Dwarf Fortress, Yes, I'm late to the party. Shut up. Options

[Tanegar]

The sheer amount of thought that has gone into this thing boggles the mind. It could never, ever be a commercial product, even if you put a slick GUI on the front end, but damn if it isn't a shining example of what one twisted hermit depraved codemonkey sick hacker dedicated developer can do.

[Seriously Mike]

But if you put ANY useful UI on it, you'd have a sellable indie game. Instead of that impenetrable dreck that requires you to use fartillions of key combinations and no less than three separate programs tapping into the data to even play.

[Tanegar]

After playing some more, I have to agree that the UI has serious design flaws. The Designate, Zone, and Stockpile tools really should be consolidated, and it desperately needs mouse support.

[Adarael]

It kinda has mouse support. Kinda.

I actually offered to do some UI/UX shit for Toady at one point, since we both live in Seattle and I love Dwarf Fortress. But true to form, he said there were more important things to work on, and that he wants it to be his baby without other hands in it. I can respect that kind of dedication, but man. Even if the interface itself wasn't reorganized, the FLOW should be.

[Seriously Mike]

From Paradox, the publisher of Magicka and Europa Universalis, comes: "A Game Of Dwarves". "G.R.D.R.R. Dwarfin" jokes aside, it looks like it'll be complex and fun at the same time, and it will have dwarves and their fortresses.

[CanadianWolverin...]

From Paradox, the publisher of Magicka and Europa Universalis, comes: "A Game Of Dwarves". "G.R.D.R.R. Dwarfin" jokes aside, it looks like it'll be complex and fun at the same time, and it will have dwarves and their fortresses.

I just came across that, nice trailer that shows that they are close enough to the gameplay of DF for it to appeal to those of who desperately wanted in on the crazy stories DF help generate but found the UI to much a flight sim-esque hurdle to surmount.

Video gives more details than the screenshots did http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyexilq-yCA

But I want to be clear on something, A Game of Dwarves isn't the only title to have found some inspiration from Dwarf Fortress (or has claimed to). I'll be the first to admit as well, I did purchase a few of these games and plan to purchase the rest that were inspired by DF:

. Delve Deeper

. Dwarfs!?

. Survivors of Ragnarök (alpha-funding)*

. Towns (alpha-funding)*

It also reminds me, part of the appeal of Minecraft was the aspect that it could get crazy detailed in the future (when I pitched in for my copy of the Alpha and future versions) like Dwarf Fortress.

* Found those on Desura. The other two I picked up on Steam.

It kinda has mouse support. Kinda.

I actually offered to do some UI/UX shit for Toady at one point, since we both live in Seattle and I love Dwarf Fortress. But true to form, he said there were more important things to work on, and that he wants it to be his baby without other hands in it. I can respect that kind of dedication, but man. Even if the interface itself wasn't reorganized, the FLOW should be.

Oh wow. Seriously, he turned you down? Did you meet with him IRL? I am just asking because I recall reading of other offers on his message board to help with mouse support, UI, and graphics but Toad turned them all down. I am pretty sure his donations would sky rocket if he made even mouse support a priority for a while, let alone UI and graphics.

[Stahlseele]

And now, thoughts for food:
If Dwarf Fortress had any kind of useable UI/Graphics, it would have been Minecraft before Minecraft.

[CanadianWolverin...]

And now, thoughts for food:
If Dwarf Fortress had any kind of useable UI/Graphics, it would have been Minecraft before Minecraft.

Pretty much. I know I would have tossed in a donation Toady's way had been able to overcome the UI and barely there mouse support. Tilesets helped overcome the ASCII, I think I used Mayday's. I use Dwarf Fortress Lazy Newb Pack when I feel like wishing really hard once in a while. And have you seen how bad ass Dwarf Fortress looks with Stonesense?! *drools*

[Rastus]

Oi, you kids and yer darned tilesets and nonsense. Real men in my days knew how it was supposed to be done.

[Adarael]

Oh wow. Seriously, he turned you down? Did you meet with him IRL? I am just asking because I recall reading of other offers on his message board to help with mouse support, UI, and graphics but Toad turned them all down. I am pretty sure his donations would sky rocket if he made even mouse support a priority for a while, let alone UI and graphics.

Nah, not in person - via the board. I keep meaning to go to the Bay 12 Meetups, since they're like a mile and a half from my house, but I never do cuz I always have something else going on those days.

[Tanegar]

And have you seen how bad ass Dwarf Fortress looks with Stonesense?! *drools*

In fact, I have. If Toady integrated Stonesense directly into DF and made the game playable from that view, that's a complete game right there.

[Seriously Mike]

. Survivors of Ragnarök (alpha-funding)*

Heh, I confused this one with Terraria, both are 2D and allow all those funky things with blocks. However, as far as this one goes, I believe that an old strategy game called "Diggers" had more to do with it than DF.

. Towns (alpha-funding)*

And that, while being pretty far from DF (at least at first) looks neat on its own. Am I getting this right that there are more towns all over the game world and you can connect them like in SimCity 4 or even in a more advanced way?

Oh wow. Seriously, he turned you down? Did you meet with him IRL? I am just asking because I recall reading of other offers on his message board to help with mouse support, UI, and graphics but Toad turned them all down. I am pretty sure his donations would sky rocket if he made even mouse support a priority for a while, let alone UI and graphics.

...apparently the guy doesn't know what "market needs" are.

In fact, I have. If Toady integrated Stonesense directly into DF and made the game playable from that view, that's a complete game right there.

Stonesense is actually the best visualizer out there. Sure, there's that 3D one, but it's bugged and damn near useless. Stonesense could even be used as main UI if someone wanted it.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Heh, I confused this one with Terraria, both are 2D and allow all those funky things with blocks. However, as far as this one goes, I believe that an old strategy game called "Diggers" had more to do with it than DF.

Haven't heard of Diggers before, I'll have to google that. I was just going from what it reminded me of in addition to who I recalled the Devs said they were influenced by, like what it says in their summary on Desura:
"Survivors of Ragnarök is a city-building-management-survival game inspired by Dwarf Fortress. Manage, create, and survive through dynamic and deadly worlds. Losing is a fundamental core aspect of design."

Remember when DF was just a 2D thing to dig into, not the 3D it is now? Perhaps that is what this is referencing. But I could totally see why it would remind you of Terraria at first glance. I should fire up the alpha again some time, last time I did SoR wasn't even really a game in my estimation it was such an early build but I am fine with that, I remember the early days of Minecraft, I am fine with something actually being in a alpha state when I pitch in for a copy.

And that, while being pretty far from DF (at least at first) looks neat on its own. Am I getting this right that there are more towns all over the game world and you can connect them like in SimCity 4 or even in a more advanced way?

I'm just going on sources like this review I found on Desura where it mentions:
"It is a game with great potential. The gameplay is like DF Lite (If it existed), which is not coincidental because the developers said they had Toady's masterwork in mind while working on this game."
Sorry I didn't find a quote directly from the developers, I'm being lazy in that regard.

Having watched its videos, it does make me think of Dwarf Fortress as well. But I have yet to purchase my copy of this early version, so I don't know if there are more towns. Its more or less a game I am watching from the outside with interest because it recalled it referencing DF as inspiration and it does remind me of DF.

Oh man, if you add up all the money I have spent on (It doesn't add up to much to be honest, Steam and Desura sales are awesome on my limited budget) or plan to spend on things that remind me of Dwarf Fortress, had Dwarf Fortress just been more accessible, I think I would rather have sent that Toady's way - at least from my point of view, even if something is feature incomplete and buggy as hell, if it is accessible I am willing to wait for those features and bugs to get fixed. I love alpha funding.

Oh well, maybe one day Dwarf Fortress, I will feel like I get to access more than just watching the embarking dwarves go mad from the neglect of my confused or lack of instructions as to what they should do with their new found base of operations other than starve/sober up or be eaten by the local wildlife or unlife.

[Adarael]

...apparently the guy doesn't know what "market needs" are.

Oh, he definitely does. Don't mistake not caring with not knowing. Toady is a very smart guy, but he personally would prefer to keep total project control than focus on things he feels are less important and lose control of aspects of the project.

In fact, I have. If Toady integrated Stonesense directly into DF and made the game playable from that view, that's a complete game right there.

Eh, not really. It would improve the visual understanding of users, but that's not the whole of the problem. In my opinion, it's not even the main sticking point. Actually interacting with the things you see is the main problem, as is the organizational structure of all of the menus. The immediate WTFery of what you're seeing is a huge problem, yes, but once you move past that, there's all this stuff you can do but don't know you can access. How is a new player to understand that if they don't have a Cheese Maker but they want to make cheese, they have to enable the Cheese Making job on someone? Maybe they'll have to enable Milking, too. And Animal Care, or the cow will die. Or that they don't even need a cow - they can milk a Camel.

Or say, the difference between zones and stockpiles? After all, garbage can be placed in a garbage stockpile OR a dump zone.

It's that kind of conceptual information organization that remains a huge sticking point even after the visuals make sense.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Oh, he definitely does. Don't mistake not caring with not knowing. Toady is a very smart guy, but he personally would prefer to keep total project control than focus on things he feels are less important and lose control of aspects of the project.

Eh, not really. It would improve the visual understanding of users, but that's not the whole of the problem. In my opinion, it's not even the main sticking point. Actually interacting with the things you see is the main problem, as is the organizational structure of all of the menus. The immediate WTFery of what you're seeing is a huge problem, yes, but once you move past that, there's all this stuff you can do but don't know you can access. How is a new player to understand that if they don't have a Cheese Maker but they want to make cheese, they have to enable the Cheese Making job on someone? Maybe they'll have to enable Milking, too. And Animal Care, or the cow will die. Or that they don't even need a cow - they can milk a Camel.

Or say, the difference between zones and stockpiles? After all, garbage can be placed in a garbage stockpile OR a dump zone.

It's that kind of conceptual information organization that remains a huge sticking point even after the visuals make sense.

I very much agree with this, the visuals are a small sticking point to having clarity on what input and where will result in something closely approximating the desired result. I guess I am spoiled by more polished interfaces, but how ideal would it be to right click on an object so you can bring up a menu of all the things that the dwarves could do to it, possibly with hints or a flow chart to describe that if you click here, you may be able to guide the dwarves to do this or that?

Heck, just feeling like I don't have to relearn what keys do what just about everytime I change to a different menu would be a welcome bit of accessibility, let alone being informative. Does anyone remember those huge cheat sheets we had to use to play flight sims? This feels like I need several of those littered around my keyboard to figure out the DF interface. It is very confusing and cumbersome.

I think I could even get used to the dwarf matrix if one could gather information on what a symbol means and can do more readily.

[Tanegar]

...things he feels are less important...

Less important than improving playability?

[Adarael]

Yes. Playability is, for him, and abstract quality - he could get bogged down improving the "feel" of the game, or he could add more features and make the game do more things.

It's a very programmer-oriented way of looking at development.

[Stahlseele]

Kinda like SR4 versus SR3.
Either you streamline or you have more rules for stuff.

[Seriously Mike]

Sheesh, I played Towns. It's a horrible, horrible clickfest. It's not as clunky as DF, but there are some stupid things that need addressing.

[Adarael]

It's really not even that complicated. It's just a difference of priority. Look at it like this - let's suppose I'm making a game that's large and complex. For the sake of argument, let's say I'm making a game a lot of us are familiar with: Civilization.

Currently the game is in a state where all of the tech trees are only 5 discoveries deep, only 5 types of military units exist, you can't change the production priorities of cities, and there is no diplomacy. All of the art is obviously grossly unfinished. You can still build buildings, invade other people, explore, sail ships around, etc.

Fans who clamor for UI are, as far as Toady is concerned, asking that he focus on developing final art assets before he can even implement things like diplomacy, famous people, full tech trees, Wonders of the World, Multiplayer, etc - not that DF will have any of these, but we're still operating under the Civilization example, here. He thinks this is nonsensical, because that's stuff he wants to worry about after the rest of the game is "done" or at least "done enough", because he recognizes that done is a goalpost that keeps moving further out as he approaches it. It is, from the perspective of a developer - any developer - crazy to focus on polish before all of the major features are implemented. In big game companies like mine, that's not so much of a problem, because art teams can crank on polish while developers and designers implement other things. For instance, we can have the tutorial missions for a given game and the menu and all that done and looking really good while there's no multiplayer, because otherwise we'd be twiddling our thumbs.

But if you're one guy, you gotta set goals and move toward them.

[Tanegar]

Kinda like SR4 versus SR3.
Either you streamline or you have more rules for stuff.

I think that's a false dichotomy in this case. I don't think a proper UI for Dwarf Fortress would have to entail streamlining anything; it's just a matter of presenting information in a way that doesn't make the player's brain hurt.

[Rip the Jackker]

You know, I just realized that the last post in the DF thread was months ago. Ya'll've missed some important, and more importantly huge, updates.

[Stahlseele]

We did?
Tell us more.

[Adarael]

I haven't! I grabbed the DF2012 .11 update a couple of days after it came out and proceeded to create a fortress wherein I named every dwarf after one of my co-workers. But I had to give up on that fort because I was never attacked by anyone, it was peaceful, and nothing bad ever happened. In other words: boringggg.

So this time I did it again in a more threatening region and have enjoyed near constant baby thieves and the occasional War Cave Dragon-enhanced siege, which nearly destroyed me the first time it happened, because I was relying on a floodgate-based front door.

[Iduno]

Does adventure mode work properly right now? Last I remember it was broken for some reason.

Building a huge mazelike fortress with insane death traps and treasure to be found sounds like fun. Who knows if the lever opens a treasure vault, or starts pumping the room full of magma. Maybe both. Plus the automatic traps (or door locking/unlocking) powered by water and pressure plates would make for an interesting environment.



Although attacks being less trivial to defeat would also be nice.