Spirit Pacts - What's to gain ?, Some pacts are unclear Options

[PatB]

Please help. I'm failling to understand the various spirit pacts as described on page 108 in Street Magic or their gain versus their cost. Note that a Spirit Pact costs, at character creation, the spirit's edge pool times 5 BP, or time 10 Karma:

Drain Pact: The mage can use the spirit's Edge pool for any magic-related resistance test. Very addictive and the spirit may ask karma. That one is fine and is in fact dangerous, probably too much for a player to take it.

Dream Pact: The spirit has control over the bounded character when he sleeps. The spirit gains karma through its action. However, what does the bounded character gains in return, especially if he doesn't remember anything "he did" ?? Worse is that the character suffers any impact of the spirit's actions.

Formula Pact: Gain Immunity to Age and the spirit's formula. Fine with this one, but I'm not convinced it's worth the cost in BP/Karma, unless the character doesn't have to do an astral quest to get the formula ?!?!

Life Pact: Exchange 1 Karma to heal 2 physical boxes. That's a life saver for those dire situations. Fine with this one too. Actually, it's probably the one that makes more sense to me.

Magic Pact: Once per day, enhance Magic attribute by half the spirit's magic attribute for Force combat turn. The spirit may use the character's Edge without asking. Seems fine, except that you need to deal with the use of Edge

Power Pact: The mage can use one power from the spirit, and the spirit can use one spell from the mage. Lasts 24H. Not sure why a spirit would go this way ... or why a mage would refuse such a deal ... unless both the mage and spirit can't use the power/spell it gave ??


Any thoughts ?? Did any of you used the Spirit Pacts ??
Thanks

[Summerstorm]

Well, the Magic Pact, Drain Pact and the Formula Pact are awesome. I think i oversaw the Formlua one... imunity to age is totally rad (for those fast living humans). But yeah, mostly NPC-Stuff.

But Magic and and Drain? HOLY cow... as if the magiciancs needed MORE DICE. Great tool for the GM to have an NPC sling around level 15 spells without tiring much *g* and insanely dangerous in the hands of a player... but at least they have nice, unpredictable drawbacks. Lifepact is a great convienience but useless most of the time.

And Dream pact is one of those "hahaha, i tricked a magician to give me access to his world"-kind of things. (Could also be a nice spirit though) And a great roleplaying opportunity, playing a man who does his runs while sleeping *g*

Overall they are hugely powerful... combined with a specialized spellcaster can be gamebreakingly powerful. Handle with care.

[Karoline]

I think the spirit pact quality is generally one that is going to be much more on a case by case basis, and the pacts presented are more standard pacts that one might enter with a spirit. The dream pact for instance would be something the mage gives in exchange for something from the spirit. I could certainly see the power pact being good for the spirit if there is a particular spell they want. The Formula pact is good because the mage gets to be immune to aging in exchange for protecting the spirit's formula. Also, the power pact could, if you're getting the quality for it, be infinitely renewed. Some very powerful options for both sides really (all kinds of cool powers, and spirit could get control mind or something like that)

[Udoshi]

There's also the Friendship pact, in the RC, but that's more for Spirits. Still, an alternative to the Dream pact.

[Samoth]

So you could make a pact with a force 1 spirit for 5 bp/10 karma and get immunity to age? after that the spirit can go do whatever spirits do and you never have to deal with him again?

[Karoline]

So you could make a pact with a force 1 spirit for 5 bp/10 karma and get immunity to age? after that the spirit can go do whatever spirits do and you never have to deal with him again?

Technically, though I'd imagine there is a decent chance that such a weak spirit ends up getting itself killed.

[Tanegar]

Can a magician enter into a pact with his own ally spirit, and does "unconscious" (as in, from stun damage) count as "asleep?" The munchkin in me is looking at conjuring an ally, then entering into a dream or formula pact with it. With a dream pact, you have the spirit follow you around so if you get knocked out the ally instantly takes over and moves your body to safety, and with the formula pact your ally has even more incentive to look out for you.

Hmm. Can you enter into more than one pact?

[Karoline]

Hmm. Can you enter into more than one pact?

AFAIK yes. As for the other stuff, not so sure.

[Apathy]

How dream pacts happen

[ Spoiler ]

Pvt Tentpeg jumps out of the DC-60 and pulls his ripcord. Oh no - the chute lines are fouled! He starts tumbling as he rips out his reserve, but it gets fouled up with his primary chute. He's really panicking and praying for a miracle. Suddenly, a spirit manifests beside him and yells in his ear "I can get you out of this, but first you've got to agree to something..."

[merashin]

if dream pact counts knocked out as being asleep, then you get knocked out in a fight and have a force 5 spirit possess you and kill everything. Sure it might try to kill your allies, but then again at some point a shadowrunner will probably do that anyway, at least all of the ones i've met. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mongoose]

The dream pact can have benefits to the character if he bargains for them. The spirit doesn't want you to sleep in an armored manavault, or guarded by a friendly mage? Fine, then he's got to do you a few favors, or at least avoid pissing you off. If you are on good terms with the spirit, it can make for a fairly productive team up.

[Hagga]

Well, the Magic Pact, Drain Pact and the Formula Pact are awesome. I think i oversaw the Formlua one... imunity to age is totally rad (for those fast living humans). But yeah, mostly NPC-Stuff.

But Magic and and Drain? HOLY cow... as if the magiciancs needed MORE DICE. Great tool for the GM to have an NPC sling around level 15 spells without tiring much *g* and insanely dangerous in the hands of a player... but at least they have nice, unpredictable drawbacks. Lifepact is a great convienience but useless most of the time.

And Dream pact is one of those "hahaha, i tricked a magician to give me access to his world"-kind of things. (Could also be a nice spirit though) And a great roleplaying opportunity, playing a man who does his runs while sleeping *g*

Overall they are hugely powerful... combined with a specialized spellcaster can be gamebreakingly powerful. Handle with care.

The formula pact isn't quite like that. The spirit formula in your aura is clearly visible and becomes the only one that can affect the spirit, forever and ever. So it might be banished, but it can't be destroyed or permenantly barred for earth (at least, not for sure) without killing *you*.

Surprise! Quick, go make a pact with a Reaper and doom the world!

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Yeah, Sleep Pact should activate upon Stun filling, or I could see a really paranoid guy taking it so he'd never be asleep for an assassination attempt or something. Considering that Possession spirits have a different stun track than their vessel, Sleep Pact could be a very powerful way of dealing with SnS and Stunbolt.

[Manunancy]

I could see a really paranoid guy taking it so he'd never be asleep for an assassination attempt or something.

I don'think a pranoï would like the notion of a spirit using his body while he's out - if eveyone is out to get him, the spririt is porbably counted amongst 'them'. Afterall if someone makes the spirit a juicy enough offer, he might very well use the pact to deliver him to his ennemies.

Coul make a nice plot : convince the spirit to deliver the body, get whta you wan out of the guy, then tinker a bit with the guy's brain to make him asleep 24/24 - the spirit gets a permanent body out of the deal.
One especially devious trick would be to fit some sort of switch that can be activated from th astral to th implant to get a really necy sleeper agent (pun intended)

[Dakka Dakka]

Sleep Pact could also make up some nice "My Own Worst Enemy"-Moments. Too bad they canceled the show

[knasser]

The dream pact can have benefits to the character if he bargains for them. The spirit doesn't want you to sleep in an armored manavault, or guarded by a friendly mage? Fine, then he's got to do you a few favors, or at least avoid pissing you off. If you are on good terms with the spirit, it can make for a fairly productive team up.

You know how my spirit would react to that? You wake up with blood all over your face because the spirit has been headbutting the interior wall of your armoured manavault because you're trying to weasel out of your deal. Or maybe it chews off and swallows your own tongue. Or maybe it cancels the pact (at the worst possible time). Or maybe because it knows where you are at any given time, it has someone come round and break open the manavault and free it. And then it uses drugs to keep you asleep for a few days whilst it catches up on missed time.

Basically, I see spirit pacts as a trade good that the spirit can offer. What you / they get in return for them is down to what you negotiate with the spirit. Imagine how your PC would react if someone tried to cheat them out of what they'd been promised. And then double it because a spirit can be a lot nastier than some petty metahuman.

K.

[The Jopp]

Interesting.

In order for a magician to know what the spirit have been up to during his sleep cycle he could have cybereyes and add recording mode on his eyes (and ears) to record and review what the spirit have been up to.

After all, can a spirit see AR? Even free ones? Thus they cannot control the Commlink or cyberware, especially if they have a password protected commlink and cyberware.

[Karoline]

Interesting.

In order for a magician to know what the spirit have been up to during his sleep cycle he could have cybereyes and add recording mode on his eyes (and ears) to record and review what the spirit have been up to.

After all, can a spirit see AR? Even free ones? Thus they cannot control the Commlink or cyberware, especially if they have a password protected commlink and cyberware.

Nope, spirits can't see AR, can't enter VR, can't see computer screens (or at least not what is on them), and can't make use of any cyberware, which raises the question of if the spirit could use the cybereyes or not. Wouldn't be a huge problem given that they can still see stuff astrally. Actually the fact that they can't see AR or computer screens even when possessing a body makes me wonder if they could see out of natural eyes either.

It would be a great way to at least know what happened.

[Dakka Dakka]

Nope, spirits can't see AR, can't enter VR, can't see computer screens (or at least not what is on them), and can't make use of any cyberware, which raises the question of if the spirit could use the cybereyes or not. Wouldn't be a huge problem given that they can still see stuff astrally. Actually the fact that they can't see AR or computer screens even when possessing a body makes me wonder if they could see out of natural eyes either.

Unless there is something special about spirits, they can just as any other dual-natured critter perceive the physical plane as of SR4A. So at least computer screens can be seen. The Beast Spirit's Low-Light Vision wouldn't make much sense either, if the spirit could only perceive the astral plane.

[Karoline]

Free Spirits on the physical plane are dual-natured beings. As
with other dual-natured entities, a spirit’s ethereal senses are able
to sense both worlds without incurring modifiers for acting on
both planes at the same time. Note, however, that spirits are unable
to see or interpret simsense, electronic projections on screens,
or AR displays.

[Rasumichin]

Dream Pact: The spirit has control over the bounded character when he sleeps. The spirit gains karma through its action. However, what does the bounded character gains in return, especially if he doesn't remember anything "he did" ??

He gets to know Tyler Durden.

This also means that, if the spirit and the character share the same agenda, they can get some shit done.
The character can, by extension, work on certain projects 24/7, never resting, always watched over.
It's highly specific and requires either a very desperate character or a lot of trust towards the spirit, but under the right circumstances, it can be useful.

Power Pact: The mage can use one power from the spirit, and the spirit can use one spell from the mage. Lasts 24H. Not sure why a spirit would go this way ...

The Power Pact is actually a great bargaining tool for the spirit. It's very useful for the person entering the pact, easy to cancel for the spirit, so you have a constant opportunity to ask for favors.
If the spirit does a lot of plotting and scheming, it's a great way to beef up his minions.
Some spirits run gangs or syndicates or similar outfits, it adds a lot to their power if they can just share some of their cooler tricks with their employees.

After all, can a spirit see AR? Even free ones? Thus they cannot control the Commlink or cyberware, especially if they have a password protected commlink and cyberware.

No, spirits normally cannot use AR or VR. They may only benefit from the host's ware if it is either "always on" (bone lacing and such) or has been previously activated and does not rely on AR to be operated (activated wired reflexes would work, a smartlink wouldn't).

The exception to this are certain forms of inhabitation.
In these cases, the merge can make complete use of the host's ware and also operate AR and VR normally.
Yes, this means there could be bug spirits on the matrix.

[Dakka Dakka]

Silly but obviously RAW. How does the spirit decide which photon it can perceive?

[Rasumichin]

Silly but obviously RAW. How does the spirit decide which photon it can perceive?

It doesn't.
The merge just makes use of the normal neural system of the host.

[Dakka Dakka]

It doesn't.
The merge just makes use of the normal neural system of the host.

Unless I misunderstood something about the quote this applies to all spirits including materialising ones which do not have a host. They need to have physical senses, otherwise enhancements to those senses would be pointless. And if photons hit the spirits senses there schould be a stimulus no matter were the photon came from. Why would a spirit be able to see a printed out screeenshot but not the information on the screen itself. That is just silly.
I understand that simsense does not work, since the DNI does not find a suitabel nervous system, but either all or no photons should be perceived by spirits.

[Rasumichin]

Oh, sorry, i just misunderstood what you where getting at.
Yeah, you're right, that "screens don't work" stuff makes no sense.