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> Extraterritoriality='s Not Sharing Information?, Functions of Extraterritoriality
Paul
post Nov 20 2011, 09:25 PM
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So one of the entrenched institutions of the Shadowrun is the concept that Extraterritoriality automatically seems to equate to an unwillingness to share information, and an inability to cooperate beyond a basic level between agencies, governments and corporations. This has always bothered me, for a variety of reasons.

Now for some background: I work in a Law Enforcement agency, and I have liaised with a number of local, state and federal agencies as a part of the gang task force I work on. I also have several friends who work for local, state and federal agencies. So this likely colors at least some of how I see things. I just wanted my bias to be upfront-even though I am going to try and take an impartial look at this issue.

So I can see, reasonably, with the fracturing of nation States -and the resulting diminished presence they now have-that Mega Corporations can field nearly similar levels of resources, and given that some of these companies have a good sixty or so years of institutional cultures I can see tensions existing en the various agencies, especially in sensitive matters. Especially where proprietary data, properties and competitive interest's were involved. So there are definitely frayed edges that can be exploited-whether through a combination of proper planning or good luck and timing.

However the way I often read conversations on this board, and the feel I get from the books is that this is so common place that as I see it society would fail to function in any semblance of order. And some of you say, A ha Paul that's the point! Shadowrun is dystopic! It doesn't function like the world we know! And to a point I agree-however it seems to me that unless there's a significant reason not to cooperate there's nothing to be gained from not cooperating. Sort of an oligarchic collective-"It's better that we rule, then them."

So what I'm hoping to do here-with out examining our own present day beliefs and prejudices; politics or personal preferences-is explore just how we collectively see extraterritoriality functioning. What are the ins? The outs? What areas make sense for there to be cooperative efforts? What areas would be anyone's game?
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CanRay
post Nov 20 2011, 10:16 PM
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I view the sharing of information as something that depends on the situation, and politics as they currently are.

Security footage isn't as likely to be shared as information on security protocols might be gleamed from them, which allows competitors to take advantage of them (This is where Shadowrunners get the most help.), but other items might get shared if politics are going well between two Corps.

Corporate and International Politics is a huge issue. Yes, eventually, the info will be shared. It's just how much red tape is thrown up between the two. I do a random roll based on how badly the groups compete and incidents that have happened between the groups, and a threshold based on how sensitive the intel is. More threshold, the faster the scene is given. Less, the more red tape and the time the security agency is willing to put into a manhunt is gone already.

And that's how Shadowrunners are able to slip through the cracks. Just remember, that information will always be available to the owning Corporation, and will eventually be available outside of it as well. Then it's just a Data Search roll away to link things together.

Hope you have a few good Spider contacts, or a really good Hacker/TM.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 20 2011, 10:42 PM
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Another thing to consider is that runners are hired help. Hell, if they fail a mission they may not even get payed.

As such, hitting them spends corporate resources while doing basically little to no damage to the competition.

And also, information shared is information that can't be used to get a runner team to play fetch later on...
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 21 2011, 12:35 AM
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Well, this develops from two directions towards the middle.

On the one hand, there's the setting as described, with paranoid corporations trying to keep an edge by not sharing too much information. Because the other company doesn't share so much either, so how can you be sure their request was really as innocent as they make it seem?
Information will probably be traded rather than given. Maybe more informally, between employees that know each other and help out each others' careers now and then with a strategic favor, than formally.
Crazy things may happen if the legal department advises that granting a request for surveillance footage, may render the corporation liable for any criminal acts visible on that footage ("You saw it happen and did nothing; we're suing you for aiding and abetting!").

On the other hand, we've all got an inkling of the possibilities of RL surveillance, and this will only increase in the future. How can SINners, let alone Shadowrunners, persist? How much room is there to actually play this game, why won't the PCs be relentlessly persecuted?
One of the answers given is Data Balkanization. It's taking the desired conclusion ("the PCs have a chance") and rationalizing backwards until you've come up with a reason why the conclusion happens. It's shady in pure logic terms, but it works if you want to play a game and want to make suspension of disbelief easier.

The one approach starts IC and ends up somewhere; the other starts with an OOC desirable conclusion and finds a way how this might happen IC.
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Glyph
post Nov 21 2011, 01:35 AM
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That's how I read it, myself. Without data balkanization, corporate extraterritoriality, and, on top of that, layers of misinformation and altered footage being fairly common - shadowrunning won't work. Shadowrunners should be able to take a few basic, almost hand-waved precautions, do the run, and, assuming there wasn't any excessive collateral damage or other major screw-ups, lay low for a bit before going on their next run.
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Wakshaani
post Nov 21 2011, 02:48 AM
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Also note that revealing information about your being broken into reveals to the other corps, who are your rivals not your allies, that your security has holes and that you've lost a new product/researcher/whatever.

There's no profit in looking weak.

(As for the corp itself, subsidiaries and the Home Office likely don't get along. Compare the local security team to local police, and the home office boys to teh Feds. How do the local police feel when teh Feds trot in and say "We're here now. Go get us coffee."
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MortVent
post Nov 21 2011, 02:55 AM
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A lot of it would be covering their own butts.

You don't want others to know how hard you just got hit, so unless the runners screw up or do something that can't be swept under the rug so outsiders don't know they are likely going to share it internally only.

Now if the runners drive a bus through the front door, use lots of explosives and automatic weapons causing major damage and deaths. All bets are off

Now a team that gets in and out clean with little to no collateral damage or obvious evidence is likely to be considered an internal matter that isn't going to hit the rest of the world's info nets. Unless the run resulted in a major issue of PR etc (and even then it's going to be a tough decision to admit a team got past the security ... it's a catch 22 legally. they were either a screw up in testing / quality control resulting in deaths/injuries or neglegent in protecting/preventing the incident)
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hobgoblin
post Nov 21 2011, 02:59 AM
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It may help to consider the whole thing a cold war, at the edge of a cuban crisis. Basically the whole thing is balanced a bit like MAD, with the corporate court the one thing that has had any measure of success holding the whole thing from going kaboom.

How much info did USA and USSR share during those times? The hotline was not even installed until the cuban crisis was resolved.
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Tanegar
post Nov 21 2011, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (Paul @ Nov 20 2011, 04:25 PM) *
Now for some background: I work in a Law Enforcement agency, and I have liaised with a number of local, state and federal agencies as a part of the gang task force I work on. I also have several friends who work for local, state and federal agencies. So this likely colors at least some of how I see things. I just wanted my bias to be upfront-even though I am going to try and take an impartial look at this issue.

It's important to remember here that every law-enforcement agency within a given country is fundamentally on the same side (barring political footballing). Ares internal security passing information to UCAS authorities is not the same as a modern-day rent-a-cop agency sharing data with the Seattle PD, it's more like Chinese police passing info to the FBI. Your analogy isn't really relevant.
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Jet
post Nov 21 2011, 04:18 AM
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In the Sixth World I can see cooperation over a big issue (Winternight). Everyone will cooperate and the Corporate Court will see no evil as everyone declares open season on the Global terrorist threat. Soon every eye is peeled for the people with the big universal bounty on their heads and nowhere on the planet is safe.

But as Renrauku what is my incentive to help Ares get back their head R & D gal who was extracted to MCT. Zip. Heck the people who pulled that off are a valuable asset; competent and deniable. Now of course if Shiawaise has access to the same data and the runners burned them a few months ago then it might be worth their while to share with Ares to get some (free) revenge. Assuming that is worth their time and effort. The game assumes that it is generally not, but I agree that the more noise you make and the more mess you leave makes that incentive go up and up. One of the sourcebooks said it very well; we runners live on the sufferance of the powers that be. They hire us as deniable assets to do dirty deeds done dirt cheap (sorry couldn't resist). Governments use us to spy on the corps and the other governments, corps use us to frag over each other and the Corporate court thinks that is just fine because it stops the corps from really fighting and blowing the crap out of valuable assets and customers.

If ever there was a unified world government that wanted to impose its tyrannical order on everyone else then the shadows would be booming. The big corp would pay and the small corps would suffer. Eventually the small fish would band together and take down the big one. If they fail to do so then the big one would win, take over everything then use half the shadow community to wipe out the other half then just not hire anyone else. The acceptable covert assets would be absorbed into the thought police and everyone else would just be a criminal with a bounty on their heads and a minimal amount of work available. The Sixth World will stay balkanized because it is in the corps best interests unless an alien invasion, global disaster, or some wierdness like an invasion of metaplaner monsters that will wipe out all of humanity forces everyone to accept hte authority of an over government.

Sound about right?
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kzt
post Nov 21 2011, 04:28 AM
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QUOTE (Jet @ Nov 20 2011, 09:18 PM) *
But as Renrauku what is my incentive to help Ares get back their head R & D gal who was extracted to MCT. Zip. Heck the people who pulled that off are a valuable asset; competent and deniable. Now of course if Shiawaise has access to the same data and the runners burned them a few months ago then it might be worth their while to share with Ares to get some (free) revenge.

No, it's because they will help you with your issues in exchange. It's actually in the interests of everyone involved in stopping attacks on a corp to see that people who are willing to attack corps get stopped. He doesn't give a shit about what sort of illegal crap someone else in his corp might want to do, what he cares about is that people who are able to attack another corp will eventually attack him.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 21 2011, 04:32 AM
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chain of command may be a issue...
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kzt
post Nov 21 2011, 05:24 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Nov 20 2011, 09:32 PM) *
chain of command may be a issue...

Why should they need to worry their pretty heads about how things get done when they get done? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Saint Hallow
post Nov 21 2011, 05:40 AM
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How often do agencies cross check & share info IRL? I mean, sure... on an ongoing investigation a detective or agent will send browse program looking for any priors, warrants, etc on a person of interest they are currently talking to, but not everyone is scanned & backgrounds done on them every day by multiple sources. An old warrant won't get called up unless the person on it gets caught speeding or something else that demands someone to do a check on them.

Same for other agencies that aren't law enforcement. How often does Medicare records get called up on someone SSN for a credit check? Never... as it has no bearing. Unknown to the person doing the credit check, the person applying on record is a 90 year old grandmother on medicare for cancer & not the 20 year old woman trying to get more credit to get that car.

I think there's a definite lack of inter-connecting communications between groups which is only more enhanced in SR despite the technological advances made in SIN identification.
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CanRay
post Nov 21 2011, 06:40 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 21 2011, 01:24 AM) *
Why should they need to worry their pretty heads about how things get done when they get done? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
In order to ensure they get the maximum props when it goes right, and to have the proper scapegoat if it goes wrong so there's no blowback on them?
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Glyph
post Nov 21 2011, 07:15 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 20 2011, 08:28 PM) *
No, it's because they will help you with your issues in exchange. It's actually in the interests of everyone involved in stopping attacks on a corp to see that people who are willing to attack corps get stopped. He doesn't give a shit about what sort of illegal crap someone else in his corp might want to do, what he cares about is that people who are able to attack another corp will eventually attack him.

I could actually see an informal (and illegal) information exchange between the security chiefs of competing corporations, who could give a damn about the shady dealings of their bosses, and just want to nail those sneaky bastards who keep shooting their men.

But on the corporate level where official information is shared, there would be a lot less cooperation. Shadowrunners are an integral part of how the megacorporations wage war on their rivals. Even if they are not involved, they have no incentive to help one of their rivals which has been attacked by the surrogates of another one of their rivals.
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CanRay
post Nov 21 2011, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Nov 21 2011, 03:15 AM) *
I could actually see an informal (and illegal) information exchange between the security chiefs of competing corporations, who could give a damn about the shady dealings of their bosses, and just want to nail those sneaky bastards who keep shooting their men.
I can just see the Courier run for that, with the Courier being part of the deal. "Here's the drek-head that was the get-away driver for the team that hit you. Poker on Tuesday as usual, Bob?"

One thing I try to push is the idea that "Cop Killers Never Stop Being Chased". Low-end security guards are one thing, AA+ Security, OTOH, have a bit of the "Blue Line" feeling still going, also being the "Police" for their Extraterritorial "Country".

So, yeah... Lone Star is slotted off at Knight Errant for getting the Seattle Contract, and if all the 'Runners did was get some Paydata, they'll throw Red Tape at letting KE get access to their Extraterritorial Parkade. Have KE show proof of some dead NeoNET Security into the mix, and watch how fast that red tape disappears, and Lone Star Goons go in and finds the 'Runners for Knight Errant. ("The Paydata was nowhere to be found, however. They must have ditched it somewhere else. So sorry about that, but at least you have those cop killers to bring to trial."). They'd never let KE just get access to their territory, however, that's just too much to ask for without a warrant from a Corporate Court Judge, that's above their pay grade to determine and the politics of the situation.
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Mercer
post Nov 21 2011, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Nov 21 2011, 08:15 AM) *
Shadowrunners are an integral part of how the megacorporations wage war on their rivals. Even if they are not involved, they have no incentive to help one of their rivals which has been attacked by the surrogates of another one of their rivals.


This is an important point. The megacorps aren't going to band together to get rid of shadowrunners if it's the megacorps (usually through layers of deniable subsidiaries) who are hiring shadowrunners. Ares could use and official team to hit MCT, but then that could easily lead to an all out war between two megacorps. Better to have the deniable assets doing the dirty work in the shadows and if it gets brought to light, all the megas can exclaim I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

The cold war analogy hobgoblin used up thread seems pretty apt to me. The megas are the nations of the time, and their in house security are like the CIA, KGB, MI-6 and so on, with all the double agents and sleepers and so on that implies. Below that are the private contractors, the assets, the burned, the out in the cold and so on whose loyalty is negotiable and the knowledge of which can always be disavowed.

There's also a bit of the "right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing" if the hands are on an octopus that has octopuses for hands. It would be embarrassing for MegaCorp A to help MegaCorp B find out who hit one their facilities if it turns out that the runners were hired by a lower tier, wholly-owned subsidiary of MegaCorp A. If the corporate culture is based around covering your ass, cutting corners, turning a profit at all costs and the only real crime is getting caught, then it doesn't behoove anyone in a position of power to get to the bottom of anything that doesn't directly affect their bottom line.
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 21 2011, 10:16 AM
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If Corp A admits knowledge of some shadowrunners S, then Corp B's lawyers might try to twist that into Corp A being liable for the hit done by S on B last week (even though it's probably Corp C that had it done). Probably, eventually A's lawyers get the case thrown out of court, but that takes a lot of time and money. Better to just keep quiet.

It's amazing how quickly open exchange of information disappears when you involve lawyers.
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nezumi
post Nov 21 2011, 02:20 PM
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Don't forget the culture this is set in.

Imagine you're a member of Seattle PD.

Feds come to visit? Drekholes don't appreciate how Seattle is run. This isn't Boston. Seattle is a cultural island, and operates by its own rules. And when the feds come in, they claim the case as their own and hog all the credit. You'll work with the fed, because you have to, but you're not going to invite him or provide more than you have to, because he's going to do it his, aka the stupid way, without respect for how things are. And when he's done, he'll dump you with the paperwork, while he tacks his name as the officer in charge.

NAN police? You mean the people who stole your family estates out in the Cascades and contributed to the bank failures that followed? Hells to the no. Those boys can sit on it and spin.

Tir police? Hahahahaahaha.

Ares coming through? Hope you're not in this job for justice, because Ares sure isn't. Worse, when you tell your boss you have the case handled and nearly wrapped it up, he comes and tells you to hand it over anyway. Seems like HIS boss is in on a special deal from Ares, and wants to make sure they get the cred for this one.

Renraku/CAT/Whoever? These boys act like you're a corporate espionage team. If it's in-house, you're lucky they even tell you a break-in happened. But they don't tell you what the project was that was attacked, how the intruders got in, how successful they were or anything. Apparently headlines on the screamsheets saying "Renraku Robbed Again" don't help stock prices. To make up for it, if the crime actually doesn't touch anything sensitive, the security team dumps the body on the street and is therefore your responsibility, so they can keep their own numbers low on their weekly reports.


Just culturally, I can't think of a lot of organizations which will culturally see the other guy as friendly. It's like playing Prisoner's Dilemma with a tax auditor. You're going to screw him over at every chance just on principle (and he expects it, so he'll do the same thing to you). I certainly don't see that changing for something as minor as a smash and grab.
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CanRay
post Nov 21 2011, 04:23 PM
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You'd wonder why the old ShadowTalker "SPD" was always whining about Lone Star becoming the "Police" of Seattle.

Whatever happened to SPD, anyhow?
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Warlordtheft
post Nov 21 2011, 07:57 PM
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Yeah, in the 4th ed Seattle Source book I'm suprised he didn't say something about KE. Of course he might have decided to join KE or he might be dead (He'd be at least in his 60's by 2072 iirc).
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Patrick Goodman
post Nov 21 2011, 08:27 PM
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I haven't read this entire thread, but I do remember back in Target: Matrix talking about how the various law-enforcement corps had information exchange agreements, so that a Knight Errant patrol would know that there was a warrant out for your arrest, even if it was a Lone Star-issued warrant. Whether they decided to act on it or blow it off was up to them, but the data was shared...or it was supposed to be.

The LE corps might have a collective rep as knuckle-dragging leg-breakers, but a goodly number of them are involved in LE because, well, they're cops...and cops are cops the world over. I know more than a few working in local government as I do, and I need go no farther than my own brother to ask advice.

YMMV, but some information sharing has been canon for a long time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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stevebugge
post Nov 21 2011, 08:31 PM
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What it really gives the Corps is a lot of flexibility in deciding what information they will share and with whom.
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CanRay
post Nov 21 2011, 08:43 PM
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"The Blue Line" as I put it. Sorry, everyone might not be familiar with that line. It's a connection that all cops seem to have with one another, at least when it comes to the "Flatfoots" on the streets and the Detectives as well. Not sure if it applies to "Brass" or "Suits" or whatever they call them.

In some areas and ways, it's a good thing. Relationships between them are good, information sharing is decent, less pissing contests over jurisdiction as long as the scum gets caught and put away. In other ways it's bad as "Bad Cops" are protected as "regular people have no idea what they go through" (Which in ways is true), a drive to get at "Scum" no matter what the evidence says that they're innocent or not, and other such problems.

Some people refer to the Police as "The World's Largest Street Gang", and, at times, it really does look that way.

I'm sorry if I offended any officers we have here, or family of officers. But they're human just like the rest of us, and there are bad ones out there. And there have been times they've been protected by "Brother Officers" just because they were police officers. And there are some areas where the whole lot of them are corrupt.

But, again, they're human just like the rest of us. There's a lot of good ones that go out day-after-day into situations the rest of the world seems to ignore. They see humanity at it's worst a lot of the time, and somehow do not fall into the abyss themselves. (Right now it can be hard to remember that due to the scenes we're seeing like the shooting of veterans in the head with rubber bullets, midnight raids to tear down tents of protestors after denying respected international reporters, and point-blank military-grade pepper spraying students sitting in peaceful protest of tuition hikes and other such events. But these are human beings, and, I sincerely hope, the vast minority of people doing these things.).

Just a messed up world we live in.
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