The Cycle of Magic, A Continuity Error? Options

[Semerkhet]

I've long been under the impression that the original Shadowrun authors based the cycle of magic on the Mayan calendar's Long Count. I based this mostly on the text of the speech given by Ehran the Scribe to the Young Elven Technologists, part of which is quoted on AH's site:

"As the last Age of Magic came to a close, the citizens of Atlantis began to disperse from their homeland, carrying their sophisticated technologies and culture to their new homes throughout the world. Only the magic of its inhabitants protected the isle from the forces of Nature, and the Atlanteans knew that as the level of magic in the world dropped, the day would come when their magical protections would fall and Atlantis would sink back into the depths from which it came. That day came on August 12th, 3113 B.C., marking the end of the Fourth World and the beginning of the Fifth."

This date corresponds nicely to the one given in the wikipedia article on the Mayan calendar, which places the starting point of the Long Count at August 11, 3114 (3113 if you use the astronomical calendar).

Then I came across the following sentence in The Darkest Hour, the most recent entry in the Dawn of the Artifacts series of adventures. I've stripped the context out of the sentence to avoid spoilers.

...including the destruction of Atlantis in 9,564 B.C.

What's going on here? Is this just really sloppy continuity editing or is something else going on? Has there been some sort of revisionist history going on and the developers decided that the period of the "cycle of magic" needed to be longer?

[TeslaNick]

Not knowing anything of the source material, it sounds to me that it might be like the destruction of the Great Library of Alexandria. This could refer to any number of events, historical or fictional, including: The Alexandrian War, 48BC; Aurelian's attack during the crisis of the third century; A decree by Pope Theophilus in 391AD; And the muslim conquest during the middle ages.

Perhaps Atlantis was destroyed several times in history before being subsumed by the ocean in 3113BCE.

One note: There was no such thing as "August" in 3113 BC. The month is named after Augustus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Halabis]

Who said that Atlantis was destroyed at the very end of the last cycle? It could have easily fallen at any point in time between the peak (Earthdawn) and the end of the cycle.

[Karoline]

Who said that Atlantis was destroyed at the very end of the last cycle? It could have easily fallen at any point in time between the peak (Earthdawn) and the end of the cycle.

This would be my best guess. Nothing says it couldn't be destroyed before it was sunk, or that it couldn't have been destroyed and then rebuilt and then sunk.

[Cheops]

Who said that Atlantis was destroyed at the very end of the last cycle? It could have easily fallen at any point in time between the peak (Earthdawn) and the end of the cycle.

Earthdawn was not the peak. It was towards the end of the cycle. Atlantis was unnaturally maintaining a higher mana level.

[sabs]

What supposedly happened is that Thera was keeping their island around with special rituals that were trapping Mana on the island. Even as the ebb of magic fell even more. When the Magic fell completely apart, the rituals keeping mana trapped on the island died violently. Destroying Thera completely.

[TeslaNick]

Not completely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

*bows*
YOu are correct, I stand corrected.

You know if the Mayan Calender really is the Magic Awakening Calender, we're gonna feel really foolish sometime in the 2020's.

[Semerkhet]

One note: There was no such thing as "August" in 3113 BC. The month is named after Augustus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Thank you for the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) on that. My otherwise useless History degree was itching to be offended by the implication that I didn't know that.

Who said that Atlantis was destroyed at the very end of the last cycle? It could have easily fallen at any point in time between the peak (Earthdawn) and the end of the cycle.

This explanation doesn't work. By the system promulgated by Ehran the Scribe in-game and the Maya Long Count it steals from, each 'age' of the world lasts approximately 5,200 years. By that logic Earthdawn, taking place a bit after the peak of the 4th Age, took place sometime around 5,000 BCE. Hell, the 4th Age started with its own Awakening in about 8,300 BCE. The date mentioned in The Darkest Hour is actually before that Awakening, in the mundane 3rd Age. So the year 9,564 BCE makes zero sense in the 5,200 year cycle scheme the SR authors came up with, especially since Thera, i.e. Atlantis, wasn't even founded until sometime in the first half of the 4th Age.

Now, I'll admit I've always thought that 5,200 years is too little time for a cycle because it puts the end of the last age of magic too recent, well after the start of real-world recorded history. However, they went with the Maya thing and I've always just accommodated that in my suspension of disbelief; but now I'm unsure what the current authors think the timeline is.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Even taking into account that history began well before the fall of atlantis, most history could be considered legend after a few generations. I mean, most kids today find it hard to believe that TV was something invented just a few generations ago and assume it existed since the dawn of time. Imagine telling your grandson that your own father was a mighty Troll? And the only "proof" you have is a drawn picture? He would call your his "crazy grandpa".
That's the reason we later came to believe it was all legends and myths, there was no real hard evidence to support what came before us.

[sabs]

Well the implication is that the Great Pyramids, and some other stuff are actually Relics of the tail end of the 4th World. As for it being prior to recorded history.

The Current Year in the Chinese Calendar is 4707, so the end of the 4th age is before the current Chinese Calendar.
The Current Year in the Hebrew Calendar is 5771 which places the beginnings of it at the very very end of the 4th world. Which if you look at Ancient Hebrew mythology is quite possible.

If you go to Sumerian traditions the very first recorded history starts at approx 3100 BC. Well after the end of the 4th world. And they're the oldest Eurasian civilization.

If you believe the Chinese Government's controversial Dynasty Count the first written history of China starts in 2070 BC.

From that point of view, everything /seems/ okay.

If we go with 3114 BCE being the date of the End of the 4th Start of the 5th.
With a World lasting ~5200 years.

1st World 23900 BCE
2nd World 18700 BCE
3rd World 13500 BCE
4th World 8300 BCE Earthdawn ~4500 BCE
5th World 3114 BCE
6th World 2086 CE Return of horrors ~3000-4000 CE
7th World 7300 CE
8th World 12500 CE

[Pollux710]

Another thing to consider, though I may just be being a tool here, is the split between publishers, could this have anything to do with the inconsitent lore? Which is, I believe what we are really talking about right? Game lore coinciding with the Mayan calendar?

[Semerkhet]

Another thing to consider, though I may just be being a tool here, is the split between publishers, could this have anything to do with the inconsitent lore? Which is, I believe what we are really talking about right? Game lore coinciding with the Mayan calendar?

You're right. We are, in fact, talking about inconsistent 'lore.' A piece of lore that is pretty foundational to the whole Shadowrun universe. I was a little unclear in my first post, but I was certainly fishing for any freelancers (past or present) or the current developer, like Jason Hardy, to clear up the inconsistency. The whole 5,200 year cycle thing is very well established in Shadowrun (and Earthdawn) lore and I haven't seen anything before that one sentence in The Darkest Hour to indicate the current developer was instituting some sort of stealth retcon. I find it hard to believe that both the author, Stephen McQuillan, and the developer, Jason Hardy, are both ignorant of so fundamental a piece of Shadowrun lore as the Cycle of Magic. So where does that leave us?

As to the timing of the end of the 4th Age under the timeline we understand, I am persuaded to agree with those posters of the opinion that a few generations is all it would take for the metatypes and magical critters to fade into indistinct legend.

[Stormdrake]

I would mention that both the 4th and 5th "world" cycle were unuseally long according to 1st - 3rd ed cannon. I don't believe they said how much longer but the implication was that the 5th world cycle was long enough to contain all of (real) human pre-history. I currently do not have my older ed books with me so I can't list book and page for this idea. Does any one else remember this?

[sabs]

What I remember is that the 4th world magic stabalized for MUCH longer than anticipated.
It was flatlined for at least a 100 years before Throal sent out the Earthdawn.

[Kot]

Erm. The cycle was apparently broken by the Age of Legends, when the magic level decline for some reason stopped. Maybe that's the reason for the inconsistency you find there?

[Stormdrake]

The extended 5th world cycle I believe was a result of the mess that occured in the 4th. These two could explain why the Mayan long count calander does not match with some of SR cannon. The date given for Thera (atlantis) blowing up and others.

[Kot]

Fourth World. Ours is Fifth, ED is Fourth.

[Semerkhet]

I'm aware of the Earthdawn metaplot that Thera was using giant Orichalcum pillars or something to artificially maintain the magic level at a point just after the peak, low enough for most of the really nasty horrors to be gone but high enough for the Therans to perform their greatest magics. I have no evidence one way or the other but I assumed that when this artificial propping up of the mana level ended that the natural cycle sort of rebounded to it's natural shape and the world went from lots of magic to very little magic in a hurry.

So if I'm understanding correctly, Stormdrake is saying that the duration of both the 4th world (Earthdawn & magic) and the 5th world (our mundane recorded history) were both much extended because of the shenanigans the Therans got up to messing with the mana levels in the 4th world?

I mean, it's a nice plausible sounding theory and all, but the 5th world being longer than 5,200 years is still clearly contradicted by Ehran's *published* assertion that the 4th world ended in 3113 BCE. I guess that could still mean that the 4th World lasted for a *really* long time. Does anyone have any documentary evidence of this in published Earthdawn or Shadowrun material?

[Seth]

so...you believe Ehran? On what basis do you put your trust in the elf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

I'm aware of the Earthdawn metaplot that Thera was using giant Orichalcum pillars or something to artificially maintain the magic level at a point just after the peak

Is that the case? I guess it could easily be in-character misinformation corrected elsewhere in canon, but what I've read has indicated that the pillars were mostly made to protect the price of Orichalcum.

~J

[Kot]

Is that the case? I guess it could easily be in-character misinformation corrected elsewhere in canon, but what I've read has indicated that the pillars were mostly made to protect the price of Orichalcum.

~J

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somwhere. I'll ask around RedBrick forums.

[Faelan]

Actually the pillars were never fully explained. Though several were apparent on Thera they were publicly there to show how mighty they were. Of course no one really bought the idea that anyone would have that much Orichalcum laying around doing nothing. Some of the possibilities included that it was part of the rites of protection for Thera. The concept that the pillars might be responsible for the leveling off of magic comes about from the disclosure that there are more of these pillars elsewhere, buried in the ground I believe. This information might be in the Skypoint & Vivane Boxed Set, or the Thera Sourcebook, regardless FASA as usual left it a beautiful little mystery you can mold to your own campaign needs. So there is no official answer however it does strongly hint to the leveling of magic.

[Kot]

Actually the pillars were never fully explained. Though several were apparent on Thera they were publicly there to show how mighty they were. Of course no one really bought the idea that anyone would have that much Orichalcum laying around doing nothing. Some of the possibilities included that it was part of the rites of protection for Thera. The concept that the pillars might be responsible for the leveling off of magic comes about from the disclosure that there are more of these pillars elsewhere, buried in the ground I believe. This information might be in the Skypoint & Vivane Boxed Set, or the Thera Sourcebook, regardless FASA as usual left it a beautiful little mystery you can mold to your own campaign needs. So there is no official answer however it does strongly hint to the leveling of magic.

Thera was sucking out magical resources of multiple provinces, plus wild teritories, plus trade (especially in those precious Rites)... I wouldn't be so surprised, especially since the magic level was high, and they had many Elementalists and Weaponsmiths, who could create Orichalcum out of elemental essences.

[Semerkhet]

so...you believe Ehran? On what basis do you put your trust in the elf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I wouldn't believe Ehran, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It does, however, seem unlikely to me that the SR developers intended the "Ehran to YET" speech, which was released as a part of their catalog updates at GenCon in '89 and '90, as a piece of purposeful misinformation. One of the first lines of the speech is

"What I am about to tell you must remain an Elven secret. I know that the Humans will eventually discover it, but it should be delayed as long as possible."

I can't discount the possibility that Tom Dowd, et al, were yanking our collective chains but if so, they never followed up on it in the remaining years FASA existed. It just got entered into the Shadowrun canon and has been taken as given ever since.

You might get the impression that with this topic I'm saying, "Hey, this is a sacred part of the Shadowrun world and you can't change it!!!!!!" but that's not my intent. I'm genuinely curious, as a gamemaster and looong-time Shadowrun fan, to know if they're making big changes to the lore of the setting. I'm hoping that Jennifer Harding or Robert Derie, who might be in a position to know the truth of the matter, might still be reading DS occasionally. Given the drafts that AH has released regarding the initial development of DoTA, I thought he would know about this change if, in fact, it isn't just a typo.