Mundanes vs. Spirits, Killing spooks without SnS Options

[Tyro]

I want to ban SnS in my games, but it seems to be the go-to method for spirit killing when your mage isn't available to do so. What other ways would you suggest mundanes kill spirits? I'm looking for house rules as well as RAW techniques.

I use the following houserule: ItNW armor is equal to 1.5 * spirit Force (not double as RAW), rounded down, and gives auto-hits as well as adding to any other sources of armor (replacing the normal "ping ping SPLAT" rule, but only for spirits and other creatures with ItNW).

Maybe a weakness for every spirit type? I can see going after fire spirits with water cannons; what about using frost to kill plants?

[Neurosis]

I want to ban SnS in my games, but it seems to be the go-to method for spirit killing when your mage isn't available to do so. What other ways would you suggest mundanes kill spirits? I'm looking for house rules as well as RAW techniques.

I use the following houserule: ItNW armor is equal to 1.5 * spirit Force (not double as RAW), rounded down, and gives auto-hits as well as adding to any other sources of armor (replacing the normal "ping ping SPLAT" rule, but only for spirits and other creatures with ItNW).

Maybe a weakness for every spirit type? I can see going after fire spirits with water cannons; what about using frost to kill plants?

IMHO especially with your house rules APDS is the ammo of choice versus spirits. Sniper rifle with APDS = ItNWN (Immunity to Normal What Now?). Assuming that with your house rule (now that we're not discussing RAW) the AP would also cut through the auto-hits.

[Tyro]

IMHO especially with your house rules APDS is the ammo of choice versus spirits. Sniper rifle with APDS = ItNWN (Immunity to Normal What Now?). Assuming that with your house rule (now that we're not discussing RAW) the AP would also cut through the auto-hits.

APDS is pretty hard to get, though. What else works? Grenades, I suppose... *thinks*

[Megu]

If we're houseruling things anyways, I still think the idea of the Attacks of Will has promise; it's just too weak in its current form.

[Tyro]

If we're houseruling things anyways, I still think the idea of the Attacks of Will has promise; it's just too weak in its current form.

I agree on both points. How would you fix it?

[Summerstorm]

Hm... APDS is good. Availibility is no problem anymore (per RAW i mean), it just needs a few days and you got it. (Really... extended tests are just plain weird. We need to make them Threshold/base time again).

For "fixing" attacks of will. Choose one of these:

1. Attacks are made with Will+Essence (or magic). Representing your ability to shun the intruders on YOUR plane of existance. The more you are connected with the real self, the more you can dish out.

2. Allow mundanes to learn "banishing" and make attacks with Will+Banishing. Representing your knowledge of the essence of spirits and ability to take it apart.

3. Alter the whole mechanic and make it some kind of extended struggle. Pitting maybe your magic, edge or essence against the force of the spirit.

[Tyro]

I like the Will + Essence bit; the trouble is, runners tend to be either cybered or magical. The magical can kill spirits with spells (magicians & mystic adepts) or weapon foci (adepts & mystic adepts). The cybered don't generally have a whole lot of Essence.

[The Jopp]

Excessive kinetic force always works. This of course depends on your game. A F4 spirit is pretty powerful against “normal” guns with damage around 4-6 and when you go towards F5+ then you really start to need hardware.

Anything with lots of damage and a little AP will do the trick.

Elephant rifle with Ex-Ex is at 10P AP-2 and would take down most spirits, especially if it is modified to SA mode to fire two shots in a single IP.

Eishiro Hatamoto II as an extra underbarrel pistol loaded with a Shock Lock round will do 8P AP-2.

Even a Slivergun is useful since it is all based upon the damage of the weapon to counter immunity. 8P is damn good for a pistol and you can use BF, sure the +5 armour can be annoying in the end but they will not be immune.

Elemental Weapon Damage 6 Spirits

Trickier and depending on what the GM classifies as an opposing element and the fact that some opposing elements are impossible to have as a mundane weapon.

[Tyro]

I think making spirits harder to summon (F*2, making summoning drain the same as that for binding) should also help. Do you think this is excessive?

[Makki]

get a flamethrower or an ares redline laser, but done brag about it.

[Faraday]

SNS rounds might be bad, but what's keeping your PCs from packing tasers? 6 to 8S(e) with half AP is SCARY good, even with crappy range and ammo cap. They're also pretty concealable, street legal, and cheap.



I actually like the idea of mundane characters not being prohibited from taking certain magic-linked skills. There should be limitations, though. Countering by mundanes would be limited to a personal effect, banishing would work as normal (not that amazing in the first place), and binding/summoning could probably be used by mundanes to help a friendly caster. Most other magical skills are only useful to awakened folks or require having certain abilities.

[Lansdren]

Well flamethrowers against Water spirits and Plant spirits should be good, and maybe watercannon against Fire and Earth.

I cant think of any weakness for the Air though and add man and beast into the mix make it more tricky for weaknesses.


I kind of like the idea of some old guy whos seen it all and been to hell and back, walks in and takes out a spirt with little trouble mostly due to packing the right ammo for the right spirt.

[Dakka Dakka]

Trickier and depending on what the GM classifies as an opposing element and the fact that some opposing elements are impossible to have as a mundane weapon.

You don't even need opposing elements. A flamethrower is a good weapon against all spirits, by RAW even fire spirits. While they don't bypass the immunity it still is a 8P AP -half weapon. Of course against water spirits they are especially destructive (12P, no immunity)

@opposing elements: Thematically this might work, but not necessarily mechanically, because not all "elements" may be weaponized equally well. While breathing heavily at an earth spirit might give mundanes a bit of a chance against such a spirit, throwing rocks at an air spirit of equal force is much more effective, and the flamethrower against water spirits is the most devastating.

[Ascalaphus]

The AP route to get past ItNW always seemed cheesy to me, even though I see the need from a game balance perspective. I'm pondering the following:

- Delete SnS; for long-range Stun, use needleguns or something. Close-range you've got tasers. There's no need for something that's better than either of those.
- ItNW reduces nonmagical damage by it's rating (F*2), and AP doesn't factor into this in any way.
- Spirits of F4-6 use Edge to resist summoning and binding, making them rarer and not so attractive for mages to spam as mooks. With an Appeasement ceremony this can be prevented, but that takes time and money.
- Spirits of F7+ always use edge to resist summoning and binding.
- All spirits have an Allergy to something.

As you can guess, I'd like Spirits of F6 to be relatively badass, not mid-range. F3 spirits should be useful, but they're not too impossible to destroy.

[Eisenbeiß]

What about the Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle with the errata-addendum? -half Armor, AP -4 and 9P Damage should be enough for almost every spirit (Force < 12 following the standard rules) I can imagine.

This post has been edited by Eisenbeiß: Sep 14 2010, 11:20 AM

[Dakka Dakka]

The AP route to get past ItNW always seemed cheesy to me, even though I see the need from a game balance perspective. I'm pondering the following:

- Delete SnS; for long-range Stun, use needleguns or something. Close-range you've got tasers. There's no need for something that's better than either of those.

The houserule that started it all.

- ItNW reduces nonmagical damage by it's rating (F*2), and AP doesn't factor into this in any way.
- Spirits of F4-6 use Edge to resist summoning and binding, making them rarer and not so attractive for mages to spam as mooks. With an Appeasement ceremony this can be prevented, but that takes time and money.
- Spirits of F7+ always use edge to resist summoning and binding.
- All spirits have an Allergy to something.

Houserule upon houserule to rebalance the first IMHO. You should ask yourself if all those rules actually add anything to your game. Unless something is completely broken I like to keep it simple i.e. no houserules.

As you can guess, I'd like Spirits of F6 to be relatively badass, not mid-range. F3 spirits should be useful, but they're not too impossible to destroy.

Except for some especially effective Powers Force 3 spirits are pretty mediocre. 6 dice for most tests isn't that great.

What about the Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle with the errata-addendum? -half Armor, AP -4 and 9P Damage should be enough for almost every spirit (Force < 12 following the standard rules) I can imagine.

This weapon is not widely available and pretty illegal, so it is not an option for many mundaes, but if you can get it, then it is great.

[Blade]

I think making spirits harder to summon (F*2, making summoning drain the same as that for binding) should also help. Do you think this is excessive?

That's what I do in my current campaign. It avoids having mages easily summoning spirits who are just better than them in nearly everything.

[darthmord]

I have to say that in previous editions, elementals having an opposing element weakness was useful. But anytime my runners went up against a high Force Spirit (6+), they pulled out the heavy weapons. I'm not talking a bigger pistol or rifle. They pulled out the autocannons, missiles, etc.

They followed the idea that if 1 pound of C12 is good for hardened objects, 10 pounds must be great.

Bringing extra kinetic force to a fight was never a bad idea if you expected hardened resistance. Then again, many of my players' heavy cyber monsters could hit physically with 9+ DV (if they had been made under SR4 rules but with SR2 guidelines for stat caps and such).

Thing is a lot of the spirit issues have come up since stats got a hard cap. Under SR2, you could exceed racial maximums if you paid a large price in Good Karma and/or had a lot of cyber. Doing so made tough spirits manageable for mundanes even though they were still dangerous.

Under SR4, you cannot exceed those limits which had a collateral effect of making tough spirits exceedingly dangerous.

Some of the rules changes in SR4 have caused these very problems we are discussing.

[sabs]

The way to deal with Spirits for Mundanes. Bigger Guns.

I would expect regular security guards to switch to burst fire. Short Burst, and then Long Burst if available on the guns they're packing. If possible, the guards pull back to a hardened point with a mounted Machinegun or mini-chain gun. HRT shows up with assault canon, heavy machine guns, assault rifles with FA mods.

+3/+5/+9 DV from Short, Long, and Full Auto narrows would go a long way towards dealing with spirits and ITNW.

Drones showing up with back mounted Light Machine Guns, packing ex-ex.

A security Guard, packing an Ingram Smartgun X, with ex ammo.
DV=5P+1P+9P(full auto)=15dv.
Lets assume your average trained mook.
Agi: 3
Firearms: 2 spec (submachineguns) +2
Smart Gun: +2
(TacNet?) anywhere from 0-3 would not be unrealistic in a Spyder controlled facility.

Attack DP: 3+2+2+2 = 9
Recoil: 9-3 = 6
Final attack DP: 3
He's using Edge: lets call it 3. (I would argue a human guard might have 4)
Now he's got 6 dice with exploding 6's

Against even a Force 6 spirit, that's even odds of hitting it. And if the Spirit goes on Full Defense instead. Sure, he's not going to hit it. But who gives a damn, it's on full defense. We're trading Lead for staying alive until the big boys show up with enough firepower (or mages) to take care of the problem.

Rocket Launchers with 14P Frag Loads. Specially created 'choke points' with High Explosive booby traps.

Mundanes have options. It's called being prepared. And in a world where Spirits summoned by shadowrunners are a real concern. They really would be.

[Semerkhet]

Following on what Sabs just said: My mundane runners never have a problem with spirits. If anything I feel like buffing ItNW. The street sam in the group wouldn't be caught dead packing 'regular' ammo. He's got a couple of custom handcannons that, with APDS, tear a Force 6 spirit to shreds in a couple shots.

I acknowledge that if your runners are brand new or you are just plain running a 'street' campaign where APDS is hard to get, then spirits can be a problem. For professionals, I just don't see where all the controversy comes from.

[Ascalaphus]

The houserule that started it all.
Houserule upon houserule to rebalance the first IMHO. You should ask yourself if all those rules actually add anything to your game. Unless something is completely broken I like to keep it simple i.e. no houserules.

The OP was about how to remove SnS without spirits getting out of control.

So, if you accept the premise that SnS will be deleted (and if you don't, then why do you post in this topic), what comes next?

Personally, I feel the SnS workaround to ItNW is cheesy and I'd like to get rid of that; it doesn't sit with the way I feel ItNW should work. But will just deleting SnS make spirits overpowered?

[The Jopp]

+3/+5/+9 DV from Short, Long, and Full Auto narrows would go a long way towards dealing with spirits and ITNW.

AFAIK you do not add BF/FA modifiers to the damage code when calculating against the hardened armor rules. If you face a F4 spirit then you need to gain a damage above FX2 with Base Damage Code+Ammo Modifiers.

In those situations you are better off with packing a heavy singular punch than using a BF/FA weapon.

[Semerkhet]

But will just deleting SnS make spirits overpowered?

No.


Who are we worried about? The low-level security mooks? I guess spirits are a bit overpowered compared to them, but so are heavily armed and armored shadowrunners.

For professional shadowrunners? Spirits aren't overpowered at all, imo.

I haven't had to make a judgment call on SnS in my game because the PCs don't feel like they need to use it against spirits. If I was required to make a judgment call I'd say that SnS does not work against spirits. They don't have a nervous system to shock.

[sabs]

There are plenty of mundane ways to deal with Spirits.
If you're the security expert hired to design a facility that can withstand up to X threat level, and you didn't consider spirits of X threat level. You're not doing your job. Shadowrun has spirits, spirits are hard to kill, and dangerous.

Where is your own spirits with guardian. Where are your drone mounted hard points with firepower. Where is your choke point corridor with directional claymores in the walls. Where are your wards.

[Megu]

I agree on both points. How would you fix it?

I've been going with Summerstorm's second idea for now, allowing Banishing for mundanes for the sole purpose of Attacks of Will.