Grim Theory, Ideas on off-limit or much-needed spells Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Crimson Jack]

What spells would you like to see in the next Grimoire that are sorely missing and would enhance the game without breaking it (as in Teleportation)?

[Nikoli]

Brown Note for disabling guards en masse (and in mess)
See southpark for details.

[Kagetenshi]

Extremely high-frequency sound generation for handily reducing guards to vegetables.

~J

[Nikoli]

While not exactly a spell, how about an adept power that mimicks the aiming function of a smartgun link.

[Siege]

Exploring alternative physical adepts -- either new powers or broadening possible horizons like social skills, enhanced pheremones and so on.

-Siege

[Nikoli]

Or, opening new uses of powers based on other powers obtained, such as having the hearing amp ability and the emotion sensing ability allows the phys ad to act as a human lie detector

[Siege]

Enhanced amp?

-Siege

[Nikoli]

I fixed, sorry. Hearing amplitude

[Siege]

Ahhh, got it.

That would be an interesting set of house rules -- not only for adepts, but creative uses of cyber to boot.

-Siege

[Nikoli]

true, but cyber won't clue you in on emotional state.

[Req]

Why not? We can do voice-stress analysis right now. It's not perfect, but I can't imagine an equation to deduce emotional state is impossible.

[Nikoli]

Because machines are far more easily fooled than magic. Yes you could attempt it, but it would require some special cyberware connections, encephalon, memory, possibly an inducer to mentalize the inputs, either a special voice-stress skill or a program to simulate it, some serious micro-vision cyber, etc.

[Siege]

At the risk of derailing this thread -- while empathic sense would give you an edge on someone, voice stress analysis, enhanced olfactory and arguably thermo would still provide a pretty cutting edge evaluation technique.

-Siege

[Nikoli]

Of course, I'd also like to see some Way of Magic phys ad only spells in the next version. Or empathic sense opened up as an edge.

[Req]

[Nikoli]

Fair enough. Magic can be fooled by intent, but this isn't a spell, per se.

[Siege]

Right, but the person "reading" the magic could also be fooled.

Trying to read the emotional content of a sociopath or a psychopath would provide potentially different readings than, say, a normal person.

The responses to stimuli are different and have to be interpreted.

I would imagine a professional Johnson undergoes biofeedback training to develop the ultimate pokerface. (yes, please no Johnson jokes)

-Siege

[Nikoli]

That could be a good idea for an active skill, similair to the skill sim-sense stars pick up to emote the proper track for the recording.

[Siege]

You mean like "Acting"? :grinbig:

With the advent of simsense tech, simsense starlets just have to learn acting on a whole new level.

Or they slot the mood-chips to generate the proper emotion at the proper time.

Which, I have to imagine would be pretty damned draining to have someone punching buttons and running your body through a gauntlet of physical/emotional responses.

-Siege

[k1tsune]

[Large Mike]

You know what's needed? Turn to Goo.

[Siege]

[Crimson Jack]

[Taran]

I want more specific rules for noticing the effects of Mind Probe, Control Thoughts, and the like. I have a shaman with some lovely mind magic; as long as he's just pushing gangers around it's no problem, but once he starts messing with the corps he's going to have to be more careful. How much more careful? By the book, there's no way to be sure. Kagetenshi is my GM, so the answer is "really really fraggin' careful", but an actual game mechanic would still be nice.

[Fortune]

[Moonstone Spider]

Mental Adepts:

A concept I came up with a while back but never really tested much. The reverse of a physad, the Mentad (no, not Mentat although it amounts to the same thing) can buy such powers as improve Mental Attribute, Mental Attribute Boost, and improved ability for things like biotech, electronics, or etiquette (My rules said .25 per die for knowledge, language, and b/r skills and .5 for all other active skills linked to a mental attribute).

Powers also included the ability to fog the memory of others and powers that acted like the spells "Mind probe" "Control Emotion/thought/action" and "detect intelligence" with no drain.

Other powers were similar to the critter powers influence, fear, and glamour.

[Nikoli]

Reason being, no other caster has the mind set for magic that the casting phys ad does. They have a unique outlook on the magical world.

[Fortune]

[Diesel]

All mages can have a unique outlook on the magical world.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Nikoli]

hehe, nice touch Herald.

Good point about each has it's own world view. Forgot about that point.

[Moonstone Spider]

Getting back to spells, there's a lot of room for abuse with the transformation manipulations. Create Food opens up a lot of possibilities for spells creating things, and better yet it's only S drain and what it creates lasts forever. Were I a gunbunny inclined mage I'd learn Create AV ammo first thing, quickly followed by create grenade, create milspec armor, etc. Since it can be a drag running out of fuel I'd learn create Gasoline. When I get low on Karma I'd whip out my create Gold spell and buy myself a few million nuyen worth of Karma just like spirits do with Create Wealth. Wait, forget gold, I'm learning create Orichalcum instead, So I can make a force 11 transformation manipulation foci and use 100 units of orichalcum to make it absurdly cheap to bond. With that I can create even more and sell it, Then I'd use the Karma to learn even nastier create spells (After 69 initiations in order to have the magic attribute to make such vast objects, quickly followed by a Create Force 25 Power Foci spell and a Create force 50 transformation manipulation spell) like create drone, create Anti-vehicular missile, create aircraft carrier, etc. I'd save the environment by teaching Ecologist groups spells to create manufactured goods so that there's no need to mine or log or do anything else in order to make money off the environment, ushering in a new golden age of peace and endless wealth for all.

Obviously no GM in his right mind would actually allow a player to do this. And neither would I. But it's perfectly legit by the rules.

Another spell that seriously needs fixing is the series of improve reflex spells. Those spells are totally broken, not by their effect but because Improve Reflexes 3 cast at force 99 with 10,000 successes has absolutely identical effects to Improve Reflexes 3 with force 1 and 1 success. Nobody ever learns it at a higher force or uses more than 2 die to cast it with, hence it's drain never applies. The entire series needs to be scrapped and replaced with a single spell where total number of initiative die is linked to successes and force like other spells.

[Kagetenshi]

I'd allow it. It'd be pretty neat, humanity living in peace and tranquility until the Horrors come and eat everyone.
Well, that is to say, I'd allow it if I didn't mind, y'know, the campaign ending.

~J

[BitBasher]

I disallowed all spells that create something from nothing, permanently. Such as create food.

[Nikoli]

My feeling was that food was creatable because food is simple structure, I'd never allow technological or magical items to be created, but say, Amish style clothing made of cotton (no buttons, etc.) would be okay, or hemp rope, etc.

[nezumi]

[simonw2000]

Yes, but people will notice that someone has been dealing in a lot of gold lately...

[Nikoli]

It's little different than teh create wealth power of some critters. JUst make it a hellishly high drain for a PC (we're talking they will likely suffer magic loss from casting it but once) and it will balance out. that money does little good if you keep using the money to buy kara to initiate and get your magic attribute back so you can cast the spell to start the whole cycle over again.

[Reaver]

[Neon Tiger]

Do you really need more crappy spells that no-one uses? I don't think so. There's more than enough spells in the BBB and MiTS, and if you really need soemthing that's not there, hell, that's why the spell design rules are there.

[spotlite]

I've PMed seige, but I wrote a reasonably comprehensive set of adept rules for 'empathic' or 'artistic' adepts. it included new powers and some metamagic, ranging from emotionally 'tweaking' other people using some sort of audible performance, sonic attacks (cost more than killing hands but I didn't go as far as secondary effects though I think it needs it), right up to magically enhanced mnemonic abilities. Certain powers could only be bought if the metamagic was learned.

Anyway, all I'm saying is if anyone wants any ideas on that line, let me know and you can read it over. I was going to use it as the basis for an official submission but got an attack of nerves and chickened out but anyone who wants to is welcome to look.

[Nikoli]

Expanding the metamagic skills would be nice, I think there is a lot more out there that could be axpanded upon.
Like just how useful is centering to a phys ad?
Why couldn't they learn psychometry?
Adding a special form of astral projection (metaplane only) so that aspected magicians and phys ad's could go on spirit quests would be nice

[spotlite]

I would tend to allow an adept who could astrally perceive access to metamagics which would realistically only require that (and maybe a skill other than sorcery) to work, like psychometry.

Centering is INCREDIBLY useful to an adept. They sometimes get more use out of it than magicians do! The basic centering grants them a significant advantage, then they can learn it again for melee combat skills, again for ranged combat skills and on for most physical skills. It doth rock. A decent grade physad with a few lots of centering can do some truly staggering things!

[Nikoli]

Good to know. Though expensive to learn. Gotcha

[spotlite]

Should say - *I* would allow them to learn psychometry. I'm not sure whether the book does.

and adepts on the spirit way - i.e. shamanic physads - can at GMs discretion go on quests if their totem takes them.

The rest just have to do it the hard way. I've seen various house rules about an adept power of astral projection with a prerequisite of buying astral perception power as well, costing 6 power points. This is a fairly standard take on it from what I can tell for people who allow it (I don't). So a starting character couldn't do it cos they couldn't have both powers with the points they have available. But its a reasonably balanced house rule. 6 magic points is a LOT of karma and points saved up.

[Kesh]

Don't really need many more spells. However, new magic rules would be useful.

Spell matrices.

A real psionics magic variant, instead of the bad jokes about "Focus and clear your mind!!!1!" nuts. Or at least a more 'neutral' magic practice... something more akin to instinctive spellcasting than god-based (shamans) or book based (hermetics).

More fun physad abilities. Wall-running would be neat. ;)

Advance the metaplot a little. Bug spirits, shedim, Horrors, so forth...

[Kagetenshi]

An idea for psionics without changing the nature of magic in SR...
Because of their approach to magic, psionicists don't need to learn spells. They can cast anything.
They also take übernasty drain for everything unless they take a long time to cast it. If they take their time (primitive Matrices?) they can potentially get it down to the level that their normal counterparts would take casting it.

Disclaimer: not entirely thought through for balance.

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

My take on the idea Kag made:
Psionics can learn a spell in 0 time without a need for research materials. In addition to the normal tests, the psionist must make a willpower test at the force of the spell to "realize the inner strength" or something like that.

This makes a very stubborn psionic the ultimate at improvisation once it has a dozen or two unused karma.

[Kagetenshi]

I like the changes. Add in a rule for how frequently someone can try to relearn the same spell and a few other tweaks (or potentially allow people to retry as much as they want but make them pay karma every time) and a few other things and you've got yourself a decently-balanced character type, I think. I may have to playtest it at some point.

~J

[Moonstone Spider]

[moosegod]

I think food passes my sense test because it's a common substance that all living things instinctively understand. Creatures have no real conception of gold- that's a created concept. Munitions are the same, only moreso.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Magic does not work on molecular complexity. If it did, toxic wave would be about 24 drain levels higher than an area effect metal manipulation.

Magic does work on conceptual complexity. "Food" is an instinctive concept, APDS is not. Much like how the OR is based not on the molecular complexity, but on a level of how far removed it is from nature. Create APDS could be feasible, but the TN would be at least 12 without any condition to insure it is the proper size for the gun.

[moosegod]

BLAST! The horror-lover agrees with me!

[GunnerJ]

RE: Mental Adepts and Psionist rules upgrades, allow me to whore out my shit agian...

Mental Adepts

A stab as improving psionists... and other stuff

[Neon Tiger]

Make Psionists Aspected i.e. they only cost 25 BP and get 35 power points at chargen. Let them astrally project though, they really don't need more restrictions. Remember, they can't use any foci and cannot take any "mystical" geasa.

[GunnerJ]

Here's an idea: to make up for the fact that they can't cast some types of spells, give them the Centering metamagic for free and without the need for a linked artistic skill. This is justified by the idea that they can make their powers work better by focusing all the energies of their mind...

[RangerJoe]

But only if they accept the chant geas. Every time they want to focus their psionic powers, they must intone, "Your mind is an open book to me!!!"

[Crimson Jack]

Seriously though, "Mind Bullets" should be a new spell made exclusively for Psionists.

[Fortune]

I disagree with the idea of buffing up the Psionicist. They are gimped for a reason.

[Crimson Jack]

It's time for a new age... the Psion age of Shadowrun. A world of 1-900 faux-Jamaican tarot readers. :P

[GunnerJ]

[Siege]

[Fortune]

[Siege]

Instead of unique spells to classes, SR is rather flexible in allowing players to develop unique spells of their own.

-Siege

[Fortune]

[Siege]

[hobgoblin]

maybe give us a official gecko crawl physical adept power or maybe give us the ability to turn some spells into powers (only with touch or self ranges only maybe). that way we can have physical adepts preforming healing hands and wall crawling while avoiding the messy bits of trowing around fireballs and lightning bolts.

i would allso like to see the return of the astral adept.

i would allso do a small rewrite on the workings of the anchoring metamagic. give a item charges so that you can say stack 3-4 armor spells onto a pin, tie in the detection spell and be ready to roll. that or maybe say that instead of it being one time a sustainable spell is in fact triggerd the moment its cast into the item (caster takes drain at that moment) but is then suspended inside the anchor. now a detection spell or other triggering condition will bring it out of suspension or back into suspension (the detection spell not detecting = spell suspended). this should only work on reusable anchors tho. this way it brings back some of the power of old and makeing it something else then a delayed/mundane sustaining foci.

[Siege]

I don't even object to the idea of adepts casting spells, but the cost should be prohibitive enough to keep physical adepts from crossing into Physical Mages.

The pricing should be something like: 1 magic point per rating of spell.

So if the physical adept has an overwhelming urge to throw a Force 6 manabolt, it'll cost him 6 points of Magic.

A one trick pony, but it has some interesting applications.

Or vary the cost depending on factors -- affect self only, .5/rating, affect others 1/rating.

-Siege

[Herald of Verjig...]

knack

[Siege]

[Herald of Verjig...]

Since any combat spell (or heal or treat) must be bought at the max drain level, that restricts a knack adept to mostly support spells. Some spell effects seem too potent for adepts, but GM has the veto right on any player so that is not a real problem.

[Siege]

[Kagetenshi]

[Kanada Ten]

[Siege]

Shadowrun being inconsistent? <gasp>!

Seriously though, in big flaming letters, it is written "Magic Works This Way."

This way includes Hermetic, Shaman and Adepts schema and variations of that -- including aspected casters.

Anything else is a weakened derivative and doesn't function at full capability. Does it make a lot of sense? Not really.

Like most gamers here, I could rationalize it. One argument is even the most paranoid delusional shares a certain fundamental grasp on reality, albeit tenuous and not necessarily the same rules but there are still consistencies.

Disbelieving in a bullet will still get you shot, no matter delusional you are. Now, apply the concept of physics as a constant to SR which holds magic as a similar constant. Although a better example might be the idiots who watch gangsta movies and hold their pistols horizontally instead of vertically. They can still fire a bullet, but it's not as effective or as effecient as more traditional schools of thought.

Working against the flow of nature and natural magic produces a weakened result -- hence the psionic who creates a schema for his mind to comprehend the forces at work and battles not only self-imposed limitations but also the withered result of insisting something that isn't quite so.

Argument two: That's just the way it is. Why do humans breath oxygen? Why not helium? They're both gases, right?

How's that for spontaneous bull-drekking? The simple fact of the matter is: it's that way because the writers envisioned it thus.

-Siege

Edit: Interesting point Kan -- how many GMs have Totems who interact with their Shamen and provide direction and purpose?

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Siege]

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Siege]

GRRR.

"Why don't humans breathe Xenon or Argon as a substantial portion of their gas intake instead of Oxygen."

-Siege

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Siege]

[RangerJoe]

A neat high-level new adept power I'd like to see would be "disbelieve" (from Deadlands). At high enough levels (I'm thinking like 5-8 power points), the master can make a willpower(8-14) test to disbelieve in anything-- bullets flying towards him, an arrow in flight, that giant ant spirit. If the object is disbelieved in, it cannot harm the adept. Sure, this is game-breaking, but it's a nice mechanic for making a master adept one with the universe.

[Glyph]

If you want someone who dislikes magical "belief" systems but hasn't gimped himself with a limited view of what magic is capable of, play a chaos mage.

As far as the "why aren't shamans gimped?" question, I would answer - a lot of Totems are gimped, some of them (like Dove) so much so that you would rarely, if ever, see a player play one. You have ideals to follow (you won't see a Sun or Dragonslayer shaman kidnapping babies from an orphanage for a corporation to experiment on), Willpower tests at inconvenient times (like if your Fenrir shaman needs to run away from overwhelming odds, or your Gator shaman needs to stop trying to open the MagLock and run away), and odd restrictions or codes of conduct. Now, some of them have advantages to offset this, but they still have disadvantages, plus if you don't follow the overall credo of the Totem, you could lose all of your magic permanently.

I don't really see a Totem as an actual entity, more as a concept. When they show up, it is usually in a dream or a vision, and their advice is usually cryptic. GMs who play a Totem as this big being telling the shaman what to do all of the time is railroading in the worst manner possible. Shamans have a code of behavior, within which they have a lot of lattitude - a Dog shaman can be a gentle medic or a hardened fighter, but neither one of them would betray their group for a payoff.

[GunnerJ]

When I asked what the reason was, I thought that they had soem overwhelming power which their limited spell categories made up for. I understand the in-game reason why they're gimped, though.

That said, even if the thought form has no domain restriction and can be summoned anywhere, their very limited abilities and the fact that only one can be active at a time means that they don't make up for the limited spell categories. The thought form balances itself out with limited abilities.

Also, shamans are gimped by their totem restriction, but buffed in other ways to balance this. My idea about giving psionics free centering was an attempt on my part to buff for balance.

[hobgoblin]

about that adept "power" of mine, siege picked up on the one thing i forgot to cover, cost in power points. you will asllo see that i limited spells to touch and self only, so no spellslinging within los (remeber that a adept is focused on his body so its in a way a selflimiting focus). sure he could learn to toss a fireball but that would be a touch spell so maybe its not a good idea :)

as for cost, siege is right on it, .5 pr level for self only and 1 pr level for touch spells.

[Siege]

[hobgoblin]

if you want a adept that can toss a fireball then make a physical mage (or whatever its called). i just want a way to make spider-man :) (gecko crawl fits nicely here) without being tempted to take something that can potentialy not fit the image (like above said fireball)...

[hobgoblin]

-double post-

[Siege]