Nosferatu Beasthandler Mystic Adept, Rife with pitfalls, any helpful hints? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Krishach]

I've created a Nosferatu Mystic Adept for a party mage, with a subset in animal handling, with a spirit-modified psionic tradition, since the Nosf's have a nice intuition boost. I've been round and round the character concept, and I keep coming up with "gotcha's" that I missed, and tuning things a little more. It's certainly the longest I've spent on char gen ever. This is a 500 BP game, or I wouldn't have considered it.

I would like to ask if anyone knows any possible pitfalls and problems to avoid or prevent; either Nosferatu's in general, mystic adepts, or beast handlers, since it is a personal first for all three for me (never played a mage in 4th). I am aware certain animals can sense a lower essence in infected and instinctual don't like them. I have Relieve Allergy to treat the daylight blues. And I have a starting Intuition of 8, and Will of 7.

This is mostly for arc-type pitfalls, not a PC lab. Any thoughts?

[Starmage21]

I've created a Nosferatu Mystic Adept for a party mage, with a subset in animal handling, with a spirit-modified psionic tradition, since the Nosf's have a nice intuition boost. I've been round and round the character concept, and I keep coming up with "gotcha's" that I missed, and tuning things a little more. It's certainly the longest I've spent on char gen ever. This is a 500 BP game, or I wouldn't have considered it.

I would like to ask if anyone knows any possible pitfalls and problems to avoid or prevent; either Nosferatu's in general, mystic adepts, or beast handlers, since it is a personal first for all three for me (never played a mage in 4th). I am aware certain animals can sense a lower essence in infected and instinctual don't like them. I have Relieve Allergy to treat the daylight blues. And I have a starting Intuition of 8, and Will of 7.

This is mostly for arc-type pitfalls, not a PC lab. Any thoughts?

You keep coming up with those holes because Nosferatu are freaking expensive to play. Normal 400BP characters will often have 1 or 2 areas of focus where they really excel, but in that same pool, a nosferatu character will have barely even 1, and less than that 1 if you try to be minimally rounded.

In a 500BP game, you'd be able to make up for some of that, but definitely not all. I recommend you pick your areas of speciality and focus on those.

[Neraph]

I play a Nosferatu Mystic Adept also, which I lovingly refer to as the Blood Lord. A few of the key decisions I've made is to go with a Charisma tradition so you get synergy with your Compulsion and Influence Powers and to only have a Willpower/Drainstat of 4 and use Increase Attribute spells to reach Augmented Max. It'll save you points that you can spend in other areas.

[Krishach]

I ended up using Intuition, both because of roleplaying the tradition I wanted, and Intuition is the primary stat for Animal Handling.

[Patrick Goodman]

My biggest piece of advice? Don't do it to start with; it's (in my opinion) a twink move of the highest order. Infected, the Runner's Companion aside, have no business being player characters.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My biggest piece of advice? Don't do it to start with; it's (in my opinion) a twink move of the highest order. Infected, the Runner's Companion aside, have no business being player characters.

QFT... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Samoth]

Nosferatu and Vampires, agreed - no. Ghouls and other "normal" infected? Why not?

[Sephiroth]

Haters gonna hate. I for one think it's actually an intriguing and novel idea, although the mysad part and the psionic tradition part aren't really in keeping with SR canon. I would lower the Intuition and Willpower a bit, since you're going to be low on BP as it is, even with 500BP. Have you considered going karmagen and getting the Attunement(Animal) and Empower Animal metamagics? Also, are you planning on owning mundane animals or paranimals? We can give you better advice once we get some more information from you.

[almost normal]

You want to be a Nosferatu, go for it buddy. The same people who will tell you you're being cheesy are the same folks who will tell you their character has 40/43 armor and 4 passes and not bat an eye. Don't let idiots put down your idea.

[Starmage21]

You want to be a Nosferatu, go for it buddy. The same people who will tell you you're being cheesy are the same folks who will tell you their character has 40/43 armor and 4 passes and not bat an eye. Don't let idiots put down your idea.

Like Sephiroth said: Haters gonna hate.

[pbangarth]

Haters gonna hate. I for one think it's actually an intriguing and novel idea, although the mysad part and the psionic tradition part aren't really in keeping with SR canon. I would lower the Intuition and Willpower a bit, since you're going to be low on BP as it is, even with 500BP. Have you considered going karmagen and getting the Attunement(Animal) and Empower Animal metamagics? Also, are you planning on owning mundane animals or paranimals? We can give you better advice once we get some more information from you.

Glad to see you caught this thread, Sephiroth. I was going to point you to it. Good call on the animal metamagics.

[CanRay]

My biggest piece of advice? Don't do it to start with; it's (in my opinion) a twink move of the highest order. Infected, the Runner's Companion aside, have no business being player characters.

Why not? It makes a great persecuted minority, and quite a few Shadowtalkers over the years have been infected.

Ghouls at the very least. Vampires and such... Yeah, starting to get very Twinky.

[Manunancy]

Nosferatu. Mystic adept. Psionic tradition. - that's a lot of oddities in one character (even if it's not (that I know of) a surged metavariant). Mystic adept isn't that of a weird item, but the psionic tradition is defintively in oddball territory and in my opinion doesn't mesh well with a Nosferatu as far as style go. Psionic has in my opinion a new age/sci-fi feel while the Nosferatu has a far more gothic creepyness vibe.

It feels like a 'what bonuses can I pile up into my favorite schtick and screw having a background that holds together' exercise than a character. also beign a nosferatu is going to cause trouble when the character's true nature gets known - maybe not all nosferatus are amoral bastards with an unquenchable lust for power but enough of them fit the trope to make it difficult getting any sort of trust difficult at best.

[mister__joshua]

This is sort of on topic so I'll go with it, has anyone ever played a Wendigo character?

I find them particularly interesting as it's surely one of the only ways a mundane can become magical, and especially with an ork's short lifespan I can envisage a handful of wealthy/powerful orks nearing the end of their life actively seeking Wendigohood out of desperation and a thirst for power.

I could never get past the human thralls and cannibalistic rituals thing though. That and they are one of the least normal looking of the Infected. There isn't a whole lot of info on them.

[Irion]

The point with infected is always: How would a gameworld deal with something like that.
And the point is: Not nice.

So you need to press everything to either keep the nosferatus "condition" a secret. (This is very hard, depending on how you rule on their visual appearance in all ways, down to X-Rays)
Or you need to make everybody live with the fact. Tends to be a bit silly, sometimes.

The next point is the feeding part. Runners who are OK with killing people should not really mind, but the thought that someone looks at you and sees a takeaway meal should be desturbing.

[Manunancy]

Another point that may pose problem is the beastmaster aspect - in an urban setting, keeping a menagerie is going to be expensive. and im any area you won't be able to legally bring in animals on site. It's doubly true for the sort of combat trained dangerous paracritters a shadowrunner is likely to want to have around.

Drones don't need to be house-trained and can be shut off between jobs...

One can note that if the Laws figures oout that a break-in has been done with a bunch of unusual paracritters in support, the list of potential suspects will be fairly easy to narrow down, as very few peoples around will have such a menagerie in the first place.

[Xenefungus]

This is sort of on topic so I'll go with it, has anyone ever played a Wendigo character?

Now this is really not on topic.



I also think that the OPs idea is a bit too special for many rounds. Perhaps ask your players to do a one-time "freak" round where everyone plays something like this?

[mister__joshua]

Now this is really not on topic.

Ok, fair enough. I thought it was sort of on topic, the pitfalls of infected characters and all, but nevermind. I'll start anew.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Like Sephiroth said: Haters gonna hate.

More realistically, the Character will fall to his teammates...
They are carriers of a disease that can fundamentally change you into somehting that must subsist of the essence of sentient humanity. That alone makes them unplayable.

AS a Solo game, they could possibly make for a good story. But in a group, they are just ignorant.

[Starmage21]

More realistically, the Character will fall to his teammates...
They are carriers of a disease that can fundamentally change you into somehting that must subsist of the essence of sentient humanity. That alone makes them unplayable.

AS a Solo game, they could possibly make for a good story. But in a group, they are just ignorant.

Youre kind of pushing that feeding thing pretty hard. Nosferatu need 1 pt of essence every 6 months, or 1 corpsec you were going to shoot in the face for money anyway every 2.5 years. Metahuman blood can be handwaved to lifestyle. Also, outside of a few nations/corps who give rights to the infected, your existence is ideally suited to living life in the shadows. Just like ghouls, it is entirely possible to play an HMHVV-I infectee without having killed anyone at all, nor maiming them for life in any way that they'd notice or care about.
And even if you do play a complete monster, there are more than a few runners out there who are worse than a vamp could ever hope to be, and theyre completely (meta)human.

Shadowrun is not the World of Darkness, where the entire game is centered around a story of personal horror at being a monster and dealing with it. It is Shadowrun, where anyone can eke out an existence doing illegal things for bad megacorporations and shooting people in the face for money, and vampires are just more pariahs with magical AIDS.

[almost normal]

Youre kind of pushing that feeding thing pretty hard. Nosferatu need 1 pt of essence every 6 months, or 1 corpsec you were going to shoot in the face for money anyway every 2.5 years. Metahuman blood can be handwaved to lifestyle. Also, outside of a few nations/corps who give rights to the infected, your existence is ideally suited to living life in the shadows. Just like ghouls, it is entirely possible to play an HMHVV-I infectee without having killed anyone at all, nor maiming them for life in any way that they'd notice or care about.
And even if you do play a complete monster, there are more than a few runners out there who are worse than a vamp could ever hope to be, and theyre completely (meta)human.

Shadowrun is not the World of Darkness, where the entire game is centered around a story of personal horror at being a monster and dealing with it. It is Shadowrun, where anyone can eke out an existence doing illegal things for bad megacorporations and shooting people in the face for money, and vampires are just more pariahs with magical AIDS.

Please don't introduce reason and fact to counter hyperbolic comments. It handicaps folk when you break out the way things actually are, as opposed to how they insist they are.

[Yerameyahu]

There's not much point in being nosferatu if you're only draining 1 Essence every 6 months (and I don't understand why the rules make that so low, anyway). Every build I've seen is focused on tearing through human cattle like crazy in order to fuel huge magical boosts. If you're "handwaving" away the blood, you're seriously missing the point. It's also silly to ignore the fact that shooting someone and eating someone's soul are not culturally equivalent, whatever your (mostly metagame) logic says.

[Neraph]

More realistically, the Character will fall to his teammates...
They are carriers of a disease that can fundamentally change you into somehting that must subsist of the essence of sentient humanity. That alone makes them unplayable.

AS a Solo game, they could possibly make for a good story. But in a group, they are just ignorant.

Assuming your group knows.
Assuming your group is bigoted.
Assuming they can actually do anything to you.
Assuming Infected are so radically alien in thought to mortals that they are fundamentally different (see bigoted, above).

Point in case, the game I play my Blood Lord in has survived many, many encounters where they otherwise probably would have TPK'd (if not then close to it) without the presence of my nosferatu. The Fear, Influence, and Compulsion Powers are astounding, especially with Black Magic as your tradition (so you boost your Charisma).

Essence Drain can easily be handled. You get a 1/6 Contact or find a hobo, right? Then you stack Influence and Compulsion on him/her to stay at your place, right? Then you pump them full of Renfield until they become addicted, right? Now for every point of Essence you pay to make a dose, your new dependent gets 1-6 points of Essence (with no cap listed) that you can siphon straight back off. Welcome to (as Nosferatu) a +6 Magic Rating for 12 hours every 12 hours.

There's not much point in being nosferatu if you're only draining 1 Essence every 6 months (and I don't understand why the rules make that so low, anyway). Every build I've seen is focused on tearing through human cattle like crazy in order to fuel huge magical boosts. If you're "handwaving" away the blood, you're seriously missing the point. It's also silly to ignore the fact that shooting someone and eating someone's soul are not culturally equivalent, whatever your (mostly metagame) logic says.

You can "handwaive" away the blood with either: A) (I know you all dislike it but it's perfectly RAW) Nutrition, or B) paying 30% more in lifestyle or using the expanded lifestyle rules from Runner's Companion and choosing at least Medium for Necessities.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Youre kind of pushing that feeding thing pretty hard. Nosferatu need 1 pt of essence every 6 months, or 1 corpsec you were going to shoot in the face for money anyway every 2.5 years. Metahuman blood can be handwaved to lifestyle. Also, outside of a few nations/corps who give rights to the infected, your existence is ideally suited to living life in the shadows. Just like ghouls, it is entirely possible to play an HMHVV-I infectee without having killed anyone at all, nor maiming them for life in any way that they'd notice or care about.
And even if you do play a complete monster, there are more than a few runners out there who are worse than a vamp could ever hope to be, and theyre completely (meta)human.

Shadowrun is not the World of Darkness, where the entire game is centered around a story of personal horror at being a monster and dealing with it. It is Shadowrun, where anyone can eke out an existence doing illegal things for bad megacorporations and shooting people in the face for money, and vampires are just more pariahs with magical AIDS.

You are entitled to that opinion... Most would disagree... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Please don't introduce reason and fact to counter hyperbolic comments. It handicaps folk when you break out the way things actually are, as opposed to how they insist they are.

Except that his opinion on how a Nosferatu is is not supported by the fluff. So... WHere is the logic then?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Assuming your group knows.
Assuming your group is bigoted.
Assuming they can actually do anything to you.
Assuming Infected are so radically alien in thought to mortals that they are fundamentally different (see bigoted, above).

Point in case, the game I play my Blood Lord in has survived many, many encounters where they otherwise probably would have TPK'd (if not then close to it) without the presence of my nosferatu. The Fear, Influence, and Compulsion Powers are astounding, especially with Black Magic as your tradition (so you boost your Charisma).

Essence Drain can easily be handled. You get a 1/6 Contact or find a hobo, right? Then you stack Influence and Compulsion on him/her to stay at your place, right? Then you pump them full of Renfield until they become addicted, right? Now for every point of Essence you pay to make a dose, your new dependent gets 1-6 points of Essence (with no cap listed) that you can siphon straight back off. Welcome to (as Nosferatu) a +6 Magic Rating for 12 hours every 12 hours.

You can "handwaive" away the blood with either: A) (I know you all dislike it but it's perfectly RAW) Nutrition, or B) paying 30% more in lifestyle or using the expanded lifestyle rules from Runner's Companion and choosing at least Medium for Necessities.

You can rationalize anything... You are very good at that. But taking the world view into account, your Nosferatu will be dead shortly after he is introduced to the team. At least in my team anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Starmage21]

There's not much point in being nosferatu if you're only draining 1 Essence every 6 months (and I don't understand why the rules make that so low, anyway). Every build I've seen is focused on tearing through human cattle like crazy in order to fuel huge magical boosts. If you're "handwaving" away the blood, you're seriously missing the point. It's also silly to ignore the fact that shooting someone and eating someone's soul are not culturally equivalent, whatever your (mostly metagame) logic says.

To date, outside of a couple magical traditions, Essence does not necessarily equate to a soul that is destined for some religious afterlife that by being essence-drained you are depriving them from. If this was the case, then all cyber/bio/gene/whatever-ware is just as fundamentally bad as having it drained away to sustain a vampire. Instead, it is better thought of as a person's sustaining life-force or life-energy. When it is all gone, you die, even if there is no biological reason for it to be so.

As for handwaving away blood somehow missing the point, apparently youre missing my simultaneously. Because this is not the World of Darkness, such personal horrors as having to feed on what your character probably thinks of as his fellow man is decidedly NOT the point. This is Shadowrun, where you have bigger concerns, such as shooting corpsec guards in the face for money and sticking it to The Man (if youre still into the cyberpunk thing).

[Yerameyahu]

It doesn't matter if it's the same as a soul (… which doesn't exist, at all). Installing cyber against someone's will is *also* bad, by the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, you're wrong. It's not okay to "handwave" an exotic requirement as 'just lifestyle' in SR. Whether or not this is WOD is not relevant: in SR, you can't "handwave" important things like that.

[Starmage21]

You can rationalize anything... You are very good at that. But taking the world view into account, your Nosferatu will be dead shortly after he is introduced to the team. At least in my team anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

At this point you might as well get up and leave the game table. Being inflexible to the desires of your fellow players puts you* well into the area of the asshole or dickhead of the group. If it is going to escalate to the point of players attacking each other, instead of participating in a cooperative game, youre just as susceptible to the vamp's influence powers altering your world view. A certain amount of metagaming is acceptable, and the extent to which that the other players will go to accept a player's infected PC is entirely subjective to the group.

*you being the general sense of you, not a personal attack or comment at Tymeaus Jalynsfein or his attitudes.

To date, my own Nosferatu PC has fed exactly once. The group accepted a freaking wetwork job during a session I missed, so I figured what the hell.

[Starmage21]

It doesn't matter if it's the same as a soul (… which doesn't exist, at all). Installing cyber against someone's will is *also* bad, by the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, you're wrong. It's not okay to "handwave" an exotic requirement as 'lifestyle' in SR. Whether or not this is WOD is not relevant: in SR, you can't "handwave" important things like that.

If it isnt OK, then why do we have so many means by which to do exactly that? 30% lifestyle increase directly suggested in the same book the infected are introduced as playable characters and the Nutrition spell in Street Magic are both means by which we can explicitly handwave the requirement for metahuman blood.

[Neraph]

You can rationalize anything... You are very good at that. But taking the world view into account, your Nosferatu will be dead shortly after he is introduced to the team. At least in my team anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Again, assuming you know and assuming you can.

No, you're wrong. It's not okay to "handwave" an exotic requirement as 'just lifestyle' in SR. Whether or not this is WOD is not relevant: in SR, you can't "handwave" important things like that.

You can by using the Optional Rule found in Runner's Companion, page 78, in the sidebar.

[Irion]

And a childmolester is no concern for your normal bankrobber... Why should he care? There is no reason to.

There is a big red line between metagame Logic and how people react.
80% of all manslaughters and murders are probably not really beneficial to anybody or there is a far better solution for everybody.

We are not a rational bunch. I mean lots of people would like to execute some sorts of mentally sick people, we were burning witches, genocides, rassism is very much alive and most of us do not give a fuck about anything whichs DNA is not Human.

And if there is something what humans do better than hating each other, it is hating somebody else together
So yeah, Tymeaus Jalynsfein is right. If it comes the the gameworld "facts and reason" do not have a good stand, they do not have a good stand in the real world either.

[Yerameyahu]

Adding 30% is not handwaving, it's paying for it. If Nutrition is even allowed, that again is a positive action you have to routinely take. Even then, I wouldn't let the player just *forget* about it after that, like setting their electric bill on autopay. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

There's not much point in being nosferatu if you're only draining 1 Essence every 6 months (and I don't understand why the rules make that so low, anyway). Every build I've seen is focused on tearing through human cattle like crazy in order to fuel huge magical boosts. If you're "handwaving" away the blood, you're seriously missing the point. It's also silly to ignore the fact that shooting someone and eating someone's soul are not culturally equivalent, whatever your (mostly metagame) logic says.

When Carl and Marc introduced nosferatu in Paranormal Animals of Europe, their apparent mandate was that everything in Europe had to be biggerer and badderer than anything in North America, because obviously Europe is cooler than North America could ever possibly hope to be. "Well, our vampires are better than yours!" was, apparently, the thought process. That's the only thing I can figure out.

Note that I don't know either Carl or Marc, and I could be 100% wrong in my though process there, but as near as I can figure, that's why nosferatu only need a point of Essence every six months, and why they can drain so much more than a regular vampire, and any of a number of other things that make my life a lot more interesting than I would sometimes like it to be.

[Patrick Goodman]

Nosferatu and Vampires, agreed - no. Ghouls and other "normal" infected? Why not?

I can't remember a time in the past 23 years of playing Shadowrun where I've looked at the core book, and the core book alone, and looked at the character generation options inherent to that core book, and said, "You know, there's not enough variety. I need to play something completely out there for this game to retain my interest." Sadly, though, this is a thought process I see a lot of these days.

While I can see where Tom was coming from, and where I think he intended to go, when he made ghouls playable, I didn't agree with the decision. Even when I broke down and played myself a ghoul back in SR3. I didn't necessarily think it was a good idea. That said, I can see a point being made for ghouls as PCs. I might not like it, but I can see it as a viable alternative even as I actively try to convince people not to do it.

There's no such thing as "normal" Infected, by the way. Ghouls aren't normal. Vampires, wendigos, goblins...they're damn sure not normal.

I don't think, and I never have thought, that any Type I Infected has any business as a player character. They're monsters. Ghouls are bad enough, having to feed on human flesh, but they can get their food from a chop shop. Someone has to die for them to eat, yes, but they don't necessarily have to kill their next meal themselves.

Type I, though...to survive, you've gotta get up close and personal with your victim...and you can't just get lunch second-hand, as it were, from Tamanous. Tamanous doesn't stock Essence...and you can't hand-wave that away as a 30% increase in lifestyle cost. The game stops being about shadowruns and becomes about the vampire getting his Essence fix.

They wanted rules for PC vampires from me 12, 13 years ago when I first wrote the piece for Running Wild when it was still an SR3 book, and I told them no then. If I'd been consulted when the notion of Infected PCs was being put forth for the RC, I'd have fought tooth and claw against it then. It's a Bad Idea.

But you don't have to listen to me, since I know from elsewhere in this thread that I'm just a hater.

[Patrick Goodman]

You want to be a Nosferatu, go for it buddy. The same people who will tell you you're being cheesy are the same folks who will tell you their character has 40/43 armor and 4 passes and not bat an eye. Don't let idiots put down your idea.

I think enough people have seen my characters in enough publications to know that this is not, in fact, always the case. I tell someone their character concept is twinky, I can point them to enough well-done characters to show that I know whereof I speak.

[Irion]

their apparent mandate was that everything in Europe had to be biggerer and badderer than anything in North America, because obviously Europe is cooler than North America could ever possibly hope to be.

Yeah, such attitude seems to go around a lot in Fantasy and Science Fiction.
(Our lasers need to be bigger, our ships need to be fast and the staffs of our wizards needs to be...)
Its like Lord of Rings would mention that Andúril is much, much bigger than Excalibur.

[Cojuzei]

I love how far off topic this has gotten. It's gone from "Can you guys help me with my character" to "OMGFLAMEQQFLAMEFESTFLAMERMCFLAMINGTON!" Seriously, there needs to be an age requirement on this forum.

When you're doing your spell selection, make sure to think about who you'll be facing in a combat scenario. One fight you may be facing trolls with HMGs. Next it may be a cyborg or even a set of drones. Another fight you may be facing mages or even countermages. Try to be as versatile as you can.

The only pitfall I really see is in the animals you train. It takes time and commitment to train an animal, and if it's not done well they can be killed in the first fight. If you train them well enough they can be a huge attribute to the party, but if any of them die it's not like replacing munitions. You have to either train it from a pup yourself or buy a new one...which is vastly expensive and still not guaranteed to follow you explicitly beyond its next meal.

Now, what I might suggest is combining your animal training with spirit summoning. Could be an interesting way to go, summoning spirits to possess the animals you already have, using those to do things for you. Since spirits have immunity to natural weaponry, and since they give their abilities to those they possess, not only will your animals now be guaranteed sentience but also a high enough force spirit will be next to godlike. Even if another mage breaks the summon, your trained animal will still shred them to pieces on its own while you're summoning another. This synergy could work well if you plan for it.

[Starmage21]

I can't remember a time in the past 23 years of playing Shadowrun where I've looked at the core book, and the core book alone, and looked at the character generation option inherent to that core book, and said, "You know, there's not enough variety. I need to play something completely out there for this game to retain my interest." Sadly, though, this is a thought process I see a lot of these days.

While I can see where Tom was coming from, and where I think he intended to go, when he made ghouls playable, I didn't agree with the decision. Even when I broke down and played myself a ghoul back in SR3. I didn't necessarily think it was a good idea. That said, I can see a point being made for ghouls as PCs. I might not like it, but I can see it as a viable alternative even as I actively try to convince people not to do it.

There's no such thing as "normal" Infected, by the way. Ghouls aren't normal. Vampires, wendigos, goblins...they're damn sure not normal.

I don't think, and I never have thought, that [b]any Type I Infected has any business as a player character. They're monsters. Ghouls are bad enough, having to feed on human flesh, but they can get their food from a chop shop. Someone has to die for them to eat, yes, but they don't necessarily have to kill their next meal themselves.[/b]

Type I, though...to survive, you've gotta get up close and personal with your victim...and you can't just get lunch second-hand, as it were, from Tamanous. Tamanous doesn't stock Essence...and you can't hand-wave that away as a 30% increase in lifestyle cost. The game stops being about shadowruns and becomes about the vampire getting his Essence fix.

They wanted rules for PC vampires from me 12, 13 years ago when I first wrote the piece for Running Wild when it was still an SR3 book, and I told them no then. If I'd been consulted when the notion of Infected PCs was being put forth for the RC, I'd have fought tooth and claw against it then. It's a Bad Idea.

But you don't have to listen to me, since I know from elsewhere in this thread that I'm just a hater.

Bolded the important part.

Currently, pop-culture disagrees with you. The monstrous beings who prey on humans for food can be romanticized as has been done by a whole bunch of popular fiction*. The fact that people can still vehemently refuse to accept that the two concepts are not mutually exclusive is pretty much what makes them haters.

In many ways, the group of shadowrunners that features a vampire is the same as any number of predator-prey relations that shouldnt work, but sometimes do in the animal kingdom. Its like the cat & chick picture that still floating around on Facebook shares that says "I love you, food." http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress....loves-food1.jpg

*Twilight doesnt count. Those arent vampires. Theyre gay superheroes.

[almost normal]

I think enough people have seen my characters in enough publications to know that this is not, in fact, always the case. I tell someone their character concept is twinky, I can point them to enough well-done characters to show that I know whereof I speak.

I guess I just don't like your feelings on the matter. It makes me think that if you were a writer on the old Star Trek, you'd get pissed Spock was a half-vulcan, since we've got plenty of human options around. I won't even get into Odo. Now, I might be in the same boat as you, and just not know it. I, for instance, feel that restrictions tend to produce the most creativity, especially in writing. As a game though, Shadowrun just doesn't bring that out for me. If the total sum difference between my character and your character is a +/- 1 dice pool on a few skills, it's just not as interesting to me. Making a pacifist Nosferatu? Now there's something I can let the juices fly with.

[Samoth]

My only problem with the Vampire and Nosferatu as written is the Regeneration quality. No PC should have access to that, but if the GM allows it they can.

All the other infected types have some very good positives in terms of stat boots, but also severe negatives that they have to deal with. Of course V/N isn't all positive either, but they have game-breaking abilities that make them stupidly powerful.

[Starmage21]

My only problem with the Vampire and Nosferatu as written is the Regeneration quality. No PC should have access to that, but if the GM allows it they can.

All the other infected types have some very good positives in terms of stat boots, but also severe negatives that they have to deal with. Of course V/N isn't all positive either, but they have game-breaking abilities that make them stupidly powerful.

You obviously havent been playing SR4.

[Samoth]

I haven't played in over a decade - what are you referring to?

If you mean Regeneration, I checked my book and saw many other infected have it as well. Sorry for the error.

[Irion]

I guess I just don't like your feelings on the matter. It makes me think that if you were a writer on the old Star Trek, you'd get pissed Spock was a half-vulcan,

No, it would be like making him a half romulan.

since we've got plenty of human options around. I won't even get into Odo.

Odo was a plot element. It is like putting seven of nine on deep space nine. Odo on the enterprice and Worf with Captain Kirk.
To stay in StarTrek. (There might be even stranger things, but my StarFu is not good enough for that.

Now, I might be in the same boat as you, and just not know it. I, for instance, feel that restrictions tend to produce the most creativity, especially in writing. As a game though, Shadowrun just doesn't bring that out for me. If the total sum difference between my character and your character is a +/- 1 dice pool on a few skills, it's just not as interesting to me. Making a pacifist Nosferatu? Now there's something I can let the juices fly with.

And if you char only defines itself by dicepools, well I guess you have already lost.
There is nothing against I want to play a vampire because this campaign and the situation ongoing fluff explainations....
But to make you character more interesting? It is build to fail, from the start.
Why? Because exactly this won't happen. Why?
Because if your group would really take you for what you are, the game would be about the groups reaction to you and the plot would not matter anymore.
So in order to not have to do that, they just ignore what you are.

It was mentioned early: SR is not WOD. So the whole taiming your inner beast is gone. It burns down to adjust you lifestye, take care of essence loss.
How may the rest of the players react? They shoot you in the head and take the reward or they just ignore it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Again, assuming you know and assuming you can.

Got to pass through a ward sometime. The second you fail the ward is the second you are a dead Nosferatu, at least at my table. And since many establishments have Wards established... it is only a matter of time.

Point is, that even if you are capable of defending yourself, what runner is going to willingly run with you once they know? None at my table, I can guarantee you that one. And if you pay attention to the Fluff, the vast majority are not going to either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

At this point you might as well get up and leave the game table. Being inflexible to the desires of your fellow players puts you* well into the area of the asshole or dickhead of the group. If it is going to escalate to the point of players attacking each other, instead of participating in a cooperative game, youre just as susceptible to the vamp's influence powers altering your world view. A certain amount of metagaming is acceptable, and the extent to which that the other players will go to accept a player's infected PC is entirely subjective to the group.

*you being the general sense of you, not a personal attack or comment at Tymeaus Jalynsfein or his attitudes.

To date, my own Nosferatu PC has fed exactly once. The group accepted a freaking wetwork job during a session I missed, so I figured what the hell.

I do get your point, but why would the Nosferatu player have the privelege of shoving a character concept down the throats of those who do not want one in game?

For the record, Infected PC's are not allowed at our table, so it is not that much an issue for me. You get infected in game play, you are done as a character, make a new one. NPC's are dealth with on a case by case basis, dependant upon circumstance. Obviously, you do not attempt to massacre an Infected if you are by yourself and he has backup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Starmage21]

I do get your point, but why would the Nosferatu player have the privelege of shoving a character concept down the throats of those who do not want one in game?

For the record, Infected PC's are not allowed at our table, so it is not that much an issue for me. You get infected in game play, you are done as a character, make a new one. NPC's are dealth with on a case by case basis, dependant upon circumstance. Obviously, you do not attempt to massacre an Infected if you are by yourself and he has backup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It goes both ways, I would never want to deny that. You have as much right to play your character as I do to play mine. The question is, how much effort do you put in to meeting on that middle ground. If that effort is near zero, you are a douchebag.

[Irion]

@Starmage21
Here is something I have to add.
If you play a core book character you ARE in the middle ground.

Not every option is equal. If I want to play a Mary Sue, I have to ask the other players. And they can refuse. And if they do, they are not douchebags, they are well within their rights.
And advanced characters options are Mary Sues per definition. Yes, some Metavariant is the same level as an AI or a free Spirit

[Starmage21]

@Starmage21
Here is something I have to add.
If you play a core book character you ARE in the middle ground.

Not every option is equal. If I want to play a Mary Sue, I have to ask the other players. And they can refuse. And if they do, they are not douchebags, they are well within their rights.
And advanced characters options are Mary Sues per definition. Yes, some Metavariant is the same level as an AI or a free Spirit

No, not really. It is no different than two or more players arguing over a table about who can't play an ork because the other one hates orcs and wont work with them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It goes both ways, I would never want to deny that. You have as much right to play your character as I do to play mine. The question is, how much effort do you put in to meeting on that middle ground. If that effort is near zero, you are a douchebag.

I put no effort into allowing an Infected at our table. They are not allowed, so it is a non-issue.

As a character, if I was to run into an infected that looked at me like I was lunch (and you must admit, they have a hard time NOT doing that), then that would end in a Dead Infected, PC or not. That is not an outlandish mindset, though, in the Shadowrun world. Infected are not your friends, and they would as soon eat you as look at you. Common throughout the fluff. The character would be justified.

[Irion]

No, not really. It is no different than two or more players arguing over a table about who can't play an ork because the other one hates orcs and wont work with them.

No, it is not. Orks are COREBOOK. They are neither optional nor exotic. They make up a big part of SR background.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, not really. It is no different than two or more players arguing over a table about who can't play an ork because the other one hates orcs and wont work with them.

See, I would not go that route. I would take a Prejudice Against Orks, and then roleplay that out. Makes for some good in-character drama. Could it end in one or the other dying? Most likely. But I would never disallow the Ork because the character hated Orks.

Not the same thing with Infected, though. The Ork hater is not going to become an Ork because of the Orks presence. It is QUITE possible for a character to become infected through association with an INFECTED character type, on the other hand. ESPECIALLY if you do not change the Ghoul Virus to Injection.

[Starmage21]

See, I would not go that route. I would take a Prejudice Against Orks, and then roleplay that out. Makes for some good in-character drama. Could it end in one or the other dying? Most likely. But I would never disallow the Ork because the character hated Orks.

Not the same thing with Infected, though. The Ork hater is not going to become an Ork because of the Orks presence. It is QUITE possible for a character to become infected through association with an INFECTED character type, on the other hand. ESPECIALLY if you do not change the Ghoul Virus to Injection.

So why couldnt you roleplay that out with an infected character? I fail to see the difference.

[Starmage21]

No, it is not. Orks are COREBOOK. They are neither optional nor exotic. They make up a big part of SR background.

Which book they appear in has no bearing on this dicussion.

[Irion]

Which book they appear in has no bearing on this dicussion.

Well, I disagree.
There is some general ground, every player has access to. If one player wants to restrict the access on this ground, he needs to give a reason.
But if you are talking about an optional rule in a supplement book, well it is an other issue.

[Yerameyahu]

It does if you actually read the whole quoted statement: optional, exotic, and (extremely) uncommon all matter.

[almost normal]

No, it would be like making him a half romulan.


Odo was a plot element. It is like putting seven of nine on deep space nine. Odo on the enterprice and Worf with Captain Kirk.
To stay in StarTrek. (There might be even stranger things, but my StarFu is not good enough for that.

And if you char only defines itself by dicepools, well I guess you have already lost.

So the entire point to your post was to say all of my analogies are wrong, the analogies that you created are somehow closer to what I had envisioned in my own head, and that my conclusions are wrong as well?

Not only are you way-off base, you're also an asshole.

[Starmage21]

It does if you actually read the whole quoted statement: optional, exotic, and (extremely) uncommon all matter.

no its a big freaking fallacious argument. And if you have to throw fallacious about rather than tacking the issue directly, we're no longer having a discourse. Youre just flinging poo.

[Critias]

Which book they appear in has no bearing on this dicussion.

I would posit that it certainly does, especially when said book introduces the character types as "options," says that "groups should consider the impact and ramifications they might have" on the game, suggests that groups should "carefully consider and discuss these following material before introducing it into play," tells GMs point-blank that they are "cautioned not to allow certain options into play," because "some of the character types may very well unbalance the game," warns that players and GMs should "read the rules carefully," because "Infected characters are very powerful and can be disruptive and unbalancing," and on and on and on.

[Manunancy]

In that character's case, the psionic/nosferatu/beastmaster combo is definitively weird and I have a hard time figuring out how that particular mix came to be. It feels sort of like a ribs-mango pizza, a bizarre mix of ingredients that definitively feels like they don't belong together.

It supposes the character was already awakened before getting infected, as it would be very, very odd (as in quantum-mechanics level probability) for someone to turn to the definitively oddball psionic 'tradition' upon turning into a nosferatu.

Along with all the relational problems of a nosferatu, that character doesn't sound as a character but rather like an aphazard mix of rare occurences. Something that's been cobbled together to get cool powers and bonuses without nary a thought about what it's going to mean in term of character.

[Starmage21]

I would posit that it certainly does, especially when said book introduces the character types as "options," says that "groups should consider the impact and ramifications they might have" on the game, suggests that groups should "carefully consider and discuss these following material before introducing it into play," tells GMs point-blank that they are "cautioned not to allow certain options into play," because "some of the character types may very well unbalance the game," warns that players and GMs should "read the rules carefully," because "Infected characters are very powerful and can be disruptive and unbalancing," and on and on and on.

I funny statement, considering that the premise behind any kind of point system is that if you paid enough points for it, its balanced.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So why couldnt you roleplay that out with an infected character? I fail to see the difference.

As I said, if one was at our table, and I found out, he would be a Dead Infected. Case Closed. That is how the game world rolls in that regard.
The problem is that such a reaction tends to have OOC consequences. We avoid that whole pitfall by simply not allowing Infected at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Starmage21]

As I said, if one was at our table, and I found out, he would be a Dead Infected. Case Closed. That is how the game world rolls in that regard.
The problem is that such a reaction tends to have OOC consequences. We avoid that whole pitfall by simply not allowing Infected at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Really? I guess we're just completely ignoring the infected-friendly governments/corporations at this point, yes?

The world is in something of a cultural swing towards accepting the infected, especially ghouls. They've been around for 20? years at this point, and people have had time to get used to the idea of them being around. That doesnt mean there arent bigoted people in the world, or even only a few. It just means that on the worst day, segregation was just abolished, and you are black.

[Critias]

I funny statement, considering that the premise behind any kind of point system is that if you paid enough points for it, its balanced.

In a perfect world, sure.

But as it is, it's made very clear to players and GMs alike that about half the stuff in Runner's Companion is absolutely optional, and should very much be discussed and agreed upon by any given game table before introducing elements of it to their game.

You can pretend it doesn't say that if you want to, I guess, but your stubborn refusal to acknowledge it detracts from your argument, not the position of those who are agreeing with the rulebook.

[Irion]

So the entire point to your post was to say all of my analogies are wrong, the analogies that you created are somehow closer to what I had envisioned in my own head, and that my conclusions are wrong as well?

Not only are you way-off base, you're also an asshole.

I do not get what you want from me?
Dissagreeing with you makes me an asshole and way-off base?

Yes, I am saying that they are wrong. Vulcans are part of the Federation, the first Race humans made contact with. Odo is part of the "species" the federation will be at war with most of the time in Deep space nine. They are neither exotic nor out of place.

So yes, your analogies are wrong and as a result of that your conclusions are wrong too.

And since I did not want to close on only saying you are wrong, I made suggestions of possible analogies which would fit the issue we are discussion.

If we would be talking about a group of vampire hunters, a vampire would not be off. (Since the advanture will deal with vampires anyway) (If we were looking at this, the odo analogy would totally fit)

[Starmage21]

In a perfect world, sure.

But as it is, it's made very clear to players and GMs alike that about half the stuff in Runner's Companion is absolutely optional, and should very much be discussed and agreed upon by any given game table before introducing elements of it to their game.

You can pretend it doesn't say that if you want to, I guess, but your stubborn refusal to acknowledge it detracts from your argument, not the position of those who are agreeing with the rulebook.

I'm not pretending it doesnt say that at all, but dont the other splats say that as well? I cant recall specifically right now, but if they do then why is Runner's Companion being regarded as an exception? Basically, if i'm being forced to now play out of the corebook, why arent you? "you cannot play infected" holds the same bearing as being barred from any options presented in the other splats; therefor to have any reasonable discourse, we must assume that our discussion takes place in a world where these options are not barred.

[Irion]

@Starmage21
But yes, it hold true for everybody. The optional rules out of Augmentation need also to be discussed with your group.

And options that espacially state, that they might "break" the game should be considered carefully and probably houseruled to fit the playstyle of the group.

[Starmage21]

@Starmage21
But yes, it hold true for everybody. The optional rules out of Augmentation need also to be discussed with your group.

And options that espacially state, that they might "break" the game should be considered carefully and probably houseruled to fit the playstyle of the group.

Exactly why which book the option appears in holds no bearing on the discussion. The entire discussion is in fact predicated on the allowance of the infected at the game table.

[Critias]

Exactly why which book the option appears in holds no bearing on the discussion. The entire discussion is in fact predicated on the allowance of the infected at the game table.

Except for the part of the discussion where people say "infected aren't allowed at my game table," and you shout those people down and call them assholes and idiots if they have that stance, you mean? Oh, and the part where you keep equating orks (a core rulebook choice, in no way listed or mentioned by the rules as being optional and controversial) to Infected (who GMs and players are repeatedly warned about), that part of the discussion, too?

[Starmage21]

Except for the part of the discussion where people say "infected aren't allowed at my game table," and you shout those people down and call them assholes and idiots if they have that stance, you mean?

No, I've never done that if you go back and read what I've posted.

[Starmage21]

Except for the part of the discussion where people say "infected aren't allowed at my game table," and you shout those people down and call them assholes and idiots if they have that stance, you mean? Oh, and the part where you keep equating orks (a core rulebook choice, in no way listed or mentioned by the rules as being optional and controversial) to Infected (who GMs and players are repeatedly warned about), that part of the discussion, too?

I think you've lost track of the situation. If you go back and reread the original situation, where Tymeaus Jalynsfein talks about the reaction of his player-character, you'll discover that the analogy stands.

[Critias]

No, I've never done that if you go back and read what I've posted.

TJ said, both in-game and meta-game ways, that Infected aren't welcome at his game table. Part of his reasoning for making this statement is directly in-line with the repeated warnings about allowing Infected in a game, right there in the rulebook that tells you about Infected, when it explains that they should be carefully discussed and considered before being allowed to disrupt a game.

You replied with "At this point you might as well get up and leave the game table. Being inflexible to the desires of your fellow players puts you* well into the area of the asshole or dickhead of the group."

If it was not your intent to insist that someone has to let you play your Nosferatu in any game you want to play your Nosferatu or they're an asshole or a dickhead, then perhaps you need to be a little more clear. Because as it is, you're certainly coming off as someone who is eager to play his Nosferatu, and who will ignore or belittle anyone -- including the rulebook -- that tells him he cannot, regardless of the attitudes of everyone else at the game table.

[almost normal]

Vulcans are part of the Federation

,

And? The Infected are part of society, some less then others. Your analogy, 'corrections' (laughable as they may be) and thus conclusion, are all wrong. In the future, please refrain from misguided attempts to correct the posited notions of others when you've clearly got no idea what you're talking about.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

Currently, pop-culture disagrees with you. The monstrous beings who prey on humans for food can be romanticized as has been done by a whole bunch of popular fiction*. The fact that people can still vehemently refuse to accept that the two concepts are not mutually exclusive is pretty much what makes them haters.

And because pop culture has spoken, I'm automatically wrong. Pop culture can pretty much kiss my ass; being popular doesn't make it right. Being romanticized sure doesn't make something right. I can romanticize any number of vile things; doesn't make them right.

Vampires, especially in Shadowrun, are monsters, straight up, as they have been for most of their literary existence (and as they should be again). It's tragic, but it's also the way things are. Just because some bleeding hearts want to paint it differently doesn't change a thing.

I guess I just don't like your feelings on the matter.

You've got that right. I'm not trying to be popular anymore.

It makes me think that if you were a writer on the old Star Trek, you'd get pissed Spock was a half-vulcan, since we've got plenty of human options around. I won't even get into Odo.

This almost made me fall off my chair with paroxysms of laughter. (Sorry; I just got to play that word in a game of Words with Friends for a bajillion points, and I'm still kind of jazzed about that, so it might pepper my speech for the rest of the day.)

You do know what my other gaming gig is, don't you? I keep a mostly-dead Star Trek gaming system alive in my copious unstructured free time. I can't say for certain, but I'm willing to bet I've been a Trekkie longer than you've been alive.

I've never had a problem with Spock's heritage, as a fan or a writer, and frankly, I think it's a specious argument since the two aren't really analogous at all. Spock doesn't cause death and/or suffering by virtue of his very existence. Vampires, et al, do.

Now, I might be in the same boat as you, and just not know it.

Wouldn't be the first time I'd seen that happen.

[Starmage21]

If it was not your intent to insist that someone has to let you play your Nosferatu in any game you want to play your Nosferatu or they're an asshole or a dickhead, then perhaps you need to be a little more clear. Because as it is, you're certainly coming off as someone who is eager to play his Nosferatu, and who will ignore or belittle anyone -- including the rulebook -- that tells him he cannot, regardless of the attitudes of everyone else at the game table.

Actually, you know what, this is exactly what I am saying: If someone sits down at a game table, and after having discussed with the GM what characters are and are not allowed, they have every right to play that character, and any player that refuses to cooperate by at least meeting the other player at some middle ground is simply being a douchebag. I would do exactly the same for anyone who had joined my gaming group, even if they played some archetype that I didnt like, so I expect the same of everyone else. We're playing a cooperative game after all, and it doesnt work if the players dont fucking cooperate.

[almost normal]

TJ said, both in-game and meta-game ways, that Infected aren't welcome at his game table. Part of his reasoning for making this statement is directly in-line with the repeated warnings about allowing Infected in a game, right there in the rulebook that tells you about Infected, when it explains that they should be carefully discussed and considered before being allowed to disrupt a game.

I normally agree with your sentiment, but using the 'The book says it could be bad' argument just doesn't fly. By the book, summoning casters are some of the most egregiously overpowered points of the game, cost nowhere near the extra BP of an infected, and yet the book doesn't go out of its way to mention just how broken a game will be if you let the party wield a small army of force 6 spirits.

Quite frankly, the way the dev's weigh power seems to have no correlation with the way an actual SR game runs.

[fistandantilus4....]

So the entire point to your post was to say all of my analogies are wrong, the analogies that you created are somehow closer to what I had envisioned in my own head, and that my conclusions are wrong as well?

Not only are you way-off base, you're also an asshole.

I'm getting tired of this, and you've been warned before. Keep it going and you'll have a few days off of DS to better refine your arguements.While you're at it, make your arguements about the discussion, not the person. And while I'm all for backing up someone's idea, stop name calling out of the sheer joy of slinging mud.

[Yerameyahu]

Here's the key part: "and after having discussed with the GM what characters are and are not allowed". The GM's job was to make sure that character fit in the group and game in the first place.

[Starmage21]

I'm getting tired of this, and you've been warned before. Keep it going and you'll have a few days off of DS to better refine your arguements.While you're at it, make your arguements about the discussion, not the person. And while I'm all for backing up someone's idea, stop name calling out of the sheer joy of slinging mud.

*winces*

[fistandantilus4....]

While I'm here, I'd also like to say, if all that you have to say about the original poster's question is that nosferatu are unbalanced or the character is an issue because of 'X', please move on now. He asked for help with an issue. Going on over and over about how the character is a problem isn't what he's asking. He didn't tell you what kind of game he was in, he didn't tell you what the other players were. Help him fix the character up. If you'd like to discuss the problems beyond the rules mechanics of BP, do it in another thread.

Edit: This isn't directed at 'almost normal'. This is directed at another half a dozen posters.

[fistandantilus4....]

At this point you might as well get up and leave the game table. Being inflexible to the desires of your fellow players puts you* well into the area of the asshole or dickhead of the group. If it is going to escalate to the point of players attacking each other, instead of participating in a cooperative game, youre just as susceptible to the vamp's influence powers altering your world view. A certain amount of metagaming is acceptable, and the extent to which that the other players will go to accept a player's infected PC is entirely subjective to the group.

*you being the general sense of you, not a personal attack or comment at Tymeaus Jalynsfein or his attitudes.

To date, my own Nosferatu PC has fed exactly once. The group accepted a freaking wetwork job during a session I missed, so I figured what the hell.

So instead of TJ in particular, we're going with everyone that acts this way? If I'm infelxible on a particular issue at my table, especally as a GM, ten I'm an asshole?

As I said, if one was at our table, and I found out, he would be a Dead Infected. Case Closed. That is how the game world rolls in that regard.
The problem is that such a reaction tends to have OOC consequences. We avoid that whole pitfall by simply not allowing Infected at all.

This would be an example of what I was talking about. This discussion has gone a long ways from "Hey, I'm having a problem with this, what are some of the problems I may have with it?"

Something along the lines of "nosferatu are overpowered and overvalued" is fine. But "I don't allow this at my table, and I'd kill your character" is not helpful (loose quoting I know).

We've been seeing a lot of this sort of thing lately. If you don't have something to add to the thread that has to do with the topic and is helpful, don't add to it. If you want to debate a tangent, either wait until the original topic has been sufficiently addressed, or make your own threads. Don't be the guy that starts the derailing process. We're all getting tired of the train wreck that results.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Really? I guess we're just completely ignoring the infected-friendly governments/corporations at this point, yes?

The world is in something of a cultural swing towards accepting the infected, especially ghouls. They've been around for 20? years at this point, and people have had time to get used to the idea of them being around. That doesnt mean there arent bigoted people in the world, or even only a few. It just means that on the worst day, segregation was just abolished, and you are black.

I am... The character does not come form an Infected Friendly Government or Corp. He comes form normal humanity, who sees the Infected as a Plague to be eradicated. Why is that so hard to understand?

And no, the People are not accepting it... There are a few governments set up to cater to that particular idea. Big Difference. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: Apologies Fistandantalus4.0... Just saw your warning. I will cease and desist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

Apologies for the lenght of my name. I've been "meaning to get around to..." changing it for a few years now. It's too damn long, and really obnoxious to keep typing out all the time.

[almost normal]

To go back on topic and try to help out our beloved Krishach.

...any possible pitfalls and problems to avoid or prevent; either Nosferatu's in general, mystic adepts, or beast handlers, since it is a personal first for all three for me (never played a mage in 4th). I am aware certain animals can sense a lower essence in infected and instinctual don't like them. I have Relieve Allergy to treat the daylight blues. And I have a starting Intuition of 8, and Will of 7.

This is mostly for arc-type pitfalls, not a PC lab. Any thoughts?

Wards. You have the ability to produce very high strength wards. Given that *someone* is going to try to find you eventually, it's handy to ward your place of residence, if only to prolong spirit search powers.

If your GM is going to allow you to use Relieve Allergy against daylight, he's probably infected friendly. See if he'll let you use an Adept's quick healing powers to augment your regeneration ability.

Travel is going to be a pain in the ass. You can't rely on public and mass-transport safely. Look into alternative means. The levitate spell at low force and a squirrel suit with the parachuting skill can be a very fun and quick method of travel.

500BP tends to be on the high end scale of campaigns. See about 'converting' a few useful NPCs and making them like-minded contacts. Having your own personal thrall could add entertainment to the game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Apologies for the lenght of my name. I've been "meaning to get around to..." changing it for a few years now. It's too damn long, and really obnoxious to keep typing out all the time.

Nothing wrong with the name... Has a certain amount of nostalgia attached to it, in fact. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

Glad it's still appreciated. Those were the first books that actually got me interested in reading.

And here I go with my own tangenting...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Glad it's still appreciated. Those were the first books that actually got me interested in reading.

And here I go with my own tangenting...

Not my First Books, to be sure, but definitley very enjoyable...
I now return you to your regularly scheduled debate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sephiroth]

To go back on topic and try to help out our beloved Krishach.



Wards. You have the ability to produce very high strength wards. Given that *someone* is going to try to find you eventually, it's handy to ward your place of residence, if only to prolong spirit search powers.

Actually, almost normal is correct on this. With a temporary magic boost from Essence Drain, you can put up wards far stronger than would normally be within your capabilities. Huh. I was unaware of this little perk, thanks almost normal. *adds mental note in some deep corner of my brain*

Problems to prevent for nosferatus in general: letting your status as an Infected slip to the rest of your team will be opening up a can of wyrms that, while possible to deal with, might be better left closed. Nosferatus canonically tend to be decently skilled with disguises, so I would put some points into Disguise and also put a bit of PP into Facial Sculpt and other related adept powers. Nosferatus have a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 15,000 bounty on their heads in the UCAS, so you'll want to do your best to eliminate the temptation of turning you in from your teammates' minds. You can either do that the way I do, by keeping your PC's infection a secret from as many people as possible (this gets easier if you can find at least one non-bigoted ally on your team), or the way Neraph does, by being very and irreplaceably good at your character's role.

Also blackberry cats are amazing. Except they can do the same thing you can (influence people's minds innately). Be aware of that.

Tbh, I do feel that the psionic tradition part feels a bit jumbled together with the rest of the concept and doesn't jive very well with nosferatus thematically or canonically. With 500 BP, it should be possible to have a nosferatu mystic adept beastmaster character who is also a hermetic, like most other nosferatus. I don't think you have to worry about having high drain stats, though. I would put more of an emphasis on the adept side than on the magician side, and bust out the powercasting only after you've drained some essence and boosted your Magic for a day/night.


(also that squirrel suit idea is actually kind of cool) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[almost normal]

Actually, almost normal is correct on this. With a temporary magic boost from Essence Drain, you can put up wards far stronger than would normally be within your capabilities. Huh. I was unaware of this little perk, thanks almost normal. *adds mental note in some deep corner of my brain*

Just talk to your GM. After 8 hours I believe, your magic starts dropping back to nominal values. It's up to him whether you can feed during the creation of the ward, or if not, if the maximum value of the ward is calculated at the start of the creation, or it's end.

(The ward taking force X hours to create, and all that.)

[Sephiroth]

I think it's 12 hours per boost, which leaves plenty of time for creating a very potent ward (as long as you have some Nuke-It Burgers or something else to eat while you're working on it).

[almost normal]

You were right, 12 hours.

One more thing Krishach might want to have clarified is when exactly essence loss will take place.

This attribute boosts wears off after
12 hours, and half the Essence points used to fuel the boost are lost.

Arguments can be made for the payment to take place at either end. If it takes place when you decide to channel the essence into magic, well... You've got the ability to pump your magic into the triple digits given the proper preparations and uninterrupted time to feast. Now, I don't reccomend doing this before every run, but if you're on the Titanic and find yourself surrounded by frightened passengers, you might just be able to pull off a levitation spell to save the day. (And probably die from the resulting drain, but hey, can't win em all, and maybe that act saves your soul.)

[Cojuzei]

Good to see after the person with the golden text put their foot down, this topic is back to the actual topic...and not some flame fest about not liking nosferatu. All arguments aside, the rules are there. Plain and simple. Don't like it, don't play. If you're the GM, you have the say either way on what's allowed. Not the players. The GM. It's really as simple as that.

Wards are a good thing to keep in mind when playing anything with a manipulatable Essence, but they are immobile. The runs you and your buddies will be in won't be done at your house...at least I hope not. That'd get boring quick. My previous post should answer a number of your questions about how to be an effective part of the group, and combine both the information about wards and my previous post and you'll have the enemies running for the wyverns dens rather than face you themselves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's a solid character concept. Keep at it until you're happy with the results. Oh, and happy hunting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Manunancy]

One point to keep in mind (just as with any higly unusual / very high abilities characters) is that after a few games the GM may toss the towel and ask you to make another character because it's special abilities throw things out of balance and he can't challenge your character without making the rest of the party irrelevant (or dead).

Sort of happened to me (as a GM) once in a Stormbringer game. The party's sorcerer started playing with his newfound capacity to add immunities to armors - affter a single game we concluded 'nope, that's no fun to play being mr invulenrable to about everything, let's curb that down'.

[Irion]

@almost normal

,

And? The Infected are part of society, some less then others. Your analogy, 'corrections' (laughable as they may be) and thus conclusion, are all wrong. In the future, please refrain from misguided attempts to correct the posited notions of others when you've clearly got no idea what you're talking about.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And wrong again. Alright, one last try to teach you how to make an analogy.
First: You have to transfer the whole picture.
The Federation is only one territory in the whole StarTrek Universe. They are not even the most powerful Faction.
As a matter of fact there are several societys in SR. (Ares and every other AAA Crop, the different nations, some metaplanes )

This begs the question: What would the Federation be?
First idea would be the society in Seattle, since this is the basis of Shadowrun or maybe the Society in the UCAS. Or in Ares or maybe Sarder Krupp.
But you allready see, it is not really fitting. Because StarTrek focus only on the Federation or in other words the federation is the basis.

Now what is the basis in the SR? Right, it is the core book. You can play in Washington, you may play in Paris or in whatever city you would like. But you have to play with the core book. Like in StarTrek you have always the Federation on board.

So all the races part of the federation would be the playable races of the core books. There is no question about them, they fit anytime and everywhere. And if I for example play a run in Japan an oni would be fitting. As is for example Seven of Nine is fitting in Voyager. But it would not really fit in playing in the middle of Germany. Here an oger would be fitting. While those options would not fit in general in an other setting, you would just need to explain why they are there now. If you play in some regions in France/England/Germany even a pixie is possible and easy to explain.

The more "excotic" the race, the more explaining would be needed and the more likely the rest of the group won't go with it.

And thats how you build an analogy. Not like: I want to be right, but I do not have any argument. Lets use an analogy and just make things the same which aren't in order to show, that I am right. (Yes, I get it. Thats how most people use analogies.)

@Topic
Talk to the GM. Several of the things I have read here are really big red making most GMs sutting you down cold.
(Like Regeneration+quickhealing)
Before trying to abuse everything in the system talk to GM about the "every day stuff".
How do you handle your essence loss? How do you handle the need for blood? How do you handle your appearance? Whats able to identify you as a Nosferatu and what would be the security response?
If you run in europe or even near Essen, the big L would probably personally send some of his spirits. (The GM would be well in his options, considering the fluff)

[Critias]

C'mon, Irion. Fisty asked us to drop it. If I were you, I'd edit out the first 4/5ths of that post, and just leave that last bit (which is the part you actually admit is on-topic).

[almost normal]

It's okay Critias, his entire post is a failed attempt to rustle my jimmies. Because, you know, nothing makes

really big red making most GMs sutting you down cold

like communicating with your gm.

[ggodo]

Don't mind me, I just read the thread title as "Noseratu Breast Handler" and had to see that build.

[fistandantilus4....]

@almost normal

And wrong again. Alright, one last try to teach you how to make an analogy.

....

...
And thats how you build an analogy. Not like: I want to be right, but I do not have any argument. Lets use an analogy and just make things the same which aren't in order to show, that I am right. (Yes, I get it. Thats how most people use analogies.)

Let's talk about trolling, ...
....
That there over use of elipses is me editing myself out of about a paragraph of a rant that I would really like to rant but I thought the better of. It probably would have been better if you'd done the same.

Apparently with some people you have to talk a little longer to get the point across. Stop the damn flaming.
Irion has had his posting ability put on hold for two days. When we say stop, stop.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't mind me, I just read the thread title as "Noseratu Breast Handler" and had to see that build.

Heh... Yeah, that is also what I saw originally... Imagine my disappointment upon opening the Topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

I usually try to fix spelling and typing errors like that in the title when I see them. It's hard, as I'm so prone to them myself.

...
Prone to the errors that is , not ... the other thing. I'm going now.