Shadowrun 2050 4A - What would you do Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[tete]

Dumpshockers...

http://www.shadowrun4.com/2012/04/rewind-a...adowrun-returns

... have at it

[Neraph]

A. Maze. Ing.

[Mirilion]

Dunno, I really love the 2070's setting, or at least most of it. The AR, technomancers, wireless everything, it would be weird playing in the old setting now. Still, I guess everything depends on good storytelling and good group dynamics anyway.

[binarywraith]

Going to wait until I've read it, but this might actually make me run SR4A for a change.

Then again, given the PR flack talks about 'how to adapt Twentieth Anniversary Edition Matrix, gear, and magic rules for the 2050 setting', I don't know if it'll be enough of a back-shift to make me content. A lot of the newer gear would make a 2050's era street sam eat his own mirrorshades in jealousy, and the current Matrix and Magic rules are outright incompatible with the old assumptions.

[Mirilion]

I think they are trying to show some love to the old-timers. I'm not a regular shadowrun player but I am an old-school-ish gamer (born in the 70s...), and this Shadowrun Returns stuff really made me happy. I guess veteran tabletop players will feel the same way about "2050 is back".

[GM Lich]

I don't like it, not because I dislike the setting, but these sort of things is what separates fan bases. Two settings/systems we know have the "classical" SR and the "new" SR. I really don't want SR to turn out like a certain other rpg games. It seems that it is going that way. Also I like what shadowrun is doing, its a setting that isn't stuck in stasis unlike some other rpgs. Tech advances even if it is 20 minutes in the future tech. Also nostalgic lens.

[JonathanC]

I don't like it, not because I dislike the setting, but these sort of things is what separates fan bases. Two settings/systems we know have the "classical" SR and the "new" SR. I really don't want SR to turn out like a certain other rpg games. It seems that it is going that way. Also I like what shadowrun is doing, its a setting that isn't stuck in stasis unlike some other rpgs. Tech advances even if it is 20 minutes in the future tech. Also nostalgic lens.

The split already happened when 4th ed came out; there were enough changes not just to mechanics but to the fluff that some people chose to stick with SR3. I wasn't one of them, but to be honest some of the 4th ed changes rub me the wrong way.

[tete]

The split already happened when 4th ed came out; there were enough changes not just to mechanics but to the fluff that some people chose to stick with SR3. I wasn't one of them, but to be honest some of the 4th ed changes rub me the wrong way.

Auguably that split has happend multiple times in SRs history though... 2e, Big Ds Death, 3e, YOTC... there was just less internet then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Theres alot of 1e in 4e mechanics and the fluff has constantly changed.

[snowRaven]

It's hard to get the right feel without messing too much with the magic and matrix, imo.

Gear is easy - bring back some old stuff that was taken out (program carriers, but with the added drawback of causing some long term problem - which was what they used as fluff-reason for taking them out; boosted reflexes; old weapons etc), and remove the newer stuff. There are in-game dates for the introduction of most gear, so it shouldn't be a problem really.

Magic needs(?) to be scaled back to only a few traditions, and preferably more difference between the spirits. All that can be done without specific rules, of course...like forcing hermetics to use Binding and shamans to stick to Summoning.

Matrix...dunno. It might be easy to make cyberdecks out of commlinks, I don't know.

Other than that:

I'd make a 2050s campaign book picking up loose ends and tying into old adventures and modules. As an old-timer, it would be awesome going back and 'redoing' stuff from another angle. See other sides to some of the classic runs, have previous antagonists be mr johnsons and contacts, and old contacts turn up as antagonists. I'd re-introduce old npcs from both modules and novels in other runs and situations, and maybe have some of the current 'legends' show up as youths, wannabees and fresh runners in 'cameos'.

I do fear that a 2050s book will have the wrong feel, though. While I may not agree with everything that has occured over the years, Shadowrun's strength is the year-for-year (nearly) developing storyline that has been going on since 1989.

I think a 2050s book will be very useful for creating 'old' runners - people with old cyber or gear.

If it's done right, and contains good conversion guides for each old edition to 4th, it can possibly increase interest in the old modules.

For my own sake, I'm hoping it will help me finally sketch out my 'history of Shadowrun' campaign, bringingthe same PCs through runs related to the major events from 2050 up through the 2070s.

[CanRay]

Hopefully they get some of the good writers in on this, and not the hacks like some of the newer Freelancers.

[snowRaven]

Hopefully they get some of the good writers in on this, and not the hacks like some of the newer Freelancers.

LoL

[Critias]

I don't like it, not because I dislike the setting, but these sort of things is what separates fan bases. Two settings/systems we know have the "classical" SR and the "new" SR. I really don't want SR to turn out like a certain other rpg games. It seems that it is going that way. Also I like what shadowrun is doing, its a setting that isn't stuck in stasis unlike some other rpgs. Tech advances even if it is 20 minutes in the future tech. Also nostalgic lens.

Just as an aside, but there aren't currently any plans for future "2050" or other era supplements or long-term support. It was a one-off thing that came up in a freelancer meeting, and we all got bright eyed and were all "awwww, yeah, that'd be awesome," and it snowballed from there. It's a very happy coincidence that we aren't the only 2050 fans (so you've got Shadowrun Returns aiming for the same period)...but, no. There aren't any current plans for further supplements or anything that should cause that kind of long-term split.

It's a throwback book that's there for folks who want it, and can be passed over by those that don't, but (aside from being a project we're working on) doesn't seem likely to disrupt the overall production schedule, supplant the actual metaplot/timeline, or anything like that.

[snowRaven]

Good to know, but if it hasn't been suggested/thought of/planned for, may I suggest adding a small chapter of plot hooks similar to current campaign books, only set in the 50s?

[Blade]

Starting a new SR4A 2050s line now would be an absurd move: I wouldn't be surprised if 5th edition was around the corner (probably next year), so you'd have to start all over with the new edition.
However, it could be a good way to test the water for the creation of such a line in the 5th edition.

I hope than rather than just throw around references to old sourcebooks and toy with their favorite old known or obscure NPC, the authors will take advantage of this release to offer a setting with a clear tone and flavor.

The problem with the current state of Shadowrun is that it's like Nutrisoy: nearly everyone will eat it, but it's pretty bland. Sure, everyone can add his own favorite flavor, but the real meat/vegetable is still more flavorful.

[Sengir]

I wouldn't be surprised if 5th edition was around the corner (probably next year)

5th Edition is going to happen sooner or later, so it's nice that CGL release a benchmark on how good they are for writing crunch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And if they succeed it means nostalgia, running old stuff smoothly with the new rules, and "full-color artwork showing the chrome, dirt, neon, and darkness that was in the heart of Shadowrun when it started". Sign me up

[Bigity]

It would have me interested, that's for sure, and the current stuff does not interest me at all, outside of rules.

[Kolinho]

If they are taking the fluff of the 2050s and adding to it the rules and gear of SR4a then it sounds like a great idea. I agree with those above that say the current setting is a bit watery - though that said, it can only be as weak as your GM's imagination allows it to be. I play fast and loose with the fluff for my group, as I like to make the world my own, write my own runs etc.

[CanRay]

My group hasn't found it watery... Although they hate RFID Chips with a passion.

[binarywraith]

If they are taking the fluff of the 2050s and adding to it the rules and gear of SR4a then it sounds like a great idea. I agree with those above that say the current setting is a bit watery - though that said, it can only be as weak as your GM's imagination allows it to be. I play fast and loose with the fluff for my group, as I like to make the world my own, write my own runs etc.

Of course, that's the point of having a gm, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The SR4a gear would have to be changed, though. A lot of it is -way- too advanced for the 2050's flavor, not to mention the ridiculous power creep that's gone on since then.

[Dakka Dakka]

Of course, that's the point of having a gm, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The SR4a gear would have to be changed, though. A lot of it is -way- too advanced for the 2050's flavor, not to mention the ridiculous power creep that's gone on since then.

I'm not really familiar with first edition. What has not been around then that exists now?
I know in 3rd the Rigger control was a huge investment and gave a tremendous bonus, but in 4th it provides a mere +2.

Was Bioware around then?

[Sengir]

Was Bioware around then?

Not in the core book, but IIRC Shadowtech, which introduced bioware in some excellent writing, was still 1st Ed..

[JonathanC]

My group hasn't found it watery... Although they hate RFID Chips with a passion.

It's...how do I put this....it tries too hard to resemble the real world, so instead of being this exotic, weird future, it's comes off more like Burn Notice with Trolls. The world of SR3 seemed much more alien and interesting to me.

[Bigity]

It's...how do I put this....it tries too hard to resemble the real world, so instead of being this exotic, weird future, it's comes off more like Burn Notice with Trolls. The world of SR3 seemed much more alien and interesting to me.

This.

[Mirilion]

Welp, as a relative newbie I don't see much difference between the settings. I do vaguely remember bioware being something very new and with a high "coolness" factor once, hermetics being very different from shamans, more native-Americans everywhere being awesome, while now everything is just there in the core rulebook sharing mechanics and being kind of bland but more accessible.

Still, the wireless and the technomancers are just too great to let go. I guess if it was 2072 right now I'd join a matrix cult, but right now I'd settle for playing a hacker or techno or messing with my players using wireless shenanigans.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I was a veteran player I would probably love the original setting more because of the good memories of playing in it, and I'd be kind of excited about the new guys publishing something meant for me.

[cndblank]

Agreed. I'm really looking forward to this.
Plus some of the best adventures were from that time period.


And I do appreciate the Love. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The day couldn't have gotten any better unless the original game designers were going to do a real Shadowrun PC game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think they are trying to show some love to the old-timers. I'm not a regular shadowrun player but I am an old-school-ish gamer (born in the 70s...), and this Shadowrun Returns stuff really made me happy. I guess veteran tabletop players will feel the same way about "2050 is back".

[cndblank]

Magic needs(?) to be scaled back to only a few traditions, and preferably more difference between the spirits. All that can be done without specific rules, of course...like forcing hermetics to use Binding and shamans to stick to Summoning.

I already run an "Old School" campaign in 2055.

It is easier to run.

Less nano and gene tech.
That stuff is still out there but only in SOTA black labs. Makes it more special.

Cyberware is still cheap (base rate), but all Bioware is double price and very hard to detect.
Rigger control cyber ware is much more invasive (cost up to 1.5 essence for level 3) but not so much that they can not use wired reflexes.

Wireless hacking goes on all the time, but you need to be jacked in to use full VR with hot sim.
And no one keeps any thing of real value accessible by wireless (lots of hardwired limits on how much can be accessed at one time or per day).
For example in my campaign commercial jets require the pilot to be rigged in or using manual controls. There is no way to remote in to the jet's control hardware unless the panic button has been physically activated (which flashes a light and puts a blinking icon on very screen in the cockpit).
So you can wirelessly pick a man's pocket (his comlink) any time, but once you reach his daily limit draining his bank account means going against the bank security which allows very limited wireless access to the accounts.


I'll be interested how they do the spirits for Mage/Shaman.

I run it with shamanic spirits are +1 force inside their domain and -1 outside. Also it takes a full day per point of force to bind a local spirit the first time as the shaman establishes a relation ship with the spirit. Takes 1 hour per point of force after that as the Shaman returns the favor. The favors take as much time and nuyen as the cost of binding the spirit. Plus you can play up the Shaman having to do favors for his allies.
The shamanic spirit is also -1 force if sent out side the local area (so would be -2 force if outside the local area and not in their domain), but a bound spirit is an ally of the shaman so will not attack the shaman or his friends if the spirit goes free (unless there is a critical glitch).

That means a shaman new to the area is much weaker until he or she establish ties with the local spirits. Also a shaman can risk binding more powerful spirits than a mage. And they have wider options on what to use for binding materials (You need an a collection of rare comic books for what?.)

Mages use the base rules (so they can summon an elemental (spirit)).

Seems to provide a good flavor without being too difficult or overpowering.

I'm thinking of adding a rule for summoning by mages that unless there is a large enough source in the material world for the elemental to form on the Astral the summoned spirit will be at -1 force.
So a camp fire is fine for a force 3 fire elemental but a force 6 needs a burning house or a bonfire. Course air elementals are easy to summon unless under ground.

[Mirilion]

So how do the players of the original 2050 setting think 2070 should be like? Obviously this is just a mental exercise but I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

Ever since Eclipse Phase came out I always assumed that the setting was progressing towards a strange transhuman-horror-fantasy feel, but that's just me.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Besides the video games, I got into Shadowrun right around the time 4E was rolling around. Like, literally a month before it rolled out. I never had much time to get invested in the earlier editions. The lore of those times is... Well, it's what made the Sixth World what it is, but I kind of like the "Burn Notice with Trolls" feel of SR4A.

A lot of that is that Shadowrun 1st through 3rd editions were all what the 1980s thought the mid-21 century would be with magic and elves and orcs, whereas SR4 is what today's futurists and technological advancement prediction rates state that the late-mid 21st century will be with magic and elves and orcs. Japan being a feared, expansionist superpower, for instance, because for some reason in the 1980s everybody was terrified of Japan, rather than a defensively-oriented regional power which has no interest in military conquest, which is what they are now and look to be for the foreseeable future.

And, of course, the Native Americans. Where in the flying hell did they come from? Did the guys just, like, not even bother to look at the 1980 Census data? Native Americans, as any kind of functioning nations or even ethnic groups, are for all intents and purposes extinct, and they have been since before Shadowrun was dreamed up.


But, by the same token, those are part of the forces that make our magitechnical dystopia the magitechnical dystopia we all love.


[e]As an aside, am I the only one who read the title of this thread and thought it was going to be about a group of 2070s characters who get transported back in time to the 2050s? You could have a character unironically exclaim "We have to go back! To the future!"

[binarywraith]

So how do the players of the original 2050 setting think 2070 should be like? Obviously this is just a mental exercise but I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

Ever since Eclipse Phase came out I always assumed that the setting was progressing towards a strange transhuman-horror-fantasy feel, but that's just me.

Honestly? It's hard to say. One of biggest complaints I have with where they've taken the setting are that apparently Crash 2.0 made the Megacorps and everyone else go balls-out retarded about computer security. Even given the idea that they didn't rebuild the Matrix the way they originally had it to try and keep any more AIs from spawning, wirelessly connecting everything is dumber than a box of rocks. Anything wirelessly accessible will eventually be compromised, even if only by some bored kid with a smattering of talent and just enough hardware who thinks it'd be funny to switch the traffic lights in the middle of rush hour. Extending that to letting them make your cyberarm beat you to death is exceedingly stupid. 'The Real World Does It' is a terrible excuse for this, as computer security experts today rage against having anything that matters accessible via wireless due to the ease of social engineering compromising passwords and remote access. Not to even mention that Seattle is an island in the middle of a huge continental chunk of undeveloped area. The cost to retrofit everything with wireless tech had to be laughably astronomical, and who's paying to rewire the Barrens? Much less disaster areas like San Fran or Chicago.

Beyond that, the NaN and CSA have been really, really neglected as powers. Between them they control 2/3 of the old US, and a lot of very large metroplexes (CSA) and huge chunks of valuable magical resources (NaN), but neither of them has really been mentioned at all in some time. The lack of NaN is probably part of the catalyst for the difference between the hermetic and shamanic traditions has been removed, simply because without the tribal culture it's hard to explain shamanistic viewpoints in a way that matters.

Losing that distinction is a major loss as well, as the hard differences between shamans, hermetic mages, and adepts were one of the main points of uniqueness of the Shadowrun magic system and their effects on the setting made major difference in the feel of the game by making it all sadly generic.

So yeah. I guess my own 'vision' for how to go from 2050 to 2070 would be simply doing what was working then, only moreso. Limiting the advances of cyber, bio, and nanoware simply because the megacorps have zero reason to release the really good advancements onto the market when they're most often being used against them. No normal citizen is going to be lining up to buy 'em after all, and the black market has every reason to keep prices high and availability limited. Sure, this means it is damn near impossible to create a 'perfect' cybered-up samurai at creation, but there has to be some path for character development available. Keeping the distinctions between magical traditions an important and experience-changing matter for players and the setting alike. In general, making progressive decisions that fit with where the story was, and flow forward, not adapting the story to how the real world is now. The two timelines clearly diverged somewhere back in the 90's anyway, there's no reason to try and rectify them.

Cyberpunk, rather than near-future Urban Fantasy, is what I want.

As far as shifting towards horror, that's been kind of a thing with HMHVV and the introduction of the insect spirits, Horrors, and the Immortal Elves way back in 2e. Not to mention AZT's blood magic habits. There are plenty of downright scary things going on in the metaplot that a GM can bring to the surface if he wishes, and half the fun is that the corps are always going to be Business As Usual over it.


Wow, sorry, didn't mean to rant.

[JonathanC]

I have to agree that the "real world does it" explanation is particularly stupid with regards to wireless technology, since the real world *doesn't* make everything wireless. It's both unrealistic *and* less adventurous, since you no longer have to look for access points, or worry about having someone watch over your body while you jack in, since you're just trotting along with the team hacking in AR.

[Mirilion]

[e]As an aside, am I the only one who read the title of this thread and thought it was going to be about a group of 2070s characters who get transported back in time to the 2050s? You could have a character unironically exclaim "We have to go back! To the future!"

I groaned and laughed at the same time.

Anyway in all the scenarios I came up with the pros (which is most of the people the runners actually go up against) can't be easily hacked, using all the tricks in the core book and unwired. Only the chumps are easy or at least easy-ish, the pros always require social engineering, hacker presence and general cleverness. The coolness factor of the wireless matrix is unbelievable and I am prepared to go to extreme lengths to defend it in my games, including GM fiats for pacing and balance while distracting players by offering them extra snacks and beer.

It has to be said, though, that if a player comes up with a brilliant plot to subvert some sammie's cyberware in order to hack it later, as far as I'm concerned he earned it.

As for the reason for this wireless madness, I actually started developing a story for it. Some sort of pre-singularity-emergent-machine-god thing manipulating events before it is fully formed. Seems to fit nicely with some tidbits from Emergence, plus the idea that corps won't care about the security of the common people because they want to shove ads in their faces and keep tabs on them. It was going to be a really world changing event, bringing things closer to Eclipse Phase in some respects, but we never got around to playing more than a few runs so far.

[JonathanC]

I don't see what's so cool about it; that Google ad for their Augmented Reality glasses just looks annoying, to me. You think I want to be instantly interrupted by random people while I'm eating breakfast? And if that guy lived in Manhattan but didn't know how to walk to Strand books from a few blocks away, how does he manage to tie his shoes in the morning? I used to live in the Bronx and I could find my way to Strand books without consulting Google Maps.

Plus, since even Hidden Nodes are laughably easy to hack your way into....shouldn't Shadowrunning be nearly impossible? Like, the second you connect to the Matrix anyone who's looking for you could pinpoint your location. It's just stupid. And for what? So we could trade in an awesome, flavorful vision of the future from back when people had more of a creative vision for some bland, iFuture that looks like it was lifted from an Apple presentation?


I love the ruleset of SR4A in most cases, but flavor-wise I have some serious problems with what was done to the Matrix and Magic.

[Mirilion]

I love the ruleset of SR4A in most cases, but flavor-wise I have some serious problems with what was done to the Matrix and Magic.

What do you think the future of 2070 should have been like? Realistically technology should have progressed in the 20 years that passed, but how? or maybe they should have just updated the rules without advancing the setting? I found the matrix rules very hard to understand and actually use in play, at least at first, but otherwise I actually love everything you mentioned except for the google glasses.

Edit: I just realized that 1992 was 20 years ago...

[JonathanC]

What do you think the future of 2070 should have been like? Realistically technology should have progressed in the 20 years that passed, but how? or maybe they should have just updated the rules without advancing the setting? I found the matrix rules very hard to understand and actually use in play, at least at first, but otherwise I actually love everything you mentioned except for the google glasses.

Edit: I just realized that 1992 was 20 years ago...

Technology doesn't advance at a regular pace. A situation in which large corporations have cornered the market on nearly every aspect of modern life should actually result in stagnation, not innovation. Besides, why have there been advances in every area *except* security? It's easy to break into computers, anyone with a knowledge of electronics can defeat most locks, and the technology to turn a regular person into a super-fast killing machine is apparently cheap enough for mercenaries and criminals, yet is completely absent from security personnel.

And yet I'm told that SR4 is a more "realistic" view of the future than previous editions.

[binarywraith]

Technology doesn't advance at a regular pace. A situation in which large corporations have cornered the market on nearly every aspect of modern life should actually result in stagnation, not innovation. Besides, why have there been advances in every area *except* security? It's easy to break into computers, anyone with a knowledge of electronics can defeat most locks, and the technology to turn a regular person into a super-fast killing machine is apparently cheap enough for mercenaries and criminals, yet is completely absent from security personnel.

And yet I'm told that SR4 is a more "realistic" view of the future than previous editions.

Especially a situation where corps control the market on everything and the entire electronic communications infrastructure has been hard crashed twice now, with untold losses in R&D. Hell, since the 2040's R&D has to be conducted under massive security in order to prevent opponents hiring Shadowrunners to steal or destroy it and the researchers involved. That is not a recipe for smooth growth.

[Mirilion]

Strange, it's as if we're playing a completely different game. My security forces have ware, and lots of it in the case of high rating forces, but good luck hacking it. In my experience hacking is hard and dangerous, it takes a lot of skill and luck to open locks without incident and finding hidden nodes is very hard unless you're lucky or the situation happens to make it easy for you.

As for the last part, corporations have been in control for quite a while now (in the real world) and I can't even remember what 1992 was like. It's really hard to remember what 2000 was like, actually. Apple, for example, has tech researched and planned ahead for who knows how long, but even they with all their money-making schemes are still advancing their products once a year.

So basically you're saying tech should stay at 2050 levels even at 2070 because of complete stagnation? That's not... very fun. But technological advancement has always been a weak point in role playing games. I liked it when Shadowrun 4th ed. devs actually advanced the technology significantly, it's something not many developers want to deal with but it makes futuristic worlds MUCH more realistic.

[binarywraith]

Strange, it's as if we're playing a completely different game. My security forces have ware, and lots of it in the case of high rating forces, but good luck hacking it. In my experience hacking is hard and dangerous, it takes a lot of skill and luck to open locks without incident and finding hidden nodes is very hard unless you're lucky or the situation happens to make it easy for you.

As for the last part, corporations have been in control for quite a while now (in the real world) and I can't even remember what 1992 was like. It's really hard to remember what 2000 was like, actually. Apple, for example, has tech researched and planned ahead for who knows how long, but even they with all their money-making schemes are still advancing their products once a year.

So basically you're saying tech should stay at 2050 levels even at 2070 because of complete stagnation? That's not... very fun. But technological advancement has always been a weak point in role playing games. I liked it when Shadowrun 4th ed. devs actually advanced the technology significantly, it's something not many developers want to deal with but it makes futuristic worlds MUCH more realistic.

That's the thing. In a lot of ways, they regressed the technology towards modern solutions instead of projecting where future trends could go.

And modern corporate control is nothing compared to the Megacorps. Remember, you're talking about a world where corporate citizenship is more important than nationality, and most wageslaves don't even -own- money that isn't corpscript. Where changing employers is hard enough that people hire teams of mercenaries to do extractions. Where even the smallest of the Big 8 has a larger economic presence than first-world countries today.

[Mirilion]

I get what you're saying but total stagnation still isn't possible IMO, and in-genre cyberpunk is all about the cutting edge.

All I could come up with for an alternative 2070 which is different than both 2050 and the SR4 2070 is a world with more magitech and less essence-cyber conflict. Like Deckers with magi-modules trapping spirits inside their cyberdecks, mage-riggers animate manadrones with elementals, stuff like that.

Edit: or more space stuff.

[binarywraith]

I get what you're saying but total stagnation still isn't possible IMO, and in-genre cyberpunk is all about the cutting edge.

All I could come up with for an alternative 2070 which is different than both 2050 and the SR4 2070 is a world with more magitech and less essence-cyber conflict. Like Deckers with magi-modules trapping spirits inside their cyberdecks, mage-riggers animate manadrones with elementals, stuff like that.

Except that doesn't work at all given the way Shadowrun magic works.

[Mirilion]

Lucky I didn't tell you about my SR4 crossover with My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, then.

[CanRay]

Lucky I didn't tell you about my SR4 crossover with My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, then.

What the hell is it with ShadowBronies?

[Mirilion]

You don't need a SIN to love and tolerate, you know.

But seriously, how can 2050s style cyberpunk be even more cyberpunk without changing the setting too much, like SR4 did, but still having enough new stuff to reflect 20 years of changes.

[binarywraith]

Lucky I didn't tell you about my SR4 crossover with My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, then.

Sentient, magic-using ponies would work with the setting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Magitech not so much.

[kzt]

Hopefully they get some of the good writers in on this, and not the hacks like some of the newer Freelancers.

Maybe get someone new who can write matrix rules that are logical, work and make sense to people who have ever used a computer? Possibly even get someone who understands how computers work and doesn't worship TRON?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Lucky I didn't tell you about my SR4 crossover with My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, then.

You cybered up Applejack, didn't you? You maniac.

[Mirilion]

You cybered up Applejack, didn't you? You maniac.

Hehe, actually my alcohol-induced semi-ideas included an invasion of pony-like spirits, pony cultists brainwashing new bronies into the herd, spreading love, tolerance and the mindless worship of their goddess "celestia". Anyone may be infected, they just become nice to everyone and everything, including researchers freeing trapped technomancers and AI from secret labs, security guards letting runners in if they ask nicely, stuff like that. At some point we started talking about other, less terrifying things so that was it.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Oh, so you took something innocent and sweet and pure and warped it into something horrifying and terrible, in proper Shadowrun fashion, eh?

Fair 'nuff, carry on.

[CanRay]

Maybe get someone new who can write matrix rules that are logical, work and make sense to people who have ever used a computer? Possibly even get someone who understands how computers work and doesn't worship TRON?

Don't know many computer techs, do you? TRON is the bible for most of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[last_of_the_grea...]

Hopefully they get some of the good writers in on this, and not the hacks like some of the newer Freelancers.

Uhh...are you, in a roundabout way, kicing said freelancers off of your lawn?

[CanRay]

Uhh...are you, in a roundabout way, kicing said freelancers off of your lawn?

No, I'm backhandedly insulting myself. I've always referred to myself as a hack about my writing.

I'm the newest freelancer (or close to it), so I figure they'll want to get the varsity on this one.

[snowRaven]

Don't know many computer techs, do you? TRON is the bible for most of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And rightly so! You can't get much more 80s cyberpunk when it comes to VR really...

[kzt]

Umm, that was 30 years ago. What is your target demo? If it's for 40-60 year old cyberpunk fans then TRON as a model makes perfect sense. If you have a different demo in mind then you might consider that rules that make sense to someone who has used real computers since before they could talk might be a clever innovation.

Given that every version of computer rules in SR has been essentially unplayable also suggests to me that putting out another version of the traditional incomprehensible TRON worshiping crap is probably not a good idea.

[CanRay]

Computer rules from EVERY Cyberpunk game have been "essentially unplayable". SR4A comes the closest possible yet in my mind. And it still keeps the TRON worshiping crap as well.

[ravensmuse]

I can't say I'm surprised. What I am surprised by is the amount of...apathy everyone else on the internet has had about this. The couple places I figured would be intrigued / discussing it are mum, and talking more about the video game kickstarter.

But no, I'm not surprised that current crew has suddenly leapt upon the idea of doing a retro-2050s buzz. They've pretty much admitted that they're not fans of the direction Peter Taylor steered the Shadowrun ship (see whatever thread it was a few months back where some of the writers described a game I and a good number of other people have never played), and surprise surprise, they're making their first full on attempt to go backwards. Yawn.

The hobby is graying, and they're starting to get nostalgic about the good old days. You've seen it start with the OSR, and now you're seeing it migrate outwards. Its like old comic fans getting their hands on Marvel / DC characters - keep what they like, screw whatever interesting tacks have been taken since they first started reading comics.

I'm already voting with my wallet either way. I haven't bought a product since the Catocalypse a few years back, and I'll just keep on keeping on, I guess.

ETA:

Computer rules from EVERY Cyberpunk game have been "essentially unplayable". SR4A comes the closest possible yet in my mind. And it still keeps the TRON worshiping crap as well.

I gotta ask - why is this a good thing?

I had to sit down and physically write down every single rule - spread across the whole of SR4a - to even begin to understand the hacking / rigging rules. To run an NPC. Other players of mine have expressed interest in running the game, but are stymied by a rules set that is just...overwhelming.

Hell, the only thing keeping me from trying out the Shadowrun / Mouseguard hack I read awhile back is a) the price of Mouseguard (beautiful and well-written as it is) and b) my players not being as interested in trying indie games as I am.

[Mirilion]

Why is everyone so gloomy? I can't be the only one who's totally excited about everything that went down these last few weeks, right?

As for the matrix, the purpose of the rules is to facilitate fun. More realistic matrix rules will probably not be fun, but if they somehow manage to simplify them a bit the rules will be much better than they are right now. I personally love geeking out over interesting and complex gaming systems, but some of my friends who love the idea of technomancers, for example, are really dissapointed by the complexity of the rules.

[CanRay]

Gloomy? Because this is either going to be awesome, or rape childhoods.

Think about the South Park Episode about the new Indiana Jones movie... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bigity]

Yes. It would be like remaking the Goonies.

[counterveil]

Well, you can count me amongst the excited. When I was starting 4A I found that I had all these old adventures SR1=>SR3 that I had never run so I just decided to do 2050 in 4A anyway. This would make it easier. Crossing my fingers for more comprehensive / easy to use Matrix rules though; I've never run into a set that I like.

[kzt]

As for the matrix, the purpose of the rules is to facilitate fun. More realistic matrix rules will probably not be fun, but if they somehow manage to simplify them a bit the rules will be much better than they are right now. I personally love geeking out over interesting and complex gaming systems, but some of my friends who love the idea of technomancers, for example, are really dissapointed by the complexity of the rules.

You don't want realism, you want verisimilitude. And you want the rules on computers to makes sense to someone who has literally used a computer since before they could talk. The whole doublethink insanity you have to go through with the current matrix rules makes even trying to figure out what the rules are tying to say hugely painful. Computer rules based on the thoughts of a guy who never used a computer and wrote entire novels on manual typewriters in the PC/MAC word processor era has pretty much reached the sell-by date.

In other words, you need to throw out the anachronistic TRONism and Gibson worship and replace it with ideas that make sense and are at least vaguely plausible extensions of where tech is going. Of course, this is easy to say and harder to do.

[CanRay]

Yeah, sorry, but I think VR is here to stay.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Yeah, sorry, but I think VR is here to stay.

Frankly, I wouldn't want VR to go anywhere. I like the thought of jacking in and going into hot sim, full-immersion, Enter the Matrix style virtual reality

[kzt]

Actually that isn't a problem really.

The problems with the system and reality starts with the idea that in order to access a random host that random host will automatically "run your icon" on it. Essentially you are feeding it some arbitrary computer code and it is executing it. Having a remote system execute arbitrary code is what malware is trying to achieve, in SR that's what you get by default. Isn't it odd how people in SR have such a bad time with hackers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That is really just a fluff change, but it is a kind of important one.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Nobody ever said that Matrix architecture made sense from a computer security point of view. Perhaps it's not even intended to - after all, the Crash Worm (the first one) wiped out all of our "modern" computers and it somehow got through every firewall known to man, most of which were likely smart enough to say "lolno" to random connections trying to run executable data.


It could just be that by the time of the 2070s, telling computers not to run things that any random wanker tells them to run is a losing game. Otherwise cracking a node the way we do it - entering it and smashing the IC down - would be impossible, since the defending node could simply say "you want me to run an attack program that damages my firewall? lol no."


I don't have a problem with this.

[Mirilion]

This keeps coming up everywhere. Two examples - archaeologists and snipers.

Archaeologists find fantasy cultures silly because storytellers don't usually give them clear styles, and when you enter a tomb you just find unrelated imagery and monsters.
Snipers usually find rifle ranges in games ridiculous, because they can shoot much farther in real life. I actually had a couple of friends that were combat veterans argue this with me.

Game developers just try to make things fun, not realistic and boring. No one tells you that you have to work insanely hard to locate a tomb that isn't just a pit full of bones, and you really don't want the game to include sniping that much - "your head assplodes, make a new character".

[Ryu]

I´ve lost another game to new dark ages before. Good that nostalgia is looking back and does not meddle with the future. The whole project could be a Retro-SR pdf instead of a new main book, giving SR4 rules sections for old modules.

- separating the matrix (wired) from rigging (wireless) again will be the hardest part.
- The mage/shaman thingy should stay in the past, so no trouble
- one would need a tech timeline and an event timeline

I can't say I'm surprised. What I am surprised by is the amount of...apathy everyone else on the internet has had about this. The couple places I figured would be intrigued / discussing it are mum, and talking more about the video game kickstarter.

But no, I'm not surprised that current crew has suddenly leapt upon the idea of doing a retro-2050s buzz. They've pretty much admitted that they're not fans of the direction Peter Taylor steered the Shadowrun ship (see whatever thread it was a few months back where some of the writers described a game I and a good number of other people have never played), and surprise surprise, they're making their first full on attempt to go backwards. Yawn.

The hobby is graying, and they're starting to get nostalgic about the good old days. You've seen it start with the OSR, and now you're seeing it migrate outwards. Its like old comic fans getting their hands on Marvel / DC characters - keep what they like, screw whatever interesting tacks have been taken since they first started reading comics.

I'm already voting with my wallet either way. I haven't bought a product since the Catocalypse a few years back, and I'll just keep on keeping on, I guess.

Do you have any more hints to find the plot-discussion-thread? As for the apathy, yes. We self-adopted a few of the old modules, but else there is little to no interest in going back.

[ravensmuse]

I´ve lost another game to new dark ages before. Good that nostalgia is looking back and does not meddle with the future. The whole project could be a Retro-SR pdf instead of a new main book, giving SR4 rules sections for old modules.

Sorry dude, I'm trying to parse this paragraph. Can you repeat? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do you have any more hints to find the plot-discussion-thread? As for the apathy, yes. We self-adopted a few of the old modules, but else there is little to no interest in going back.

Start from here and work forward, noting some freelance responses. Bull, Patrick, Critias.

Patrick's post is specifically where I turned my head and went, "bwuh?". He starts talking about how augmentation is a thing you don't make a choice about and it only leads into a downward spiral of needing more to survive....which kind of contradicts many NPCs out there that have basic aug's in order to do their job or convenience, and they don't seem to have any weird cyberpsychosis thing going on. There's also no rules in the text about this - you take an Essence and nuyen loss, and that's pretty much it.

(Neurosis gets it, to balance things out here).

It's fine if that's a game that they want to write and play. It's just not the game that I want to play or buy.

So to go back to topic at hand, I'm not surprised by a release of a 2050 supplemental book, nor would I be surprised if suddenly it becomes its own line. I'm just surprised no one's been discussing it.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Start from here and work forward, noting some freelance responses. Bull, Patrick, Critias.

Patrick's post is specifically where I turned my head and went, "bwuh?". He starts talking about how augmentation is a thing you don't make a choice about and it only leads into a downward spiral of needing more to survive....which kind of contradicts many NPCs out there that have basic aug's in order to do their job or convenience, and they don't seem to have any weird cyberpsychosis thing going on. There's also no rules in the text about this - you take an Essence and nuyen loss, and that's pretty much it.

(Neurosis gets it, to balance things out here).

It's fine if that's a game that they want to write and play. It's just not the game that I want to play or buy.

So to go back to topic at hand, I'm not surprised by a release of a 2050 supplemental book, nor would I be surprised if suddenly it becomes its own line. I'm just surprised no one's been discussing it.

Yeah, wow. Patrick's post... Wow.

Sure, some people might have gotten their chrome the Adam Jensen way, but not everybody. Not by a long shot. Not when losing your eyes and getting brand-spanking new rating 4 cybereyes with all the trimmings and a datajack is a long lunch-break at a Nu Yu boutique.

[Mirilion]

Bull's post... I just don't agree with it. I don't really care about how the CGL folk meant for their world to feel, and here's how I see it.

The new world is a nightmare and a total prison for your mind and body. People work 12 hours a day, every day, and in their spare time they would rather lose themselves in some AR or VR paradise than do anything important. Children grow up alienated from their parents, their friends are mostly online (hang out in 4chan /b/ sometimes, in 2070 it's like that ALL THE TIME), everything is totally screwed.

People are warned about the dangers of identity theft and stuff like that, but they don't ever realize how FUCKED they are, because when someone's SIN is taken from him the crooked cops that arrest him sell his organs to tamanous and his existence has been deleted. The corps only implemented wireless because it helps them gain more power over the herds, they don't care about security. Most hackers either work for them or are hunted down like dogs - not all are "Slamm-O!" level. All the causes and all the hype you see on the trids, EVERYTHING is controlled by government and corp media, big brother sees you all the time and there's very little privacy. So all the info you get about something with your fancy AR image links and DNI was put there by corp content editors and designed by corp sociologists.

ONLY the SINless can find any sort of freedom from all this, and most of them live in urban jungles controlled by gangs anyway.
The illusion of freedom and awesome tech is spoon fed to you by megacorp PR in order to make you a slave. Freedom is for shadowrunners or others who are SINless but live inside the machine without being part of it.

[Ryu]

Sorry dude, I'm trying to parse this paragraph. Can you repeat? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

1st thought: I´m happy that they are writing a 2050 book instead of bending the 2070 scenario to be different. Mechwarrior: Dark Age ruined BT for me.

2nd thought: Since the main selling point is IMO using the old material from FASA/FanPro times, an "Alternate Setting" book would be stronger. Less re-printing of hopefully identical rules, more place for actual conversions and new stuff. I´m not buying a new main book.



Thanks for the links. I shall now refrain from de-railing this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

Otherwise cracking a node the way we do it - entering it and smashing the IC down - would be impossible, since the defending node could simply say "you want me to run an attack program that damages my firewall?

The Attack program does not run on the target node, the target node only gets fed the data from the attack program. I tend to think of it as a modern Metasploit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Bigity]

The reversion of the identical mage/shaman/other systems to different mechanics (at least on the spirit front) is pretty ciritical for me to buy this product. Otherwise I'll still with what I already have.

With those and Matrix rules for deckers, I'm happy to purchase it and any future retro-style stuff.

[KarmaInferno]

Start from here and work forward, noting some freelance responses. Bull, Patrick, Critias.

Patrick's post is specifically where I turned my head and went, "bwuh?". He starts talking about how augmentation is a thing you don't make a choice about and it only leads into a downward spiral of needing more to survive....which kind of contradicts many NPCs out there that have basic aug's in order to do their job or convenience, and they don't seem to have any weird cyberpsychosis thing going on. There's also no rules in the text about this - you take an Essence and nuyen loss, and that's pretty much it.

(Neurosis gets it, to balance things out here).

Here's the thing.

Patrick's post was written from a genre perspective.

Neurosis wrote from a player perspective.

They're both right.

Augmentation in classic Cyberpunk has always been a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Having to continually get augmented more and more, just to keep up with the competition, is a pretty classic trope of the genre. As is the increasing de-humanization that comes with augmentation.

Cyberpunk stories are rife with characters that get some for whatever reason, and find that they're now saddled with sometimes crippling drawbacks they weren't expecting. As befits a dystopian setting, augmentation is that "quick path to power" which always ends in tears. Even those minor side characters that don't get heavily augmented, like the sarariman with the accounting implants, or the construction worker with an industrial jackhammer cyberarm, their implants serve as shackles enslaving them to corporate masters, even if they don't realize it.

This is why most Cyberpunk games place additional 'cost' on augmentation. Whether it's cyberpsychosis, or essence loss, or whatever, you lose essential humanity when you get metal to replace your meat. If you're playing a game where getting cybernetic implants does NOT somehow eat your soul, you may be enjoying yourself, who knows, but you're not playing a Cyberpunk game.

PLAYER motivations are different, however.

I am reminded of the scene from the movie 'Last Action Hero', where the protagonist Jack Slater finally meets Arnold Schwarzenegger. After considering his life so far, all Jack can say is, "I have always hated you."

Players want to play a cool character. They want to be powerful or stylish or badass, and often all of the above. RPG games are all about escapism, after all, so who wants to play Sammy Sad Sack, who is being forced into a life of pain and heartbreak and is doomed to die a whimpering death in some back alley gutter?

The trick is, of course, to somehow maintain that dystopian feel while still catering to player wants.



-k

[CanRay]

Which is why I want to play. I want a dystopian feel as a player.

[snowRaven]

Players want to play a cool character. They want to be powerful or stylish or badass, and often all of the above. RPG games are all about escapism, after all, so who wants to play Sammy Sad Sack, who is being forced into a life of pain and heartbreak and is doomed to die a whimpering death in some back alley gutter?

The trick is, of course, to somehow maintain that dystopian feel while still catering to player wants.

Which is why I want to play. I want a dystopian feel as a player.

I'm with you there CanRay...

If I ever got the chance to play an actual game as a player, I would definately try to make something along the lines of 'Sammy Sad Sack' as KarmaInferno puts it.

I've always been drawn to the downtrodden, dystopic underdog who fights against all odds only to acheive a small symbolic victory and then die in the end...

[CanRay]

What, you want an actual victory? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Ryu]

Here's the thing.

Patrick's post was written from a genre perspective.

Neurosis wrote from a player perspective.

They're both right.

Augmentation in classic Cyberpunk has always been a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Having to continually get augmented more and more, just to keep up with the competition, is a pretty classic trope of the genre. As is the increasing de-humanization that comes with augmentation.

Cyberpunk stories are rife with characters that get some for whatever reason, and find that they're now saddled with sometimes crippling drawbacks they weren't expecting. As befits a dystopian setting, augmentation is that "quick path to power" which always ends in tears. Even those minor side characters that don't get heavily augmented, like the sarariman with the accounting implants, or the construction worker with an industrial jackhammer cyberarm, their implants serve as shackles enslaving them to corporate masters, even if they don't realize it.

As an accountant, not having a Math SPU will be a severe disadvantage. Synthacardium and Sleep Regulator are must-haves for heavy-duty jobs. Mnemonic Enhancers beat external access to information by a mile. Implants should be common, there is no choice if you can afford them. The stronger you get and the more abilities you have, the less you can relate to unaugmented people.

Transhumanism can develop at the core of an augmented subculture, but I don´t see Joe Average embracing that idea. And very few would be able to afford following it. Greed and envy fit a dystopian setting well.


Maybe one can divide the time from 2050 to 2070 in phases with different tech access and attitudes towards implants. "Prototype years", "Gearing for mass production", "Everyone is doing it". Transhumanism would IMO be a very late development.

[snowRaven]

What, you want an actual victory? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

no...only a symbolic victory - like being stepped on by Lofwyr instead of being eaten by him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Angelone]

If it doesn't come with a trophy and a cash prize I'm out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

I don't really understand the need for this product. What do we gain from it?

[snowRaven]

If it doesn't come with a trophy and a cash prize I'm out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

I don't really understand the need for this product. What do we gain from it?

Hopefully rules and guidelines for converting older SR products to SR4A rules.

Also, rules for older versions of cyberware and other tech - useful in creating more believable older pcs and npcs.

[warrior_allanon]

Personally i'm loving the idea, I'm just hoping it comes out before i start my game because i want to run my players through all 20+ years of SR in game history with the modules. I can just see their faces now finding themselves running the mission to steal Ehran the Scribe's manuscript, or getting dropped in Bug City just before the Cermak Blast.

yes i'm an Evil GM

[cryptoknight]

Maybe get someone new who can write matrix rules that are logical, work and make sense to people who have ever used a computer? Possibly even get someone who understands how computers work and doesn't worship TRON?

QFT

I remember when I first ran into SR4... my biggest complaint was "what foolish company would put everything they need to protect onto a wireless network that any idiot with a long enough range could just hack at directly?"

I was told I didn't know anything about computers... I guess 16 years of working as a Network Administrator, Network Engineer, and Database Administrator disqualifies me.

[pdboddy]

Heh, I guess the one trick companies have is to put all the stuff they want to protect onto a system that is not hooked up to the Matrix, either wired or wireless.

Isn't that the reason for gathering runners together for a run?

[Angelone]

Because if they used real computer security the decker/hacker types wouldn't be any fun to play. It would basically be them sitting around while everyone else ran off to do stuff.

[binarywraith]

I can't say I'm surprised. What I am surprised by is the amount of...apathy everyone else on the internet has had about this. The couple places I figured would be intrigued / discussing it are mum, and talking more about the video game kickstarter.

Why get excited? Most of us who love the 2050's setting are still playing SR/SR2/SR3. The chances of getting actual decent rules reworks in there to make deckers, mages, and shamans work as they did in those days, or a full rework of the gear to crank the tech bloat back down, are essentially zero. So it's something that'll sell to the SR4 crowd interested in having something 'like' oldschool Shadowrun on paper to scratch the itch for more after they play the video game, but that's about it.

[CanRay]

QFT

I remember when I first ran into SR4... my biggest complaint was "what foolish company would put everything they need to protect onto a wireless network that any idiot with a long enough range could just hack at directly?"

I was told I didn't know anything about computers... I guess 16 years of working as a Network Administrator, Network Engineer, and Database Administrator disqualifies me.

Considering some of the security holes I've seen IRL, I'm not surprised that there are companies that foolish.

Always remember that the biggest hole in any security system in the human element. And when the boss doesn't know jack about computers, and the Network Admin, Engineeers, and such, didn't go to the same school as him, don't have 1,000¥ haircuts, and a low golf score, said boss isn't likely to listen to them, as they know nothing about "Business", now, do they?

[CanRay]

Why get excited? Most of us who love the 2050's setting are still playing SR/SR2/SR3. The chances of getting actual decent rules reworks in there to make deckers, mages, and shamans work as they did in those days, or a full rework of the gear to crank the tech bloat back down, are essentially zero. So it's something that'll sell to the SR4 crowd interested in having something 'like' oldschool Shadowrun on paper to scratch the itch for more after they play the video game, but that's about it.

Or it's been something that's been demanded. A lot. And CGL is listening?

Just a thought.

[binarywraith]

Or it's been something that's been demanded. A lot. And CGL is listening?

Just a thought.

Hey, I'd like to hope so. I know I'm not going to make any judgement of it until I've got a copy to read. But I'm not exactly -expecting- it to be the fix-all for the new setting's drift in directions that are less fun for me, simply because that would mean reprinting half of the SR2 print line worth of rules, gear, and fluff, and I don't see that as likely what they're going for here.

[Mirilion]

Am I missing something? Isn't the security issue adressed right there in the core rulebook? low signals, wireless blocking walls, wired networks inside the office, stuff like that? I always assumed that if a place has only wireless, accessible from anywhere, it means it's not worried about security for some reason and therefore is probably a public system anyway. Even public service nodes such as traffic lights can be made as easy or as hard to hack as the GM wants. I personally favor letting hackers hack traffic lights because of the coolness factor.

Plus, I don't know much about the history but it mentions a couple of corps being responsible for developing the wireless infrastructure, so there was probably a hidden corp war about that and the wireless won. Maybe with the help of some future-resonance-machine-god who needed to be born and helped things along, or other kinds of involvement by emergent beings.

[kzt]

Because if they used real computer security the decker/hacker types wouldn't be any fun to play. It would basically be them sitting around while everyone else ran off to do stuff.

Not at all. People's assumptions about how secure modern computers systems are don't really correspond to the reality of how how insecure modern systems are. It does requires some thought and planning, but then again, in SR 'plans' on the order of "I'll walk into the police station and beat open the security door to their armory with a sledge hammer" often fail too.

Not that SR hasn't used the "We'll go out to get pizza now, try to be done hacking when we get back" model in the past. ...

[binarywraith]

Not at all. People's assumptions about how secure modern computers systems are don't really correspond to the reality of how how insecure modern systems are.

Yeah. The little 'Anonymous' group's mayhem over the last couple years, including serious annoyances to several proto-megacorps as well as the US government, especially how easily they create zombie armies for coordinated DDOS attacks, should illustrate that. Hell, the things you can do by just sitting in a coffee shop, opening an 'unsecured' wireless access point, and packet sniffing are scary to think about.

[tete]

Fake hacking is way more fun than real hacking. I think most groups would groan at the hacker dressing up as a janitor, walking into a bank, plugging a dreamcast into the network, and then waiting weeks for the data to come. Though dressing up as a firemarshal I hear is a blast.

[Angelone]

Fake hacking is way more fun than real hacking. I think most groups would groan at the hacker dressing up as a janitor, walking into a bank, plugging a dreamcast into the network, and then waiting weeks for the data to come. Though dressing up as a firemarshal I hear is a blast.

This.

[CanRay]

"Does no one respect the van?" - Hardison, Leverage

[Blade]

So how do the players of the original 2050 setting think 2070 should be like? Obviously this is just a mental exercise but I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

That's an interesting question, and I think that's one of the issues Shadowrun had. So did Cyberpunk RPG (and so did SLA in some way), and both did it completely differently.

A cyberpunk setting is a caricatural setting. As a caricature it is extreme, and not exactly realistic. For example, corps hire so many people that a large part of their customers are workers and vice-versa. Which means that if the corps sell cheap and bad food that makes people sick, they get a sick workforce. If they pay an extremely low wage, they won't get any customers. I'm convinced that with some work you can get a setting that will be both caricatural and still "realistic" and that's what I tried to do in Style Over Substance (link in sig.). Cyberpunk RPG just - mostly - ignored it and SLA used the easy way out.

The problem is that such a world is a world on the Edge, and specifically on the Edge of collapse. The Earth is polluted beyond repair, Nation States are all but extinct and the divide between poors and rich is bigger than ever. The problem is when you drag this situation for decades. In the Cyberpunk RPG, they just decided to go all the way and released a third edition that was more post-apocalyptic than cyberpunk. Shadowrun went the other way, deciding that things weren't so bad and that the state of the world wasn't very different from ours: yes, there are problems, but the system still holds.

Personally, I think there are two "good" solutions:
1. Fixed end: have a fixed timeline, with a clear end (which can be either a total collapse into a post-apocalyptic world or a transformation into a transhuman future) and just expand on the settings inside that timeline. You can then release spin-offs if you want, but you keep your cyberpunk game in a cyberpunk setting.
2. "The more it changes...": the world doesn't change a lot. Corporations are on top and there aren't any real technological advance (they'd rather spend money on advertising than R&D, and everytime a smaller innovative company comes up with something interesting they get acquired by the huge megacorps and their R&D get included in a bloated R&D department where every small decision takes years). There's just enough innovation to regularly push resource shortage or too heavy pollution levels a few years away. It always seems like the end is near, but it keeps getting pushed back, without things getting any better (or any worse).

[Mirilion]

So there can be no tech advancement where cyberpunk stays cyberpunk? I see 2070 as a more extreme version of 2050, and as far as I'm concerened this can go on forever, no need to changes genres if you don't want to. I already detailed a cyberpunk-galactic setting for a GURPS game I never got to run, for example, with escaped robotic AIs, cyborgs, psions and everyone being shadowy mercs living on the edges of society (in SPAAACE!). Sure there was a machine apocalypse, but it was ancient history at that point and just meant extreme life-banning for anyone who develops AI. We're talking megacorps (with entire star systems of their own to mess up), deniable assets, psionics running around messing people up and getting migraines, mutants and genegineered folk running around and blowing stuff up, the works.

[Blade]

First, there's a point where cyberpunk becomes post-cyberpunk: to me, it's (among other things) when implants start to be something relatively widespread rather than something a few freaky people (weird outcast tribes, high rank corporates and corporate elite troops) have.

And then you get to a point where (post)-cyberpunk becomes... something else. Once you start uploading brains, completely modifying the human being, using nano-fab everywhere, you're getting to a transhumanist setting.

I guess you could keep a cyberpunk core for a long time by finding a way to keep paradigm changes at bay, but you'll probably end up with something feeling a bit weird, like those old sci-fi settings where you can travel in space but you need a wired phone and screens are CRTs.

EDIT:
And there are a few elements that will stretch belief. For example, Cyberpunk megacorps are often portrayed as taking all resources from the land, and polluting it, without caring about the future. For the pollution, you can explain that they come up with tech to get rid of the problem, but then you wouldn't have the "polluted earth" element of this dystopian future. So you'd rather say that the tech they got only let them keep on polluting the same way without making things worse. Same for the resources (we found new resources, we found new ways to mine and so on) up to a point. Then you need something else: nano-fab, leading to post-scarcity which isn't exactly cyberpunk or going to space. But after a few generations in space, you'll have new social and political situations and probably new tech to make life in space easier. All these will probably lead to a paradigm shift of some kind, which means your world won't feel the same anymore.

[Mirilion]

First, there's a point where cyberpunk becomes post-cyberpunk: to me, it's (among other things) when implants start to be something relatively widespread rather than something a few freaky people (weird outcast tribes, high rank corporates and corporate elite troops) have.

And then you get to a point where (post)-cyberpunk becomes... something else. Once you start uploading brains, completely modifying the human being, you're getting to a transhumanist setting.

I guess you could keep a cyberpunk core for a long time by finding a way to keep paradigm changes at bay, but you'll probably end up with something feeling a bit weird, like those old sci-fi settings where you can travel in space but you need a wired phone and screens are CRTs.

Yeah, I actually planned to use brain-uploading as a horror element (protip - the upload result isn't you), available only to the very very rich. And as for the setting, I was actually aiming for a less anime-ish Cowboy Beebop.

[ravensmuse]

Here's the thing.

Patrick's post was written from a genre perspective.

Neurosis wrote from a player perspective.

They're both right.

Augmentation in classic Cyberpunk has always been a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Having to continually get augmented more and more, just to keep up with the competition, is a pretty classic trope of the genre. As is the increasing de-humanization that comes with augmentation.

Cyberpunk stories are rife with characters that get some for whatever reason, and find that they're now saddled with sometimes crippling drawbacks they weren't expecting. As befits a dystopian setting, augmentation is that "quick path to power" which always ends in tears. Even those minor side characters that don't get heavily augmented, like the sarariman with the accounting implants, or the construction worker with an industrial jackhammer cyberarm, their implants serve as shackles enslaving them to corporate masters, even if they don't realize it.

This is why most Cyberpunk games place additional 'cost' on augmentation. Whether it's cyberpsychosis, or essence loss, or whatever, you lose essential humanity when you get metal to replace your meat. If you're playing a game where getting cybernetic implants does NOT somehow eat your soul, you may be enjoying yourself, who knows, but you're not playing a Cyberpunk game.

Okay, two things - one, who are you to tell me what I'm playing?

Two - where's the mechanical support for what you're telling me here?

We have Essence loss, which is a fine mechanic for supporting the fact that 'ware is invasive and unnatural. It also screws non-magical types hard after enough play, but who cares about that, right?

...and that's it. I looked! The only other hardline, mechanical downside to 'ware is nuyen spent. There's also some optional mechanics in the corebooks (which is really where we should only be looking, as its the text that establishes the world and everything else is optional) regarding a social penalty to dealing with other people when you're heavily cybered...but that's it.

So it's great that you guys say "THIS is Shadowrun!!!" but there's nothing in there but fluff and one single hard rule to support it - and that's fluff that people pay as much attention to as they do the dark and brooding shit from Vampire the Masquerade.

Cyberpunk was an 80s vibe in a world where Watchmen was viable. Nuclear war, endless oppression, Japan was going to take over the world...and then the world grew up and things changed. So did Shadowrun, to its own benefit. It became its own thing. That's a good thing.

Trying to drag it kicking and screaming back to the 80s will do nothing but alienate the folks that want to play it now and make only a smaller niche happy. And besides, there are games that do a better version of what you want out there now - Technoir comes to mind.

Players want to play a cool character. They want to be powerful or stylish or badass, and often all of the above. RPG games are all about escapism, after all, so who wants to play Sammy Sad Sack, who is being forced into a life of pain and heartbreak and is doomed to die a whimpering death in some back alley gutter?

The trick is, of course, to somehow maintain that dystopian feel while still catering to player wants.

Which is why, again, you support the genre you want by putting in rules that enforce that feel.

You're trying to tell me that this stuff is in there, but I own every corebook with the exception of the Blue Book, and there is no support mechanically for the game you are trying to tell me exists. Is it little surprise then that people don't play it the way you guys are describing?

I may have a little emotional investment in this for sure, but shit son, stop telling me that things are there when they're not. People have been playing Shadowrun differently for at least two decades and it works because that's what Shadowrun evolved into. All anyone is going to accomplish by hitting the reset button and pretending nothing past 2050 existed is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It isn't going to work.

I am reminded of the scene from the movie 'Last Action Hero', where the protagonist Jack Slater finally meets Arnold Schwarzenegger. After considering his life so far, all Jack can say is, "I have always hated you."

I guess this is a context thing?

"Tell me that's a smoke grenade."
"Okay. *pause* It isn't."

[Kolinho]

Bull's post... I just don't agree with it. I don't really care about how the CGL folk meant for their world to feel, and here's how I see it.

The new world is a nightmare and a total prison for your mind and body. People work 12 hours a day, every day, and in their spare time they would rather lose themselves in some AR or VR paradise than do anything important. Children grow up alienated from their parents, their friends are mostly online (hang out in 4chan /b/ sometimes, in 2070 it's like that ALL THE TIME), everything is totally screwed.

People are warned about the dangers of identity theft and stuff like that, but they don't ever realize how FUCKED they are, because when someone's SIN is taken from him the crooked cops that arrest him sell his organs to tamanous and his existence has been deleted. The corps only implemented wireless because it helps them gain more power over the herds, they don't care about security. Most hackers either work for them or are hunted down like dogs - not all are "Slamm-O!" level. All the causes and all the hype you see on the trids, EVERYTHING is controlled by government and corp media, big brother sees you all the time and there's very little privacy. So all the info you get about something with your fancy AR image links and DNI was put there by corp content editors and designed by corp sociologists.

ONLY the SINless can find any sort of freedom from all this, and most of them live in urban jungles controlled by gangs anyway.
The illusion of freedom and awesome tech is spoon fed to you by megacorp PR in order to make you a slave. Freedom is for shadowrunners or others who are SINless but live inside the machine without being part of it.

Great post, as are most of your posts on this topic.

[CanRay]

Freedom is for shadowrunners or others who are SINless but live inside the machine without being part of it.

*Sings "Welcome To The Machine" in the key of off*