaning the more advanced the characters get, you need to adjust the handout ratio to avoid BP characters outpacing Karma characters - which can then backfire if the Karma characters increase low-level skills instead of advancing their primary abilities).


In other words, it is probably possible to do while maintaining balance, but I advise against it.

[Veggiesama]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I will restrict the system to Karma. You guys are right: it's not all that complicated, and I don't want to balance two systems on my hands.

I am going to do Karma 650, with (Log+Int) x 6 free karma for knowledge/language skills and Cha x 6 free karma for contacts (with a max of 4 on Loyalty and Connection ratings, probably). That's like ~40-90 points of free stuff, depending on base stats. Without free points, I know players would cut back on those first.

I have a few karma-gen questions while I'm at it:
1. Under "Build Point Conversions", it says the costs for metatype and qualities equal standard BP x 2 in karma. Every other passage ignores the metatype cost, saying it only matters for attributes. Which one is it?
2. Either way seems a little ridiculous if you throw the whacky races in the mix, like free spirits (do they cost 0 karma or 500 karma? hmm, big difference there). What gives?

[InfinityzeN]

For Metatype, they cost 0 Karma to play. Double their BP cost is added to half your total Karma Points to find out how many points you can spend on your attributes.

[Glyph]

It has also been pretty explicitly said, by people who have worked on Runner's Companion, that the karmagen rules were not intended for free spirits or AIs. My suggestion would be, since things like Drake or Infected are treated as qualities, to do the same for free spirits and AIs (and maybe even sapient critters and shapeshifters). This is because the "racial cost" for those options is a much bigger component of how they are balanced.

[ElFenrir]

I'd be careful of shifter costs, though. IMHO, their prices are not too well balanced(Big Cats should easily be more expensive than Bears. Big Cats get big bonuses to Body, Agility, AND Strength with very few minuses, while bears only get Body and Strength, the latter of which not being the most powerful attribute, and harder limits on their Agility and other things.) Cats also get more sense bonuses. Wolves pay a bit too much for no attribute bonuses whatsoever(the Regeneration alone is indeed worth something), but still.

I personally am working on a system to better balance the shifter costs into what, IMO, would make a bit more sense given everything they get. (A base costs for the Regeneration, modified by their weaknesses, and then modified again by their other bonuses.)

[Veggiesama]

I have read that Humans are "penalized" under the Karma system, or at least that metas who don't want to max Body 10 come out clearly ahead. Plus some metavariants cost more than the metas, and you'd still get them for free.

Has anyone tried to "fix" this?

I think making metas pay (BP x 2) Karma might be too much. What about just (BP) Karma, or (0.5 * BP) Karma? And what about AI/Free spirits/Infected/etc.? That 250 BP looks pretty arbitrary.

But then again, do I really *want* Body 10 trolls running around? If a Body 3 human (min 1 + 2) is average, why should a 7 troll (min 5 + 2) be average? Why not a 6? Maximum Body 10's might exist, but they could simply be much rarer than max Body 6 humans.

[HappyDaze]

Has anyone tried to "fix" this?

Just about everyone has tried, and each GM has his own system.

I charge twice the metatype BP cost in karma, but I also use racial modifiers instead of racial minimums/maximums. That means you pay for a rating of 1-6 and then modify for metatype. Later improvements are still based off of the 1-6 (so costs are outside of the racial modifiers). In my system, a troll pays the same karma for Strength 7 that a human does for Strength 3 (25 karma for either), and each would likewise pay 20 more karma to increase the score by 1. Note that I don't allow non-metahuman PCs nor are the Infected or Drakes allowed (changelings and metavariants are pretty much the only advanced options used from the RC for PCs).

[Muspellsheimr]

I have read that Humans are "penalized" under the Karma system, or at least that metas who don't want to max Body 10 come out clearly ahead. Plus some metavariants cost more than the metas, and you'd still get them for free.

Correct. I have proven this multiple times, as well as other posters. Every argument against this has been based on "metatypes should increase their attributes to high levels", something that is not at all required, & often (even in BP) not done. Under the assumption the metatype does do that anyways, they still come out ahead, because Humans do not even get the option of having attributes that high, and if they did, would pay a greater amount to achieve it.

Has anyone tried to "fix" this?

[ Spoiler ]

Karma Character Generation
> In a Karma-based character generation system, players start out building their characters with Karma – not Build Points. Essentially, improving the character from scratch. This makes Karma a default measure for players and gamemasters to compare relative experience between characters and allows a smoother transition between character generation and character advancement.
> Karma-based character generation is a bit more detailed and intricate than the Build Point system. Given the exponential cost of increasing ratings, the Karma system will tend to produce more diversified and less specialized characters.

Starting Karma
> Characters for a typical Shadowrun campaign should be built to a 600 Karma total – this produces characters roughly equivalent to those made with 400 Build Points. Gamemasters may adjust this total up or down to suit their tastes. Low-level campaigns might find 450 Karma more appropriate, while high-powered campaigns with expensive character options might generate characters with 750 Karma or more.

Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
> The Metatype category refers to your character’s “race”, and includes the various Metavariants. To play a Metatype or other racial option (non-Metahuman Sapient, AI, etc.), you must pay its Build Point value x 2 in Karma.

Step 2: Select Qualities
> Positive Qualities have a Karma cost equal to twice their Build Point value (so BP Cost x 2). Negative Qualities return bonus Karma equal to twice their Build Point bonus. Normally, characters cannot spend more than 70 Karma in Positive Qualities nor gain more than 70 Karma in Negative Qualities. Note that Template Qualities, such as the Infected, are an exception to this rule and do not count against the maximum Karma you may spend or earn back through taking qualities.
> If the character wishes to be Awakened or Emergent, the qualities that grant Magic or Resonance may be taken at this point as well as any complementary qualities such as Mentor Spirits and Paragons.

Step 3: Purchase Attributes
> Next, purchase the character’s attributes (including special attributes) using the costs given in the Karma Character Generation Table. Characters begin with the minimum attribute ratings defined by their race/metatype (including Templates). Before determining the advancement cost of an attribute, apply the inverse of any racial modifiers. To determine a racial modifier to an attribute, calculate the difference between the race’s maximum & 6 (an Elf has 8 maximum Charisma, the racial modifier is +2; a Dwarf has 5 maximum Reaction, the racial modifier is -1). The cost of increasing an Attribute is New Rating x 5 Karma.

Example: John wishes to increase his Troll’s Body from 5 to 6. Because a Troll has +4 Body, the cost is (6-4) x 5, or 10 Karma.

Example: John then decides to increase his Troll’s Charisma from 1 to 2. A Troll has -2 Charisma, so the cost is (2+2) x 5, or 20 Karma.

> The maximum Karma a character can spend on their attributes at character generation is half their starting Karma (rounding up). Characters cannot begin the game with more than one attribute at their natural maximum. Characters begin with an Essence of 6. The metatype maximum rating for Edge is 6 (7 for humans); other character races may have different Edge maximums (refer to their descriptions).

Step 4: Purchase Your Skills
> Next, consult the Karma Character Generation Table for the costs of raising skills and skill groups. Starting characters may only have one skill at Rating 6 (with the rest at Rating 4 or less) or two skills at Rating 5 (with the rest at Rating 4 or less). Skill groups may be purchased to a maximum of Rating 4 at character generation. Characters get their native language at Native rating for free.
> Characters receive additional starting Karma equal to (Logic + Intuition) x 10. This Karma may only be spent on Knowledge & Language skills.

Step 5: Convert Your Karma to Nuyen
> Next, purchase the character’s lifestyle and trappings. Each point of Karma is equivalent to 2,500 Nuyen. A maximum of 100 Karma can be converted into Nuyen in this fashion. Equipment with a Rating higher than 6 or availability greater than 12 cannot normally be purchased.

Step 6: Purchase Magical & Resonance Resources
> Characters with the Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, or another quality that lets them use foci may bind any foci they purchased by paying the Karma costs listed in the Focus Bonding Table. Spellcasters may purchase a number of Spells up to their Spellcasting or Ritual Spellcasting (whichever is higher) skill x 2. Technomancers may purchase a number of Complex Forms up to their Logic x 2.
> Conjurers may start the game with bound spirits by paying 1 Karma per service owed. The number of services owed may not exceed the character’s Summoning skill, and its Force is equal to the character’s Magic rating. The character cannot have more bound spirits than her Charisma attribute.
> Technomancers may start the game with registered sprites by paying 1 Karma per task owed. The number of tasks owed may not exceed the character’s Compiling skill, and its Rating is equal to the character’s Resonance. The character cannot have more registered sprites than her Charisma attribute.

Step 7: Select Contacts
> Each contact has both a Connection rating (1-6) and a Loyalty rating (1-6). The Karma cost of contacts is equal to Connection x Loyalty.
> Character’s receive additional starting Karma equal to their Charisma x 3. This Karma may only be spent on Contacts.

Step 8: Spend the Rest of Your Karma
> If there is Karma left over at this point, go back and see what you can do with it. A character may begin the game with up to 5 Karma they did not spend at character generation. All remaining unspent Karma is lost.

Step 9: Finishing Touches
> Apply the modifiers from your character’s implants, adept powers, and equipment to her attributes and calculate her Condition Monitor & Initiative (and Matrix Initiative & Astral Initiative as appropriate).

Step 10: Calculate Starting Nuyen
> Roll on the Starting Money Table (p.86, SR4). You may add +1 to your dice roll for each 100 Nuyen you did not spend during character creation, to a maximum of three times the number of dice rolled. Multiply the result by the appropriate factor listed, and the result is your character’s starting Nuyen.

Character Advancement
> Post-generation character advancement is handled using the same rules and costs as character generation, with the following alterations & exceptions:
• Contacts do not require Karma to obtain. They are gained purely through role-playing and the development of the story.
• You do not gain additional Karma for use on Knowledge/Language skills if your Intuition or Logic increases.
• All character generation limits are removed once the character begins play.
• Karma may not be exchanged for Nuyen, & vice-versa.

Optional Rule: Gamemasters may allow Karma <-> Nuyen exchange during game play. The conversion rate is 1 Karma per 2,500 Nuyen, or 2,500 Nuyen per 1 Karma. This can be explained as good luck with the lottery (Karma to Nuyen), donating funds & time to a cause (Nuyen to Karma), or anything else that feels appropriate for the character. Characters may only exchange 1 Karma or 2,500 Nuyen per game session this way. Gamemasters may allow an increased number of such exchanges in sessions with extended downtime, at their discretion.

This is what is used in my games, & it works very well (vastly superior to the Runners Companion version, & Build Point system). I also suggest allowing characters to designate a single character-generation-only Positive Quality exempt from the normal Karma limit, and allow Awakened/Emergent characters to begin play as a member of a Magical/Matrix group & possess an Initiate/Submersion Grade up to one-half their Magic/Resonance, round down (group/ordeal or equivalent discounts not available).

[ElFenrir]

Though I've found, under the new system, 750 Karma is much closer to the original BP amount(maybe 425ish), due to the 5x Cost. Though I suppose giving Submersion/Initiate grades, and that one free Positive Quality, however, might help this more, as well as the Free Karma for Knowledges AND the free contact Karma. With ALL of that it might even out a bit more, though I'd still be likely to stick with a more 750 system for a normal powered game with the 5x cost if we ever used that(though we are kinda happy with the old way.)

Keep in mind, I was thinking the 750 closer to the 425ish range under the new system assuming NO free points for knowledges, contacts, or qualities. Under that houserule system, yeah, it might be closer due to all the freebies.

Also, if the 600 were used with that, I'd ABSOLUTELY make sure that Edge and Magic did NOT count to that attribute max(just like under the BP system.)

[Doc Byte]

Has anyone tried to "fix" this?

The RC Errata will show. - I hope.

[Glyph]

Metatypes get their base cost for "free" because Attribute improvement is not a flat cost any longer - in other words, unlike BP, where a human spent 40 BP to raise Strength from 1 to 5, and a troll spent 40 BP to raise Strength from 5 to 9, now you have the troll spending significantly more. Forcing them to pay metatype cost x 2 is a poor fix, since you are fixing humans being more "not worth it" by making every other race "not worth it".

If you're going to "fix" that , you should "fix" build point generation, too, where an ork comes out 20 points ahead of a human, and still has a flat cost for increasing Attributes. Of course, there have been attempts to "fix" the metatypes, but they usually overcost them, since they generally factor in "exceptional Attributes" for their bonuses, never mind that the quality in question is overpriced and rarely used, and that most players would rather have 20 points of stuff than 20 points of potential.

Honestly, karmagen works fine as is. I am more likely to make a human under karmagen than I am to make one under build points, where orks are tempting when points get tight, and where all of the other metatypes are tempting when 200 BP doesn't quite stretch to what you want your Attributes to be.

The only problem with the karmagen system is that SR4A significantly increased the costs of increasing Attributes, and an errata is needed.

[ElFenrir]

Truth is, no system is perfect.

These adjustments do fix a few problems, but, IMO, they offer up their own problems. For an Ork, it costs 40 Karma for race, 10 Karma total to buy my Body and Strength to 4 and 3, and 50 Karma for my Charisma and Logic to 2(3-1.) Total? 100 Karma. Human? 30 Karma for Cha/Log 2, 25 Karma for Str 3, 45 Karma for Body 4...for a cost of 100 Karma. The benefit here is that the Ork used 40 less of their Attribute Karma to get these stats.

Which means, under, say, 700 Karma, both of them have 600 Karma left, but with the Ork I can spend 40 more on Attributes. It still pays, if those points are running thin, to play that Ork, IMO.

I've always thought the meta costs were screwed up anyway, and what I really want to do is completely revamp their costs; from least to most, IMO, it should be Elves, Dwarves, and then Orks/Trolls very close to each other.

Then again, one thing that I've done in my games is remove those augmented maxes. Humans and elves suddenly look a lot better, since those are the races that can actually benefit from this(since there isn't much ware that can actually take advantage of this with an ork or troll, and cyberlimbs, in our games, have a max of 9 for Custom Limb and +7 on top of that for 16.) To be fair, it's rare that humans or elves even take advantage of this fact, as it still costs a crapload of nuyen and essence typically(with the rule on Limbs being if they go past your Augmented Max you must have a Torso with equal Attributes as well to take full advantage, and since a Torso has very limited Capacity and costs a large amount of Essence, it tends to prevent the biggest insanity.)

I know it might sound like insanity to remove the augmented max caps, but I have to say I found it works wonderfully for getting people away from the ''eh, Ill just play an ork for the perks.''

[Muspellsheimr]

Though I've found, under the new system, 750 Karma is much closer to the original BP amount(maybe 425ish), due to the 5x Cost. Though I suppose giving Submersion/Initiate grades, and that one free Positive Quality, however, might help this more, as well as the Free Karma for Knowledges AND the free contact Karma. With ALL of that it might even out a bit more, though I'd still be likely to stick with a more 750 system for a normal powered game with the 5x cost if we ever used that(though we are kinda happy with the old way.)

I think you may misunderstand. My suggestion is not to give a free Positive Quality, but to allow the character to take one (with normal costs) that is exempt from the normal 70-Karma limit. Again, Initiation/Submersion grades are not given out, but rather made available, at normal cost.

Metatypes get their base cost for "free" because Attribute improvement is not a flat cost any longer - in other words, unlike BP, where a human spent 40 BP to raise Strength from 1 to 5, and a troll spent 40 BP to raise Strength from 5 to 9, now you have the troll spending significantly more. Forcing them to pay metatype cost x 2 is a poor fix, since you are fixing humans being more "not worth it" by making every other race "not worth it".

See my previous post.

Honestly, karmagen works fine as is. I am more likely to make a human under karmagen than I am to make one under build points, where orks are tempting when points get tight, and where all of the other metatypes are tempting when 200 BP doesn't quite stretch to what you want your Attributes to be.

Then you obviously have not run the numbers, or looked at any of multiple threads I have explained this in. By going Human if you are short on points, you are even shorter on points.

These adjustments do fix a few problems, but, IMO, they offer up their own problems. For an Ork, it costs 40 Karma for race, 10 Karma total to buy my Body and Strength to 4 and 3, and 50 Karma for my Charisma and Logic to 2(3-1.) Total? 100 Karma. Human? 30 Karma for Cha/Log 2, 25 Karma for Str 3, 45 Karma for Body 4...for a cost of 100 Karma. The benefit here is that the Ork used 40 less of their Attribute Karma to get these stats.

20 Karma total to increase Body & Strength by 1 each, & 30 Karma to increase Charisma & Logic to 2, not 50, in my system (they do not have a -4 penalty each). So with RAW costs, the Ork comes out 10 Karma ahead over the Human - similar to Build Point design, but not as extreme.

However, I would also suggest adjusting the Build Point cost of racial options to a more balanced value, as detailed here. If using this, the Ork is 20 Karma behind the Human, but is also taking into account their Low Light Vision & adjusted Racial Maximums.

[Glyph]

Actually, that's one of the biggest problems I have with people who add up numbers and try to make metatypes "fair" - there's no discount for the package deal. When you choose a metatype, you are stuck with a certain set of advantages and disadvantages, including some that you would either choose not to select, or choose to buy off, if you had the option. Someone playing a troll hacker would probably be happy with 3 Strength, but is stuck with 5. An ork or elf sammie will likely get cybereyes - but they still have to pay for the natural low-light vision that they won't even be using.

[ElFenrir]

I can feel you there. I actually wanted to play a ''weaker'' troll before, with base Body and Strength of 3 each. Guess what-by RAW, not only can't I do that, but even if the GM said ''sure'', I likely would still have to pay the full 40 BP for it, AND take all of their disadvantages along with it, with barely any of the Troll advantages. Now, for the concept I had, sure, I'll suck it up, I don't mind, but still.

If one day I can come up with a balanced template for a sorta ''customize your own meta'' kind of thing I'll be posting it. (I don't mean Trolls with Elf stats or Humans with Ork stats, but I would like to come up with something that will allow someone to be able to tweak up a meta a bit to fit a concept, like a 1 Charisma Elf or a Body/Strength 3 Troll. But IMO, i don't find it fair those people would have to pay the full amount.) It's probably easier than I think(see how much X abilities cost and knock off from the price.) Or it could be easier yet, they could just pick ''human'', buy the stats they want and just say they look like X race or whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Of course, the whole ''Make him an Ork'' comes into play, IME, from the Body bonus. The Strength bonus means little it seems, but since Orks get so few minuses, that free 4 Body(where they'd have to actually pay to get it to a 3 on a human, and that's not as good) is too good for a lot of people to pass up. Likewise, I doubt the person with the troll hacker with a 5 strength cares too much about that, but they do enjoy that base 5 Body.

[Falconer]

Quite frankly... I would not use both. As you'll get character discrepancies.

In theory, you could just set a cap of no more than 400BP or 500karma (EG: true power gamers will find ways to make 400BP chars worth more than 500 karma so the karma cap would kick in). Similarly, if using karma gen you can easily go over 400BP if you know how (though this is far less likely). But this would require you keep track of both BP and karma costs in chargen... which is a bit extreme.


Overall, now that I see Musp's changed house rule for chargen. I like it, especially since it includes cost mods for both positive and negative stats. And seems to be reasonable.

One thing I really like about karmagen is that you get less one trick ponies coming out of chargen... As the costs encourage more well rounded chars because it costs as much to build them now as advance them later. (which is the primary area where the rules get in trouble).