A question on Dragons, Natural Weapon Power does not make sense Options

[Stormdrake]

Was reading Running Wild and the dragon section does not have stats which prompted me to look in the main rule book. Now I have no plans to ever use a dragon as anything but a plot device but, under powers they are listed as having a natural weapon (dmg 10P, Reach +2). Now a typical human can punch some one for Str/2S, a non great, western dragon with a strength of 40 should be doing something like 20S before figuring in the power of natural weapon. I figure at the minimum, the damage should be turned to physical and possibly added to as dragons have claws and all those sharp teeth. Was just wondering if this is a mistake or the product of something I am not aware of.

[Prime Mover]

I always assumed it was to stop them from being one hit kill machines.......like the adapt in our group.

[Muspellsheimr]

It has something that has bothered me for a while, but I have not changed it yet primarily due to the 'one-hit kill' idea.

Now, however, we have the Juggernaut dealing Str/2 + 3P with its claws, for a total of 24P. I think it's time to fix the Dragons.

[Stormdrake]

It's mostly a point of consistency for me rather than any kind of serious need in game. Besides, if a group is dumb or unfortunate enough to get into a physical conflict with a Dragon it should be a one-hit kill machine.

[Screaming Eagle]

curious... I hadn't noticed but then its not like I ever use dragons all upfront and personal those rare times they appear. *Looks closer* Well the only GOOD reason I can see is so that dragons don't one hit kill other dragons. A good reason. One hit killing PC's never looked like a problem from my side of the table (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I might do the (half str) P and just up dragons hardened armor a few more points (I've already mod'ed it up a bit at my table, not that it is likely to ever come up)... hehehe YA!

[Ragewind]

It's mostly a point of consistency for me rather than any kind of serious need in game. Besides, if a group is dumb or unfortunate enough to get into a physical conflict with a Dragon it should be a one-hit kill machine.

Dragons aren't that cool

They can be killed the same as any other critter

[Jaid]

Dragons aren't that cool

They can be killed the same as any other critter

that doesn't mean that a dragon shouldn't be able to kill you with a single bite. in fact, it makes an awful lot of sense to me that a dragon absolutely would kill people with a single bite attack. we are talking about a creature with truly ridiculous strength.

[Machiavelli]

Dragons aren't that cool

They can be killed the same as any other critter

But they are QUITE cool and QUITE hard to kill.^^

[Heath Robinson]

But they are QUITE cool and QUITE hard to kill.^^

An Aztechnology Striker and a few points of Edge. I've seen it done before.

[knasser]

that doesn't mean that a dragon shouldn't be able to kill you with a single bite. in fact, it makes an awful lot of sense to me that a dragon absolutely would kill people with a single bite attack. we are talking about a creature with truly ridiculous strength.

But they can kill someone with a single bite. 10P damage plus whatever net hits they gain is quite enough to put any normal person into instant death. Just because it doesn't instant-kill a troll with titanium bone-lacing whose wearing body armour doesn't mean its underpowered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm with Ragewind on this - there's too much dragon-worship goes on around here. And certain devs are guilty of it too. Dragons are tough, dragons are smart, but they still obey the laws of physics (well, except for the flying and the breath weapons, but that's not the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

If the consistency with the Str/2 is a problem, consider that there probably should be a limit to how far this goes. The power of an unarmed attack isn't merely a factor of physical strength, but also of the speed with which the blow can be delivered. When someone is punched, they are moved backwards by it in response (unless against a wall or somesuch). The faster you can hit them, the more power you can transfer in the blow, but without increasing the speed of the blow, you eventually reach a cap on how much damage you can do. Imagine a truck reversing at 5mph vs. a cricket ball slamming into you. Now the truck might have a Str of 40 and the cricket ball a Str of 5, but the former can't transfer all that strength unless you're pressed between it and a wall or similar. Maybe dragons capped at 10P just represents these sorts of upper limits. The inconsistency may be less an argument for raising dragon damage, and more one for capping the base damage of unarmed blows.

My 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

K.

[HappyDaze]

The big problem with creatures with Strength of 20+ is that it quickly gets silly to just keep increasing the damage. Two dragons fighting it out with teeth and claws should be equivalent to two dogs tearing at one another. By the way the rules are written, that's not the case - the damage is just too high.

I'd argue that the dragon should only have a 20 Strength to better fit it's damage value. Likewise, many other creatures need their Strength scores reduced. However, there should be a size-based modifier that increases lifting/carrying capacity based on the creatures' sizes. Too bad RW is already out...

[Machiavelli]

An Aztechnology Striker and a few points of Edge. I've seen it done before.

I call this a "lame dragon".^^ You won´t surprise a great dragon with it, maybe a jounger one.

[Glyph]

While I agree that there is too much "dragon worship" around here, a great dragon would not be vulnerable to the "Aztechnology Striker and a few points of Edge" tactic, because their twist fate power would negate the Edge factor in the equation. Still, I wouldn't call a dragon "lame" just because it can be killed with frakking heavy artillery!

[Machiavelli]

While I agree that there is too much "dragon worship" around here, a great dragon would not be vulnerable to the "Aztechnology Striker and a few points of Edge" tactic, because their twist fate power would negate the Edge factor in the equation. Still, I wouldn't call a dragon "lame" just because it can be killed with frakking heavy artillery!

No, i would call it lame, because it let´s himself be killed with heavy artillery.^^ Usually they are either too smart or too well prepared (magic, magic, magic) to end up as cannon fodder for such weapon-systems. If you would ignore the magic, EVERY dragon is vulnerabe. In this case you wouldn´t even need anti-tank-helicopters.

[Heath Robinson]

I call this a "lame dragon".^^ You won´t surprise a great dragon with it, maybe a jounger one.

"No true scotsman". And moving goalposts.

You were talking about Dragons, not Great Dragons. The Dragon in question was not particularly humile and though that it could snack on Smiley the Street Sam. Smily managed to make it into the sewers, which just pissed off the Dragon, who tried to follow him down there. At this point the GM turned to Smiley's player and said "So I assume you're running off, then?"
"No, I'm going to shoot it."
"What, with your Alpha? It's got armour."
"Nah. With my Aztechnology Striker."
"I forgot you had that."

Hubris. When you're kowtowed to and can kill pretty much everyone, you tend to get it.

[Jaid]

dragons being targeted by missile launchers while in tight, confined spaces where they can't dodge and chunky salsa rules kick in is not exactly the standard scenario.

[Adarael]

There's a merc troll in my current game with Light Milspec armor, 0.15 essence, and an Ares Thunderstruck.

If that boy doesn't go dragon hunting before the game is over, I'm gonna cry.

[Stahlseele]

Heh, we killed a feathered serpent once using an ares great dragon in sR3 . . we felt it to be fitting from the name ^^
Dragons AIN'T Tanks . . they will die when being shot with Anti Tank Weaponry just as most Tanks should *grins*

[Mäx]

But they can kill someone with a single bite. 10P damage plus whatever net hits they gain is quite enough to put any normal person into instant death. Just because it doesn't instant-kill a troll with titanium bone-lacing whose wearing body armour doesn't mean its underpowered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm with Ragewind on this - there's too much dragon-worship goes on around here. And certain devs are guilty of it too. Dragons are tough, dragons are smart, but they still obey the laws of physics (well, except for the flying and the breath weapons, but that's not the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

This would maybe be a valid point, but as has been pointed out a Juggernaut does 24P damage with its claws, locigally dragons should also.

[HappyDaze]

This would maybe be a valid point, but as has been pointed out a Juggernaut does 24P damage with its claws, locigally dragons should also.

Perhaps it's the Juggernaut that needs errata in this case?

[Kronk2]

Just because they have pointy teeth and claws doesn't mean the won;t use a sword if they have one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Mäx]

Perhaps it's the Juggernaut that needs errata in this case?

Juggernaut follws normal melee damage rules must more then the dragon does, so i have to dissagree.

[Stormdrake]

The rules for damage from a physical punch (or claw)are pretty consistant (Str/2) Stun or Physical. Putting aside individuals claims of dragon worship, I and my players would like consistancy from the RAW. So for me at least, I will change the dragons Natural Weapons to reflect the RAW for calculating such damage. Again, outside of being a face I have no real plans of ever having the players square off against a dragon.

[hobgoblin]

bah, what dragon would use claws, when a spirit can sit on the pesky humanoid all day long? (engulf)

[Ravor]

I have to agree, the damage for dragons is off, BUT I agree with the poster who wanted to lower the Str Ratings as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)