Killing dragons, When dead means dead Options

[Chrysalis]

Greets,

I was thinking of ways to kill a Great Dragon.

Obvious ones are a thor shot and a nuclear weapon. What other ways are there?

What about character assassination instead, such as with Lofwyr?

Any other ideas?

[Jackstand]

Maybe you could feed him a cow full of C-12.

[Adarael]

-Massive amounts of high explosives.
-Less high explosives, used on collapsing a building or something.
-Highly magical beings such as massive spirits, high-magic magicians, adepts with funky abilities.
-Emplaced weapons, especially railguns.
-Missile swarms.
-Bioweapons.
-Nano-dissassemblers.
-Radiation.
-Smashing large, high-speed vehicles (HCSTs & Suborbitals) into them.

There are many ways to do so, but none are exactly easy.

[Chibu]

Specialized magic rituals maybe. One of Rat's novels had something about that I think. You could always just wait another 5000 years and kill them in their sleep.

However, the easiest way would probably be to have another Great Dragon (or two) get into a battle to the death with the one you want dead. This would not be an easy thing to accomplish, but if you could somehow managa to learn the absurd rituals and etiquette of dragons, you might be able to trick them into something.

I'm not sure character assassination would really work. Lowfyr is already known for eating people who upset him. What could you possibly say about him to make him worse?

More practically though, unless this is the focus of the campaign, no one should really be killing Great Dragons. Cannon has dictated that PCs are not good enough to do so. Specifically, I believe Survival of the Fittest mentioned that should any of the PCs attempt to kill a Great Dragon, they will cinematicly fail. I know that this has brought on much "discussion" on these forums before, so take it as you will.

[Screaming Eagle]

Large (7) initiate group of talented (skill 7, magic 7+) ritual casters with a material link, idealy working in an area with a favourable background count, secure from back tracking (some sort of highly warded and/or underground fortress) good Edge stats and a good cross section of foci? Or is this just a different kind of nuke?

Several months of binding force 12 great form spirits to jump the dragon in astral, preferably those with regeneration - this IS just a different kind of nuke.

You may have trouble pulling these off without someone noticing. And is someone notices its a fair bet that a G. Dragon or his agents are paying to know about it.

A *stupid* number of drones running VERY heavy and AP intensive wepons?

Slowly build up radiation poisoning in his food supply?

Seriously, to be sure just hurl huge rocks at them from space. And even then make sure you can't be linked to it. I know the various dragons are not on the "same side" but it is in ALL of their best interests that Great Dragon Slayer be a VERY short lived carrer move.

[Chrysalis]

I thought the Great Dragons were statted in Dragons of the Sixth World? As they say in D&D that which hath been statted can be killed.

This is a thought exercise. Or are all canonical characters beyond killing (although I would be curious to see if Harlequin bleeds rainbow if you slit his throat), even in the theoretical realm of what-if?

[Adarael]

Suggested GD stats are given as an additive bonus to the base dragon stats in SR4. I don't know if any of the named ones are statted out in DotSW.

Nobody's beyond death, in my games. At least not technically. Practically, I don't think any players I've ever had would be able to succeed at killing one, but that's more a matter of 'not enough money or karma to realistically succeed'.

If a Great Dragon gets caught with his proverbial pants down by a well-equipped hit squad that's done careful planning, and is packing the requisite hardware... Well, let the dice fall where they may.

[SincereAgape]

All of the suggestions above fit rather well especially Adarael's suggestions. In "Never Deal With a Dragon." I believe Sam Verner and company were able to kill a regular dragon with a large missile, so if you multiple that by some factor, it would be realistic to kill a great dragon in some way shape or form.

Wanted to chime in about the aftermath of killing one though. First politically, we can all know about the death of Big D and the meteor known as Dunklezahn's will which changed the landscape of the 6th world corporate and political structure. But physically I believe there is this huge large black hole or vortex floating around in the astral world by the Watergate Hotel where he died. Anyone and anything that has entered in or around that area has not returned.

[Screaming Eagle]

Some of what has to be remebered is the stats in the book are "baseline" - the Great Dragons are customized from that, mostly up.
Killable: yes, Easy: F$%^ no.

The write up for Ghost Walker in the Missions felt about right: mechanincally killable. But get real. Several quickened spells at force 24 with a silly number of hits: dispelling such a thing could kill you, let alone hurting the dragon now that you've dropped his force 24 armor spell.
Several force 10 elementals in attendance, just in case someone "jumps him", I'm not sure the radiation thing would even work - a cure toxin or other useable spell would probably be on their rosters. I'm not sure I would want it to work: a Toxic Great Dragon? I'd really rather not.

Dispite its high power level Shadow run is far more "mortal" scaled then D&D (where killing dragons typically has pathetic repercussions - EXP. and riches). Top end PC's in D&D can re-write creation, take a unbelivable and stupid amount of damage and little to no effort is made to make the setting or abilities "believable". Heck I would compare such jugerknots to Great dragons... do you think your 20th level Wizard ™ can take your Shadowrun character?***

*** No one answer that, PLEASE

[DireRadiant]

Killing Dragons....

Context.

Are we talking about a Great Dragon standing on one side of an arena facing X number of opponents who go at each other at the drop of a hat?

or

Are we talking about an almost unimaginably strong and smart experienced magical creature who has survived untold millennia of predation by entire races, powerful bands of immortals, and other creatures of it's own kind, against a group of PC shadowrunners?

Stats vs Stats, we can imagine numbers that might get big enough.

Tactics vs Tactics, there are tactics we can't even begin to imagine that the great Dragons will use. How can the runners counter that?

[Chibu]

I thought the Great Dragons were statted in Dragons of the Sixth World? As they say in D&D that which hath been statted can be killed.

This is a thought exercise. Or are all canonical characters beyond killing (although I would be curious to see if Harlequin bleeds rainbow if you slit his throat), even in the theoretical realm of what-if?

Personally, I wouldn't say that there is anyone (in Shadowrun) who is beyond killing. As I noted, should there be a campaign centered around this, it would be fine. However, it seems that, for the most part, the system is designed to be able to reflect beings a physical and mental scale similar to those of a human. It does not seem to quite reflect things as accurately as we would like. I'll use Strength as an example. The average human (ya know, folk like us) has a strength of 3. in Shadowrun (4th specifically, but the same things with different terms apply to the others as well) strength of 3 is three times as likely to achieve 1 hit on a base strength roll than someone with a strength of 1. However, strength of 1 is supposed to be the minimum that a person can have and still be able to function. The same is true for Strength 6 vs 3. Twice as many hits with 6 than three. These numbers scale linerally when used for tests. But if this is the case, than I personally would have a strength of 6 as I am able to lift and carry at least twice as much as the average person that I know. now, obviously this is not the case as Strength 6 is supposed to be really quite strong, and were I writing up a character sheet for myself I would probably only put a 4 in strength, I'm no superman and I know people who are stronger than me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the system is bad or anything like that. Only that I don't think that it will scale well. Even with a strength of say, 40 (I think I saw listed somewhere but I'm not recalling an exact number so this is a guess), I don't think that it quite shows mechanically the actual difference in strength that the flavor of it implies.

As for the Immortal (that is to say, unaging (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) Elves. Their attributes will generally be able the same as your runners I would assume, but their magical power is supposed to be incredible. For instance in Earthdawn there is a (Circle 15, the highest possible, which I think it can be assumed IE's could have attained) spell for Nethermancers that called something about Army of the Dead (don't feel like looking it up) that brings to 'life' anyone who is burried within some number of miles radius of the caster (Note: this does take either a number of days or weeks), and one that can create a living being. Other Disiplines have similarly powerful magic. This is also not to mention that most of them have fought numerous Horrors, which make your elementals and insect spirits look like silly toys.

And no, all cannon characters are obviously beyond killing as they offed Captain Chaos for no good reason. (Yes I'm still bitter)

As for ways to do it? The other posters responses have been pretty much on it. Mostly, planning and resources. If you hit with enough of well... anyhing. You can probably do it. If you only THINK you have alot of firepower, like Aztechnology back in Denver thought, and attack a Great Dragon (Ghostwalker) you'll lose (like they did).

I think the hardest part of it all would really be to get the dragon/whomever into the trap. It's hard to do a co-ordinated nuke-strike on a dragon as it can fly away or use magic to, say, hurl the nukes away (which incidentally, would be much easier than soaking the damage from them exploding).

P.S. Yes, Harlequin does bleed rainbow. Or clear depending on his mood... and the weather... and the tightness of his shorts.

[cREbralFIX]

<James T. Kirk voice>

PCs. Just. Get. Used. By. Dragons.

</JTK voice>

[Stahlseele]

Orbital Lasers, Thorshots, Tactical Nuclear Weapons, Great Dragon ATGM, Gauss-Rifles, Miniguns, Panther Cannons, Troll-Bows.

[Draco18s]

Make sure that whatever you do, you spend edge, it'll force the dragon to spend edge to negate your use of edge.

[kzt]

There was a long thread on this. Using RAW the magical ritual assassin team ate the GD for lunch.

[hobgoblin]

Some of what has to be remebered is the stats in the book are "baseline" - the Great Dragons are customized from that, mostly up.
Killable: yes, Easy: F$%^ no.

The write up for Ghost Walker in the Missions felt about right: mechanincally killable. But get real. Several quickened spells at force 24 with a silly number of hits: dispelling such a thing could kill you, let alone hurting the dragon now that you've dropped his force 24 armor spell.
Several force 10 elementals in attendance, just in case someone "jumps him", I'm not sure the radiation thing would even work - a cure toxin or other useable spell would probably be on their rosters. I'm not sure I would want it to work: a Toxic Great Dragon? I'd really rather not.

Dispite its high power level Shadow run is far more "mortal" scaled then D&D (where killing dragons typically has pathetic repercussions - EXP. and riches). Top end PC's in D&D can re-write creation, take a unbelivable and stupid amount of damage and little to no effort is made to make the setting or abilities "believable". Heck I would compare such jugerknots to Great dragons... do you think your 20th level Wizard ™ can take your Shadowrun character?***

*** No one answer that, PLEASE

force 24? the drain on that is 15...

that spell must have hurt, no matter what...

[Jaid]

the real trick isn't getting something powerful enough to hurt the dragon. the trick is getting the dragon into a situation where you can even try to hurt it.

but yeah, if you can get the dragon in your sights, you can kill it.

[Octopiii]

I believe Firewing was killed by the German military about 50 years earlier in the timeline (mentioned in Dragons of the 6th world). I can't remember how, though. I'm surprised Aztechnology couldn't take out Ghostwalker considering the resources they have probably dwarf the German military's 50 years ago. It may be that the writers are trying to impress on us how much of a Badass Ghostwalker is, even compared to other GD's.

[Octopiii]

And no, all cannon characters are obviously beyond killing as they offed Captain Chaos for no good reason. (Yes I'm still bitter)

I'm STILL pissed they killed off Dunklezahn. He had more charisma and character than all the Immortal Elves put together, x 5. Can we drop a Tac Nuke on Tir na nOg yet? I hate that place.

[Jaid]

I'm STILL pissed they killed off Dunklezahn. He had more charisma and character than all the Immortal Elves put together, x 5. Can we drop a Tac Nuke on Tir na nOg yet? I hate that place.

i'd rather they didn't. if they drop a nuke on it, that means they're probably going to want to write a sourcebook on it. and that just isn't worth it.

on the other hand, if the government is somehow overthrown and replaced with a bunch of nobodies, that is evidently not enough to get them to let us know anything at all about it except for a chance mention every now and then. so i'm rooting for that to happen.

[Chrysalis]

I'm STILL pissed they killed off Dunklezahn. He had more charisma and character than all the Immortal Elves put together, x 5. Can we drop a Tac Nuke on Tir na nOg yet? I hate that place.

My original concept for the campaign Red Dawn Rising was not a Tac Nuke...

A girl stepped into the Star Chamber, she had a dancer's gait. Everyone looked at her with anger in their faces, some better hid behind a veneer of polite cynicism.

The girl was dressed simply in a dress, her feet were barefoot with a bell on her anklet, "VX is an extremely toxic substance whose only application is in chemical warfare as a nerve agent. As a chemical weapon, it is classified as a weapon of mass destruction by the United Nations in UN Resolution 687. The production and stockpiling of VX was outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993."

She smiled through innocent teeth. "The VX nerve agent is the most well-known of the V-series of nerve agents and is considered an area denial weapon due to its physical properties."

She held out a vial for everyone in the Star Chamber to see. Everyone gasped in unison, a few braver council members started to slowly advance on her. The dragon, Hestaby looked on with curious irritation.

The council members finally push her into a corner, wrestle her to the ground and extract the vial from her grasp. As the council members looked releaved (including Hestaby), as she was about to be carted off into the unwelcoming arms of the security forces, she looked at the rest.

"You do realise that that was the antidote."

Pandemonium was brief and sudden as the first one keeled over, blood coming from every pore. Hestaby was the last, it tried to escape, but went into a fetal position, her eyes rolled up and its lied limp.

The girl picked up the vial only to have it fall apart from the rigor of the dead council member. She shrugged and smiled a luxurious smile at the security cameras and walked out the Star Chamber door.

[toturi]

Are we talking about an almost unimaginably strong and smart experienced magical creature who has survived untold millennia of predation by entire races, powerful bands of immortals, and other creatures of it's own kind, against a group of PC shadowrunners?

Stats vs Stats, we can imagine numbers that might get big enough.

Tactics vs Tactics, there are tactics we can't even begin to imagine that the great Dragons will use. How can the runners counter that?

Tactics vs Tactics? Of course the runners can counter that.

Remember it is still all stats in the end. Does the Great Dragon have the (Whatever) Tactics skill (presumably a Knowledge skill)? If yes, how much? Does the runners have any similar skills? If yes, how much? Is anyone using Edge? Is the skill Logic or Intuition? Is anyone defaulting? Opposed rolls, please.

[Maelstrome]

Tactics vs Tactics? Of course the runners can counter that.

Remember it is still all stats in the end. Does the Great Dragon have the (Whatever) Tactics skill (presumably a Knowledge skill)? If yes, how much? Does the runners have any similar skills? If yes, how much? Is anyone using Edge? Is the skill Logic or Intuition? Is anyone defaulting? Opposed rolls, please.

not following you on this. how do you boil down tactics to an opposed roll? tactics are not the sum of your abilities they are how you use them.

when you gm do you give your players tactical information based on a roll they make or do they have to think for themselves? are your npcs tactics completely governed by a dice roll?

[The Jake]

Greets,

I was thinking of ways to kill a Great Dragon.

Obvious ones are a thor shot and a nuclear weapon. What other ways are there?

What about character assassination instead, such as with Lofwyr?

Any other ideas?

I had this conversation with one of my other PCs the other day. He's from that "other" game, where he's used to killing just about anything and everything and ignoring the fact there are times he should run away. The PCs are starting to net a few enemies from Saeder-Krupp and he asked why don't they just find this dragon and assassinate him.

I basically said this is Shadowrun, not D&D. Sure, dragons are killable. Great Dragons are another beast entirely (no pun intended). Basically they are ~7,000+ years old, Magic scores in double digits - similar Initiate Grades and stacked spells/focii up the wazoo. I then regalled him with the stories of Ghostwalker taking on the entire Aztlan army in Denver and destroying the teocalli.

Sure dragons die. Even Greats die during the history of the game (Lofwyr killed Nachtmeister, Dunkelzahn commiting suicide) but as for PCs ever killing a Great Dragon, I'm sorry I just don't see it happening. I compare the Great Dragons to Antediluvians or Methuselahs from Vampire the Masquerade. If you ever had to face one in combat, its over - instantly.

The old axiom in roleplaying is "if it has stats, it can be killed." For this reason, there are some NPCs I will not stat. Lofwyr is one of them. To put this in perspective. Mr. Darke in Threats was statted out. Lofwyr was not. Now if the Harbinger of The Enemy has a full write up and the most powerful of all the Great Dragons is not, then surely that says enough...

- J.

PS: I said it before, I'll say it again - if your PCs kill a Great Dragon then you fail at Shadowrun.

[The Jake]

Orbital Lasers, Thorshots, Tactical Nuclear Weapons, Great Dragon ATGM, Gauss-Rifles, Miniguns, Panther Cannons, Troll-Bows.

The entire Aztlan army would have used a good portion of that list and even they couldn't kill Ghostwalker.

As for the orbital lasers, thor shots and tac nukes - you really think a dragon would sit there long enough for it to work? Even then, I'm not so certain.... but those would be the only man-made weapons I can think of that would realistically have a chance.

- J.