Void between "Bad" and "Good" magic traditions Options

[Machiavelli]

Actually i read the topic about the blood mages and the bounty that is set on a verified blood-mage. This brought back the question to me, where exactly you can draw the line between these two sides of the force. Practically everybody can learn the blood-magic rituals, no matter of his tradition and i admit that the benefits are good, but it is nothing they deserve to be hunted down more than every other shadowrunner. Ok, usually you kill people in self-defense or because you have a corresponding job, but death is death so why is there this extraorbitant bounty? Black mages do everything for their personal power, they deal with every kind of dark spirit to enhance their abilities and this entities also include e.g. draining of essence, karma and the like. Voodoo priests raise the dead and i haven´´t heard about a bounty on neither of these groups. Maybe i am too apathetic to see a problem here, but except that they kill people to reach their goals, i see no reason for that head-money.

[InfidelZombie]

I think that the bounty on blood magic is more based toward the spirits they can summon. Say they summon a force 6 spirit. Now say that spirit uses essence drain on a person. Now it's force 7 (Or however many essence it drains), say it drains another person, now it's force 8+. This can quickly lead up to a spirit beyond the casters control, and a bloody fun time is had by all.

[Machiavelli]

A guardian possession spirit with immunity to normal weapons, additonal worn armor, physical attributes at racial max, counterspelling and an assault rifle causes more fear to me than a blood spirit.

[The Jopp]

I’ve always been torn about that.

In essence it should be about the casters outlook on life basically.

Bloodmagician paramedic that uses scarring of himself to cast magic
Bloodmagician paramedic that sacrifices one victim to save another

Radiation mage that is a nuclear physicist and use it for research
Radiation mage that is a nuclear plant maintenance employee that use it to make sure the reactor stays stable
Radiation toxic mage that use radiation to kill people and want the world to burn in a nuclear fire

I find the magic section to be a bit badly written that puts en elemental effect (radiation) directly into the “evil” category and not as something that “could” be corrupted.

Not to mention, if radiation is evil, who would ever want to get close to any chaotic radiating source…like the sun…And don’t tell me that the sun would NOT be a place for radiation and fire spirits – and would they fight or work together?

New metaplot: Solar Civil Spirit War

[Thirty Second Ar...]

Bloodmagician paramedic that sacrifices one victim to save another

Something like this, maybe? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

Don't forget: the bounty on blood spirits is a draconic plot.

[Machiavelli]

It is nothing else than a conspiracy theory. Made from shamans and other ridiculus traditions.^^

[InfidelZombie]

A guardian possession spirit with immunity to normal weapons, additonal worn armor, physical attributes at racial max, counterspelling and an assault rifle causes more fear to me than a blood spirit.

Sure you may be worried about a possession spirit with racial maximum stats, extra armor, and a AK97. But say a blood spirit gets a hold of some poor un-augmented sap and decides to drain him dry. At 6 essence, that force 6 spirit would elevate to a force 12. Now say a blood mage let the little guy loose in a place like Kwoloon City, or some other over populated Slum where a few missing people won't raise eyebrows and you start to see the issue. The spirits drains and kills 3 people, now you have a force 24 spirit to deal with.

[The Jopp]

The spirits drains and kills 3 people, now you have a force 24 spirit to deal with.

And after that the summoning mage is no longer a problem as the F24+ spirit is now a universal force in its own right and have started a small criminal empire and sent out hitmen to kill the mage...

[Mooncrow]

Sure you may be worried about a possession spirit with racial maximum stats, extra armor, and a AK97. But say a blood spirit gets a hold of some poor un-augmented sap and decides to drain him dry. At 6 essence, that force 6 spirit would elevate to a force 12. Now say a blood mage let the little guy loose in a place like Kwoloon City, or some other over populated Slum where a few missing people won't raise eyebrows and you start to see the issue. The spirits drains and kills 3 people, now you have a force 24 spirit to deal with.

The spirit is limited to raising it's force to 1.5 times it's original summoned value.

[Machiavelli]

Good point.^^ My future as a black-blood-mage is going to start....NOW.^^

[InfidelZombie]

The spirit is limited to raising it's force to 1.5 times it's original summoned value.

Can I get a page reference on that, I can't seem to find it in Street magic under Energy Drain, or Blood Spirits.

[Smokeskin]

Actually i read the topic about the blood mages and the bounty that is set on a verified blood-mage. [...] Maybe i am too apathetic to see a problem here, but except that they kill people to reach their goals, i see no reason for that head-money.

Most people who kill others only do so when it is directly related to their goals. They kill competitors, threats, snitches, etc., but if there's no reason to kill someone, they don't.

Blood mages kill people in the pursuit of any goal. Anything blood mages do, they do better if they gut a few bystanders on the way.

It is like the difference between the fast food corp that will kill when there's a solid profit to be made from it, and the fast food corp that sells baby burgers.

[Aerospider]

Black mages do everything for their personal power, they deal with every kind of dark spirit to enhance their abilities and this entities also include e.g. draining of essence, karma and the like.

Making deals with dark spirits to increase one's own power is not in itself illegal or immoral. In these circumstances the spirit is free and therefore its own entity, whilst blood mages are responsible for blood spirits in their service.

Voodoo priests raise the dead

No they don't, they just think they do. The Big D would certainly have known better.

[Aerospider]

Radiation mage that is a nuclear physicist and use it for research
Radiation mage that is a nuclear plant maintenance employee that use it to make sure the reactor stays stable
Radiation toxic mage that use radiation to kill people and want the world to burn in a nuclear fire

Radiation isn't a tradition, it's a toxic mentor spirit which is right and proper. What sanemagician could follow its warping and carcinogenic principles?
Also, I don't think the book does draw a good/evil line in magic (much) – it's more a case of not-twisted vs twisted.

Not to mention, if radiation is evil, who would ever want to get close to any chaotic radiating source…like the sun

Um, the same people who want to get close to it in RL? I.e. nobody?

…And don’t tell me that the sun would NOT be a place for radiation and fire spirits – and would they fight or work together?

Check out the rules for mana voids and you'll conclude that they'll just simply die together. It's many millions of miles from the closest life forms (unless there's some very strange fluff I've not read) and you need life to create a mana field, without which anything magical suffers immensely.

[Mooncrow]

Can I get a page reference on that, I can't seem to find it in Street magic under Energy Drain, or Blood Spirits.

Street Magic, page 140

I have the second printing, so there may have been errata if you have an earlier version.

[InfidelZombie]

Much appreciated thanks! Still though, if a blood mage killed enough people theoretically he could summon a high level spirit. force 9-12 is nothing to sneeze at.

[The Jopp]

Radiation isn't a tradition, it's a toxic mentor spirit which is right and proper. What sanemagician could follow its warping and carcinogenic principles?

You misunderstand me, very few GM's would allow a magician to have spells witha radiation elemental effect as it by RAW is mostly connected to a toxic mentor spirit.

By it's definition in the book the very elemental effect of radiation have been classified as something "evil" and not a natural element.

And I would also call the sun a "limited" life generating field or a "living" metaplane for fire and radiation spirits

Yes, i know, RAW doesnt really cover that but it's not entirely unreasonable.

[Machiavelli]

Making deals with dark spirits to increase one's own power is not in itself illegal or immoral. In these circumstances the spirit is free and therefore its own entity, whilst blood mages are responsible for blood spirits in their service.


No they don't, they just think they do. The Big D would certainly have known better.

That is not the point. The point is that people die because of the mage practicing their tradition. Does it really matter if you die because the mage wants to reduce drain (which separates him from all other common person if she sees it) or if you die because of a spell etc.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

While most shadowrunners might not know the reason, and many Magician can even say they get VERY frightened when they enter an aspected background of Blood Magicians, the main reason Big D put the bounty was because he knows that Blood Magic is related to the Horrors.

[Game2BHappy]

Bloodmagician paramedic that uses scarring of himself to cast magic
Bloodmagician paramedic that sacrifices one victim to save another

Radiation mage that is a nuclear physicist and use it for research
Radiation mage that is a nuclear plant maintenance employee that use it to make sure the reactor stays stable
Radiation toxic mage that use radiation to kill people and want the world to burn in a nuclear fire

This is great material! My favorite villains are those that start out with the best intentions.

[Nifft]

That is not the point. The point is that people die because of the mage practicing their tradition. Does it really matter if you die because the mage wants to reduce drain (which separates him from all other common person if she sees it) or if you die because of a spell etc.

Of course it does. Accidental deaths are not as morally terrible as cold-blooded murder.

[LurkerOutThere]

Ok we're getting into a mechanical vs setting disconnect.

Only a very small number of people in the world are capable of teaching blood magic, most are fourth age remnants. Of the fourth age remnants there are those who understand the consequences of blood magic (it hastens the coming of the horrors) and those who don't understand or don't care aboout the consequences. That's latter camp is primarily affiliated witht he upper echelons of Aztechnology/Atzlan, the servants of the smoking mirror. That's why there is the bounty because every blood mage neutralized pushes the world an inch further from the brink.

This next part is a bit more conjecture:
The pro blood magic traditions don't spread it around more because if it did escape their control it could cause a backlash and people might better develop counters.

[Hagga]

I think that the bounty on blood magic is more based toward the spirits they can summon. Say they summon a force 6 spirit. Now say that spirit uses essence drain on a person. Now it's force 7 (Or however many essence it drains), say it drains another person, now it's force 8+. This can quickly lead up to a spirit beyond the casters control, and a bloody fun time is had by all.

Bloody being the operative term.

I’ve always been torn about that.

In essence it should be about the casters outlook on life basically.

Bloodmagician paramedic that uses scarring of himself to cast magic

There's an interesting fictionette (thing) in Street Magic on someone who doesn't quite do that, but goes all the way into dark magic because he can't save one of his patients (his wife).


Also remember that when that force 24 blood spirit is getting it's hopes up, and trying to get to force 24, there is every chance Arleesh or some other GD/IE with a vested interest in that NOT happening will notice and turn up for a brief and friendly conversation on the merits of not being a force 24 blood spirit.

[Neraph]

Meh, the ED/SR crossover things are all conjecture. Possibly based on stuff, but conjecture nonetheless. You have no idea that the SR team will continue that metaplot.

In any event - the bounty on blood mages is not just for the ones that Invoke Blood Spirits: it is on all blood mages that have put themselves on the radar. One may simply be an adept with Cannibalize/Power Bleed, another could be a Mystic Adept with Sacrifice, and another just a mage that extensively uses the Calling rules to summon blood spirits. One could simply be a magician that has no "blood" metamagics but uses a whole ton of blood fetishes.

The thing is that their magic taints them to some degree, and as such the Draco Foundation (IIRC) has a bount out to study the effects of blood magic on the metahuman and the Astral around them.

It does not matter what intent the blood mage has, or what his MO is - the only thing that matters is that the Awakened is a blood mage.