[Shadowrun 1e] A trip down Memory Lane Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Jeffrey Webb]

Last Friday I ran a simple snatch-and-grab 'run with some of my players using Shadowrun First Edition just because I hadn't run it since three of the players (16 years of age) were born. We had two Shadowrun vets from the SR1 days plus me, and I had spent the week re-learning the SR1 rules for this event. Now, my memory was not clear as to what was 'wrong' with the SR1 rules from way back when - since we had quite a bit of fun with them back in the proverbial Day™ when SR first came out. It was kind of like getting a new edition of the rules, since I was re-learning things I'd forgotten all those years ago in preparation for this game.

THE BOOKS

I find my love for Shadowrun rekindled by re-reading the original core books. All of the elements that made me fall in love with the Shadowrun universe were here. My views on Cyberpunk are that to remain true to the original Cyberpunk literary movement as it applies to gaming, it is the future as seen from the 80s. My tagline for the SR campaign I'm working on is actually "20 minutes into the future... of 1987". I loved the artwork, the look of the books, the decker commentary on all the sourcebooks, the Native American influences that seem to be forgotten in the newer editions, the pervasiveness of Japanese influence that has also lost its bite. There is something that can almost be called "quaint" about the SR1 books themselves when compared to the modern books, but it just so happens to be exactly what I'm looking for in an RPG.

THE RULES

Here are my observations on The Rules. About 70% of it is identical to SR2, which is my default Shadowrun engine. I feel that SR3 got too fiddly and SR4, while posessing the quickest and cleanest rules set has misplaced the feel of the setting entirely. The dice pools are markedly different from SR2, with no combat pool to speak of in an offensive manner, and two seperate defense pools for melee and ranged combat. I actually like this quite a bit as it tended to make the actual combat skills even more important since you couldn't just dump CP dice into them on attacks.

Variable staging numbers were kinda fun to play with again. While they did add a level of complexity (which is why they were removed IIRC) it did make the choice of weapons and attacks a little more interesting as it made some weapons quite a bit more difficult to resist damage from. One of the most interesting things about weapon damages in this older edition was something that must have been recognized by players and GMs back then that I don't recall having a particular problem with before - but it stuck out to me now. The average firearms in the hands of the PCs weren't doing much at all against opponents with any kind of armor. Armor, under 1e, gave "free successes" versus weapons fire. This means a Ballistic rating of 3 will automatically stage down most heavy pistols one damage level, and weapons with a lower staging are mostly useless without some real skill dice backing them up. Even the Ares MP LMG one character was using wasn't as destructive as one would thing against a moderately armored corporate security team.

Magic. Oh, magic. We had a Combat Mage archetype in the team, and the Aztechs had one on their side as well. I'll tell you this, the spellworms were a whole hell of a lot scarier in First Edition. All combat spells started with a base damage of L, with their staging determined by the type of spell. Now, to me this was kind of intuitive, but not really. See, I believe the original intent of the variable staging numbers was that higher numbers meant an attack was harder to soak. This is true. But it is also true that it makes it harder to stage the damage UP... resulting in more damage being done in this game with the lightweight spells like Mana Bolt and Power Bolt than with the Big Ass spells. Why? Our mage hit a Troll Street Samurai archetype on the other team with a Manabolt. The target number was his willpower, which was 1. Enough successes were rolled to stage the damage up to D+3. His one die of willpower and six dice of spell defense from his own team's mage weren't enough versus a TN of 5 to drop it back past D. Thus the troll bought it from a single manabolt. Dead. Graveyard dead. Unfortunately the next round the Aztech mage did the same thing to our team's troll. Low willpower was DEATH in SR1 much more than in later editions. And drain was a lot simpler to soak, too. The mage casted every single action during combat, and never took so much as a single box of drain due to a good willpower and some magic pool dice. Oh, and sticking mostly to manabolts and powerbolts.

Initiative was fun, with the wonkier numbers for multiple actions. Doing it by 10s is easier, and the passes system in 4e allows everyone to act before second and third actions come up, but damn I missed the combat monsters being monsters and acting a coupla times before the slower characters could. It wasn't as fair, and wasn't as fun for the slower PCs, but it really did underscore how inhumanly fast wired and spelljacked characters were.

All in all, I can sort of see myself playing 1e again a coupla more times just to see if any more cracks appear in the Old Game. I, myself, had a blast playing. It really took me back. And with a new crop of Shadowrun players who haven't been through ANY of the modules or read any of the later game books, hell I can whip out the UB on them. Bugs are bad, mmkay? Or any number of old modules I own.

It might sound crazy, it might even be heresy... but we enjoyed these old games back in the day. They were flawed, they were broken, but at the time we didn't care. We rolled dice, we ate pizza, we had fun. And I think that can be done again, as a serious campaign or just for nostalgia and giggles. I love showing these young whippernsappers in our game club how we rolled back before they were born. And the wierd thing is - they love it, too.

[Synner667]

Mmmm

The wonder of cyberpunk, with magic !!

[3278]

I find my love for Shadowrun rekindled by re-reading the original core books.

That's what I do when I'm looking for inspiration, or edification, or trying to re-grasp the feel of Shadowrun. These books certainly had their flaws - some of them debateable; Shadowtalk, one-weapon-per-page, setting information so detailed it gave more information than a Michelin guide, these were all love-or-hate things - but they also had personality, atmosphere. The fact that the rules often made little sense was okay, because the rules didn't matter as much as the feel of the world. And for us, fixing silly rules was vastly easier than fixing a broken setting.

...the Native American influences that seem to be forgotten in the newer editions, the pervasiveness of Japanese influence that has also lost its bite.

Sometimes I feel like the new generation of writers are ashamed of some of the...stranger choices made during the game's development. The balkanization of the US and Canada into various nations, many of them native, is something it seems isn't embraced as particularly likely, which is ironic, since in 1989, nothing like that had happened on our continent, whereas today we have 25,000 Inuit living in their own territory of Canada.

Here are my observations on The Rules. About 70% of it is identical to SR2, which is my default Shadowrun engine. I feel that SR3 got too fiddly and SR4, while posessing the quickest and cleanest rules set has misplaced the feel of the setting entirely.

I have absolutely nothing against the current SR writers, and in fact most of them are my friends, but when you get down to it, the original developers of Shadowrun were the sort of people who wrote their own roleplaying game based on their own tastes, and did it well enough that many of us are still playing it 20 years later; that's very different from the sort of person who writes for a 20-year-old game. Not necessarily better or worse, but certainly the original developers were much more inventive, much more creative, much more interested in creating something new than enhancing something old. It's like the difference between the Beatles and a Beatles cover band; both may play the songs equally well, and in fact the cover band may even play it better, but there's something about the sort of person who creates something from nothing.

That said, much of the technical portion of the game is so very much better than it was back in the day. Tastes in artwork vary, and SR's has always been spotty, but much of the SR4a artwork is astonishingly good. The layout is tuned until it purrs, and while yes, a lot of that is "developments in page design and in computer programs to do page design," a lot of it is simple brilliance. The rules, while sometimes still bewilderingly convoluted or unreasonable, are systemic, well-thought-out, and the new basic mechanic is actually really fairly clever.

But when my group talks about prime runners, or noteable personalities from the game, or fictional events in the universe, it's all Dunkelzahn and Maria Mercurial and Hatchetman and Damien Knight and Bug City and Alamais getting a THOR round to the head. ["It's okay, he's fine!"] They never mention...uh, who are the noteable personalities in SR4 again?

Variable staging numbers were kinda fun to play with again.

That was one of those things we didn't think much of at the time, but were so happy was changed in SR2. "Yeah, I got four successes! Oh, wait, that's not enough to stage up the damage. Well, at least it'll be harder to resist!" Making the staging simply always be 2 was...convenient.

Armor, under 1e, gave "free successes" versus weapons fire.

And so did adept powers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) What a crazy nightmare that became.

All in all, I can sort of see myself playing 1e again a coupla more times just to see if any more cracks appear in the Old Game. I, myself, had a blast playing. It really took me back.

I've been giving some pretty serious thought to running an SR2 game, myself. You can't open a page of these old setting books without finding a plot hook, and most of these pages have handfuls of them. I could run an entire campaign off a few pages of one of the NAN books, and it'd be good. Damn good. In this, SR2 [and 3, to a lesser degree] shares with Earthdawn, about which I always say, "I could GM for the rest of my natural life on just what they printed in the first couple of years."

Early SR is what cemented my ideal that setting matters vastly more than system, that character matters vastly more than the numbers on the character sheet. SR4, though technically brilliant, doesn't do that for me. In some ways, it was the flaws of old SR that gave the game its personality [and utter lack of profitability], and eliminating those flaws has created a brilliant but lifeless set of rules for dice rolling.

But I'm being an old man again. For those who enjoy SR4, for those who prefer it: good on you! We may differ in our opinions, but you're having fun at your table, and I'll be doing my best to have fun at mine. Have fun! Play Shadowrun!

[Malachi]

THE BOOKS

I find my love for Shadowrun rekindled by re-reading the original core books. All of the elements that made me fall in love with the Shadowrun universe were here. My views on Cyberpunk are that to remain true to the original Cyberpunk literary movement as it applies to gaming, it is the future as seen from the 80s. My tagline for the SR campaign I'm working on is actually "20 minutes into the future... of 1987". I loved the artwork, the look of the books, the decker commentary on all the sourcebooks, the Native American influences that seem to be forgotten in the newer editions, the pervasiveness of Japanese influence that has also lost its bite. There is something that can almost be called "quaint" about the SR1 books themselves when compared to the modern books, but it just so happens to be exactly what I'm looking for in an RPG.

Can you point to some specific elements that you think are missing from the newer sourcebooks that would bring back some of the "feel" from the old ones? For instance, what specific aspects of the book showed Native American or Japanese influence that you think is missing now?

I picked up SR right at the end of 2nd Edition, with the vast bulk of my time spent in 3rd Edition, so to me the game hasn't changed a great deal. I'm curious what some of the older players think has gone missing.

[BlueMax]

Malachi,

I think there is less of everything when it comes to fleshing out the universe.

As for where the details in question went missing
Art. The fashion in 2050 had a heavy native influence.
Archetypes. Hello, Tribesman? Tribal Warrior(Archetypes at back of Sprawl Sites)
Contacts. Tribals
References. I remember hearing about the Wildcats far more frequently

Stretching but hey every bit counts
Rules -- Various Etiquette skills, and if I recall some characters had the tribal variant.


In a rush but thats what I have floating at the front of my mind,

BlueMax

[Malachi]

Thanks BlueMax... here's a follow-up question.

Assuming that we can't go back and add "Tribesman" as an archetype to the core rulebook, how could CGL add more of that "old school" feel to future books?

[3278]

Assuming that we can't go back and add "Tribesman" as an archetype to the core rulebook, how could CGL add more of that "old school" feel to future books?

This is a laudable goal, but a note of caution: in the same way you can't possibly ask a band with a whole new lineup to make an album that sounds like the band's original material, you're not going to get the "old school" feel back in Shadowrun with new-school writers. Sure, we could devote more pages to metaplot and setting information, start talking more about the NANs and use more Japan-centric cultural references, but that's just going to be the cover band playing old classics. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, I just wanted to inject a note of temperance into your gratifying constructiveness.

[Jeffrey Webb]

Well...

Showing some love with a sourcebook, even PDF only, for the NAN or tribes might be a good start. Such things haven't been published since 1e, IIRC. The art and layout of the old books had a Aztec / Tribal look to it quite a bit of the time. A major plot point in how the world became awakened had to do with the revival of Native American magics.

Aside from the use of Nuyen, the Japanese influence has been sidelined quite a bit. Imperial Japan basically owned the California Free State. Most of the AAA multinats were represented as massive Japanese Zaibatsu. Most of that is downplayed these days.

[Malachi]

Well...

Showing some love with a sourcebook, even PDF only, for the NAN or tribes might be a good start. Such things haven't been published since 1e, IIRC. The art and layout of the old books had a Aztec / Tribal look to it quite a bit of the time. A major plot point in how the world became awakened had to do with the revival of Native American magics.

Ok, sure. I definitely missed the Native American influence in the Seattle writeup in Runner Havens, but apart from that I don't know where else CGL couldn't put more tribal influence. I kind of think that those Core supplements should be kind of "generic." There wasn't a whole lot of Native American influence in the writing of LA, despite it actually being in NAN territory.

The biggest reason I want this discussion to happen now is because I think the opportunity for greater emphasis on NAN influence could happen in future sourcebooks, and I know CGL writers watch the boards.

Aside from the use of Nuyen, the Japanese influence has been sidelined quite a bit. Imperial Japan basically owned the California Free State. Most of the AAA multinats were represented as massive Japanese Zaibatsu. Most of that is downplayed these days.

Some of this, though, has been from the evolution of the metaplot. Back in the day, 5 of the "big 8" were Japanese: Fuchi, Renraku, Mitsuhama, Shiawase, and Yamatetsu. Then, through metaplot Fuchi dies with part become Novatech to become NeoNET, and Yamatetsu moves to Russia and becomes Evo. Now only 3 out of the "big 10" are Japanese. Also, Japanese control over CFS was withdrawn through metaplot as well.

So, there are metaplot reasons for the "de-emphasizing" the Japanese corporate influence, but maybe your saying you don't like the metaplot-driven changes? That's valid. In the interests of being constructive, what are some ways that you think Japanese cultural and corporate influence can continue to be "emphasized" given the metaplot changes that have taken place in the world?

[Jeffrey Webb]

So, there are metaplot reasons for the "de-emphasizing" the Japanese corporate influence, but maybe your saying you don't like the metaplot-driven changes? That's valid. In the interests of being constructive, what are some ways that you think Japanese cultural and corporate influence can continue to be "emphasized" given the metaplot changes that have taken place in the world?

Hmmm... I guess this is where I clarify my position.

Metaplot doesn't bother me in and of itself. The changes to the storyline are arguably necessary to a game line that will continue to sell over time. That said, when a game is established to be X, and later becomes Y through changes in authors or advancement of metaplot, for many of the original players it is no longer X, the game they came to love.

To illustrate, Shadowrun to me has Deckers. They have a deck. They jack into the matrix. This is part of the genre. In 4e, we have wireless matrix, we have hackers, we no longer require decks and hacking can be done by he who affords the best gear, Computer skill notwithstanding. This is more than metaplot moving forward, this is a significant change to the feel of the genre. Now, one can say that it is unrealistic for the game to require jacking in, as the world is going wireless as we speak. Is it? Yes, I can now stream video to my phone - and it's nifty. But many wireless devices are still at a bandwidth premium. It could easily have been said that most applications of the matrix coul indeed go wireless, but full-on simsense decking still required jacking in due to the massive amount of bandwidth a human simsense signal required. There you go, the tech moves up, but the assumptions from the original game stay the same. Deckers are still deckers.

The Japanese influence, likewise, is part of the Cyberpunk genre to me as viewed through the Shadowrun lens. So is the inclusion of Native American influences. While the world moves forward, and the metaplot changes one must ask oneself if it was really necessary to minimalize or even ignor those influences to move the story forward. Shadowrun, as originally written, used a lot of these elements. Without them, is it still Shadowrun? It has become increasingly less and less 'cyberpunk' and more 'transhuman' in its presentation and outlook.

The 2050s should still be a valid mode for play, and a lot of the 'fluff' can be added by the GM and through the use of older sourcebooks and material. Some things, like Decking, would require quite a bit of conversion to work 'right' under 4e. IE - Okay, in 2e I needed three successes at a TN of 8 to pass this hacking test. How does that even equate mathematically in a system where TN is static and only threshold changes?

So part of my beef is changes made, but not because I feel they shouldn't be made - they probably need to in order to keep the game line fresh. BUT - that said, don't abandon your old school players by changing the world so much it's no longer recognizable as the one they originally fell in love with.

Take Battletech, for instance. Those of us who started playing in the 80s remember Techno-Feudal knights and Max Max technological backslide in machines that belonged to their grandfathers. Start in the 90s and you get Brave-New-Wordl Neo-Barbarians versus the still feudal, but no longer so knightly soldiers in mass-produced machines of war. Start recently, and you're looking at a Holy War complete with nukes and cries of "Jihad!". Players in the different eras tend to argue mightily which is the 'true' game, and the real vision of the universe. To try to alleviate that, the eras of play have been created and books support the various eras for play.

I'd love to see a book that focuses on the 50s using the 4e rules set. Give official rules for decking it old school, deepder discussion of Japan before their megacorps start to fall, make the NAN formidable again and provide some story hooks for NAN characters, that sort of thing. Talk about The Big D's first appearances, and his Holly Brighton interview. About Concrete Dreams and maybe include some Rocker-specific stuff since it fits more into that older style of Cyberpunk... I'd pay $50 for a hardcover setting book to pair with my Shadowrun 4e book. Hell, I'd pay another $50 for a hardcover reprint of classic modules updated to 4e mechanics. Paranoia did it, why not Shadowrun? Missing Blood, Harlequin, Queen Euphoria, lots of classic modules could be given a facelift and presented to a new generation of Shadowrunners as well as generate some revenue again for TPTB.

I guess it's not about rules, it's about feel. What Shadowrun is to me. And how it's no longer that in the new books, but could be again...

[PaulK]

For me, I liked the old SR1-SR3 explicitives. "Frag" and "drek" (while understood by all) were benign enough that I wouldn't mind letting my kids read them (when they get a bit older). With the explicit use of f* and the like, I think there is a disincentive to include younger kids who might otherwise enjoy the game.

Metaplot-wise, I always enjoyed the ED tie-ins. I really miss them as well as the "open mike" style comments from Shadowlands. That said, time marches on. I enjoy the new books too, but I'll always hold my 1st edition books in a special place in my heart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

/Paul

[Prime Mover]

I loved 1st edition but having said that I have to put things in perspective for myself and my players. If you lived in the 1950's the 1970's "felt" different. Times they are a changing. It's more then just edition metaplot, time marches on. Thats how I play the current setting. That old "feel" is nostalgia for the old timers, but my newer runners know that time waits for no man/troll/elf/etc.... The entertainment, political and technological fronts have changed drastically and I think are reflected in the 4th edition setting.

[Malachi]

I'd love to see a book that focuses on the 50s using the 4e rules set. Give official rules for decking it old school, deepder discussion of Japan before their megacorps start to fall, make the NAN formidable again and provide some story hooks for NAN characters, that sort of thing. Talk about The Big D's first appearances, and his Holly Brighton interview. About Concrete Dreams and maybe include some Rocker-specific stuff since it fits more into that older style of Cyberpunk... I'd pay $50 for a hardcover setting book to pair with my Shadowrun 4e book. Hell, I'd pay another $50 for a hardcover reprint of classic modules updated to 4e mechanics. Paranoia did it, why not Shadowrun? Missing Blood, Harlequin, Queen Euphoria, lots of classic modules could be given a facelift and presented to a new generation of Shadowrunners as well as generate some revenue again for TPTB.

I guess it's not about rules, it's about feel. What Shadowrun is to me. And how it's no longer that in the new books, but could be again...

I don't know if that's going to happen. It's possible they might "up-convert" some old adventures for release as purely digital products, but I think the appeal would really be hit and miss.

So, setting aside the reprinting of old books or "resetting" the timeline back to the 2050's, assuming that they're not going to change what has already been done/written, what are some other ways that you think CGL could bring back the "feel" of Shadowrun that you're missing in future products?

[Jeffrey Webb]

I loved 1st edition but having said that I have to put things in perspective for myself and my players. If you lived in the 1950's the 1970's "felt" different. Times they are a changing. It's more then just edition metaplot, time marches on. Thats how I play the current setting. That old "feel" is nostalgia for the old timers, but my newer runners know that time waits for no man/troll/elf/etc.... The entertainment, political and technological fronts have changed drastically and I think are reflected in the 4th edition setting.

While this is very true, do we not play roleplaying games set explicitly in particular time periods? Old West, WWII, Victorian, etc? This would be like wanting to run a Captain Kirk-era game as opposed to a Picard one. Same universe, different flavor and tech level. The arrival of TNG did not render pointless the desire to play in TOS. Same here.

I don't think the core books should be re-written or the current timeline invalidated, not at all. But a sourcebook about the older feel of shadowrun would be just a valid a product as "GURPS Old West" or "Victorian Age Vampire".

[flowswithdrek]

There’s no doubt that there has been a change in feel to the cyberpunkyness that is shadowrun, and I also feel that some of that could be rekindled, the native American nations could use a face lift to sr4 for starters. Don’t get me wrong, some of the metaplot has been amazing, the art is fantastic and the 20 anniversary edition is just great, and I prefer the SR4 game mechanics, but some things just seem to be not quite cyberpunk.

It doesn’t matter what edition game I run, there is always one book that always appears on our gaming table, The Street Samurai Catalogue. My players just love to look through it and have been doing so since it came out.

[BlueMax]

I loved 1st edition but having said that I have to put things in perspective for myself and my players. If you lived in the 1950's the 1970's "felt" different. Times they are a changing. It's more then just edition metaplot, time marches on. Thats how I play the current setting. That old "feel" is nostalgia for the old timers, but my newer runners know that time waits for no man/troll/elf/etc.... The entertainment, political and technological fronts have changed drastically and I think are reflected in the 4th edition setting.

I don't buy it.
The entertainment and political changes we have seen as Shadowrun moved on have more to do with Marketing, and the goals of the developers, then anything to do with the tides of time.

The game was made more global, and the cost was clarity of vision in what was a future setting in the Pacific Northwest. Yes, there were metaplot changes made to accommodate the desired marking changes. The game was made more Politically Correct and less fantastic. The second is sometimes mislabeled "more realistic". These changes have also changed the color of the game. Imagine being Politically Correct in 4+ languages and many more countries, that would bland things up certainly.

That said, I do play SR4A as it presents the 2070s and in a game set in 2050. Both are fun and enjoyable.


BlueMax

[Iduno]

I'd love to see a book that focuses on the 50s using the 4e rules set. Give official rules for decking it old school, deepder discussion of Japan before their megacorps start to fall, make the NAN formidable again and provide some story hooks for NAN characters, that sort of thing. Talk about The Big D's first appearances, and his Holly Brighton interview. About Concrete Dreams and maybe include some Rocker-specific stuff since it fits more into that older style of Cyberpunk... I'd pay $50 for a hardcover setting book to pair with my Shadowrun 4e book. Hell, I'd pay another $50 for a hardcover reprint of classic modules updated to 4e mechanics. Paranoia did it, why not Shadowrun? Missing Blood, Harlequin, Queen Euphoria, lots of classic modules could be given a facelift and presented to a new generation of Shadowrunners as well as generate some revenue again for TPTB.

I've seen a lot of people trying to update old Shadowrun modules themselves, and Food Fight seems to go over well. There probably are some sort of liscensing problems with an official update to the modules, but I'd love to play them if they were updated. Either way, the suggestion for official versions of the old rules with new dice mechanics sounds interesting to me. Having a system without classes (other than magic users) is nice, but having specialized equipment (cyberdeck or VCR) and the the knowledge to use them makes the characters seem like they are more special to me.

[Synner667]

It's just sad that the majority of Shadowrun material is from SR v2 - almost all the scenarios, with just updates for the sourcebooks.

It's not really surprising that for most people who've been playing SR for more than SR v4, the version they remember/identify with is SR v1/v2.

SR v1 didn't have much for it, neither did SR v3 - apart from updated sourcebooks to use the new rules.

[Thanee]

SR1 is a real gem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Though SR2 really made Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Malachi]

It's just sad that the majority of Shadowrun material is from SR v2 - almost all the scenarios, with just updates for the sourcebooks.

It's not really surprising that for most people who've been playing SR for more than SR v4, the version they remember/identify with is SR v1/v2.

SR v1 didn't have much for it, neither did SR v3 - apart from updated sourcebooks to use the new rules.

For the record, I remember SR3 the best. We ran over 2 dozen adventures in the Blood in the Boardroom plot series, intertwined with the Renraku Arcology: Shutdown stuff, culminating in the Brainscan adventures. The group fell apart when I was loading up for Year of the Comet and Survival of the Fittest.

So do we have any other ideas for bringing some of the "old feel" into the current era of Shadowrun?

[tete]

While the flavor was great I would never run SR1 again, 2 maybe (skill web and spell locks are not something I would look forward to)... 3e sure. However I would play SR1 for a session or two and I would play SR2 or 3 indefinitely.

[Synner667]

So do we have any other ideas for bringing some of the "old feel" into the current era of Shadowrun?

I think the 2 main things you need to bring an old feel are :-
Make it street level - characters were high powered, but they didn't live in the easy to do things, lots of contacts, lots of money, lots of gear world of SR v4
maybe generate characters using the old priorities way was better for that feel, because you really were limited on what you could have.

Make it grungy - life was hard, you got shot and it didn't heal in a few days, you didn't have access to all the goodies, you didn't have a stupid number of dice at character generation to succeed, etc, you don't have net access or easy food when you live in the barrens, gangs actually meant something, it cost a lot to get the shiny stuff, so not shiny stuff was the norm [you come from a streetgang, but you have cutting edge gear ??]

There's no need to change the gear, etc - there are scfi comics and cyberpunk set in much higher tech places that still are grungy, street level cyberpunk [altered carbon, mindstar, gridlinked, transmetropolitan, etc]

Interestingly enough, Talsorian/CP2020 had this problem, so they created what became Cybergeneration [as mentioned in the front of the stand alone version of the rules, I think].

[tisoz]

While the flavor was great I would never run SR1 again, 2 maybe (skill web and spell locks are not something I would look forward to)... 3e sure. However I would play SR1 for a session or two and I would play SR2 or 3 indefinitely.

ditto.

I have no problem updating the SR1 adventures to SR2 or 3, but there was stuff that I was happy to see change from SR1. Rolling for every bullet fired in a burst or FA? No, thanks.

[Prime Mover]

I miss the epic plots and colorful antagonists of earlier editions, honestly don't get people pushing a more street level based game. From early on players were involved in globe trotting plots involving Immortal Elves, Great Dragons, rogue AI's and Insect Spirit invasion to name just a few.

(Ghost Cartels and the current Dawn of the Artifacts seem to be trying to return to some of that feel.)

[Platinum]

Can you point to some specific elements that you think are missing from the newer sourcebooks that would bring back some of the "feel" from the old ones? For instance, what specific aspects of the book showed Native American or Japanese influence that you think is missing now?

I picked up SR right at the end of 2nd Edition, with the vast bulk of my time spent in 3rd Edition, so to me the game hasn't changed a great deal. I'm curious what some of the older players think has gone missing.

1. Japanese and Tribal influences were everywhere. White people weren't the overwelming majority.

2. Racism was a huge part of the game. If you were meta, it meant getting bounced out of bars, and extra brawls.

3. Bots and otaku didn't overrun the matrix, Deckers did. Ice would also hit you hard. (if you didn't pizza time it) It was also more of a manual hunt for hidden files instead of see how long your bot will take to find it.

4. Getting wired had benefits. When speed is king, your fastest street sam meant the difference of life and death. Burning out wasn't as trendy.

5. Losing magic could be very bad. Taking a deadly meant good chance of magic loss. People also seemed to have less swarms of spirits floating around.

6. NPC's with regeneration were to be feared!

7. Adepts and mages with foci were slower, but were the only way to overcome spirits/bugs.

8. You could deck naked.

9. Deckers did decking, riggers drove and mages stayed in meat space/astral space. Archtypes were more delineated.

10. Tom Dowd, Nigel Findley

SR2 is cyberpunk.
SR4 is cyberemo. It sits in a corner crying and cutting it's wrists for attention.

[Platinum]

ditto.

I have no problem updating the SR1 adventures to SR2 or 3, but there was stuff that I was happy to see change from SR1. Rolling for every bullet fired in a burst or FA? No, thanks.

Don't forget countering. We had a bodyguard take out 30 gangers with counters.

[3278]

SR1 is a real gem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Though SR2 really made Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

When SR4 came out and I was really, really disappointed with it, I revisited the old books, of which we have, I guess, every one. My idea at the time was to take SR2 as a base and add the few things I liked about SR3 [mostly rigger-oriented, but some rules here-and-there, as well]. I never did it, of course, because that would take lots of time and effort, and those aren't things I spend easily, but sometimes the idea still appeals to me.

10. Tom Dowd, Nigel Findley

Amen.

[ravensmuse]

SR2 is cyberpunk.
SR4 is cyberemo. It sits in a corner crying and cutting it's wrists for attention.

Some cheese with your whine? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ayeohx]

Bradstreet and Alexander set the mood for me; that bastard Laubenstein about killed the vibe of the game for me with his pastel slapstick wonderland.

Okay, now that my standard vent is out of the way...

I loved the meta-plot until they went crazy with the Immortal Elves. "Everything that was ever cool or intelligent was done by an Immortal Elf in human guise!". Screw that, screw them. Nigel Findley was the man though. R.I.P.

3rd edition became strictly technical manuals with every bit of spirit that was Shadowrun strangled out of them. Without the Bradstreet pictures and the brilliant storyline the game became lifeless.

4th edition impressed me. Sure it was a White Wolf version of Shadowrun but I liked the system a heck of a lot more. These new devs are handling the evolution of technology and society as realistically as they can (IMO) and I'm totally digging it. I like the changes. Especially wireless! It makes sense to me. Cyberware starting to take a backseat to bioware makes sense too; you can see it happening in our world right now. I think the new writers are visionaries. They've got a good handle on tech and that's important to me.

The negatives with 4th?
I prefer my damage a bit more debilitating. Serious damage? One month in the hospital. But I understand the reason for changes and the advanced damage in Augmentation cleans up my problems here, for the most part.

The culture is becoming a heck of a lot more "white". The amerindians and Japanese are not as an important part of Seattle as they once were.

Metahumans seem to be getting along too well. I'm glad that the Seattle 2072 book is mixing it up with Brackhaven a bit even though it appears a little too forced.

Spirits and mages are crazy powerful. They use to be nukes, now, well, HOLY CRAP MAN!

Technological-freakin-overload!!! The game is becoming so detailed in technology that you need a PhD is Shadowrun to "correctly" portray the gameworld. The hacking rules are realistic in some ways, and while I'm a tech nerd, even I'm overwhelmed a bit. Drones are more plentiful than ever, commlinks, PANs, subscriptions, AI, agents, nanites, GAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

The lack of support when it comes to all of this stuff frustrates me too. The guys at CatLabs rule, I love these guys, they resurrected a dying game, but we need an easy checklist for new people who are trying to play this game. Seriously, does it say you need Firewall (or encryption or whatever) on your datajack anywhere? But people on the boards are fully aware of it even though the sample runners aren't. And that's another thing, those sample runners that are suppose to help newbs learn but they don't help at all!!! They're lack of gear will get you killed, even on milk runs! I heard Adam is working on the Runner's Toolbox, I sure hope it comes out soon and this list is in it. Cause this is my biggest gripe.

I think 4th edition rocks, sure I'd like some Bradstreet, but I'm proud of where CatLabs is taking MY game.

And yes, I'm ancient, and yes, I started with 1st edition.

Edit:
Oh, and most importantly, as a negative, the world doesn't feel as dark and hopeless. I loved that feel! Things are too bright and shiny. It occasionally has a teenie-bopper Buffy the Vampire Slayer feel to it.

[Malachi]

1. Japanese and Tribal influences were everywhere. White people weren't the overwelming majority.

2. Racism was a huge part of the game. If you were meta, it meant getting bounced out of bars, and extra brawls.

Of the 10 points you mention, only these 2 are something that could be altered in future fluff supplements. The rest of the points you mentioned are fallout or perceived changes due to rules mechanics, and those aren't likely to change.

In starting this discussion I was hoping to generate some practical ideas for bringing back a "feel" in Shadowrun that some of the older players feel is missing. Assuming what has already been published will not be changed in any radical way, what can be done in future books to bring back those elements that are perceived to be missing? The above two are points that could be emphasized in further books.

Ayeohx, I agree with you on the IE-thing. After reading all the "King Arther was an IE, Merlin was an IE, Leonardo was an IE..." stuff I started to think "Geez, can't a regular human do anything anymore?"

[Ayeohx]

Ayeohx, I agree with you on the IE-thing. After reading all the "King Arther was an IE, Merlin was an IE, Leonardo was an IE..." stuff I started to think "Geez, can't a regular human do anything anymore?"

Exactly!!! 'bout time someone understands. "Humans were just monkeys; elves rule!" So pissed off..

Anyhow, Malachi, to answer your question, I want the dark oppressive feeling to come back. Before Laubenstein... sidestepping rant... but you know what I mean. The awesome black and white pics of Alexander and Bradstreet hit the vibe perfectly. Dark with a bit of humor. We need that back. And the "wtf" factor is missing. Remember the Universal Brotherhood? Wow, that threw us for a loop. the game was dark and gritty. Now, while I love the realism, we need to stir more darkness back into the game. "Shadow" the game up a bit more, you know?

Edit: I know Laubenstein was there in the beginning but it was in contrast to the awesomeness that was Bradstreet and Alexander. In 2nd edition Laubenstein really got the spotlight and I started losing interest. 3rd edition art really alienated me.

[Skip]

I bought the first edition books when they came out 20 years ago (was it really that long ago?), and loved the feel of the game. The attitude of the game was just so different from the other games we played at the time. It had a real Hammet/Chandler feel to it, even more than Gibson.

As much I loved variable staging, it was a great idea for a video game, but back when the game came out a portable computer was a Compaq suitcase with a built-in 4 inch CRT green screen - so implementing it required a degree in applied mathmatics. I learned to cuff stuff as a GM thanks to the first edition.

[MYST1C]

Missing Blood, Harlequin, Queen Euphoria, lots of classic modules could be given a facelift and presented to a new generation of Shadowrunners as well as generate some revenue again for TPTB.

Funny thing - both Harlequin and Harlequin's back are currently remade for SR4 by the French SR licensee...

[KCKitsune]

You know I'm glad the NAN got diminished. I NEVER agreed that they could have held that much of the US after the GGD. I mean most of their big mojo slingers DIED at the end of the GGD, and they were still able to hold that territory... IMO, nope! Not going to happen.

I accept that other people think it was really cool, but honestly, the people at FASA made the NAN just because... no further thought went into WHY & HOW something like this could happen.

[Ayeohx]

You know I'm glad the NAN got diminished. I NEVER agreed that they could have held that much of the US after the GGD. I mean most of their big mojo slingers DIED at the end of the GGD, and they were still able to hold that territory... IMO, nope! Not going to happen.

I accept that other people think it was really cool, but honestly, the people at FASA made the NAN just because... no further thought went into WHY & HOW something like this could happen.

I guess that having a war to reclaim it would be really Non-PC IRL. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I'm sure that would be on the news...

But, it's already done. It's part of the game world. Ignoring it won't help. And I can think of very good reasons that they were able to hold it. Chiefly the US didn't know that most of the GGD folks died and I don't think the US knew what it took to create such powerful magic.

Besides, I kind of liked the shamans and the amerindians. Shamans... remember them? But if ya can't summon fire elementals who needs ya? I guess 4th edition really over-homoginized magic. Of course, I haven't fully read Street Magic. It looked like they tried to add diversity back into the system.

I understand where you are coming from. There's a lot in Shadowrun that doesn't quite make sense but it was created 20 years ago. Back then we weren't quite the sticklers we are today. Geez, remember our cartoons? And Airwolf or the A-Team? Pretty unlikely events but during those times it freakin rocked.

[hobgoblin]

i suspect its not so much the game that has changed, as the players...

most that frequent this place seems to have started out around 2ed, where shadowrun was something odd in that it mixed high magic with high tech, and the characters where not heros but criminals for hire.

and at the time most of the world was unknown, as the history section of the main book had only covered UCAS and seattle (with some points towards euro wars, natural disasters and similar), so each time a new book came out it was truly new, new gear, new places, new magic (tir na nog dropping in path magic, awakenings introducing voodoo, virtual realities 2.0 basically replaced the matrix rules).

with SR3 and SR4 its been more of a repeat of SR2, especially on the gear side. with SR3 only the SOTA books really introduced something new, and SR4 have inserted new along with restatted old.

in the end, one is sitting there with a sense of deja vu if one have been with the game for a decade or more, rather then the experience of cracking open SR2 and reading the timeline, finding out there are 2 elven nations, half of USA and canada is one nation, while the other half is a patchwork of native run ones, that a dragon is running a megacorp, and a european one at that...

i guess one can basically say that the sense of wonder have dropped out of the books, and one is now opening them mostly to see what have been changed, rather then wondering what its all about...

and i would say that the writers cant really reintroduce that wonder back in the books, as its a issue with the players, not the books...

[KCKitsune]

And Airwolf or the A-Team? Pretty unlikely events but during those times it freakin rocked.

I never liked A-Team all that much. I completely and utterly despised it and will never watch another episode EVER after the one episode when the A-Team was running away and were being chased by guys in a helicopter and it crashed into a cliff. I mean, on fire, there's no way in hell that ANYONE would have survived THAT... except people in the A-Team universe. The people got out of the copter almost none the worse for wear.

[Jeffrey Webb]

I never liked A-Team all that much. I completely and utterly despised it and will never watch another episode EVER after the one episode when the A-Team was running away and were being chased by guys in a helicopter and it crashed into a cliff. I mean, on fire, there's no way in hell that ANYONE would have survived THAT... except people in the A-Team universe. The people got out of the copter almost none the worse for wear.

Blame Standards and Practices for that. Just like the purple Klingon blood in Star Trek VI.

The A-Team, however, were prototypical Shadowrunners. And Hannibal was obviously an Immortal Elf... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh, and put me down in the "I miss Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley" crowd. And the Bradstreet crowd. And the Bob Charette crowd, if there is one...

[Prime Mover]

Oh, and put me down in the "I miss Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley" crowd. And the Bradstreet crowd. And the Bob Charette crowd, if there is one...

I'll get in on that list too. Been rereading Secrets of Power trilogy. (wow that brings back memories) Also Nigel's stuff is always worth going back and looking at!

[Warlordtheft]

I never liked A-Team all that much. I completely and utterly despised it and will never watch another episode EVER after the one episode when the A-Team was running away and were being chased by guys in a helicopter and it crashed into a cliff. I mean, on fire, there's no way in hell that ANYONE would have survived THAT... except people in the A-Team universe. The people got out of the copter almost none the worse for wear.

Yeah, you should go watch McGuiver create a nuke with a pack of bubble gum and duct tape!

[Joe Chummer]

10. Tom Dowd, Nigel Findley

Too bad Nigel Findley is sleeping with the fishes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Joe Chummer]

You know I'm glad the NAN got diminished. I NEVER agreed that they could have held that much of the US after the GGD. I mean most of their big mojo slingers DIED at the end of the GGD, and they were still able to hold that territory... IMO, nope! Not going to happen.

I accept that other people think it was really cool, but honestly, the people at FASA made the NAN just because... no further thought went into WHY & HOW something like this could happen.

Wow. This just sounds incredibly racist to me.

Y'know, considering all the terrible things white folks did to the Amerindians over the years -- breaking treaties, giving them smallpox-laced blankets, breaking treaties, shoving them onto reservations, breaking treaties, etc. -- and you still have a problem with giving them back some of their land, even if it's fictional? Give me a fragging break.

[Ayeohx]

Wow. This just sounds incredibly racist to me.

Y'know, considering all the terrible things white folks did to the Amerindians over the years -- breaking treaties, giving them smallpox-laced blankets, breaking treaties, shoving them onto reservations, breaking treaties, etc. -- and you still have a problem with giving them back some of their land, even if it's fictional? Give me a fragging break.

Hey, I didn't give them small pox! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But let's not make this a race war. Seriously. I understand where he's coming from. With the size of the US military let alone all of the gun carrying Americans I'm a bit surprised the NAN thing worked out. I know a few folks that would rather die than give up their homes (most, now that I think about it). You'd have to come and fireball them yourself before they'd believe you can force them out with magic and a few volcanoes wouldn't scare them away. Some of us Americans can be "special" like that.

[BlueMax]

Screw reality, screw reason. Someone was nice enough to craft a wondrous world that we call Shadowrun.

I embrace it, in all its glory and ridiculous beauty.


BlueMax

[Ayeohx]

Screw reality, screw reason. Someone was nice enough to craft a wondrous world that we call Shadowrun.

I embrace it, in all its glory and ridiculous beauty.


BlueMax

No arguing with that man. But Laubenstein corner in Downtown Seattle has to go. In my gameworld it's constantly violated with grafitti and vandalism while the Bradstreet museum across the road is thought to be the pinnacle of turn of the century art. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Malachi]

Screw reality, screw reason. Someone was nice enough to craft a wondrous world that we call Shadowrun.

I embrace it, in all its glory and ridiculous beauty.


BlueMax

That's a key attitude. I have seen on these boards some people saying, "Don't give us a shadowy reflection of what exists now, be daring create something cool, new, and different!" Then I have also seen people rail against things that are "unrealistic": "That would never happen! They didn't do their research! That writer is stupid!"

Someone said earlier that it's not so much that the game changed, it's the players that have changed. More and more I'm starting to think that's truer to the point. Back when we started SR we were younger, maybe less educated, didn't chat on internet forums so much and so on. Now a lot of us have grown up, we're more educated and more skeptical, and we post on forums where some people are bent on pointing out every flaw to show how much "smarter" they are or something. I think if we really want the CGL authors to "wow" us and create that sense of wonder and excitement again, we need to back off on that "that wouldn't happen" kind of stuff.

[Paul]

Malachi do you write for the game? Are you a freelancer? Or an actual staffer? The reason's I ask are many, but include simple curiosity.

[Ayeohx]

That's a key attitude. I have seen on these boards some people saying, "Don't give us a shadowy reflection of what exists now, be daring create something cool, new, and different!" Then I have also seen people rail against things that are "unrealistic": "That would never happen! They didn't do their research! That writer is stupid!"

Someone said earlier that it's not so much that the game changed, it's the players that have changed. More and more I'm starting to think that's truer to the point. Back when we started SR we were younger, maybe less educated, didn't chat on internet forums so much and so on. Now a lot of us have grown up, we're more educated and more skeptical, and we post on forums where some people are bent on pointing out every flaw to show how much "smarter" they are or something. I think if we really want the CGL authors to "wow" us and create that sense of wonder and excitement again, we need to back off on that "that wouldn't happen" kind of stuff.

I agree; for the most part. I think there has to be a certain caution taken when dealing with a franchise that didn't change much for a long period and then it's recently been rebooted. A lot of people were alienated. I'm sure most of us had the moments when someone pissed us of by mishandling one of our comic book or favorite story heroes:

• Break Batman's back, screw you!
• Kill Dunkelzahn, screw you!
• Kill off <insert any hero>, screw you!
• Kill off Jason Todd... well, okay. Thanks even.

But you get the idea. Gotta be careful if you want to retain your fanbase.

That said, you can't please everyone. You will piss off some people with changes just don't piss of everyone all at once.

One thing that does kind of bug me is that it seems todays writers have attempted to fix the problems of the past like Bug City, the Horrors, the Arcology, AI wackiness, etc. I understand that it's no fun writing for someone else's loose ends. But when you finish up one story you should introduce at least another story that is just as interesting. The ACHE and the AIs that live among us are rather bland in comparison. I can see these bits as important building blocks for some cool stories down the road, even in our own games, but I'm ready for some new metaplots. You know, some dark "holy crap" metaplots.

[BlueMax]

No arguing with that man. But Laubenstein corner in Downtown Seattle has to go. In my gameworld it's constantly violated with grafitti and vandalism while the Bradstreet museum across the road is thought to be the pinnacle of turn of the century art. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mess with Laubenstein and you get a broken nose.

Heck, everyone in his art did.

BlueMax

[BlueMax]

That's a key attitude. I have seen on these boards some people saying, "Don't give us a shadowy reflection of what exists now, be daring create something cool, new, and different!" Then I have also seen people rail against things that are "unrealistic": "That would never happen! They didn't do their research! That writer is stupid!"

Someone said earlier that it's not so much that the game changed, it's the players that have changed. More and more I'm starting to think that's truer to the point. Back when we started SR we were younger, maybe less educated, didn't chat on internet forums so much and so on. Now a lot of us have grown up, we're more educated and more skeptical, and we post on forums where some people are bent on pointing out every flaw to show how much "smarter" they are or something. I think if we really want the CGL authors to "wow" us and create that sense of wonder and excitement again, we need to back off on that "that wouldn't happen" kind of stuff.

Another aspect to remember is that there as a more "realistic" near future game. It was CP2020. Some of its fans are now playing, writing for and changing Shadowrun.

I totally agree with the "younger mind" aspect. As a scientist, I exercise my younger mind as often as I can.

I hope someday to get all of my last Catalyst order and then get Dawn of Artifacts. If anything lately has a hope for greatness, it is that series.

BlueMax

[Joe Chummer]

I might be in the minority here, but hear me out.

I LOVE Shadowrun.

I've loved it ever since my best chummer came home from Atlanta with his cousin's SR2 book back when we were in early high school. Within weeks he had his own copy, and I bought myself one just so I wouldn't have to keep borrowing it. I got my little brother into it, got other friends into it who moved away and became pen-and-paper RPG mavens amongst their new peers. I've read as many of the novels as I could get my hands on, and the total amount of SR books I've kept in my closet dwarfs the combined total of all other RPG books I own. I bought a ton of the SR card game. I even bought a good many of the Shadowrun Duels action figures. I've played through both the Genesis and SNES games multiple times, and -- I'll just admit it -- I even broke down and bought the XBox game just cos I needed a fix (albeit a warped and mishandled one).

So it goes to show that SR is a foundation of who I am as a gamer, as a roleplayer, heck, even who I am as a person in many ways (my Dumpshock handle I've used as my moniker for 12 years, and I even wrote a novel based in Seattle, in a less-cyberpunk-y vein, but still very SR-inpsired).

Some part of me died when FASA closed its doors, but I got over it when I learned their games would continue in the form of FanPro and later CGL.

Now imagine my surprise when SR4 was announced. There were no more deckers. The Matrix was wireless. Everything was different. I didn't immediately go and hug my well-used SR2 book, but I kinda wanted to. So I didn't even bother buying 4th edition. I felt like I had been jilted at the altar, with no good explanation.

When GenCon came around this year, I made it a point to pick up two pre-releases at the CGL booth: the 25th anniversary Battletech art/fiction book (another of my old loves) and the 20th Anniversary edition of Shadowrun. I didn't really care if it was 4th edition or not. I wanted it for the anniversary factor. I wanted it as a link to something I enjoyed so much when I was younger.

And then I started reading the book, cover to cover. Everything made complete sense to me. Sure, the mechanics were different, but the dice rolling method still felt like SR. The covert ops, the cyberware, the Matrix, the Magic -- everything important was still there. I enjoyed reading the rules and the fiction to the point that I neither noticed nor cared that there was a de-emphasis on the pink mohawk cyberpunk feel.

Which makes sense, if you think about it. Shadowrun is what you make it. If you want to play your SR world as slick covert operatives with little or no cyber and a spit-polished mage for support, go for it. If you want to play your SR world as pink-mohawk-cyberpunk with characters in tribal-fringe fashion and Amerindian shamans on your team, then go for it. If you want to call your computer specialists "deckers" rather than "hackers," then by all means do so (and I'm pretty sure someone out there has already come up with SR4-compatible wired/VR-only Matrix rules to simulate the 2050-2064 era).

The thing you have to remember is the Shadowrun books, no matter what edition they are, are meant as springboards for the imagination. Something about the world you don't like? Change it; make a house rule. You want Dunky to be alive and President of the UCAS in your world? Change it; nix the whole Dragonheart saga entirely if you want. I assure you that CGL and the ghosts of FASA won't care.

[Paul]

Often in threads like these people mistake criticism for a lack of fun. Just because you demand a quality product doesn't automatically equate to a lack of fun, or an inflexibility during play. I pay a lot of good money for Shadowrun products, like anything else I invest my time, money and emotion into of course I'll demand the best I can get for my money.

[Joe Chummer]

Mess with Laubenstein and you get a broken nose.

Heck, everyone in his art did.

BlueMax

I would like to say, there have been a lot of good artists in SR's history, and Laubenstein's work managed to capture the spirit of SR for me, especially its satiric nature. I mean, on one hand you have stores like McHughs and Lordstroms (among others), which are obviously jokes on real-world companies, and on the other you have trolls and orks, which can be inherently comedic, depending on how they're drawn. Mix the two and you feels and have a piece of Jeff Laubenstein art.

Laubenstein also was instrumental in capturing the zeitgeist of Earthdawn for me as well, but that's another matter entirely. The only place I felt his work didn't seem to mesh well was with Battletech. Jeff's art is just far too organic to work in a world of straight lines.

[Ayeohx]

I prefer the dark and gritty. Laubenstein was fine when the artwork was balanced. I suppose I should blame Bradstreet for becoming too expensive.

And no Joe, you're not a minority. Well, you're not alone, at least. I don't agree with the idea "Just change it if it doesn't work for you" though. There is a collective experience that we have when we enjoy a product. If what you loved is no longer what it was you have less to relate to others with. So it basically becomes "Change with the System or be Forgotten". I suppose a decent analogy for some of us older folks that can't understand why the younguns sag their pants and wear their hats sideways. Little bastards. And even more to the extreme are our grandparents who will only listen to Bing Crosby and the Ink Spots and who still think Elvis was the devil. Their friends dwindle away and they have less to communicate to others about. Man, I always like to end on a happy note.

[Joe Chummer]

I prefer the dark and gritty. Laubenstein was fine when the artwork was balanced. I suppose I should blame Bradstreet for becoming too expensive.

And no Joe, you're not a minority. Well, you're not alone, at least. I don't agree with the idea "Just change it if it doesn't work for you" though. There is a collective experience that we have when we enjoy a product. If what you loved is no longer what it was you have less to relate to others with. So it basically becomes "Change with the System or be Forgotten". I suppose a decent analogy for some of us older folks that can't understand why the younguns sag their pants and wear their hats sideways. Little bastards. And even more to the extreme are our grandparents who will only listen to Bing Crosby and the Ink Spots and who still think Elvis was the devil. Their friends dwindle away and they have less to communicate to others about. Man, I always like to end on a happy note.

That's all fine and good until the games you run end up becoming diametrically opposed to the revealed metaplot. Like, for example, say you were running a campaign wherein Dunky was one of your principal NPCs, and he's important to your story, and you had several (fictional in-game) years worth of runs that involved him or his influence.

Then you hear this news about how Big D was assassinated. Do you let this derail your plans and scrap your entire campaign? Or do you fudge the story to go where you wanted it to go in the first place (barring any PC "interventions" of course)?

If you think about it, no one's SR campaigns are canon except to the group that plays them. Even the published adventures that are considered metaplot canon (such as the Arcology Shutdown) can end up being played out in a way that doesn't mesh with the metaplot result and are thus rendered non-canonical. So if your game isn't canon anyway, why feel you are obligated to adhere to a piece of metaplot canon you don't agree with?

Sure, SR is a shared experience amongst players, but I can guarantee you that no two groups of SR players play the same kind of game, regardless of what edition they are using, how old they are, or how long they've been playing.

As I said, Shadowrun is what you make it. The rulebooks, sourcebooks, fiction, and metaplot are just launchpads from which to fire your rocket.

And there's absolutely nothing forcing you to change. Seems to me there are a ton of people on this board that still swear by SR2 or SR3 and have absolutely no interest in upgrading (or downgrading, depending on whom you ask) to SR4. And that's fine. No one is twisting your arm to go out and by SR4. To me SR4 seems more geared towards people who either have never played SR before or towards older, jaded players who hadn't played SR in a long time. If SR2 and the 2050-2064 era work for you, then run with it.

[Ayeohx]

Go ask the folks from Shadowlands what they think about 4th edition. There's a wonderful sense of betrayal and loss when something is taken from you and warped into a form that you don't agree with. You've even felt it according to what you've mentioned in your post above.

I thing the biggest problem with changes to things that you love is that new information is no longer being specifically written for you; you are no longer the target audience. That's what's painful. I'd wager that most of the folks playing 1st and 2nd edition Shadowrun with settings in 2050 didn't care much when any of the new books came out. Now if their editions were receiving some new material they'd probably be overjoyed (well, probably highly suspicious, but still curious).

[Joe Chummer]

Go ask the folks from Shadowlands what they think about 4th edition. There's a wonderful sense of betrayal and loss when something is taken from you and warped into a form that you don't agree with. You've even felt it according to what you've mentioned in your post above.

I thing the biggest problem with changes to things that you love is that new information is no longer being specifically written for you; you are no longer the target audience. That's what's painful. I'd wager that most of the folks playing 1st and 2nd edition Shadowrun with settings in 2050 didn't care much when any of the new books came out. Now if their editions were receiving some new material they'd probably be overjoyed (well, probably highly suspicious, but still curious).

I guess that's what I meant about being in the minority. I don't feel like SR4 warped the game into something I disagree with. I feel it is a natural progression, a mutation that is beneficial rather than an evolutionary dead end that needs pruning from SR's genetic tree.

One thing I always appreciated about the FASA stable of games (SR, Battletech, Earthdawn) is that time in them was never stagnant. For example, over the years, Battletech has compiled a long and sordid history. The in-game year I first started playing (15+ years ago) was 3025; now it hovers in the 3070s (although canonized history goes beyond that, current source books are dated for around this time). In that huge span, I've seen a lot happen across the galaxy. Whole factions have disappeared, others arose from their ashes; favored characters were killed. Stuff happens. The world grows and ages along with you, and to me, even when at some primal level I'd like the universe to remain the same, that the game changes makes it feel even that much more like a living, organic thing, not just some words in a book. And yet, there are clearly delineated eras in the Battletech books that allow you to play a game in just about any era. So why should a similar approach to Shadowrun be any different?

[Jeffrey Webb]

And yet, there are clearly delineated eras in the Battletech books that allow you to play a game in just about any era. So why should a similar approach to Shadowrun be any different?

It shouldn't. Which is why I firmly believe there should be an official Catalyst product covering the original setting and the technological aspects thereof that aren't covered in 4e.

Fluff-wise, it would give us 50's players a new book to refer our fellow die rollers to, and have a nice book matching with the other new books with modern production values.

Rules-wise, we'd have rules for good old Decking again, and maybe even the entertainment industry rules updated from Shadowbeat. In both cases, the mechanics aren't cut-and-dried for conversaion. Decking had variable target numbers AND a threshold of successes, which makes it a little more complicated to try and equate it over to the new system. The music rules made use of the 'open test', which kept track of the highest Success roll as well as the number of successes. Once again, difficult to write a conversion for. A new set of rules written and playtested by the folks in charge to ensure they're not broken.

I don't think anyone is asking for SR4e to change things BACK. What's done is done, and some players are digging it. BUT - some in-print support for the grognards like me wouldn't go amiss at all. I'd happily pay $50 for a nice 2050s hardcover full of fluff and rules, or $30 for a softcover of the same.

[Synner667]

Good idea !!

I think the success of the various World of Darkness and Call of Cthulhu variants show how well this can work.

But like reprinting old source books and old scenarios, the powers-that-be at Catalyst will reject almost guaranteed revenue streams in favour of new source material and whatever else they decide we want - ignoring the fans.

[BlueMax]

I don't think anyone is asking for SR4e to change things BACK. What's done is done, and some players are digging it. BUT - some in-print support for the grognards like me wouldn't go amiss at all. I'd happily pay $50 for a nice 2050s hardcover full of fluff and rules, or $30 for a softcover of the same.

Jeffery Webb -- please forgive the partial quoting if I missed some points.


I don't want them to roll things back, quite to the contrary. Its time to Roll things forward again. Create a unique world, not merely a parallel of today with some new technology and weak magical impact (the new magical critters are tissue strength). Who is our new magical super power? Who are our new celebs? Our new rock bands? Where are my Fragging Desert wars?

Make it unique and run with it Catalyst. If its not unique, even I have trouble remembering it or pushing it.

BlueMax

[ravensmuse]

Sweet jesus, this thread. It's like hanging out on Dragonsfoot all over again.

Catalyst doesn't hate your money. In fact, Catalyst doesn't hate YOU. You in particular. Yes, you. They would love to give you guys support in any way that they can - if you're looking forward for grognardy goodies, just wait for 6th World Almanac, from what I'm hearing - but the problem, as always, comes from the cost of things.

Yes, it would be wonderful for them to print support for campaigns running in the 50s or 60s. There were some interesting things going on in there, and I, for one, would love to see some more Bug City era support. But things like that take time and money, both of which are finite resources, especially for a small company like Catalyst (when in comparison to say, WotC or even White Wolf. I'd wager they're in the second tier by now, with BT, Eclipse Phase, and Cthulhutech. But I'm rambling). Those resources are better put towards things that are making them the most money now, like new SR material and other material for those other CGL properties. Even putting out pdfs, while cheaper, take time and money to produce and pull people away from current projects that serve as the bread n' butter of the company.

Secondly, and no offense here guys, but this really does sound like a bunch of complaining about the good old days, when things were awesome and golden guitar gods played wacked out solos while unicorns and dragons fought to the death behind them. Times have changed, and things have moved on. As we were discussing in another thread, cyberpunk is essentially dead in the water. The cultural basis that was there for it is gone; it's hard to rant on about the horrors of technology when it's making us younger, healthier, and it's providing instant entertainment at your beck and call. Japan is actually one of our buddies now. I don't know if there was a strong native american basis behind it, but we're a whole lot greener and trying to be better to our fellow man in the year 2009. The corps are still the corps, but they're being better watched after a period of naked greed that existed in the previous presidency.

And besides, technology forever marches forward. I have an ipod charging in the computer I'm typing this post up on right now that can do things that my old discman could never do - and its at least three generations old by this point. The future is now, and now we're trying to figure out what the future holds next. No one knows this yet - someone, same thread - was talking about how most cyber fiction nowadays is placed after the Singularity, when Men and Computers became one. We don't know what that period was like because we have no anchors to give us a good picture, because we're screaming right towards it.

And yeah, Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley were great innovators with imaginitive minds, but they're gone now. Dowd isn't working in the biz any more and Findley is dead. People like them were rare and unique and it's hard to replace them. IMO, I think that Wizkids / Fanpro / Catalyst has done a fine job of perserving their spirits and moving the game forward - remember, 3rd edition gave us things like SURGE, Ghostwalker, Deus and the Arcology, expanded info on the great dragons, the SOTA books, the Shedim, the IUM..I mean, maybe it's not to your preference, but I'd say out of that list, we're doing pretty good. 4e has been slow on the metaplot updates, but sometimes it takes time to lay out the groundwork for what's going to happen next. Emergence was a pretty good boo, and all of the corebooks have at least introduced some interesting things to add to the Sixth World tapestry...

I guess where I'm going with this is that its hard to listen to you guys talk and not hear "They Changed It, Now It Sucks", mixed in with the usual entitlement plagued, "the developers hate us and don't want our money!" No one hates you, no one hates that you play a previous edition, we just play our own games and move on with life. There is no large conspiracy out there to minimize you or cut you off from the rest of the herd; we're all Shadowrun fans here. It's just that some of us move with the books and have no complaints, and some people don't. It's as simple as that.

It's just a game people.

[3278]

It shouldn't. Which is why I firmly believe there should be an official Catalyst product covering the original setting and the technological aspects thereof that aren't covered in 4e.

This would fit well in a book covering variant campaigns, such as DocWagon, mercenaries, pirates, corporate security, and so on.

[tete]

Traditionally 4e is the biggest change to the rules (look at GURPS! huge change by GURPS standards)
Catalyst doesn't hate anyone but they and White-Wolf cant afford to print the old stuff for the few people who would buy an older edition.
Fortuantly there is drivethrurpg and others that allows you to get some of the old stuff digitally and you can put it on a kindle or a nook if you want to read it on the bus without a laptop.
Soon POD will be available on drivethru, this is going to be a big change in the RPG industry as now sticking with your favorite edition will be a very possible option.
The big question is what will this mean for new editions and FLGS. Only time will tell.

I am also like joe chummer except as much as I want to like 4e it just never works out. Its not my shadowrun, but I will still continue to buy the 4e books to support shadowrun even if they just gather dust on my shelf.

[Paul]

Catalyst doesn't hate your money. In fact, Catalyst doesn't hate YOU. You in particular. Yes, you. They would love to give you guys support in any way that they can - if you're looking forward for grognardy goodies, just wait for 6th World Almanac, from what I'm hearing - but the problem, as always, comes from the cost of things.

I don't think any one here doesn't realize that cost is a limiting factor. Also I don't think anyone's taking things as serious as you make it sound. I've always wondered why some people can't seem to get on board with allowing constructive criticism. Like you said, it's just a game. Why can't some of us disagree on how it's played, sold, or built?

I don't even think everyone in this thread is saying they don't like all of the changes to the game. In fact most of what I see is some minor disagreements on a few points. If the community can't tolerate dissent, no matter how large or small it's not much of a community. I personally think the community is healthy, and vibrant and can tolerate little dissent here, and there-especially by people looking to spend their hard earned dollars in support of the community.

Just because you don't like every single piece of the game doesn't mean you hate it.

[Joe Chummer]

It shouldn't. Which is why I firmly believe there should be an official Catalyst product covering the original setting and the technological aspects thereof that aren't covered in 4e.

Fluff-wise, it would give us 50's players a new book to refer our fellow die rollers to, and have a nice book matching with the other new books with modern production values.

I don't think it will contain any rules in it, per se, but the forthcoming Shadowrun Almanac should at least sate some of the yearning for a little history.

Also, would it really be that difficult to adapt SR4 house rules to fit a pre-2064 era?

Off the top of my head, here's all you'd really need to change rules-wise, and none of the changes are complicated:

1) Use normal commlink stats for comparable cyberdecks. The Signal stat isn't necessary.
2) All Matrix actions happen in full VR with a datajack or trodes. No AR.
3) Nix wireless communications (except for a sat-link, natch). Most of the wireless advanced rules from Unwired (like creating a cluster from a dozen toasters) are likewise out the window.
4) Don't allow technomancer PCs (although you can fudge the TM rules to allow datajack-using otaku, if you want)
5) Mages can only summon air/water/earth/fire elementals, and shamans can only summon nature, beasts, and Man spirits.

[Paul]

If I were the people at Shadowrun I'd tap the fan base, and get organized proposals for alternate campaigns, and get them posted online. Make them free and reap the benefits. Shadowrun has a great fan base, who are willing to work, and apparently some of you are even technically proficient with machines.

[Platinum]

If I were the people at Shadowrun I'd tap the fan base, and get organized proposals for alternate campaigns, and get them posted online. Make them free and reap the benefits. Shadowrun has a great fan base, who are willing to work, and apparently some of you are even technically proficient with machines.

I would too. Historically the "people at Shadowrun" had their heads too far up their metaplot to consider the idea that other people could produce other materials. And if they got behind their open source fans it might drive new revenue streams. Sure we can post it in some back corner of the web, but Shadowrun has always been sourced from the company. Community projects really died after Gurth and ShadowRN faded.

4e players are like mac users, pay more for an inferior product and feel better about it. That's cool. That's their tribe. I don't hate mac's or 4e, I just don't care about them, or what they do.

I wish that 2nd edition was OGL, so we can make materials for the old stuff. That would give us the best of both worlds I would think.

[Joe Chummer]

4e players are like mac users, pay more for an inferior product and feel better about it. That's cool. That's their tribe. I don't hate macs or 4e, I just don't care about them, or what they do.

You say you don't hate Macs, but the statement "inferior product" clearly shows how you really feel (and thus, by extension, SR4).

I don't own a Mac personally (at least not yet), but I work with them in a professional, IT context every day, both from a hardware AND and a software standpoint. You may not like Macs, but I'll be the first to tell you they are a dream to support (in terms of hardware/software problems), especially vs. the average PC box, and they are much easier to work ON, from a user perspective. I've got users who -- while many are nigh on functionally illiterate when it comes to computers in general -- can fly through things on a Mac with ease, but sit them in front of a Windows box, and they'll be calling me with problems within a half-hour.

I don't expect everyone to like Macs. Just be careful about insulting them without due cause, calling them inferior when they can easily stand on the same shelf next to a Window-based PC. The average person I encounter who gives the finger to Macs has NEVER used them, and you can't debase something truthfully unless you've given it an honest try.

By that extension, you can't call SR4 an inferior product unless you've run its through its paces and you have firm ground to stand on. If exposure doesn't change your initial opinion (and this goes for everything), that's fine, especially if you have reasons to back up your thesis; just don't go around insulting something that other people find legitimate value in it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You say you don't hate Macs, but the statement "inferior product" clearly shows how you really feel (and thus, by extension, SR4).

I don't own a Mac personally (at least not yet), but I work with them in a professional, IT context every day, both from a hardware AND and a software standpoint. You may not like Macs, but I'll be the first to tell you they are a dream to support (in terms of hardware/software problems), especially vs. the average PC box, and they are much easier to work ON, from a user perspective. I've got users who -- while many are nigh on functionally illiterate when it comes to computers in general -- can fly through things on a Mac with ease, but sit them in front of a Windows box, and they'll be calling me with problems within a half-hour.

I don't expect everyone to like Macs. Just be careful about insulting them without due cause, calling them inferior when they can easily stand on the same shelf next to a Window-based PC. The average person I encounter who gives the finger to Macs has NEVER used them, and you can't debase something truthfully unless you've given it an honest try.

By that extension, you can't call SR4 an inferior product unless you've run its through its paces and you have firm ground to stand on. If exposure doesn't change your initial opinion (and this goes for everything), that's fine, especially if you have reasons to back up your thesis; just don't go around insulting something that other people find legitimate value in it.

Ditto Joe Chummer... Good Post... Thanks

Keep the Faith

[ravensmuse]

Yeah, see, my rant was more directed towards people like Platinum, who seem to take the tack that the company doesn't know what it's doing with their own product and obviously the fans could do so much better. This is known as Fuck You George Lucas Syndrome.

I don't mind the criticism of 4e. I just find that it's a system that I can finally run for a game I've been a fan of since 2e. Yes, I'll admit some of your words do grate on me, but I also realize I have a low threshold for some things and really try to restrain myself. Like, if you notice, I kept myself pretty calm in my first post in the thread.

I'm eagerly awaiting 6th World Almanac.

[Joe Chummer]

Yeah, see, my rant was more directed towards people like Platinum, who seem to take the tack that the company doesn't know what it's doing with their own product and obviously the fans could do so much better. This is known as Fuck You George Lucas Syndrome.

I've honestly never understood FYGL Syndrome. The only questionable things about the SW-prequel trilogy (IMO) were Jar-Jar and some of the acting/script (Ani and Padme in Attack of the Clones, for example), which alone I don't think are enough to cry havoc about. And sure, many fans also decry "midichlorians" as demystifying the Force, but if you think about it, in a world where Force-users around for countless thousands of years (how far into the past of the Original Trilogy was "Knights of the Old Republic," again?), the Jedi would naturally have had time to study and quantify the Force as best they could on a scientific level. Midichlorians might explain why Person A is more Force-sensitive than Person B, but their presence never actually explains HOW or WHY the Force works.

But consider Darth Maul, Jango Fett, Mace Windu, clone troopers, and so on, and man, did Lucas manage to pack a lot of cool stuff in those three movies.

I'm eagerly awaiting 6th World Almanac.

So am I, chummer. So am I.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've honestly never understood FYGL Syndrome. The only questionable things about the SW-prequel trilogy (IMO) were Jar-Jar and some of the acting/script (Ani and Padme in Attack of the Clones, for example), which alone I don't think are enough to cry havoc about. And sure, many fans also decry "midichlorians" as demystifying the Force, but if you think about it, in a world where Force-users around for countless thousands of years (how far into the past of the Original Trilogy was "Knights of the Old Republic," again?), the Jedi would naturally have had time to study and quantify the Force as best they could on a scientific level. Midichlorians might explain why Person A is more Force-sensitive than Person B, but their presence never actually explains HOW or WHY the Force works.

But consider Darth Maul, Jango Fett, Mace Windu, clone troopers, and so on, and man, did Lucas manage to pack a lot of cool stuff in those three movies.

The problem with the Star Wars Sage (and episode 1-3 particularly) was that you knew where the story was going to end up... the vast majority of Star Wars Fans just wanted to see how that story got there... there were no real surprises... This coming from someone whose wife worked for George Lucas for 4+ years... I really liked the saga as a whole... Jar Jar Notwithstanding... he reminded me of the Ewoks... something for the kids so it did not seem as dark as it really was...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[hobgoblin]

OT like no other, but my understanding of those thingies was that they where attracted to people with force potential, not the source.

basically, its like taking a blood sample to look for abnormal amounts of white blood cells when wondering if someone is sick, but with no obvious symptoms.

as for macs, no problem with them, tho i have a problem with apple. That problem is their overly tight control of everything, all in the name of what experience a product should have.

they lock osx to the hardware, go after psystar when psystar is clearly selling to a market that apple is ignoring (the area between a imac and a mac pro), not allowing third party programs on the iphone to run in the background (while clearly the apple supplied media player can) or refusing programs access to the app store for reasons thats on the razors edge of anti-competitive. I am just waiting for them to phase out their imac line in favor of something thats more in line with their iphone offering. A kind of media station if you will, thats not running classical osx, and can only get its apps from the app store. The only products left running osx would be their pro products, just so they do not run afoul their media production customers...

heh, i do wonder if not they make a fine example of how horizon may appear...

[ravensmuse]

Maybe we should move the Star Wars discussion over to general, because while I'm enjoying it, I don't think that's what this thread is about, lol.

I'm fairly conservative when it comes to my roleplaying. I like stuff straight from the company, and I'll accept the vast majority of what's published. Some things I may turn my nose at, but I'm a pretty open guy. I'm really leery of using fan generated stuff (he says, being of the people submitting work to Data Haven) because so much of it is poorly balanced, ill thought out, or came about because of a perceived foul against the author's senses.

So I'm not real tolerant of the thought process that obviously fans can do it better. Maybe that makes me a bad person, I dunno. But it's not like CGL is putting out books with steaming piles of poo in-between the pages; the vast majority of the stuff I've bought and looked at, I've really really dug. Like cyborgs and a discussion of transhumanism / transgenderism in Augmentation, or the martial arts in Arsenal, or the new paradigms for magic users in Street Magic, or streams and new sprites for technomancers in Unwired. Hell, I for the most part enjoyed Emergence (there were a few kludgy parts).

So again, I don't know if it's something wrong with me and I'll accept any shit that gets shoveled my way, or that I'm just not that picky when it comes to my material. It's my table. I'll put on it what I want. And for the most part, I'm happy with what Wizkids / Fanpro / CGL has put out in the last few years and haven't been impressed by some of the fan created "solutions" to problems I don't see.

What gets my goat is the entitlement that some fandom feels towards things they're "fans" of, and the abuse they heap on the creators because they're not going with their vision. That's why I wrote my little rant up above.

And now that I've killed half an hour at work :/

ETA: Of course, xkcd had to put this out today, right?

[Paul]

Yeah, see, my rant was more directed towards people like Platinum, who seem to take the tack that the company doesn't know what it's doing with their own product and obviously the fans could do so much better.

Sigh, sorry to be this guy. Really I am. But I guess for my two yen I don't think the fans are completely ignorant, nor do I think the Company is all powerful. I feel things lie, as usual, somewhere in between. The people making the game aren't perfect, they're not always right. The fan base isn't always wrong, nor is it always right.

I just find that it's a system that I can finally run for a game I've been a fan of since 2e.

Where as in my experience-which in no way invalidates your own, but rather instead explains my own experiences-I've never had a problem running any edition. I've played SR since it's inception, and I've never had a problem running the game because of system. But I've never worried about "crunch". I could run Shaodwrun with any rule set and make it cool. For me the game isn't it's rules, rather it's setting. No game speaks to me like Shadowrun does. It is THE game for me. I do not foresee me ever playing another game in a serious way. All that said I don't always agree with what they do for the game.

[ravensmuse]

Sigh, sorry to be this guy. Really I am. But I guess for my two yen I don't think the fans are completely ignorant, nor do I think the Company is all powerful. I feel things lie, as usual, somewhere in between. The people making the game aren't perfect, they're not always right. The fan base isn't always wrong, nor is it always right.

You're not being that guy. If you have to make a disclaimer that you're not that guy, then you're not that guy.

I'm all for the balanced approach, and if I didn't agree with you about not everyone being perfect, I wouldn't be writing stuff up for Data Haven. Well I would - I do have an ego to maintain.

I'm just trying to do my part in making this place sound less like Dragonsfoot or some of the other fan run boards that don't know where the line is drawn.

Where as in my experience-which in no way invalidates your own, but rather instead explains my own experiences-I've never had a problem running any edition. I've played SR since it's inception, and I've never had a problem running the game because of system. But I've never worried about "crunch". I could run Shaodwrun with any rule set and make it cool. For me the game isn't it's rules, rather it's setting. No game speaks to me like Shadowrun does. It is THE game for me. I do not foresee me ever playing another game in a serious way. All that said I don't always agree with what they do for the game.

And I agree with you. But - and again, my experience - is that 2e and even 3e broke my brain, and I could manage DnD 3e (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I think it was Caine that said that a big help is the layout of the books, and I agree. It also doesnt hurt that the 4e system is close to the WoD system, which I am intimately familiar with. So.

[Malachi]

I would too. Historically the "people at Shadowrun" had their heads too far up their metaplot to consider the idea that other people could produce other materials. And if they got behind their open source fans it might drive new revenue streams. Sure we can post it in some back corner of the web, but Shadowrun has always been sourced from the company. Community projects really died after Gurth and ShadowRN faded.

Nothing is stopping you from producing fan content right now. Just before Peter Taylor left he was lamenting that there wasn't enough fan-generated content being produced. Heck, Peter got his job because his fan project "EuroSB" became Shadows of Europe. There are ways of promoting your fan material and getting people directed towards it: pay for good web space (not somesite.com/user/free/account/dha737#32_2ahs/index.html), promote your site, post links everywhere, update for new material often. The DDH that Bull has set up even provides a semi "official" way for you to post some of your material. Perhaps everyone goes to the "official" source for Shadowrun material because not many people have made good fan sites with useful material. Sitting back and complaining that CGL has provided no "official" channel for your material sounds to me like the flimsiest of excuses for inaction.

[tete]

Also, would it really be that difficult to adapt SR4 house rules to fit a pre-2064 era?

Depends on how hard core you want to go. If you just want SR4 with the serial numbers filed off its easy. If you want a game where wired owns the battle field and Fuchi electronics is still #1 its way tougher or at leased you are going to make enough changes to the rules/gear to resemble the amount of changes from 3e to 4e. Even the cost of things would have to change. 3e is even a big departure from 2050 play.

[Platinum]

Sigh, sorry to be this guy. Really I am. But I guess for my two yen I don't think the fans are completely ignorant, nor do I think the Company is all powerful. I feel things lie, as usual, somewhere in between. The people making the game aren't perfect, they're not always right. The fan base isn't always wrong, nor is it always right.

Where as in my experience-which in no way invalidates your own, but rather instead explains my own experiences-I've never had a problem running any edition. I've played SR since it's inception, and I've never had a problem running the game because of system. But I've never worried about "crunch". I could run Shaodwrun with any rule set and make it cool. For me the game isn't it's rules, rather it's setting. No game speaks to me like Shadowrun does. It is THE game for me. I do not foresee me ever playing another game in a serious way. All that said I don't always agree with what they do for the game.

Go missing in the big city for a few days and then to respond can be tricky so I am grabbing bits and pieces.

As for macs and the rest of the world, I have supported them from an IT side as well, But from the application/system side. The lack of software and application support from vendors is overwhelming, which makes mitigating this gap problematic. They are a nice to work with but you have a hard time getting to enterprise applications to run on them. That is why I think they are not in the same category.

I don't think that I know more than the company, but I do think that the company doesn't know everything, and doesn't always know what's best. I have been gone for a few years. Did that a few times. I guess I am expecting the energy excitement and inclusion that I felt back in the days of Gurth, Robert Hayden, and FASA. Back then it seemed like things were done because it was cool and good for shadowrun, and was not about specific people or money. It entirely could have been, but that was not perceived back then because information flowed differently. Personally I don't know how d20 makes any kind of profit, but I really love the community and material produced. I still think that model for 2e would be great. I dunno about anyone else, but it seems difficult to file the serial numbers off and make shadowrun into something official if it doesn't come from the company producing it. The devs put out a lot of material for their community, ie missions, but I haven't seen a lot of messages that encourage people to create their own flavours of shadowrun for others to share. That is what I think is missing.

I have such great memories playing this game. I know there were critical flaws with the game, but "It is THE game for me" as well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Go missing in the big city for a few days and then to respond can be tricky so I am grabbing bits and pieces.

As for macs and the rest of the world, I have supported them from an IT side as well, But from the application/system side. The lack of software and application support from vendors is overwhelming, which makes mitigating this gap problematic. They are a nice to work with but you have a hard time getting to enterprise applications to run on them. That is why I think they are not in the same category.

I don't think that I know more than the company, but I do think that the company doesn't know everything, and doesn't always know what's best. I have been gone for a few years. Did that a few times. I guess I am expecting the energy excitement and inclusion that I felt back in the days of Gurth, Robert Hayden, and FASA. Back then it seemed like things were done because it was cool and good for shadowrun, and was not about specific people or money. It entirely could have been, but that was not perceived back then because information flowed differently. Personally I don't know how d20 makes any kind of profit, but I really love the community and material produced. I still think that model for 2e would be great. I dunno about anyone else, but it seems difficult to file the serial numbers off and make shadowrun into something official if it doesn't come from the company producing it. The devs put out a lot of material for their community, ie missions, but I haven't seen a lot of messages that encourage people to create their own flavours of shadowrun for others to share. That is what I think is missing.

I have such great memories playing this game. I know there were critical flaws with the game, but "It is THE game for me" as well.

As several people have pointed out, there are a couple of ways to have your personal ideas printed in a semi official format, if nothing else... The Data Haven is a prime place to go looking for an outlet for your creativity, and I seem to remember several other outlets talked about on these forums... sorry that I cannot point you to more locations, but try out the Dumpshock Data Haven, you might like it...

Keep the Faith

[tete]

[edit] post removed for misreading original post

[Platinum]

As several people have pointed out, there are a couple of ways to have your personal ideas printed in a semi official format, if nothing else... The Data Haven is a prime place to go looking for an outlet for your creativity, and I seem to remember several other outlets talked about on these forums... sorry that I cannot point you to more locations, but try out the Dumpshock Data Haven, you might like it...

Keep the Faith

Isn't the DDH publishing stuff for 4th edition? That is the assumption that I drew, based on the fact that it is band new, and Bull's name is on it.

I have done the publish my own content stuff before. I also did a great deal of collecting of ideas here actually. Shut down my domain a long time ago because I didn't think paying for the hosting of a non-official and basically dead site made sense.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Isn't the DDH publishing stuff for 4th edition? That is the assumption that I drew, based on the fact that it is band new, and Bull's name is on it.

I have done the publish my own content stuff before. I also did a great deal of collecting of ideas here actually. Shut down my domain a long time ago because I didn't think paying for the hosting of a non-official and basically dead site made sense.

I do believe that DDH is for 4th Edition Primarily, but I could be wrong... and Bull's name is on a lot of things I think...

As for self-publishing, there are a lot of free hosting sites that you can take advantage of (probably with your ISP, I get a fairly large chunk of webspace with mine if I wanted it), and if you promote it here on Dumpshock, I am sure that you would probably get a fair amount of traffic to make it viable... several Dumpshockers have their own sites that are functional for Fan-Made Content...

Keep the Faith

[Joe Chummer]

Depends on how hard core you want to go. If you just want SR4 with the serial numbers filed off its easy. If you want a game where wired owns the battle field and Fuchi electronics is still #1 its way tougher or at leased you are going to make enough changes to the rules/gear to resemble the amount of changes from 3e to 4e. Even the cost of things would have to change. 3e is even a big departure from 2050 play.

But technically, aside from the few rules differences I already pointed out, aren't the only real differences between 2070 and 2050 all a matter of fluff? Sure Fuchi doesn't exist in 2070 in the same capacity as it did in 2050, but that's merely a matter of fiction and setting, not a matter of rules. And even if you did need rules for figuring out where Fuchi stands amongst the AAAs, then the asset ratings rules in Corporate Shadowrfiles (an SR2-era book) or Corporate Download(an SR3-era book) should be usable no matter what SR edition you're playing, as they don't rely on any stats or mechanics that are intrinsic to any one particular SR version.

And as far as costs go, if you're using the BP system, the cost of most gear items shouldn't really change things, since the BP cost for money is geared to SR4 prices (in fact, I believe the cost of most vehicles, armor, and weapons haven't changed much over the years). The only thing that might need to be fudged are cyberdeck costs, as there's a big discrepancy between the most powerful cyberdecks of 50s and the most powerful commlinks of the 70s. I mean, keeping super-cheap SR4-analogs of Fairlight Excaliburs out of the hands of street punks is probably a good idea, as far as the common decker-worth-his-salt in the 50s is concerned

[Cryonic]

And as far as costs go, if you're using the BP system, the cost of most gear items shouldn't really change things, since the BP cost for money is geared to SR4 prices (in fact, I believe the cost of most vehicles, armor, and weapons haven't changed much over the years). The only thing that might need to be fudged are cyberdeck costs, as there's a big discrepancy between the most powerful cyberdecks of 50s and the most powerful commlinks of the 70s. I mean, keeping super-cheap SR4-analogs of Fairlight Excaliburs out of the hands of street punks is probably a good idea, as far as the common decker-worth-his-salt in the 50s is concerned

There are some cost differences. Such as Alpha and Beta multipliers, but you are essentially correct about the build systems costs.

[Joe Chummer]

There are some cost differences. Such as Alpha and Beta multipliers, but you are essentially correct about the build systems costs.

True. Been so long since I've played SR2/3 I didn't notice the difference.

I'd also think the Priority or the Karma system of character creation (as outlined in Runner's Companion) would balance the cost as well.

If someone's worried about bankrupting their character at chargen trying to spend BPs for SR4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to purchase a drekhot Fuchi or Fairlight cyberdeck for a 2050-era SR4 campagin, I would suggest maybe not changing the price per se but rather the availability. The actual cost of an expensive 2050's era cyberdeck keeps the pricey SOTA decks out of the hands of the unwashed and unworthy masses, but if a 2050-era cyberdeck-analog of say, a Fairlight Caliban commlink cost the same, you could give the cyberdeck a high availability/legality. Sure you might have the money to buy one, but they're really hard to actually get their hands on (or are considered the province of security/government/law-enforcement deckers and thus illegal without an operator license). If your fixer or local computer shop can't get enough successes to meet the availability threshold you set within X amount of time, then said deck simply isn't in stock anywhere (think the Nintendo Wii shortage that lasted almost a whole year after its launch date).

Or, you could just keep them the cyberdecks the same SR2/3 price and spend all your BP on decks and programs rather than skills, attributes, or other things that help keep you alive (which I wouldn't recommend unless you are making a agoraphobic/shut-in/total-immersion-lifestyle kind of decker).

Or, you could create a cyberdeck with better stats than an (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 8,000 Fairlight Caliban commlink , and charge more for it ie. invent a "Fuchi Firestorm 3XT" (or whatever you want to call it) cyberdeck, with System 6, Response 6, Firewall 6, for, say, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 20,000-50,000.

I hope this makes sense. I haven't had a decent night's sleep in several days.

[tete]

@ Joe

It depends on how hard core you want to be. PCs in 1e/2e/3e could not start with anywhere near the best cyberdeck (that would be 5.5 million nuyen in 2e reduced to 1.5 million in 3e). If I want just some 2050 flavor (racism, no wireless) then your ok with 4e not too much work. If you want magic to be uber rare, high end tech not to be available to PCs cus it costs so much, then this becomes a ton of work. You have to remember in the early years of SR you were only going to start with a upper mid level deck for your priority A. You also had to pick A to be a Metahuman. Cost of things was just plain different so it gave it a different feel. SR3/4 reduced cost in favor of balance. This is not a bad thing, it moved with the plot but... If you want 2050 to really feel like 2050 your going to have to mod your 4e game heavily.

[edit] there is nothing wrong with just filing off the serial numbers and saying good enough either. You just have to find a happy place for your game. For me that means I use 3e with some 4e tweaks. But I am alittle more hard core about my 2050 than others and less hard core than those who would still put up with skill web and spell locks.

[i101]

I have just read thru the thread. I am gonna keep it short and quote the most interesting statements (at least for me).

I don't think anyone is asking for SR4e to change things BACK. What's done is done, and some players are digging it. BUT - some in-print support for the grognards like me wouldn't go amiss at all. I'd happily pay $50 for a nice 2050s hardcover full of fluff and rules, or $30 for a softcover of the same.

Count me in mate. Even if I doubt that such a book(s) will be ever published.

And besides, technology forever marches forward. I have an ipod charging in the computer I'm typing this post up on right now that can do things that my old discman could never do - and its at least three generations old by this point. The future is now, and now we're trying to figure out what the future holds next. No one knows this yet - someone, same thread - was talking about how most cyber fiction nowadays is placed after the Singularity, when Men and Computers became one. We don't know what that period was like because we have no anchors to give us a good picture, because we're screaming right towards it.

No offense, but what has this to do with Shadowrun? IRL Technology marched forward, and? Who the frag cares? Only because back in the days (1989) people used BTX modems (or whatever) to surf the first the internet, and thesedays you can surf and download thru your iPhone/iPod WiFi, it doesnt mean that this should be of any influence for a RPG. We are talking about a role playing game which has advanced for reasons that have definitely nothing to do with the advances of our IRL. Developers do not only publish new editions for the reason of better rule mechanics, but also for the reason of, guess what, profit. Which is ok, they fund their company thru new products and game lines. Thats the way it is, otherwise they couldnt exist.

..."the developers hate us and don't want our money!" No one hates you, no one hates that you play a previous edition, we just play our own games and move on with life. There is no large conspiracy out there to minimize you or cut you off from the rest of the herd; we're all Shadowrun fans here. It's just that some of us move with the books and have no complaints, and some people don't. It's as simple as that.

It's just a game people.

Yes you are right, it is only a game, therefore I dont understand why you are exaggerating that much? I think that it should be ok for a player to express their point of view on the actuall system. For whatever reasons this may be. Some are whining about new mechanics and how unrelastic some rules are, and others are missing the game falvour of older editions. Although I am no big friend of the whiners, I can feel those people who miss the sr1 spirit.

I am fully aware that you overdid your statement on purpose. But hey, hold your horses. Again, please dont feel offended by me. It is nice to see that there are still some people that would like to play the NEW sr4 mechanics in some older setting, with the possibility to play deckers and riggers, and with possibility I dont mean just to rename commlinks into decks. So instead blowing this thread up, why just dont get together and maybe work on some homebrew stuff?

Nothing is stopping you from producing fan content right now.

RRRIGGGHT! Therefore I would like to suggest to anyone interested, lets join forces and work together on some homebrew sr4 rules, which would allow us to play back in the 50-60ies? Talking about reworking cyberdecks, riggercontrols and so on. The more people the better the output should be.


Cheers.

[Malachi]

No offense, but what has this to do with Shadowrun? IRL Technology marched forward, and? Who the frag cares? Only because back in the days (1989) people used BTX modems (or whatever) to surf the first the internet, and thesedays you can surf and download thru your iPhone/iPod WiFi, it doesnt mean that this should be of any influence for a RPG. We are talking about a role playing game which has advanced for reasons that have definitely nothing to do with the advances of our IRL. Developers do not only publish new editions for the reason of better rule mechanics, but also for the reason of, guess what, profit. Which is ok, they fund their company thru new products and game lines. Thats the way it is, otherwise they couldnt exist.

You are correct that advancement of RL technology "shouldn't" affect how tech advances in the game, but the reality of RPG's as a business means that it does. Many of the changes in SR4 were made (I believe, I don't know for sure) in an attempt to make it appealing for new players and break down barriers of entry. For people unfamiliar with previous versions of Shadowrun, it can be very inhibiting to come to a game that supposedly takes place in the "future" yet has technical capabilities inferior to those we have right now.

Like it or not, I think the focus of SR4 has been to try and bring new players into the game while still trying to please long-time fans of the franchise. It's a tough line to walk.

[nezumi]

@ Joe

It depends on how hard core you want to be. PCs in 1e/2e/3e could not start with anywhere near the best cyberdeck (that would be 5.5 million nuyen in 2e reduced to 1.5 million in 3e

Cyber changed drastically too. Used to be a sammie could spend a cool $1M on gear and still be wanting.

BP costs for metas would have to go yup, plus the random allergies...

[Malachi]

You know, one of the things I picked up on through this thread is the significance of art. Many people sighted the artwork as much or more than the actual content as the biggest factor of things they "miss." I suppose the lesson learned is that the influence art has on a game cannot be underestimated.

[Ayeohx]

You know, one of the things I picked up on through this thread is the significance of art. Many people sighted the artwork as much or more than the actual content as the biggest factor of things they "miss." I suppose the lesson learned is that the influence art has on a game cannot be underestimated.

That's correct Malachi. Art sets the mood for me. If I opened Shadowrun 4th edition and everything was anime I'd, well, beat the hell out of someone for crapping on my game. Seriously. I'm sure some of you get off on anime but I'm a gritty realism guy firmly rooting in the Shadowrun of the Bradstreet Shadowrun days. Laubenstein art still pisses me off. And the pastels that 3rd edition sported about severed my ties with SR. That and the lack of any sort of spirit. All rules and little story content. Impressive rules, still, I'm playing Shadowrun for the vibe. And the story and the art carries that vibe for me.

[Paul]

You are correct that advancement of RL technology "shouldn't" affect how tech advances in the game, but the reality of RPG's as a business means that it does.

I'm not sure that has to be true though Malachi. I get that it generally is, but I'm not sure I agree it has to be. Of course that's not my choice to make. You still haven't answered my question by the way.

[Joe Chummer]

That's correct Malachi. Art sets the mood for me. If I opened Shadowrun 4th edition and everything was anime I'd, well, beat the hell out of someone for crapping on my game. Seriously. I'm sure some of you get off on anime but I'm a gritty realism guy firmly rooting in the Shadowrun of the Bradstreet Shadowrun days. Laubenstein art still pisses me off. And the pastels that 3rd edition sported about severed my ties with SR. That and the lack of any sort of spirit. All rules and little story content. Impressive rules, still, I'm playing Shadowrun for the vibe. And the story and the art carries that vibe for me.

So I take it you liked Janet Allusio's work?

Also, there are quite a few anime series that are dark, gritty, and realistic. Not ALL anime is big eyes, bright colors, exaggerated proportions and tentacles. "Jin-Roh" and "Grave of the Fireflies" immediately spring to mind.

[Platinum]

So I take it you liked Janet Allusio's work?

Also, there are quite a few anime series that are dark, gritty, and realistic. Not ALL anime is big eyes, bright colors, exaggerated proportions and tentacles. "Jin-Roh" and "Grave of the Fireflies" immediately spring to mind.

I was going through an sr2 manual yesterday looking at her artwork. I didn't like the cross hatching, that would be my only gnit pick, as her work was solid and really gave you a feel for the metas and cyberware.

[Platinum]

You are correct that advancement of RL technology "shouldn't" affect how tech advances in the game, but the reality of RPG's as a business means that it does. Many of the changes in SR4 were made (I believe, I don't know for sure) in an attempt to make it appealing for new players and break down barriers of entry. For people unfamiliar with previous versions of Shadowrun, it can be very inhibiting to come to a game that supposedly takes place in the "future" yet has technical capabilities inferior to those we have right now.

Like it or not, I think the focus of SR4 has been to try and bring new players into the game while still trying to please long-time fans of the franchise. It's a tough line to walk.

I don't really agree with that. There hasn't really been anything invented in the last 10 years that would alter the course of a futuristic game like Shadowrun. The scope of the wireless mesh was a direction set by Rob deliberately. Shadowrun had wireless before that, just not the scale that it was blown up to because of a Metaplot. The environment should have played a bigger part then wireless. My uninformed guess was that Rob wanted to make Shadowrun more like GITS SAC.

[Ayeohx]

So I take it you liked Janet Allusio's work?

Also, there are quite a few anime series that are dark, gritty, and realistic. Not ALL anime is big eyes, bright colors, exaggerated proportions and tentacles. "Jin-Roh" and "Grave of the Fireflies" immediately spring to mind.

If Janet Allusio's art looks like Bradstreets, then heck yeah, I'd love it. Especially is it's B&W.

I had quite the anti-anime rant but I've deleted it. I will say that anime is not Shadowrun for me. I cannot take it seriously as an art form. The realism never comes across to me. But that's my feelings on the subject. You're Shadowrun may look like Dominion Tank Police. Or a high school drama like, well, half the anime we get in the US.

For my SR I need realism, black and white, guns, swords, the occasional wit (like Bradstreet's buttons & grafitti) and a feeling that something more is happening in the scene than depicted. The last part of that sentence is a big hitter for me. Remember how many of the pics looked liked something awesome was going on but you weren't sure what exactly? That type of art gets you thinking and for us GMs it really helps.

[Ayeohx]

I was going through an sr2 manual yesterday looking at her artwork. I didn't like the cross hatching, that would be my only gnit pick, as her work was solid and really gave you a feel for the metas and cyberware.

Oh wait... if her's was the art with the insane amount of heavy handed cross hatching then I thought that it was okay, but not as high quality as Bradstreet or Alexander.

[Joe Chummer]

Oh wait... if her's was the art with the insane amount of heavy handed cross hatching then I thought that it was okay, but not as high quality as Bradstreet or Alexander.

Two different art styles, but I think they work. Allusio for the dark, Bradstreet for the grit. Love or hate Allusio's crosshatching, her art reflected SR in the sense that the pieces she did for Earthdawn were much softer and often not even in B/W ink. I always got the sense that Allusio's pieces conveyed (both figuratively and literally) the overall, smoky miasma of darkness and corruption in SR: most of her pieces are dark, misty crowd scenes. Bradstreet's art always went down to the personal level, as (if I recall) there were hardly ever more than 1 or 2 subjects "on camera" at a time. Two different art styles, two different purposes.

Too bad Bradstreet did more Vampire:The Masquerade art than he ever did SR art. If I recall, most of the Bradstreet pieces in SR2 were also from SR1, and after that, he was pretty much done with SR, Ghost only knows why.

My biggest lament with modern SR art isn't how it compares to previous SR art. It's that more often than not you can't tell who did it, due to lack of a legible signature (or sometimes lack of signature at all). For example, there were quite a few non-classical-SR-era pieces in SR4A that I really liked, only I have NO clue who to attribute them to. Same goes for the splatbooks. And also for the Eclipse Phase rulebook. I guess it's not just SR. Catalyst isn't wanting for good artists, but FASA did know how to make it easier to identify who drew what, even if it was a chunky signature that looked like it was drawn by a 5-year-old ("MIKEN" anyone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )

[hobgoblin]

on the topic of art, so far i think one of the best in SR4 is part of emergence.

its the one where you have a girl next to a shop window or something, and the reflection is not matching up.

btw, how many of the artists that worked on earlier SR versions came from a B&W comics background?

and also, how much of the current SR art is delivered as color and then grayscaled, and/or delivered in a vector graphics format (where the computer do the finer points of the shading and curves)?