More de-errataing, ...and this time they are getting creative Options

[Sengir]

JH's aversion to errata is nothing new, so nobody should be surprised to hear he doesn't like that attribute costs in karmagen were changed from Attribute*3 to Attribute*5. But instead of simply ignoring that change as in previous cases, we're in for an ingenious little gem:

http://forums.wolflair.com/showpost.php?p=...amp;postcount=1

JMH: Yes, the cost of attributes in the KarmaGen system should change from 3 times rating to 5 times rating. Here's how I do the math--going from 3 to 5 is an increase of 66.67 percent. You can spend up to half your 750 karma in KarmaGen on attributes (with the addition of the build points for metatype, but I don't think that affects this), meaning you can spend 375 on attributes. If we increase that by 66.67 percent, we get 625. We add that to the other half of the karma and we get 1,000 karma to start with. But we also should tweak the amount of karma you can spend on attributes. Instead of only being able to spend half on attributes, you should be able to spend 62.5 percent of your karma (plus the metatype adjustment) on attributes. Make sense?

Yup, Jason brings out the calculator with the expressed aim of getting back to the glorious days when mixing karmagen and BP-gen characters at one table was a sure recipe for disaster. Thanks a lot!

[Blade]

This is just ridiculous.

[TheOOB]

To be fair, the karma gen system is kind of ridiculous as a whole. Not adding in metatype costs when it's in the book about special racial types, no more free knowledge skill points, physical/mental attributes and special attributes from the same pool.

[Sengir]

Not adding in metatype costs when it's in the book about special racial types

The errata version is "metatype/race karma cost = BP cost" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But don't worry, the 250 extra karma are probably enough to offset that cost, too...

[phlapjack77]

This is just ridiculous.

I have to disagree, this is STUPIDLY ridiculous (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

From what I can follow of his "reasoning", because attributes will cost more, you should start with more Karma (and can spend 62.5% on attributes). This about right? I'm not really sure, because even after reading that several times, I'm still not quite sure what he's really saying...

[ravensmuse]

...which, if that's the right interpretation of what he's saying, goes against the stated intent of BP cost for attributes in the first place: make it easier to raise skills, harder to raise attributes, as a way to diversify characters.

To which I further state, bwuh?

[Aerospider]

It seems as though he's trying to undo any mechanical impact of the cost increase, which is fine if the only problem being fixed by th errata is that 3 does not look like 5.

Except even then there is collateral damage because he assumes all characters spend the maximum allowance on attributes. Suppose I only spend 240 under the x3 rule, leaving 510 for everything else. Under the x5 rule the same attribute ratings would cost me 400 karma. With the proposed overall increase I now have 600 karma to spend on everything else, none of which has risen in cost at all. For an all 3s human character the increase in karma for non-attribute spending goes up from 630 to 800 and 170 can buy a lot of skill points.

In short, by trying to maintain the cost of attributes relative to the overall spending power he's made everything else cheaper, thus undermining his own motivation.

[StealthSigma]

It seems as though he's trying to undo any mechanical impact of the cost increase, which is fine if the only problem being fixed by th errata is that 3 does not look like 5.

Except even then there is collateral damage because he assumes all characters spend the maximum allowance on attributes. Suppose I only spend 240 under the x3 rule, leaving 510 for everything else. Under the x5 rule the same attribute ratings would cost me 400 karma. With the proposed overall increase I now have 600 karma to spend on everything else, none of which has risen in cost at all. For an all 3s human character the increase in karma for non-attribute spending goes up from 630 to 800 and 170 can buy a lot of skill points.

In short, by trying to maintain the cost of attributes relative to the overall spending power he's made everything else cheaper, thus undermining his own motivation.

It's 215 karma for an all 3s human (you forgot Edge). So that leave 785 karma, assuming 100 spent on resources, leaving 685 karma for skills, contacts, and qualities. It's 22+2 karma for a single rating 4 skill with specialization which means you can raise 31 skills to rating 4 with specialization....

[Stahlseele]

Now if THAT ain't diverse i don't know what is . .

[StealthSigma]

Now if THAT ain't diverse i don't know what is . .

Well, there's 56 skills....

I also didn't consider going with Skill Groups to 3 then a single rank and specialization....

Using groups....
Combat: 226 Karma
Physical: 310 Karma
Social: 133 Karma
Technical: 424 Karma
Vehicle: 144 Karma
Total: 1237 Karma

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, there really are more than 56 Skills. Have a Cyber Logician with just over 300 Karma and exactly 82 Skills. With a list of more skills to buy. *Shrug*

[StealthSigma]

Well, there really are more than 56 Skills. Have a Cyber Logician with just over 300 Karma and exactly 82 Skills. With a list of more skills to buy. *Shrug*

I intentionally ignored Magic and Resonance (because we were talking a straight 3s human without those attributes) as well as ignored the Exotic Weapon/Vehicle skills which are about as open ended as you can get....

[All4BigGuns]

To be fair, the karma gen system is kind of ridiculous as a whole. Not adding in metatype costs when it's in the book about special racial types, no more free knowledge skill points, physical/mental attributes and special attributes from the same pool.

With these being the case on top of the increase to the cost of attributes, the increase in the amount of points available needed desperately to be done. For one, Awakened--especially human Awakened--were completely screwed unless they wanted to "dump stat" at least two stats and completely ignored knowledges since there would be no feasible way to really afford any and be decent at what they should be good at.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I intentionally ignored Magic and Resonance (because we were talking a straight 3s human without those attributes) as well as ignored the Exotic Weapon/Vehicle skills which are about as open ended as you can get....

Gotcha... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Of Course, the character I was talking about is neither a Magician nor Technomancer, and only has a few vehicle skills, and no exotic weapon skills, so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Gotcha... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Of Course, the character I was talking about is neither a Magician nor Technomancer, and only has a few vehicle skills, and no exotic weapon skills, so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What are you including that I didn't? Knowledge and Language skills?

[phlapjack77]

With these being the case on top of the increase to the cost of attributes, the increase in the amount of points available needed desperately to be done.

Nice try JH (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What are you including that I didn't? Knowledge and Language skills?

Yes... I always include Knowledge Skills and Language Skills. Though I guess that at many tables, these have absolutely no playability, so I understand if others don't really give them any attention.

Also... Artisan SKills are Broken into seperate Skills at our table. Not that I have more than 1 of them, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

Nice try JH (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Whuh? That's a heck of an assumption to make. I'd tried several times to make a decent character with the 750, and not a single one could come out anywhere near good functionality under the x5 attribute costs in comparison to a 400 BP. After I heard about the increase to 1000, I went in and tried again with that number. The character was functional but not overly good. Basically in order to make something grotesquely overpowered with the 1000 karma, you have to be intentionally breaking the system in an attempt to "prove" something--though it would serve nothing but "prove" that some outliers can exist.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Whuh? That's a heck of an assumption to make. I'd tried several times to make a decent character with the 750, and not a single one could come out anywhere near good functionality under the x5 attribute costs in comparison to a 400 BP. After I heard about the increase to 1000, I went in and tried again with that number. The character was functional but not overly good. Basically in order to make something grotesquely overpowered with the 1000 karma, you have to be intentionally breaking the system in an attempt to "prove" something--though it would serve nothing but "prove" that some outliers can exist.

Really? Wow. Mine blew the 400 BP Hacker right out of the water... He was simply awesome. NOTE: We do use a few Optional Rules though, to make Logic more important. Kind of one sided (what Hacker isn't) though. I like my characters to be more well rounded, I guess, which the 750 Karma Gen makes possible.

Every character I made with 750 Karma Gen (with the Errata) turned out better than they did in 400 BP Gen. However, My character design philosophy is likely different than yours is... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Example. My Unaugmented Mercenary at 750 Karma has right at 50 Skills... Give me an extra 250 Points to play with and he would be completly hell on wheels (and probably not unaugmented any more either). Of course, Most skills are from 1-2, with a few focused 3's and 4's. Nothing Higher.

[All4BigGuns]

Really? Wow. Mine blew the 400 BP Hacker right out of the water... He was simply awesome. NOTE: We do use a few Optional Rules though, to make Logic more important. Kind of one sided (what Hacker isn't) though. I like my characters to be more well rounded, I guess, which the 750 Karma Gen makes possible.

Every character I made with 750 Karma Gen (with the Errata) turned out better than they did in 400 BP Gen. However, My character design philosophy is likely different than yours is... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Example. My Unaugmented Mercenary at 750 Karma has right at 50 Skills... Give me an extra 250 Points to play with and he would be completly hell on wheels (and probably not unaugmented any more either). Of course, Most skills are from 1-2, with a few focused 3's and 4's. Nothing Higher.

"Well rounded" is one thing, but to be "well rounded" you need to be really good at some things and decent in several others. Most things at 1 or 2 is being able to half-arse a lot, but likely not succeed with much of it. Thus "well rounded" would be most at 3's and 4's with a couple 5's.

[apple]

It depends on the character. High attributes/high skills favor the 400 BP System (static costs, regardless of attribute 1 or 6), low attributes, low skills favor the Karma systems (skill 2 = 8 Karma, skill 6 = 44) Karma).

Personally I would prefer the Karma system with 1000 points (according to SR4A rules). What I simply *hate* is the complete messed up mixture of 400 BP, 750x3 and 750x5 system with long delayed errata and massive balance issues in either way.

SYL

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Well rounded" is one thing, but to be "well rounded" you need to be really good at some things and decent in several others. Most things at 1 or 2 is being able to half-arse a lot, but likely not succeed with much of it. Thus "well rounded" would be most at 3's and 4's with a couple 5's.

Well rounded is 8-10 Dice in most of your skills. With about 12 in your good ones. That is my design philosophy.
The Merc has 30+ Skills in the 8-10 range, with some in the 12 Range and the rest in the 5-8 range. THAT is well rounded. And this for a completely Unaugmented character. Not bad, if I say so myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Like I said, We likely have very different design philosophies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[phlapjack77]

Whuh? That's a heck of an assumption to make. I'd tried several times to make a decent character with the 750, and not a single one could come out anywhere near good functionality under the x5 attribute costs in comparison to a 400 BP. After I heard about the increase to 1000, I went in and tried again with that number. The character was functional but not overly good. Basically in order to make something grotesquely overpowered with the 1000 karma, you have to be intentionally breaking the system in an attempt to "prove" something--though it would serve nothing but "prove" that some outliers can exist.

Chill man, I'm only joking...although, I begin to think you doth protest too much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also, wow! 1000 karma...and you only got a "functional but not overly good" character ?!? I think your calcs might be wrong somewhere, because that's just crazy talk...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Chill man, I'm only joking...although, I begin to think you doth protest too much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also, wow! 1000 karma...and you only got a "functional but not overly good" character ?!? I think your calcs might be wrong somewhere, because that's just crazy talk...

Indeed... 1000 Karma is a HELL of a lot of points.

[Sengir]

With these being the case on top of the increase to the cost of attributes

And why do you think attribute costs went from x3 to x5? Hint, it's not because karmagen and BPs were perfectly balanced and somebody wanted to make karmagen inferior...