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[Relecs]

So I am in the process of creating a character (well actually two twins...) but anyways the point is I was looking through the guns and frankly I am starting to wonder why...why would anyone use a shotgun? aside from the flavour the weapons pales in comparison to the sniper rifle, sure it has the ability to fire a spread but once you get going with spread you can say goodbye to your damage and frankly one dead guard and two fine guards is better than three bruised guards.

Anyways what I'm hoping for is some tips on making highly effective gun wielders. The character will be using ware, and will have a high edge. (The characters are loosely based on the boondock saints for anyone who has seen it.) Right now my plan was to use longarms but if someone can convince me of a better weapon group that would be fine.

Essentially, what are the strong points of guns? what are the best tactics when using them? what is the best weapon/weapon group (in your opinion)? and why?

[Mäx]

but anyways the point is I was looking through the guns and frankly I am starting to wonder why...why would anyone use a shotgun? aside from the flavour the weapons pales in comparison to the sniper rifle

Becouse sniper rifles are really impractical to use in close quater combat( rules don't say anythink about this, but i think most GM:s will)
And shotguns are much cheaper then sniper rifles and if you get yourself one that is capable of burstfire the shotgun does pretty much same damage as sniper rifle or more.

[Relecs]

The damage may be the dame but if the enemy is wearing more than a t-shirt and jeans his armor will be pumped way up.

On the realism note I fully agree. Sniper rifles have to be properly calibrated, put in position, etc.

But why shotguns and not say...an assault rifle, I mean sure you get the +1 DV but at the cost of a much higher clip and the ability to burst fire and auto fire (this is not including the Auto-Assault 16 or the Mossberg because the auto assault is to rare to start with and the mossberg's clip is impractically small for a FA weapons.

By the way I'm just questioning this because I love the flavor of the shotgun but I don't want to make a character who has a neat flavor but can do squat in combat

[DWC]

Becouse sniper rifles are really impractical to use in close quater combat( rules don't say anythink about this, but i think most GM:s will)
And shotguns are much cheaper then sniper rifles and if you get yourself one that is capable of burstfire the shotgun does pretty much same damage as sniper rifle or more.

Conveniently, SR4A does address this, adding a chance that you'll screw up your sniper rifle if you try to use it as a battle rifle. Admittedly, the MA-2100 is exempt from part of this, and I'd imagine the next Arsenal errata will also extend this exemption to the Desert Strike, but that's another story.

By the way, Automatics is the superior skill within the Firearms group. A machine pistol loaded with Stick'n'Shock or capsule rounds makes a very effective sidearm, an assault rifle with a silencer and an extended barrel makes a passable sniper rifle replacement, and an assault rifle with a barrel reduction makes a brutal close quarters weapon.

But if you have your heart set on a shotgun, remember one thing. Solid slugs are your friend, preferably explosive or EX-explosive slugs.

[Critias]

There also aren't many Sniper Rifles with availability 3 or 4, and can be bought for about five hundred nuyen. There are Sport Rifles that tote similar availability and price, but they're pretty exclusively single shot. Shotguns, and ammo for them, are everywhere, and are cheap and generic enough to be near-disposable. There's also the concealability issue to consider (though most folks will often take Automatics or Pistols for a sidearm, Shotguns offer you an option or two for smaller stuff, too).

Different guns for different folks, of course. What fits your character's background, budget, and the feel of the game should matter to you more than a +1 here or a -1 there.

[Summerstorm]

I think if you are using a 1,6 meter long and 15 kilogramm heavy sniperrifle while inddorfighting you are doing something very very wrong (one of the rifles states that it will be bent afterwards with a modifier, the ranger Arms SM-4) Also shotguns can use slugs (which does not grant more armor, it is even more common than using shot) and a automatic shotgun easily outperforms an assaultrifle if you are near enough (all the time, in urban warfare)

My experience is in 3rd edition... but much of it translates to 4th so here is my opinion:

Hold-outs - hm hm... well if you really need it you can place them all over your body and no one will ever know. work great with a hidden arm slide.
Light pistols: You don't want them to know that you are packing, but still have a decent amount of pain. (they got better now in SR4 in my opinion)
Heavy Pistols: Now these are meant to really hurt. My characters often dual wield these in 3rd... they are exact, don't use that much ammo (and have enough capacity) and shred through normal armor easily.
Sub-Machine guns and auto pistols: I don't really like these to much, but if you have one with fullauto mode you can use one of them in each hand to lay down surpressing fire double the duration without reloading than with an assault rifle. Normaly they aren't that good with recoildampaning, so they are not as exact... Also they of course pack a great punch against slightly better armored foes.
Assault rifles: Now these you need if you WANT to start a war. If you expect heavily armored foes, you need full-auto. They allow for bursts, supressing fire, have good ammo, great range... but you will never be able to walk around with one under normal conditions. Very hard to get them unnoticed into buildings, or secure areas.
Assault cannon: If you need these... you either have a problem, or you are playing an AWESOME campaign *g*
Sniperrifle: Yay, support fire... don't you just love it, killing people and they can't do anything about it? Also great to bring insanely heavy armored people to their knees.
Special weapons: Well, everything that squirts dmso+Neurostun/Poison/anything, Bows, throwing weapons, Taseres and such normaly are an attempt to circumvent the armor of guys. Going against impact armor, often even halving it... used to get someone quickly down, but cost more per shot (and have very limited ammo and other drawback)
Also: Grenades=win.
If you are rich enough and/or good enough to hit your targets without wasting to much ammo: APDS, Ex-Ex or other special ammo is now something for you *g*

I normaly fall back to these combat styles: Very high skill, with silenced small pistols and hold outs (infiltrator), Chem weapons (Infiltrator), high-reflex and many IP's + ambidextrous double Heavy Pistols or automatic sub-machineguns for tearing up shit (bars, gangs, small security units). Assault rifles, grenade launchers and Autoshotguns = Urban warfare (You are doing something wrong, but it may happen so prepare). Of course having a character who is only prepared for one of these, and has no special options will be... boned. Only taking longarms seems a bad idea for me, if you are somewhere else than in Jungle or desert, killing soldiers and mercs. Pistols you can carry around and have proper permits for and no one will bother you.

[Captain Aardvark]

I usualy chose weapons from what I think is cool, and what fits the character. Shotguns are cool, and I can use them to intimidate people. Nothing says talk like a guy shoving a shotgun in your crotch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ancient History]

This is an Ares Predator IV. It is the most recognizable heavy pistol in the world. When you point this at someone's head, they know that if you even think then they are dead, and there will be a hole in their sorry skull big enough to piss through. Some of these other guns might be fancy and ergonomic and fit your strange, feminine elf grip better, but half of them look like fucking water pistols or alien ray guns out of the sims. This is an Ares Predator IV, and it gets the job done.

[Stahlseele]

Burst Capable Shotguns.
For everything else, there's a silenced SMG that shoots Gel/Stick'n'Shock or something else that will most likely take someone down nice and quiet fast.

[paws2sky]

The Franchi SPAS-22 is a personal favorite. The buckshot rules are kind of screwy (expensive AND ineffective! yay...). I prefer to go with EX-Explosive or Gel rounds.

The Ruger 100 and Remington sport rifles are nice, even straight out of the box. Easily modded up to a Mare's Leg a la Zoe from Firefly/Serenity.

For a concealable less-than-lethal weapon, I think you've have a hard time beating the Fichetti Security 600 with Internal Smartlink, Fully Ceramic Parts, Shortened Barrel, Internal Silencer, and Stick-N-Shock ammo. Huge ammo capacity, very concealable, very good at defeating armor. (It'll only set you back several thousand nuyen...)

For a heavy pistol, I like the Ruger Super Warhawk with Firing Selection Mod (SA), Personalized Grips, Increased Cylinder, Quick Draw Holster, and either APDS or EX-Explosive. Heck, even Gel rounds are halfway decent in this beast. Custom Look is optional, but recommended.

In short, I take some weapons for effectiveness, some for style. Most are a mix of both.

-paws

[Octopiii]

Looking at the Anniversary edition, the damage code for the Ares Slivergun is 8p(f) but the armor modification is only +2.
The Remington 990 also has the same issue: 9p(f), +2

The Remington Roomsweeper has the Flechette damage code listed as 7p(f) and armor mod of +5.
The Raecor Sting, Mossburg Shotgun and Frag grenade and Frag rocket also have the proper armor modification listed.

So are those two weapons special? The slivergun in particular would be a pretty nasty handgun.

[DWC]

Looking at the Anniversary edition, the damage code for the Ares Slivergun is 8p(f) but the armor modification is only +2.
The Remington 990 also has the same issue: 9p(f), +2

The Remington Roomsweeper has the Flechette damage code listed as 7p(f) and armor mod of +5.
The Raecor Sting, Mossburg Shotgun and Frag grenade and Frag rocket also have the proper armor modification listed.

So are those two weapons special? The slivergun in particularly would be a pretty nasty handgun.

The updated version of the SR4A PDF sorted that typo and boosted them back to the +5 AP.

Almost forgot my other favorite. You can't go wrong with a crate of Ares Predator IVs that you use once, then drop in a barrel of thermite.

[Dumori]

My funest weapon so far was a punch dagger with a 2 shot 7P pistol in it. I plan was that on the rune while moving to engage in melee you cold fire of the two SA shots. Another go one is the how low you can get the concelability on a hold out if you don't need much range. I think I had it under -8 while a 5 round clip and a 15m range aint the best form my stealth char it worked perfectly for silent take downs.

[Octopiii]

The Slivergun is still a good contender for your pistol needs - with a narrow burst, you're up to 10p. Do a called shot to bypass armor: "I shoot him in the face" and your opponent's visage becomes a spray of goo. Oh, and it comes with 30(!) bullets per clip.

[Dumori]

The Slivergun is still a good contender for your pistol needs - with a narrow burst, you're up to 10p. Do a called shot to bypass armor: "I shoot him in the face" and your opponent's visage becomes a spray of goo. Oh, and it comes with 30(!) bullets per clip.

Ah the good old ghoul slayer. In a game based around working as pest control that was the sidearm of choice a long with a shotgun.

[Stahlseele]

If you want pure Useability?
Go SMG/Assault-Rifle only.
One for Short Range Bursts, the other for long Range.
For style, you just can't beat a good old Pump Action Shortgun.
The Ka-CHACK should induce instant resolve test in anybody hearing that behind his head.
And the Burst/Fully automatic Shortguns should come directly after the nice and soothing whirrr or a Minigun ^^

[Dumori]

the Auto-Assulte modded with two 40 round drums song slug one shot is lethal. 6 turns of suppressive fire and the ability to red mist hoards. Or use SA and just keep shooting.

[Dikotana]

Don't think of the shot rules as a reason not to use shotguns. Against most opponents you don't want shot, you want slugs. Then you're just using a shorter-range, non-burst, heavy-hitting rifle. Reduce the barrel and you can even conceal it, although you also lose even more range. It has its advantages and disadvantages.

If you need crowd control, though, or end up fighting packs of animals, or the aforementioned ghouls, shot is your friend. It's an option. Carry around some shot for when you need it and otherwise stick with treating your shotgun as a good ol' slug thrower.

[Stahlseele]

the Auto-Assulte modded with two 40 round drums song slug one shot is lethal. 6 turns of suppressive fire and the ability to red mist hoards. Or use SA and just keep shooting.

Do that with Flechette and you can fill whole football fields with flying death.

[Captain Aardvark]

And if your demo-expert has lost his explosives (or is a red splat on the wall a couple of rooms back), you can use it as a skeleton-key.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

A firearm is a tool.

Do you use a crescent wrench to pound a nail? Of course not.

The right tool for the job.

Sniper rifles are great for those occasions where you need to be a long way out from the target and need to be able to take out said target with a single shot.

A shotgun is excellent for close in work, slugs/flechettes pick your flavor.

You need to be quiet though? Well a heavy pistol with a silencer is going to be better than a shotgun.

Assault rifles are pretty good intermediate weapons. They have decent range (not great but good) and can handle close up work nicely. Add a grenade launcher and you can handle a wide variety of targets.

SMG's are better for close work, where you want more punch than a pistol but need to have something that is more concealable than a shotgun.

Need to take down a target but keep them alive? Well, a taser or a paintball gun w/ DMSO and tranq are good routes. You could even use a slap patch.

Be flexible, look at the situation, think of contingencies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cadmus]

What about Rope? Charlie bronson always has rope, and they always end up using it.

[Cthulhudreams]

Shotguns are bad. The best weapon group depends on the role, an how you think the rules for exotic weapon skill is supposed to work. I'm not sure if they've clarified trhis in SR4A, but at least in the orginal book the description how exotic weapon skills are supposed to work is inconsistent with every single example in the book.

If its you need 1 exotic weapon skill for every unique weapon, it blows

If exotic melee: Ranged gives you every exotic ranged weapon, it is good

A) For street sammie you want long arms, exotic melee weapons (monowhip) and potentially squirt guns (see above)

B) For anyone who's main job isn't killing people with guns, Automatics is just better. Pistols with spec: Semi-auto is a distant second.

[Stahlseele]

Shotguns have more Range and Damage than heavy Pistols and more Options than Rifles.
If you plan on using the Shotgun for Stuff other People would use Heavy Pistols for, you are probably getting more Bang for your Buck ^^

[Cthulhudreams]

The thing you want to do with pistols is 'carry it in a concealed manner' which is hard with shotguns.

[Stahlseele]

Depends. Shorter Barrel, folding stock . . being a huge tall metahuman also helps a bit ^^
Or at least, it should <.<
First you go:"Whoa . . a Troll . . Tall fella o.O"
Then you go:"And god damn is he packing heat. That's hotta be the biggest Pistol i ever saw"
After that:"What kind of Pistol IS that anyway? Does that thing have TWO Barrels?"
Later:"Holy shit! That's a frigging SHORTGUN he's slinging around like other people would handle a Predator?"

[kigmatzomat]

We've got some house rules for shotguns that go back to SR1 when we decided that a) shot ammo is cheap and b) shot is bad for rifling.

1. Flechette ammo, the expensive stuff, is comprised of specially shaped needle-like darts that interlock for firing and interact with rifled barrels like standard solid rounds. Flechette normally stays in close proximity and doesn't spread. (except as noted below)

2. shot rounds are round balls of metal that are as cheap as standard ammo but they disperse immediately upon fired, destroying rifled barrels and creating a spread pattern.

3. Smooth bore shotguns (or a rifled barrel shotgun that is then used with shot) has 75% range for APDS and smartlinks actually impose a -2 penalty unless they are specifically calibrated for APDS. Smartlinks can only have one calibration so apply that penalty to shot if APDS calibrated. (That narrow penetrator is pretty erratic without that spin stabilization while slugs rely on inertia to maintain a straight line without spin.)

4. Rifled shotguns can use expensive flechette ammo and get the same spread pattern as shot without destroying the rifling. Smartlink calibration is consistent across all non-shot rounds.

[Snow_Fox]

Snpier rifles,- large clunky and impractical to move quickly. great take down when you can pick the shot but otherwise lousy.
Shot gun, in close and light. good take down damage at close range, easy to move, cheap.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

I guess I should have added the proviso...that I was thinking in terms of SR3. I guess I missed the SR4...shotguns are exotic weapons???

[Knight Saber]

I guess I should have added the proviso...that I was thinking in terms of SR3. I guess I missed the SR4...shotguns are exotic weapons???

In SR4, shotguns are fired with the Longarms skill. That also covers sniper rifles and sporting rifles. A sniper could have a short barrel Defiance T-250 as his personal weapon (Same conceal penalty as a machine pistol).

[Cthulhudreams]

Snpier rifles,- large clunky and impractical to move quickly. great take down when you can pick the shot but otherwise lousy.

In a world with shadowrun level survilliance and response capabilities, there are really three modes of operation:

A) Big guns Time

B) Covert Activity Time

C) Transitioning from B to A when you get sprung.

In big guns times the big clunky nature of the sniper rifle is outweighed by its benefits. Basically the big sniper rifles with APDS can kill high force spirits. Shotguns cannot. As high force spirits (and drones) are a realistic and tangible threat, sniper rifles RULEZ AND SHOTGUNS DROOLZ

Or something

B) Both are relatively incapable of covert activity. I suppose you could get a sawn off, but even then it's not really concealable, and MAD scanners will find you. Conversely sniper rifles can be used at ranges beyond reasonable detection distances.

C) The transition - both of them blow for this too really because you cannot 'have them' in the covert stage and pull them out when things go south. Both are obvious. This is, incidently, the space that automatics totally dominate.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

In SR4, shotguns are fired with the Longarms skill. That also covers sniper rifles and sporting rifles. A sniper could have a short barrel Defiance T-250 as his personal weapon (Same conceal penalty as a machine pistol).

Well that doesn't seem so bad. I heard exotic weapon and my brain went into D&D mode. I guess that is really a short barreled shotgun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[The Jake]

The Slivergun is still a good contender for your pistol needs - with a narrow burst, you're up to 10p. Do a called shot to bypass armor: "I shoot him in the face" and your opponent's visage becomes a spray of goo. Oh, and it comes with 30(!) bullets per clip.

For this reason, the Slivergun has been my personal sidearm of choice for 3 Editions.

In 4E, its a tougher call to make... but now I'm leaning towards Automatics. Machine Pistols are weapons of all seasons now! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- J.

[Knight Saber]

For this reason, the Slivergun has been my personal sidearm of choice for 3 Editions.

In 4E, its a tougher call to make... but now I'm leaning towards Automatics. Machine Pistols are weapons of all seasons now! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- J.

One noteworthy difference from SR 3 to 4 is how weapon concealability ratings have been eliminated. Any machine pistol will be harder to hide than any heavy pistol, all other things being equal. Furthermore, a pistol can be explained away a lot more easily than a machine pistol. "Oh, I might need to spray down a whole room with bullets in self defense, yeah..." A shotgun or sporting rifle can be left in plain sight on your pickup's gun rack, but an assault rifle or sniper rifle will raise a whole lot of eyebrows.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

One noteworthy difference from SR 3 to 4 is how weapon concealability ratings have been eliminated. Any machine pistol will be harder to hide than any heavy pistol, all other things being equal. Furthermore, a pistol can be explained away a lot more easily than a machine pistol. "Oh, I might need to spray down a whole room with bullets in self defense, yeah..." A shotgun or sporting rifle can be left in plain sight on your pickup's gun rack, but an assault rifle or sniper rifle will raise a whole lot of eyebrows.

Excellent point. If the weapon causes you more problems then it is going to solve...might think about an alternative.

[ImmoralSalvage]

Which is why I went with a shotgun on my most recent guy. I mean even if he is caught with the gun. it’s a lot less to bribe a cop off to forget about a shotgun then it is a Colt M23 or a Barret Model 121. Then again I dare a cop to find my shotgun. I went with a Barrel Reduction, throw a sling on it, and got my GM to approve a house rule weapon mod call stock removal for the game which added a -1 conceal, and you are left with a -3/-4 (ready/unready the sling specifics in the description between ready and unready) throw that under a lined coat, and you got a -5/-6 conceal . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Hagga]

The Aztechnology flamer. Let's face it - is there really a situation that can't be solved by barbecuing someone? Or possibly the Ares MP-3 Laser.

[Stingray]

Excellent point. If the weapon causes you more problems then it is going to solve...might think about an alternative.

...it also depends where you are,in darkest Barrens open lined coat and Assault Rifle under it is ok,
poshier places Ares Predator IV with licence is acceptable, and of course
there are places where tasers or extendable batons are acceptable also..

[paws2sky]

And let's not forget, things like tasers, knives, and even extendable batons are perfectly legal in most places.

You might get some sideways looks or be required to check them, but technically, they don't require permits. Of course, if you use them in them commission of a crime, they will probably allow the authorities to trump up the charges to some ridiculous degree. (Well, assuming they catch you.)

-paws

[tarbrush]

The Aztechnology flamer. Let's face it - is there really a situation that can't be solved by barbecuing someone? Or possibly the Ares MP-3 Laser.

This is why they have availability >12. Otherwise everyone would be using them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stingray]

And let's not forget, things like tasers, knives, and even extendable batons are perfectly legal in most places.

You might get some sideways looks or be required to check them, but technically, they don't require permits. Of course, if you use them in them commission of a crime, they will probably allow the authorities to trump up the charges to some ridiculous degree. (Well, assuming they catch you.)

-paws

That is reason why you should always check weapons policy of the meeting place..

[paws2sky]

That is reason why you should always check weapons policy of the meeting place..

Indeed. Its a good idea to get as much info about your meeting place(s) as possible.

-paws

[Kerrang]

What about Rope? Charlie bronson always has rope, and they always end up using it.

LOL - that is the perfect response to the OP.

Noting that this character is being modeled after the Boondock Saints, how close do you want to get to that theme? In the movie, they pretty much exclusively used pistols and shotguns, and they were quite often dual wielding the pistols. As a GM who encourages role play over power gaming, I would give more personal karma to you for roleplaying those aspects of the character, and using pistols and shotguns even when the situation might call for something different.

[Stingray]

LOL - that is the perfect response to the OP.

Noting that this character is being modeled after the Boondock Saints, how close do you want to get to that theme? In the movie, they pretty much exclusively used pistols and shotguns, and they were quite often dual wielding the pistols. As a GM who encourages role play over power gaming, I would give more personal karma to you for roleplaying those aspects of the character, and using pistols and shotguns even when the situation might call for something different.

2xAres Predator IV w/skinlink,Personalized grip,Internal silencer and Improved Range Finder
Remington 990 w/Internal Smartgun System,skinlink,Improved Range Finder. (Easy Breakdown(manual) ?)
Pistols(Heavy Pistols) 6(+2)
Longarms(Shotguns) 4(+2)
Reflexes Recorder (Longarms skill)
High Edge
High Charisma
Ambidextrous
Muscle Toner (lvl 2,Alphaware)
Agilty at least 5(7)
Martial Arts(Krav Maga or Firefight)
Addiction(Mild) (Alcohol)
That would be starting idea.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[LynGrey]

A) Big guns Time

In big guns times the big clunky nature of the sniper rifle is outweighed by its benefits. Basically the big sniper rifles with APDS can kill high force spirits. Shotguns cannot. As high force spirits (and drones) are a realistic and tangible threat, sniper rifles RULEZ AND SHOTGUNS DROOLZ

When i think Big Guns i'm thinking HMGs, MMGs, LMGs, Assualt Cannons and Rocket launchers... i guess we arne't on the same page...

[Chrysalis]

A firearm is a tool.

Do you use a crescent wrench to pound a nail? Of course not.

The right tool for the job.
...

Completely agree.

[DuctShuiTengu]

Tasers: Reasonably inexpensive, no license required, and they have the same electricity damage that everyone loves about S&S. That said, their ammo capacity and range suck and they don't load anything but taser darts. Still, you can actually pull and use one of these in public without drawing too much attention, so it's not something to be overlooked.

Holdouts: these have one big thing going for them: concealability. On the other hand, they have terrible damage, range and ammo capacity are stlll relatively low, and they don't have mounts for accessories. That said, weapon modifications can get you around the issue with accessories, if you have the right skills - or right contacts; and by the time you finish drawing and emptying a Cavalier Scout into someone, one of you will be dead - if you're not sure it'll be them, this was a time for a bigger gun.

Light Pistols: Compared to the holdouts, the light pistols have 3 things going for them: Ammo capacity, weapon mounts, and cost. That said, they still have the same lack of damage and range, and lose some of the concealability that was a selling point for hold-outs. Use them for the disposability that comes with having negligible cost and availability; skip the post-run drinking binge to go buy a new one after you had to drop or destroy one of these and you'll probably find yourself with more money at the end of the night.

Heavy Pistols: Sidearms with serious stopping power. Less concealable than the prior categories, but the added damage, range, and AP are well worth it if you can get away with them.

Machine Pistols: Probably the biggest selling-point for these is that they use the automatics skill. With the right mods, one of these can potentially still be fairly concealable - though it won't compete with the actual pistols - allowing someone who primarily uses assault rifles to have a reasonably discreet back-up without going into another skill. That said, damage and range are back down at light pistol levels, and you're going to have to put a lot of work into giving them decent recoil compensation. Use it as a sidearm for the guy who needs a slightly more discreet alternative to their usual assault rifle.

SMG: Slight improvement in damage over the Machine Pistol, large improvement in range. Still, for a similar price, you can get an assault rifle with even more damage, range, and AP. Main reason for using is that it is still a one-handed weapon; use it if you're needing the other hand for something else.

Assault Rifle: The automatic weapon. Good damage, range, and AP combined with burst-fire and full-auto capabilities. It's not discreet, but it's probably the best all-around weapon for firefights.

Sniper Rifles: The name says it all. But in case it doesn't: Range and damage. Great for providing distance support or when assassination is the name of the game.

Sporting Rifles: Fills the same role as the sniper rifle, above. Doesn't do it as well, but it's cheaper, less hyper-specialized, and can be explained away to Lone Star.

Shotguns: High damage, terrible AP. Great for tearing up unarmored and lightly armored foes. Switch to slugs or a different weapon if you're facing heavily armored opponents - or any where called shots can't be used to bypass armor. Also works as a back-up weapon for the team sniper, as it provides close-range threat removal tied to the skill they were already taking.

Machine Guns: Start at Assault Rifle stats and work up from there. Better range than the Assault Rifles, but more recoil. Use LMGs for drones or vehicles where you can't manage/don't want a reinforced mount. For use outside of mounting them on vehicles, go ahead and get the HMG - it's more expensive, but by the time you're wanting/needing to bring one of these, you need the extra firepower more than you need the money. Just make sure you have plenty of recoil compensation.

Assault Cannons: Match sniper rifles for range, with even more power. On the other hand, the ammo here is expensive as all get-out, so you don't want to use it if you don't have to.

[Captain Aardvark]

There is one point people forget about the shotgun. Even if the damage doesn't penetrate the armor, you can be pretty certain that you will drop him from the stun damage. Remember that both the Star and corps are much more likely to hunt you down if you start killing them and their employees.

[psychophipps]

Remington 970 and Predator IV for me. Best combo of firepower, cost, and legality.

[KarmaInferno]

I actually just noticed this, but...

Did nobody mention to Catalyst that the "12" part of Auto Assault 12 is not a model number?

It refers to the shotgun shell gauge size.

The bigger the number, the smaller (and less powerful) the shotgun shell.

So an AA-16 would be a pathetically underpowered weapon for urban combat.

Also, nearly every article about the modern day AA-12 also discusses the FRAG-12 shaped charge HE ammo that is expected to be fielded with the shotgun for specialty use. Yet the shotgun gets into Arsenal but the ammo does not.


-karma

[Bob Lord of Evil]

I actually just noticed this, but...

Did nobody mention to Catalyst that the "12" part of Auto Assault 12 is not a model number?

It refers to the shotgun shell gauge size.

The bigger the number, the smaller (and less powerful) the shotgun shell.

So an AA-16 would be a pathetically underpowered weapon for urban combat.

Also, nearly every article about the modern day AA-12 also discusses the FRAG-12 shaped charge HE ammo that is expected to be fielded with the shotgun for specialty use. Yet the shotgun gets into Arsenal but the ammo does not.


-karma

The SR4 rules state that a 16 gauge is underpowered for urban combat? What damage rating do they give to it as compared to a 12 gauge?

[Critias]

Of course they don't say anything about a 12 gauge versus a 16 gauge, or a 9mm versus a .45, or anything like that (they never have, and sadly never will). Instead, they seem to just be misunderstanding the numbering convention of the weapon in question. The real-life Auto Assault 12 is named that because it fires 12 gauge ammunition. They tacked a few numbers onto it to make up a Shadowrun version (the Auto Assault 16, following the same naming conventions as the M-23, the AK-97, etc)...either not knowing, or caring, that the number involved meant something.

They just made it a little higher number to say it was from the future, and left it at that.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Ahhh...I see. Thought I had missed something major. Much like C-4 (Composition 4) actually means something where as C-12 in SR3 kind of misses the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[blindfox]

ah, another subject near and dear to my heart... >:)
im not going to go into the concealability issues brought up here by other posts into much detail but simply the practical applications i have found.

first, id like to address the shotgun point:
the shotgun is a wonderful tool. predominately we use them for breaching doors- aiming not for the knob/lock but the hinges. slug ammunition is good for putting a running engine out of commision to stop a vehicle that is trying to run past your traffic control point. remember, though, that you should not shoot slugs out of a shotgun with a choke. shot ammunition is great for sweeping rooms but generally a bad idea when collateral damage is an issue. also, a shotgun is one of the easiest firearms to become proficient with and is therefore one of the most widely used firearms today (discounting the AK-47). racking a round in a shotgun is an almost universally known sound and, as such, is a potent psychological multiplier. be aware of over-penetration in self defense roles where thin walls are concerned; check your backstop.

assault rifles are generally, in my opinion, the ultimate tool for urban and rural combat up to 300m. they are relatively light, accurate, and powerful with a strong opportunity for followup shots. i should note that an assault rifle is best suited to semi-automatic fire in controlled pairs and well-aimed shots. burst fire is a last resort- that's what light machine guns are for. typical training teaches us to put two in the chest and one in the head. the first will impact the armor and, in the case of a ceramic plate, will cause it to deteriorate to the point where the second round penetrates. when all else fails (or the guy is on some sweet drugs) go for the insurance round.
(aside: when an instant incapacitation is desired your aimpoint should be midway between the nostrils and the top of the lips from the front, or at the base and in line with the center of the ear from the side. this targets the medulla oblongata, the motor strip, of the brain. without this organ no impulses are transmitted to the CNS.)
to tie in with an earlier point, i carried my M4 at the ready, a pistol handy (on a vest, or strapped to my thigh when ghillied up) and my sniper rifle (M24) in a "drag bag" on my back. the long gun was not broken out until i was in my hide.
and from experience, dont try to clear a house with a sniper rifle.

sub machine guns will suffice in close quarters as has been stated in prior posts, so i wont go into this one too far. a good substitute for an assault rifle when over-penetration is an issue. however, due to the lesser velocity and ft/lbs of kinetic energy (knockdown power) i would recommend burst fire. also, unlike the assault rifle, the submachine gun is great for quiet work. perhaps in another post down the road i can get all wiz-bang crazy on describing silencers, their design, principles, and employment...

pistols? well, the uses of pistols are well known enough that i doubt there's anything useful i could post here. one thing i could think to mention though: make sure you know how to clear a malfunction. if you cant quickly clear a double-feed you're boned. of course if you get a stovepipe, you're boned anyway and retreat, er... "tactical withdrawl" is probably your best option.

at the risk of prattling on any longer than i already have, all i will say about sniper rifles is dont even try to engage a target at less than 75m. unless your target is inanimate and immobile, you'll have a very hard time maintaining a sight picture.


generally, my characters stick with pistols since you can get them and take them most anywhere. they're great silenced and have a multitude of accessories. shotguns are great and handy but i usually dont want to slot the points in that skill since there are so many more that are important. besides i can always default skill to skill (i play SR3) and my characters invariable have somewhere a slivergun or roomsweeper. i only give my characters skill in assault rifles if it fits the background story i created before i crunch numbers. in the case of the twins, they should certainly be more than proficient with pistols but their proficiencies with other weapons should be based on their backgrounds and what has been available for them to train with.

[yorks6988]

My personal favorite is the Enfield AS-7 shotgun. With burst fire and a 24 round drum, things can get real mushy when you get into 2 or 3 IPs.

One question though. If it could be modified to shoot 10 or 8 gauge rounds, how much extra DV would you give it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My personal favorite is the Enfield AS-7 shotgun. With burst fire and a 24 round drum, things can get real mushy when you get into 2 or 3 IPs.

One question though. If it could be modified to shoot 10 or 8 gauge rounds, how much extra DV would you give it.

Definitely a nice weapon...
12 Guage is .72 caliber and is pretty brutal when you are using Magnum 3" rounds...

If you Modified the guage of the weapon (like in the Cannon Companion of 3rd Edition)? Probably only a +1 DV more (Maybe +2 if you went all the way to a 4 Guage round)...

[Kerenshara]

Becouse sniper rifles are really impractical to use in close quater combat( rules don't say anythink about this, but i think most GM:s will)
And shotguns are much cheaper then sniper rifles and if you get yourself one that is capable of burstfire the shotgun does pretty much same damage as sniper rifle or more.

And this doesn't even address the issue of legality: there are fully automatic shotguns that are completely legal to carry down the street, while every single sniper rifle is illegal as drek.

Conveniently, SR4A does address this, adding a chance that you'll screw up your sniper rifle if you try to use it as a battle rifle. Admittedly, the MA-2100 is exempt from part of this, and I'd imagine the next Arsenal errata will also extend this exemption to the Desert Strike, but that's another story.

The Desert Strike is based on the Accuracy International L96A1 Arctic Warfare sniper rifle in real world use. Have a look: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn06-e.htm
It's a very robust weapon, earning a distinguished record in the mountains of Afghanistan while being primarily designed to cope with arctic environments (precisely the description of the Desert Strike if you read the "Extreme Environment Lv 1" modification). It is NOT designed for CQB or (heavens forfend) hand-to-hand fighting. Now, given the advances in 6th world materials technology, I can see it where it could be MODIFIED easier than many rifles to that spec, but it would still not be standard as is mentioned on the MA-2100.

[Kerenshara]

We've got some house rules for shotguns that go back to SR1 when we decided that a) shot ammo is cheap and b) shot is bad for rifling.

Except there's no reason the "shot" couldn't be in a cheap plastic sabot that falls away as soon as it leaves the barrel, but you'd be restricted to a tight pattern.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And this doesn't even address the issue of legality: there are fully automatic shotguns that are completely legal to carry down the street, while every single sniper rifle is illegal as drek.


The Desert Strike is based on the Accuracy International L96A1 Arctic Warfare sniper rifle in real world use. Have a look: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn06-e.htm
It's a very robust weapon, earning a distinguished record in the mountains of Afghanistan while being primarily designed to cope with arctic environments (precisely the description of the Desert Strike if you read the "Extreme Environment Lv 1" modification). It is NOT designed for CQB or (heavens forfend) hand-to-hand fighting. Now, given the advances in 6th world materials technology, I can see it where it could be MODIFIED easier than many rifles to that spec, but it would still not be standard as is mentioned on the MA-2100.

I tend to prefer the HK-PSG1 Enforcer... A rifle robust enough to stick around for 80 years has gotta be good... aside from the fact that it is THE top of the line sniper rifle in existence today in my opinion... and not nearly as heavy as the Barrett (Weapon system OR rounds)...

[Kerenshara]

Kerenshara's choices and why:

Hold Out: Morrisey Elan with hermetically sealed densiplast rounds; It's tiny, stylish (when that counts), easy to conceal and doesn't show up on mad scanners.
==>When concealability matters

Light Pistol: Light Fire 70 using the "special" silencer with the following mods: Dual Magazines, electronic firing, smartgun link and skinlink; It's still small, the silencer is "same availability as the weapon" which means "R" not "F", the silencer gives an extra -1 to perception, the electronic firing negates the double tap recoil as well as giving another -1 to perception and means I don't have any spent brass to police, and the two mags mean I can go from subsonic ammunition to capsule/DMSO-Narcojet if I need to be non-lethal, nil wireless signal.
==>Standard day-to-day pistol that she keeps in her jacket.

Heavy Pistol: Colt Government Model 2066 with an integral silencer, smartlink, skinlink, melee hardening and extreme environment 1; 14 rounds, nil wireless signature, no recoil, VERY quiet with subsonic ammo, no brass, and tough and reliable as the year is long.
==>When a little more firepower matters, but you don't want to advertise.

Machine pistol: None - if I want auto fire, I go to an SMG.

Submachine Gun: FN P93 Praetor (Electronic Firing) with integral suppressor, skinlink vice flashlight, smartgun, extreme environment 1, melee hardening; 50 rounds, very low recoil, nil wireless signature, VERY quiet with subsonic ammo, no brass, and tough and reliable as the year is long plus automatic fire and better range. [bullpup - we have house rules for concealability]
==>High intensity stealth entry, when autofire and short length will matter.

Assault Rifle: Stock AK97 - completely legal and you can't kill them OR Colt M22A3 - also legal WITH a grenade launcher, despite poor built in features, and modding it kills the "legality" bit... or at least makes it more likely to draw really close inspection.
Assault Rifle: Ares Alpha w/ electronic firing, skinlink, integral suppressor; I think you can see the pattern with my weapons here, right? 40 rounds, grenade launcher, controlable recoil, nil wireless sound or brass. [bullpup - we have house rules for concealability]
==>This is heavy duty bang-bang for her: she's more concerned about not bringing the neighbors running than being subtle for her target.

Shotgun: Enfield AS-7 with smartgun vice laser sight, dual clip, extreme environment 1, melee hardening; It's legal durrable and mean, olus being able to switch between two clips.
==>When she doesn't give a damn about being subtle, quiet or carefull any more.

Sporting Rifle: None

Sniper Rifle: Desert Strike with smartgun, accessory bipod, image mag for the smartgun vice normal scope, melee hardening, integral silencer, and electronic firing; Anybody notice I'm a little obsessive about policing my brass? The GM doesn't want to let me have a Barrett - they're disgusting weapons. Plus the Desert Strike is lighter and smaller.
==>I believe the 20th century jingle went "Reach out and touch some-one!" If we're walking in boldly, I am often the one on overwatch from a rooftop.

[cREbralFIX]

Handguns are for controlling the immediate environment.

Shotguns are for shooting winged critters and a heavier hit at close range (immediate environment).

Carbines are for controlling medium distances (200-300 meters), but are capable of longer ranged shooting in skilled hands. Figure 500 meters effective.

Sniper rifles are for precision shots at any range out to 800-1200 meters or farther.

Additionally, consider the actual ranges involved in many Shadowruns in Seattle. A 200 meter shot is a very long way in an urban environment...and probably quite rare. A carbine is almost perfect for the job because it covers that 500 meter range while providing excellent performance in CQB. Heck...in probably 95% of the runs I've played in, the firefights took place at 25 meters or less. In the rifle world--that's almost touch distance.

It goes back to what previous posters said: "right tool for the right job" and "blend in".

The problem I have with many Shadowrunners is that they're unwilling to ditch their weapons. If they just committed a murder with a weapon, the first place it should go after the run is into the smelter. It is for this reason I consider weapons expendable and simply buy several AK's and a bunch of Ares Predators--use 'em then dump 'em.

[Kerenshara]

The problem I have with many Shadowrunners is that they're unwilling to ditch their weapons. If they just committed a murder with a weapon, the first place it should go after the run is into the smelter. It is for this reason I consider weapons expendable and simply buy several AK's and a bunch of Ares Predators--use 'em then dump 'em.

That can get pricey. Much more useful (especially for pistols, SMGs and ARs) to just get your hands on spare barrels. If you're using electronic firing, there's no brass to trace back. So you're only out the price of the barrels, and the old ones can be destroyed easily enough. But your point is completely valid.

Since I haven't added the last slot of mods to my Desert Strike yet, I am thinking of trying to get a command-self-destruct system if I have to bolt.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Kerenshara's choices and why:

Hold Out: Morrisey Elan with hermetically sealed densiplast rounds; It's tiny, stylish (when that counts), easy to conceal and doesn't show up on mad scanners.
==>When concealability matters

Light Pistol: Light Fire 70 using the "special" silencer with the following mods: Dual Magazines, electronic firing, smartgun link and skinlink; It's still small, the silencer is "same availability as the weapon" which means "R" not "F", the silencer gives an extra -1 to perception, the electronic firing negates the double tap recoil as well as giving another -1 to perception and means I don't have any spent brass to police, and the two mags mean I can go from subsonic ammunition to capsule/DMSO-Narcojet if I need to be non-lethal, nil wireless signal.
==>Standard day-to-day pistol that she keeps in her jacket.

Heavy Pistol: Colt Government Model 2066 with an integral silencer, smartlink, skinlink, melee hardening and extreme environment 1; 14 rounds, nil wireless signature, no recoil, VERY quiet with subsonic ammo, no brass, and tough and reliable as the year is long.
==>When a little more firepower matters, but you don't want to advertise.

Machine pistol: None - if I want auto fire, I go to an SMG.

Submachine Gun: FN P93 Praetor (Electronic Firing) with integral suppressor, skinlink vice flashlight, smartgun, extreme environment 1, melee hardening; 50 rounds, very low recoil, nil wireless signature, VERY quiet with subsonic ammo, no brass, and tough and reliable as the year is long plus automatic fire and better range. [bullpup - we have house rules for concealability]
==>High intensity stealth entry, when autofire and short length will matter.

Assault Rifle: Stock AK97 - completely legal and you can't kill them OR Colt M22A3 - also legal WITH a grenade launcher, despite poor built in features, and modding it kills the "legality" bit... or at least makes it more likely to draw really close inspection.
Assault Rifle: Ares Alpha w/ electronic firing, skinlink, integral suppressor; I think you can see the pattern with my weapons here, right? 40 rounds, grenade launcher, controlable recoil, nil wireless sound or brass. [bullpup - we have house rules for concealability]
==>This is heavy duty bang-bang for her: she's more concerned about not bringing the neighbors running than being subtle for her target.

Shotgun: Enfield AS-7 with smartgun vice laser sight, dual clip, extreme environment 1, melee hardening; It's legal durrable and mean, olus being able to switch between two clips.
==>When she doesn't give a damn about being subtle, quiet or carefull any more.

Sporting Rifle: None

Sniper Rifle: Desert Strike with smartgun, accessory bipod, image mag for the smartgun vice normal scope, melee hardening, integral silencer, and electronic firing; Anybody notice I'm a little obsessive about policing my brass? The GM doesn't want to let me have a Barrett - they're disgusting weapons. Plus the Desert Strike is lighter and smaller.
==>I believe the 20th century jingle went "Reach out and touch some-one!" If we're walking in boldly, I am often the one on overwatch from a rooftop.

All very solid choices... slightly different than mine, but very solid

[Traul]

Sniper Rifle: Desert Strike with (...) accessory bipod

Just for the look, since this baby already comes with all the recoil compensation it needs?

[Kerenshara]

All very solid choices... slightly different than mine, but very solid

Thanks.

Just for the look, since this baby already comes with all the recoil compensation it needs?

Not looks - realism. The real weapon that inspired it is heavy, and a bipod makes long waits for a target worlds easier. or maybe I should say "roleplay-ism" since I take my "job" seriously and make sure the tools reflect that, regardless of the printed RAW. Why use a sniper rifle under 200m when an assault rifle will do? Because a sniper rifle is more acurate and thus the RIGHT TOOL, regardless of game mechanics.

[Falconer]

Karenshara:
Anyone can use caseless ammo... it's an option when you buy the gun. You don't need electronic firing to get it.

Electronic firing is one of the less valuable mods. It gives nice RC.. but it doesn't stack... otherwise only an extra stealth boost IIRC. Generally for the space you're better off w/ another mod or two.

[Kerenshara]

Karenshara:
Anyone can use caseless ammo... it's an option when you buy the gun. You don't need electronic firing to get it.

Electronic firing is one of the less valuable mods. It gives nice RC.. but it doesn't stack... otherwise only an extra stealth boost IIRC. Generally for the space you're better off w/ another mod or two.

Falconer:
Yes, caseless ammo has been an option since at LEAST second ed, but it is REQUIRED with Electronic Firing - that's why I bring it up, because not everybody may have caught that restriction or considered the side-benefit. For your review (and those not familiar with the details of the modification we're discussing):

Arsenal, P.150: Electronic Firing
With this modification, most of the weapon’s moving parts are removed and it fires electronically, meaning that an electrical signal detonates the bullet’s propellant. This provides 1 point of recoil compensation (for restrictions on recoil compensation, see p. 148) and a -1 dice pool modifier to sound-based Perception Tests when trying to locate where the weapon is being fired from. Electronic firing is usually combined with trigger removal (see p. 153) to further reduce the number of moving parts, but this is not mandatory.
The weapon still includes a loading mechanism that moves the bullet into the chamber, and it requires caseless ammunition.

Emphasis mine.

The RC from that modification stacks with almost everything, and in case you missed it, because I pointed it out, everything on that list except the hold out pistol and the automatic shotgun is silenced/suppressed. So for 2 slots and 1000Â¥ I get everything. Oh, and there's the anecdotal information in the fluff description of the Colt Government 2066 which states that the electronic firing makes the piece "extremely reliable". Firearms in the 6th world are already all very reliable as a matter of course. Don't you think it odd that they went out of their way to mention it specifically?

Let's look at the "package" I keep taking: Melee Hardening, Extreme Environment 1, Electronic Firing, Silencing, Skin Link, Smart Link. The first three are about reliability. EF and silencing are -7 to perception together, or -9 with subsonic ammunition. If you're not right next to me, that's -12 dice, and you need two successes to hear the gunshot. Skin Link means I don't have betraying wireless emanations, and my smartlink is nearly un-hackable - unless you can put hands on it, in which case, we're into hand-to-hand, not shooting. It's about reliability, stealth and capability. I consider that a valuable trade-off any day in the shadows. Oh, and as to your RC not stacking observation, would you please be so kind to show me where the RC modifier fails to stack with anything else except a personalized grip? It's the third one down.

Arsenal, P.148: Restrictions To Recoil Compensation
Not all methods of recoil compensation are cumulative in their effect:
• Recoil compensation from an auto-adjusting weight, bipod, foregrip, gyromount, sling, tripod, or underbarrel weight are not cumulative with each other (except that the compensation from a foregrip and sling can be combined into an overall recoil compensation of 2). Recoil compensation from a folding stock, hip pad, rigid stock, shock pad, or sling are not cumulative with each other.
• Recoil compensation from a gas-vent system is not cumulative with that from any other gas-vent system.
• Recoil compensation from electronic firing and personalized grip are not cumulative with each other.
• Recoil compensation from a heavy barrel is cumulative with all other recoil compensations.

I'm not sure what recoil rules you were looking at, but I can't find what you were talking about.

[Falconer]

Okay rephrase... your wording above implied that you needed electronic firing to fire caseless. I just wanted to let you know (in case you didn't, that it was already an option w/o it.

What's the two options for that last point of RC... personalized grip or EF.

As far as mods... you're at -6 w/ an internal suppressor. EF is only -1 more for 2 mod slots, and -1 RC on top.

Personalized grip is -1 RC for 1 mod slot... and w/ melee hardening gives you +1 more dice to parry or pistol whip the guy in melee.

At the end of the day... -11 vs. -12 dice to notice your suppressed shot isn't that much.

The reliability text is 'fluff only'. It has no effect.

Now lets look at the costs and requirements...
EF... 2 slots, 1000 and needs a facility to do it, plus it's regulated
PG... 1 slot, 100 only needs a tool kit, and no legality issues whatsoever

Absolutely no contest on the cost/avail front... for what benefit... only -1 additional (when you admit you're already at -11)... though if you absolutely have to be the quietest badass known to man... yeah works well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay rephrase... your wording above implied that you needed electronic firing to fire caseless. I just wanted to let you know (in case you didn't, that it was already an option w/o it.

What's the two options for that last point of RC... personalized grip or EF.

As far as mods... you're at -6 w/ an internal suppressor. EF is only -1 more for 2 mod slots, and -1 RC on top.

Personalized grip is -1 RC for 1 mod slot... and w/ melee hardening gives you +1 more dice to parry or pistol whip the guy in melee.

At the end of the day... -11 vs. -12 dice to notice your suppressed shot isn't that much.

The reliability text is 'fluff only'. It has no effect.

Now lets look at the costs and requirements...
EF... 2 slots, 1000 and needs a facility to do it, plus it's regulated
PG... 1 slot, 100 only needs a tool kit, and no legality issues whatsoever

Absolutely no contest on the cost/avail front... for what benefit... only -1 additional (when you admit you're already at -11)... though if you absolutely have to be the quietest badass known to man... yeah works well.

Sometimes you just want the EF... it is personal choice...

[Regiment]

<removed due to middle of the night babbling idiocy>

Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[cREbralFIX]

Arsenal, P.150: Electronic Firing
With this modification, most of the weapon’s moving parts are removed and it fires electronically, meaning that an electrical signal detonates the bullet’s propellant. This provides 1 point of recoil compensation (for restrictions on recoil compensation, see p. 148) and a -1 dice pool modifier to sound-based Perception Tests when trying to locate where the weapon is being fired from. Electronic firing is usually combined with trigger removal (see p. 153) to further reduce the number of moving parts, but this is not mandatory.
The weapon still includes a loading mechanism that moves the bullet into the chamber, and it requires caseless ammunition..

How positively...absurd! This was clearly written by people without any knowledge of...OKAY, they're writers.

I guess they think that the sear and hammer contribute greatly to the overall noise generated by a firearm. ::SNICKER::

File this one under the "OPTIONAL" rule heading.

[Dakka Dakka]

That would give it RC 3
and -4 Conceal Modifier

Actually you have a +0 Modifier. +4 for being an SMG -4 for the coating. I would not apply the -4 to tactile searches. And Sound Suppressors are incompatible with Gas Vents.

So everything a Savalette Guardian and Ruger Thunderbolt wish they could be, but can't.

Let's see. Ruger Thundderbolt (with smartlink ¥1150). (heavy pistol) +0(base modifier) -4(chameleon coating)=-4
Now for the 4 other slots:
Gas Vent 3 (2 slots) ¥400
extended clip (1 slot) ¥500
improved range finder ¥1000

Total ¥4050 An Expensive but effective sidearm

What you get:
Truely a heavy pistol in size
Damage 5P AP -1
Smartlinked, no range penalty up to 20m (it's 10, with the weapon above)
5 Points of Recoil compensation so -0 for both in the IP
15 shots (5 bursts)

Personally I would forgo the chameleon coating and take personalized grip (¥100) Firing selection change (¥300) with the GM's permission instead. It is ¥600 cheaper and you can fire FA.

Against Ammunition shortage, use two - one in each hand. Makes two long burst per IP with no penalty. Yay.

If for some reason FA is out, I'd take melee hardening instead. I'm not quite sure if you would get the +1 die in melee of the grip, but more options are always good.

@cREbralFIX: If the supersonic boom and the explosion noise ist removed by subsonic amunition and a sound suppressor, then the hammer and slide are loud. Ever pulled the trigger without a bullet in the chamber?

[DuctShuiTengu]

Regiment: Given that the page reference it includes is for sound suppressors as a modification, I'm not sure whether this still applies when it's a sound suppressor accessory, but...

Characters can have a firearm equipped with a sound suppressor or thermal suppressor (p. 153) and a gas-vent system at the same time; however, the gas-vent system must be turned off in order to receive the benefits from the suppressor.

I also don't like letting chameleon coating improve how easy it is to hide a gun inside your coat or bag (a large firearm hidden under a jacket causes the same size and shape of visible bulge no matter what color it is), but in that matter, the RAW agrees with you.

[cREbralFIX]

@cREbralFIX: If the supersonic boom and the explosion noise ist removed by subsonic amunition and a sound suppressor, then the hammer and slide are loud. Ever pulled the trigger without a bullet in the chamber?

**SIGH**

[Kerenshara]

Had a strange thought... lemme know if I screw it up.

Ingram Warrior 10 (Because it looks like a big pistol)

Damage 5P
Mode SA/BF
RC -
Ammo 30©
Cost 400Y

Mods:
Gas Vent 2 (1 slot)
Smartlink (1 slot)
Chameleon Coating (2 slots) 1000Y
Personalized Grip (1 slot) 100Y

Add in an External Sounds Suppressor

That would give it RC 3
and -4 Conceal Modifier

So now what I have is:
A pistol shaped gun that is SA/BF capable(with RC 3), SMG ranges, and as concealable as a heavy pistol and top it off with a 30 rounds clip.
AND uses automatics (generally viewed as the most versatile firearms skill)

So everything a Savalette Guardian and Ruger Thunderbolt wish they could be, but can't.

And hell, I'm sure you folks could even make this thought even more magnified with hardly any work.

Ok, first, you CAN'T use the silencer at the same time as the gas vent.

Re-read the concealability part: you STARTED at +4 (that's HELPING the other guy spot it) and added a silencer, further complicating the problem. Forget how it "looks" - the UZI LOOKS like a pistol too, and you can even try to shoot the thing one handed. The K&K MP7 can be shot one handed as well. A heavy pistol is concealability 0, not +4. Overall, given the cost of your additions, I don't see the utility. Since the game uses fairly broad definitions for concealability (my current beef with the rules, see above), why not go with the FN P93 Praetor? comes out of the box with -1 RC, add the optional FACTORY electronic firing for -2 RC total. Same concealability. Go with a BUILT IN supressor (which is quieter anyhow) and doesn't affect your concealability. Your clip goes up to 50. Sub out the flashlight for a Smartlink if that's your speed. (Why even bother with the chameleon coating?)

I guess I don't understand what you were getting at, unless you were just assuming that looking like a big pistol made it the same concealability. Even if you said it was the size of a machine pistol, they are +2, not 0.

Now, if I missed something, please tell me. I'd love to see what you really meant.

[Kerenshara]

How positively...absurd! This was clearly written by people without any knowledge of...OKAY, they're writers.

I guess they think that the sear and hammer contribute greatly to the overall noise generated by a firearm. ::SNICKER::

File this one under the "OPTIONAL" rule heading.

Well, if you call that one optional (it is featured off-the-shelf in at least two or three weapons) then everything is optional.

Now, if you'd like to discuss the thing seriously, then let's have a look. The recoil modifier, I have some questions about. I've thought it over (a lot) and decided you can argue it either way. Their emphasis is on the reduced number of moving parts, which would allow you to come up with some interesting recoil solutions. And it's not just the hammer, it's the spent brass being ejected; it's the slide recoiling. Did you know the old "hushpuppy" pistol had a slide lock (that I heard was duplicated on the Mk 23 Mod 0) to eliminate the sound of the slide recoiling and jacking the next round. Let's be clear: a single die penalty against a threshold of 1 for unsupressed gunfire is functionally meaningless. But with an integral silencer/suppressor and subsonic ammunition the total gets up to 9 dice of penalty. That means the effective "threshold" just hit 5 to hear it (base 2 for suppressed gunfire). That last bit can make the difference, pushing the average to a full extra hit.

I personally think the idea of a fully enclosed system with few moving parts compensating for recoil internally (possibly with a electromagneticly moved counterweight of some kind) the weapon is easier to seal against environmental contamination, thus helping to contribute to the "reputation for reliability" mentioned with the Colt Government 2066.

I think what they did was conceive a smart idea and just describe it for us really poorly. Maybe there should have been slightly different benefits, but then again I always thought that about a lot of game system Crunchy Bits^TM. I just don't want to blow off the Devs as incompetent until I can get THEIR side of the feature and it's rationalle. (If you're listening, AnonyDev, we're all ears *grin*)

[Kerenshara]

**SIGH**

Why sigh? They're right. In a quiet room, it's surprisingly noticable. You WERE planning to use the silencer in a relatively quiet area, right? Wasn't that the point? If you're using it on the street with loud trafic, it's a lot less of an issue, and you can skip the feature. Some of us go for the absolutely quietest we can get - say for use in a corporate board room.

[DuctShuiTengu]

Ok, first, you CAN'T use the silencer at the same time as the gas vent.

Re-read the concealability part: you STARTED at +4 (that's HELPING the other guy spot it) and added a silencer, further complicating the problem. Forget how it "looks" - the UZI LOOKS like a pistol too, and you can even try to shoot the thing one handed. The K&K MP7 can be shot one handed as well. A heavy pistol is concealability 0, not +4. Overall, given the cost of your additions, I don't see the utility. Since the game uses fairly broad definitions for concealability (my current beef with the rules, see above), why not go with the FN P93 Praetor? comes out of the box with -1 RC, add the optional FACTORY electronic firing for -2 RC total. Same concealability. Go with a BUILT IN supressor (which is quieter anyhow) and doesn't affect your concealability. Your clip goes up to 50. Sub out the flashlight for a Smartlink if that's your speed. (Why even bother with the chameleon coating?)

I guess I don't understand what you were getting at, unless you were just assuming that looking like a big pistol made it the same concealability. Even if you said it was the size of a machine pistol, they are +2, not 0.

Now, if I missed something, please tell me. I'd love to see what you really meant.

You missed the chameleon coating, which applies a -4 concealability modifier (which I can understand as something to mitigate how obvious it is that you're holding a gun, but the logical implication of the mechanics here is that there's some color scheme for firearms which causes them to take up less space when you're hiding it under a coat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) ). The end result is that the +4 for it being a SMG and the -4 for chameleon coating cancel out, leaving you at +0 (equivalent to a standard heavy pistol). What the point of the statement about it looking like a big pistol is, on the other hand, I don't know.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You missed the chameleon coating, which applies a -4 concealability modifier (which I can understand as something to mitigate how obvious it is that you're holding a gun, but the logical implication of the mechanics here is that there's some color scheme for firearms which causes them to take up less space when you're hiding it under a coat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) ). The end result is that the +4 for it being a SMG and the -4 for chameleon coating cancel out, leaving you at +0 (equivalent to a standard heavy pistol). What the point of the statement about it looking like a big pistol is, on the other hand, I don't know.

I believe that the point was that when concealed under a coat, it does not matter what color the firearm composition is... it is still just as bulky as the regular thing... the chameleon coating would possibly be useful in a tactical situation while it was being employed, as it will match the environment around you (assuming of course that you are also wearing a chameleon suit)... it would be "Visually" more difficult to see when not under cover, but would gain no 'visual" modifiers if hidden underneath a longcoat or other article of clothing... thus chameleon coating would have no practical benefit when worn concealed...

At least, that was how I read it anyway... YMMV

[Falconer]

How positively...absurd! This was clearly written by people without any knowledge of...OKAY, they're writers.

I guess they think that the sear and hammer contribute greatly to the overall noise generated by a firearm. ::SNICKER::

File this one under the "OPTIONAL" rule heading.

This shows you have zero firsthand experience w/ suppressors.

The noise of a semi-auto action working is actually loud enough to be much louder than a well suppressed shot. Not necessarily the click of the hammer hitting the primer. But the sound of the action. (think of the sound a shotgun makes when you rack it, that's nothing except action noise)

This is the reason why many semi-auto real life sniper rifles have a bypass to lock bolt or disable the gas system so they can only be cycled manually just like a bolt action rifle. At military sniper engagement ranges not as much of an issue. But at closer ranges, it is. Some of the older designs based on battle rifles simply use of the rifle grenade gas switch. A bigger reason for doing this at longer ranges is to stop brass from flying when ejected from the gun (which can easily cause sunlight to flash off it, giving away position).

I don't see any issues w/ this rule. Yes the action still needs to move... but it only needs to chamber a new round, it doesn't need to eject a spent casing and insert a new round.

[Kerenshara]

You missed the chameleon coating, which applies a -4 concealability modifier (which I can understand as something to mitigate how obvious it is that you're holding a gun, but the logical implication of the mechanics here is that there's some color scheme for firearms which causes them to take up less space when you're hiding it under a coat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) ). The end result is that the +4 for it being a SMG and the -4 for chameleon coating cancel out, leaving you at +0 (equivalent to a standard heavy pistol). What the point of the statement about it looking like a big pistol is, on the other hand, I don't know.

Oh, that was so nonsensical on the face of it, I totally missed it. Not being rude to the poster, but that would be concealability in open view. How does color affect shape when it's covered? That's the BIG problem with larger weapons, not the ability to spot the slotting thing in the hand.

[Regiment]

Ok, first, you CAN'T use the silencer at the same time as the gas vent.

<snip>

I guess I don't understand what you were getting at, unless you were just assuming that looking like a big pistol made it the same concealability. Even if you said it was the size of a machine pistol, they are +2, not 0.

Now, if I missed something, please tell me. I'd love to see what you really meant.

On silencers: knew that

On the rest:

Heh, I should really try to stop typing in the middle of the night.

I keep seeing how people talk about SMG's for burst/FA.

I see, or used to see, people drooling at the BF pistols.

Now I dig the option, and by the rules, it even makes ya pack more chewing power, and that's great.
But I noticed that lots of SMG's have the ability to fire SA, and have mucho superb ranges on the weapon range table.
This could give someone using an SMG access to most things that a pistol carrier would do, but in most cases even better.
The exception to this, as far as I can see would be concealability.
I'd love to put together an SMG that replaces a pistol as a sidearm, with more options.

Heh, guess I shoulda said that and let you masters get to work, rather than trying to lamely do it myself.
Especially since no matter how I add it up in my head it doesn't make a lick of sense when I try to compare it to real life firearms.

Though on a side note, I do love the idea of giving a thunderhawk SA.

Also, lemme ask a question... what would be the downside of choosing a light pistol with Stick-n-shock over a taser?
I can think of legality, and that's about all I can see as what's lost. Most everything else is upside, right?

[Kerenshara]

Heh, I should really try to stop typing in the middle of the night.

Don't feel bad. I know I do it all the time.

I'd love to put together an SMG that replaces a pistol as a sidearm, with more options.

Heh, guess I shoulda said that and let you masters get to work, rather than trying to lamely do it myself.
Especially since no matter how I add it up in my head it doesn't make a lick of sense when I try to compare it to real life firearms.

Well, that's why I keep going on about the P90 IRL or the SR4 P93. If you want a single weapon to do it all, there's your choice. If you REALLY want to get drekky, and don't care about concealability, mod the thing with dual clips. (OK, knowing how the actual P90 feeds, I can't even BEGIN to conceive how you'd DO it, but...) Then you have 100 rounds on board, with mission selectable firing, SA or FA firing modes, good recoil characteristics (if you go by what it LOOKS like, it ought to have a built-in fore grip, and I'd use a sling as well), and the only REAL drawback is that it's "F". But you can't have everything. After doing a bit of research, BTW, I decided the P93 ought to be 4P/-2 based on what I found. Since it's FA, if I need damage, I can always just open up the tap a bit, and I've got 50 rounds to do it with.

Also, lemme ask a question... what would be the downside of choosing a light pistol with Stick-n-shock over a taser?
I can think of legality, and that's about all I can see as what's lost. Most everything else is upside, right?

The fact that IIRC SnS has a lower damage value than a taser? And the cost of the rounds is a LOT higher than the taser darts? Those two come immediately to mind. But why use a light pistol? Use a hold-out. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it's a good question.

[Regiment]

2 of the tasers have 6S, 1 has 5S (and a larger ammo capacity), and 1 has 7S (with attached wires)

Stick-n-shock is 6S(e), as well.

put it in a light pistol, and it's concealable, has better range than a taser, clip fed, more ammo per clip, and able to put on a silencer.

Just a thought.

If this is the case, I may start including it as a standard sidearm/backup.

Hell, it's easy enough to switch to a clip of apds or ex-ex if it's ALL you can take on you in public, just hide the extra clips well.
Doesn't really compare to a bigger guns in usability, but it makes me re-think my standard big-guns view a bit.

Not to mention the Stick-n-Shock ability to affect spirits. (atleast in most people's view)

[Dakka Dakka]

Functionally there are no downsides to light pistols with SnS. Maybe legally and financially but that's it.

[Dumori]

You forgot the 8S(e) taser in the BBB.

[Mäx]

2 of the tasers have 6S, 1 has 5S (and a larger ammo capacity), and 1 has 7S (with attached wires)

Actually Defiance EX Shocker has 8S and wires don't cause any problems rules wise.
Thats why my Sasha allways carries a pair of those in hidden arm-slides.

[Regiment]

Actually Defiance EX Shocker has 8S <snip>

Oops, I knew that, I even looked it up to make sure... I can only assume that I typo'ed the 7 cuz I was on my laptop at the time... damn big hands

[Kerenshara]

If they really have the same DV, then yeah, I'd have to go with the SnS too for that particular application. Double the comment about swapping out clips mid-'run.