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[Chance359]

SR5 priorties for skills

A 46/10
B 36/5
C 28/2
D 22/0
E 18/0

Skills groups can only be purchased with the second number (10,5,2,0,0). I would have rather seen an option where only a set number of points can be spent on groups out of the total skill points, it would avoid characters who have to purchase all skills from a group individually, ie the street sam with automatics, longarms, and pistols all at different levels out of the box.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

SR5 priorties for skills

A 46/10
B 36/5
C 28/2
D 22/0
E 18/0

Skills groups can only be purchased with the second number (10,5,2,0,0). I would have rather seen an option where only a set number of points can be spent on groups out of the total skill points, it would avoid characters who have to purchase all skills from a group individually, ie the street sam with automatics, longarms, and pistols all at different levels out of the box.

Have any skill groups been removed from the SR 4 list of skill groups? Have any been added?

What about active skills?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Chance359]

*does quick cross check*

skill groups for SR5
Acting (con, impersonation, performance)
Athletics ( gymnastics, running, swimming)
biotech (same as sr4
close combat (same as sr4
conjuring (same as sr4
cracking (same as sr4
electronics ( computer, hardware, software)
enchanting (alchemy, artificing, disenchanting
firearms (same as SR4
Influence ( Etiquette, leadership, negotiations)
Engeineering (Same as the mechanic groups form SR4
Outdoors ( same as Sr4
Sorcery ( same as Sr4
Stealth (disguise, palming, sneaking)
tasking (same as Sr4

[Shemhazai]

I quite unhappy about this. This makes skill groups at chargen nearly impossible, if I'm interpreting it correctly. I could be altogether wrong, of course, as I haven't seen the full chargen rules.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

*does quick cross check*

skill groups for SR5
Acting (con, impersonation, performance)
Athletics ( gymnastics, running, swimming)
biotech (same as sr4
close combat (same as sr4
conjuring (same as sr4
cracking (same as sr4
electronics ( computer, hardware, software)
enchanting (alchemy, artificing, disenchanting
firearms (same as SR4
Influence ( Etiquette, leadership, negotiations)
Engeineering (Same as the mechanic groups form SR4
Outdoors ( same as Sr4
Sorcery ( same as Sr4
Stealth (disguise, palming, sneaking)
tasking (same as Sr4

Thanks! That was very, very generous of you to check. At the risk of taking advantage of that generousity... Were any Skill groups in SR 4 specifically not carried over into SR5? Or any individual skills dropped?

Or, based on the above, should I be able to accurately recreate a list of skills/skillgroups in SR5? Thanks!

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Bull]

DOdge is gone. Data Search got folded into Computers. Infiltration and Shadowing got recombined into Sneaking. I think one or two other skills got grouped up with like-skills to simplify things.

All Skill Groups have only 3 skills per group, instead of a mix of 3 & 4, to even out the "value" of skill groups (WIth the exception of Engineering (Mechanics), which retains the 4 Vehicle Build/Repair skills).

Otherwise largely the same.

[Slacker]

Full List of Individual Skills
Agility Based
Archery, Automatics, Blades, Clubs, Escape Artist, Exotic Melee Weapon (Specific), Exotic Ranged Weapon (Specific), Gunnery, Gymnastics, Heavy Weapons, Herding, Locksmith, Longarms, Palming, Pistols, Sneaking, Throwing Weapons, Unarmed Combat

Body Based
Diving, Free-Fall

Reaction Based
Pilot Aerospace, Pilot Aircraft, Pilot Exotic Vehicle (Specific), Pilot Ground Craft, Pilot Walker, Pilot Watercraft

Strength Based
Running, Swimming

Charisma Based
Animal Handling, Con, Etiquette, Impersonation, Instruction, Intimidation, Leadership, Negotiation, Performance

Intuition Based
Artisan, Assensing, Disguise (includes makeup and enhancement), Interests Knowledge, Language, Navigation, Perception, Street Knowledge, Tracking

Logic Based
Academic Knowledge, Aeronautics Mechanic, Arcana, Armorer, Automotive Mechanic, Biotechnology, Chemistry, Computer, Cybertechnology, Cybercombat, Demolitions, Electronic Warfare, First Aid, Forgery, Industrial Mechanic, Hacking, Hardware, Medicine, Nautical Mechanic, Professional Knowledge, Software

Willpower Based
Astral Combat, Survival

Magic Based
Alchemy, Artificing, Banishing, Binding, Counterspelling, Disenchanting, Ritual Spellcasting, Spellcasting, Summoning

Resonance Based
Compiling, Decompiling, Registering

[Sendaz]

DOdge is gone. Data Search got folded into Computers. Infiltration and Shadowing got recombined into Sneaking. I think one or two other skills got grouped up with like-skills to simplify things.

All Skill Groups have only 3 skills per group, instead of a mix of 3 & 4, to even out the "value" of skill groups (WIth the exception of Engineering (Mechanics), which retains the 4 Vehicle Build/Repair skills).

Otherwise largely the same.

With better grouping can the skill in a group be used as a default at reduced value or is it still Attribute -1?

[Bull]

With better grouping can the skill in a group be used as a default at reduced value or is it still Attribute -1?

Still Att -1.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

w00t!

Freaking Outstanding. Thank you, all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Makki]

Infiltration and Shadowing got recombined into Sneaking.

Great, another use for agility. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Mäx]

Herding

What does this skill do?
rest of them where quite easy to figure out, but this one has me scratching my head.

[Sendaz]

What does this skill do?
rest of them where quite easy to figure out, but this one has me scratching my head.

That's a good question.

Herding in the farm sense is to control/guide a group of animals to where you want them to go, say from one field to another or to load them into transport. Often using animal companions to assist, like sheep or cattle dogs

If it's not for farm use then no clue.

[Mäx]

That's a good question.

Herding in the farm sense is to control/guide a group of animals to where you want them to go, say from one field to another or to load them into transport. Often using animal companions to assist, like sheep or cattle dogs

If it's not for farm use then no clue.

Yeah i kinda assumed its not that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Sendaz]

Yeah i kinda assumed its not that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Actually it might be though.. they have Animal Handling listed as well.

These may be skills listed for people wanting to raise/train animals like security forces working with their hellhounds or such often have to bond with them early.

Biodrones also run to mind.

[DireRadiant]

Skills groups can only be purchased with the second number (10,5,2,0,0).

You can also use the 25 Karma to bump a skill group up.

[Sendaz]

And don't forget to put some points in the STILL Group (manufacture: Moonshine, Beer & Rum) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

DOdge is gone. Data Search got folded into Computers. Infiltration and Shadowing got recombined into Sneaking. I think one or two other skills got grouped up with like-skills to simplify things.

All Skill Groups have only 3 skills per group, instead of a mix of 3 & 4, to even out the "value" of skill groups (WIth the exception of Engineering (Mechanics), which retains the 4 Vehicle Build/Repair skills).

Otherwise largely the same.

Skill groups still have a uneven value.(and cost way too much much as wel). Some skill gourps contain less useful skills and other skill gorups are so narrowly focussed that one skill in the group covers 90% of the funciton of the rest of the skills.(firearms being the main example)

[Tanegar]

DOdge is gone. Data Search got folded into Computers. Infiltration and Shadowing got recombined into Sneaking. I think one or two other skills got grouped up with like-skills to simplify things.

All Skill Groups have only 3 skills per group, instead of a mix of 3 & 4, to even out the "value" of skill groups (WIth the exception of Engineering (Mechanics), which retains the 4 Vehicle Build/Repair skills).

Otherwise largely the same.

Dodge is gone? So how does Full Defense work in SR5?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Dodge is gone? So how does Full Defense work in SR5?

Well gymnastics is still aorund for I guess dodge actions, but I think in the preview full defense added your willpower to the dodge pool for the entire conbat turn.

[Nath]

You can spend 5 initiative points to roll Reaction+Gymnastics against a single attack, or spend 10 initiative points to roll Reaction+Willpower against all incoming attacks during the turn.

[Mäx]

Actually it might be though.. they have Animal Handling listed as well.

These may be skills listed for people wanting to raise/train animals like security forces working with their hellhounds or such often have to bond with them early.

Some one in the official forums errata thread posted that herding is infact a specialization of animal handling and not a separate skill.
So you where right about what it's for and i was kinda right in thinking that the skill can't be it(as its not infact a new skill) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Sunshine]

Is Climbing gone or got folded into any other skill (Gymnastics, maybe)?

love,
Sunshine

[Shinobi Killfist]

Is Climbing gone or got folded into any other skill (Gymnastics, maybe)?

love,
Sunshine

Gid I hate the climbing skill. Don't get me wrong scaling a wall, a mountain etc it makes sense for a skill but the difficulties in pretty much every game I have seen have been absurd for basic climbing tasks. It is like average people will have a 25% chance of failing to climb a ladder and a decent chance of falling off it. A lot more climbing tests shold be automatic.

[Slacker]

Is Climbing gone or got folded into any other skill (Gymnastics, maybe)?

love,
Sunshine

Yes, Climbing is now a specialization of Gymnastics instead of a separate skill.

[Falconer]

DOdge is gone. Data Search got folded into Computers. Infiltration and Shadowing got recombined into Sneaking. I think one or two other skills got grouped up with like-skills to simplify things.

All Skill Groups have only 3 skills per group, instead of a mix of 3 & 4, to even out the "value" of skill groups (WIth the exception of Engineering (Mechanics), which retains the 4 Vehicle Build/Repair skills).

Otherwise largely the same.

You keep trying to spin this Bull.. and it's not working for me. The only thing I can half get behind is combining some things like shadowing/infiltration... and even then i'm not 100% as there's a huge difference between the two. The intuition link for shadowing made a lot more sense than agility would if that link was broken (or using something such as use agility for these purposes of the skill but use intuition or logic for these).


Sounds like you've successfully made skill groups an even a worse deal than they were in SR4 then.

Skills only ever come into play for skill + ATTRIBUTE. ATTRIBUTES set the limits (even worse idea! loved the idea of equipment sets limits instead of dice... absolutely hate the concept that attributes also set your limits!).

I would have much rather seen skill groups with 4 meaningful skills each then. Especially since with priority... you need to spend a lot of priority on skills to get more than say 2 points worth of them at priority C.


Gymnastics is the skill which should have disappeared not dodge. Gymnastics got cheesed to death with cyber/bio. Also there was a link with dodge being the one stop shop for riggers (who could use dodge skill on full defense... and astral mages where their dodge skill was the only other skill besides 'astral combat' which could defend against astral attackers and astral attackers got a whole lot nastier in SR5!!!).

Only 3 skills per group was also a step in the wrong direction. All of them should have been kept or increased to 4 per group to make them worthwhile investments. (such as adding heavy weapons to 'firearms'). I'm all for combining a handful of skills. But at 10x new rank in karma for a skill group vs 10x new rank in attribute... there is no contest... you buy up the attribute even if it is slightly more expensive to raise it slightly higher than the skill.

If I had a mage and 50 karma... I was far better raising magic from 9->10 than I was raising sorcery and conjuring groups for 25 each to 5 each... there was no contest. Everything I've seen in this thread has just made this even worse... (as now there is a 3rd magical skill group for enchanters). Meaning for pretty much all purposes you want high attribute low skill... (to avoid defaulting, nothing more).

There is nothing in the rules limiting extended tests to your rank in the skill for example... which would make having more than 1 rank and a ton of logic boosters quite a bit more relevant to mechanics/riggers. Instead boosting logic increases limits. Increases the dice pool (and extended tests are based off the size of the dice pool if the -1 per test rule is still in effect).


Really can anyone here make a cogent argument why it takes as much to raise an inferior (to SR4) skill group as opposed to raising the link attribute at the x10 karma cost?

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

You keep trying to spin this Bull.. and it's not working for me.

...This just flew out of left field. Where's the spin. I asked a question. Bull gave a factual response.

It's stupid, unnecessarily hostile rants like that that remove the incentive for content contributors to answer questions.

Sheesh!

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[cndblank]

...This just flew out of left field. Where's the spin. I asked a question. Bull gave a factual response.

It's stupid, unnecessarily hostile rants like that that remove the incentive for content contributors to answer questions.

Sheesh!

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Agreed!

Thanks for the info.

[cndblank]

I've would have liked to see specializations on skill groups.

That is a PC can pick one skill out of a skill group and a standard specialization.

So Firearms 5 (SMG). It is fast, simple, takes up very little room on the character sheet.

A PC can then still have a favorite weapon while remaining well rounded with all firearms.
The balance is that he can only have one specialization for the skill group instead of one specialization per skill.

[cndblank]

It would be nice if you could spend a skill group point to pick up all the skills then spend skill points to boost some of the skills higher.
Like Electronics 1, Hardware 5 for 1 skill group point and 4 skill points.

It would be nice at character creation if you could spend 2.5 skill points to get a skill group instead.
On the flip side skill groups don't tell you that much about the character.

Maybe in the companion.

[Mäx]

It would be nice if you could spend a skill group point to pick up all the skills then spend skill points to boost some of the skills higher.

I don't have the book, so can't say whether or not this is in the rules, but i would expect most GM:s to allow breaking of skill groups in chargen.
Both so that you can raise some skills higher then the rest and so that you can get specialization for the skills.

[Epicedion]

I don't have the book, so can't say whether or not this is in the rules, but i would expect most GM:s to allow breaking of skill groups in chargen.
Both so that you can raise some skills higher then the rest and so that you can get specialization for the skills.

Someone said earlier that skill groups are more explicitly fluid and can be broken and reformed almost at will.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

I don't have the book, so can't say whether or not this is in the rules, but i would expect most GM:s to allow breaking of skill groups in chargen.
Both so that you can raise some skills higher then the rest and so that you can get specialization for the skills.

For some reason I thought that you couldn't split them during the initial raises (drawn from your 'Skills' priority), but they could be split during the karma spending element of Chargen.

I.E, You can't raise a skillgroup to 3 with Skillgroup points, then add skill points on top of that to bump up the skills contained in that group farther with initial skill points. You can, however, break that group when you're spending your 25 ChargenKarma.

Take the above with a grain of salt, however, as I'm operating on memory of knowledge dispersed in threads and am not an actual SR 5 book owner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

I am not a medic but may play one on SR (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Falconer]

No, you forget Bull has a profit motive in this. As one of the writers he gets paid for his work. He's a professional, far more professional than many of the writers I might add. In fact, he's one of the better posters I find, he does a great job fronting for the company even back to when he was one of the dumpshock admins here.


I voiced 'new' opinions. Things I haven't seen posted anywhere on a SR5 thread. Relevant to the topic. You fail to take constructive criticism for what it is.

I'm not nor never will be a 'cheerleader' for the authors. I cannot see the current skill group system as an improvement from the old. A little bit of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism goes a long way towards improving the quality of future work.


As far as allowing a specialization within the skill group... it kind of misses the point. The point is that the skills within the group get a training discount provided they aren't specialized/uneven. Given how much weaker groups are now... it might be worthwhile. But I'd much rather see *worthwhile* skill groups in the first place! Which is exactly what was removed!


I'm sorry based on the 'new' information of what comprises the skill groups and skill changes it has lowered my opinion of the new game, not raised it.

[Daedelus]

Given how much weaker groups are now... it might be worthwhile. But I'd much rather see *worthwhile* skill groups in the first place! Which is exactly what was removed!
I'm sorry based on the 'new' information of what comprises the skill groups and skill changes it has lowered my opinion of the new game, not raised it.

What bar did you use to make this assessment? This is not a criticism. I want to assess your process so I can determine if it meets my personal standards or If I need to do the work myself.

[cndblank]

I would expect a good writer to stand behind his work, but remember that each writer is only working on one part of the project.
And they have to follow the decisions made by the Design Lead.

I think you and I have different ideas on what constructive criticism looks like.

Especially when someone is taking the time to answer our questions.
Bull has all of 4 lines of text and is almost purely providing yes or no clarification to our questions.

Bull: "DOdge is gone. Data Search got folded into Computers. Infiltration and Shadowing got recombined into Sneaking. I think one or two other skills got grouped up with like-skills to simplify things.

All Skill Groups have only 3 skills per group, instead of a mix of 3 & 4, to even out the "value" of skill groups (WIth the exception of Engineering (Mechanics), which retains the 4 Vehicle Build/Repair skills).

Otherwise largely the same."

Bull: "Still Att -1."

Not much room for spin.

I feel just as strongly about a few of the changes, but you are shooting the messenger.

[Falconer]

Okay look at SR4... typically a face would take the social skill group... then either take the disguise skill solo.. or for more utility get the entire stealth group.

So for your typical A-team style 'face/infiltrator' you typically had two important skill groups... influence covering all the critical social talking skills. Etiquette, negotian, & con (with the niche skill leadership as a bonus). Then stealth covering 'disguise' and 'shadowing'... with infiltration & palming being secondary skills for sneaking around once you've already talked your way in. Or doubling with some combat utility... sneaking and ambushing things using infiltration. The last big social skill 'intimidation' was never part of the groups.


Now in order to do the same thing... the face will most likely completely ignore the 'influence group' as he doesn't get 3 worthwhile skills in it. He'll need etiquette and negotiation as always. However the stealth group is now smaller merely because infiltration/shadowing have been combined. Now you have the Acting group.

So to do the same thing you could before in terms of skills... you now need two skill groups and two skills... (or 3 skill groups if you include the niche skill leadership). Those extra skills in the past would often be something like a combat skill rounding out the character. (so the hacker needs things to do using his specialty in combat... faces now need to spend even more just to be a face... not always have things to do in combat... and have less points available to pick up non-face activities).




In a nutshell the skill groups have been nerfed in two ways in the push to make everything 'equal' and all skill groups have 3 skills:
1. combining two skills inside the group into one... many people already ignored the stealth group in favor of infiltration only... that got a big buff as now infiltration (an already strong skill) got far stronger with the addition of the shadowing portfolio. Unless both other skills in the group are solid... there is less reason to take the one skill and ignore the group.

2. Moving what was a key skill to a new group and destroying the old groups value. This is demonstrated with the case of Con gonig from Influence -> Acting. The influence group which is left is noticably weaker with questionable skills making the group as a whole less appealing.

Two more ways which are a bit less obvious as they're much more in the crunch mechanics...0
3. Priority.... A 10 skill groups,, B. 5 skill groups... C 2 IIRC... are weaker skill groups a good selling point for simply investing more into attributes to start with?!

If you didn't get the skill groups in the first place with priority then... you're left with karma expenditure.
4. Advancement costs... Are you seriously telling me the new smaller skill groups are worth 5x rank when all they do is add dice to a few tests and nothing else? compare that to 5x rank for an attribute which does that and more.


At the end of the day I have a hard time seeing most people not simply dump 10 karma to get the group learned at rank 1 to get trained use of the skill. Then ignoring it afterwards or only advancing 1 skill in the group from that point on.

That said... one big question is did double cost for the first rank in a skill/skill group go away? Even that is double edged though... as 1 rank in skill/whatever paired with bigger attribute worked the best in SR4 generally. Lower cost there means more karma to raise attributes as opposed to buy more skill.

[cndblank]

The only thing I can half get behind is combining some things like shadowing/infiltration... and even then i'm not 100% as there's a huge difference between the two. The intuition link for shadowing made a lot more sense than agility would if that link was broken (or using something such as use agility for these purposes of the skill but use intuition or logic for these).

You make a good point on the Intuition for shadowing, but for all we know to shadow someone you use Sneak plus Intuition.
And if we don't, then as the GM you can make it so.

[Daedelus]

Thank You Falconer. Your assessment has prompted me to add my own assessment on this aspect of the game once I get the book. I personally think your criteria are flawed because they compare SR4 to SR5, and the systems are sufficiently different to make that comparison mathematically suspect. However it does raise sufficient concern to warrant a SR5 to SR5 analysis once it is released. thank You for explaining your process.

[cndblank]

Personally I like the standardization of the number of skills in a Skill group.

Dodge and Gymnastics were always a problem even if it was humorous when an NPC had a dodge skill listed but their higher athletic skill group meant that they actually had a higher Gymnastic skill.

This also makes me feel better about the number of skills provided at Character creation.
More combined skills mean the skill point totals will go further.

Also not having to spend extra karma to learn a new skill helps too.

You can afford to spend all your priority skill points are getting good at your primary skills and then spend 10 karma and pick up 5 skills at rating 1.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Really can anyone here make a cogent argument why it takes as much to raise an inferior (to SR4) skill group as opposed to raising the link attribute at the x10 karma cost?

No. There isn't one. There is no logical reason for skill groups to be levelx5 when attributes do that to multiple gorups and more. It was blazingly obvous in SR4 and even more obvious in 5e. When things this obvious get missed it makes me wonder about the rest of the system.

[cndblank]

No. There isn't one. There is no logical reason for skill groups to be levelx5 when attributes do that to multiple gorups and more. It was blazingly obvous in SR4 and even more obvious in 5e. When things this obvious get missed it makes me wonder about the rest of the system.

I can agree, but it is also perfectly reasonable that a non specialist Shadowrunner is going to be in top physical form.

They are like professional athletes where the physical conditioning of their bodies is necessary for the job.
And they have even more skin in the game than a professional athlete because the stakes are life or death.

So it is just natural the prime runners stats most used in their field of expertise will be very high.
I expect a street samurai will have a high Agility and Reaction. Likely a high Strength.
Face is going to have near max Charisma.
A Decker will (at least in 5th) have a high Logic.

And stats will eventually max out while skills can go to rating 12.

[Mäx]

Personally I like the standardization of the number of skills in a Skill group.

That is always good, it's just very annoying that they standardized all to the level of bad skill groups instead of making all of them good for their value.

[cndblank]

Coming from the nightmare that was running the tail end of 3rd edition with all the different rules mechanisms, I admit that I'm prone to like systems that use the same mechanics through out.

So far it looks like SR5 is taking one of the best features of SR4 and refining it.

[Tanegar]

On that note, does SR5 do away with Matrix rolls being Skill + Program instead of Attribute + Skill? I've always used that optional rule from Unwired, but it would be nice to see it made RAW.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I can agree, but it is also perfectly reasonable that a non specialist Shadowrunner is going to be in top physical form.

They are like professional athletes where the physical conditioning of their bodies is necessary for the job.
And they have even more skin in the game than a professional athlete because the stakes are life or death.

So it is just natural the prime runners stats most used in their field of expertise will be very high.
I expect a street samurai will have a high Agility and Reaction. Likely a high Strength.
Face is going to have near max Charisma.
A Decker will (at least in 5th) have a high Logic.

And stats will eventually max out while skills can go to rating 12.

I have never viewed shadowrunners as peak human. Athletic sure, but not peak human.

[GiraffeShaman]

On that note, does SR5 do away with Matrix rolls being Skill + Program instead of Attribute + Skill? I've always used that optional rule from Unwired, but it would be nice to see it made RAW.

Yes. It's Attribute + Skill now.

Also, it's now vital that a Face get Leadership, as some of their core abilities are now tied to it.

[cndblank]

I have never viewed shadowrunners as peak human. Athletic sure, but not peak human.

But I said primer runners.
Best of the best.
And a few runners become prime runner.

I wouldn't expect a lot of the Prime runner to be Olympic medal caliber (Human maximum (a seven stat for a human)) but I would expect most of them to be in the top 5% for their field of expertise.
Not a stretch to say a human primer runner would have a five or a six in his or her top most used stats.

So it is natural for a runner that just hit the big time to continue to improve.
Even on the physical side, you can see a successful Runner having more time to train and better resources.
Certainly I think it perfectly natural for Intuition and Willpower to improve as the runner gets more experience.

And a case can be made that an experience Veteran runner might be able to "Do more with what he had" while the bullet were flying, then a young kid with better reflexes and less field experience.\

I don't disagree that stats may be too good a buy right now, but I don't see it as a major problem.
Stats do max out and skills now have a while lot of room to grow.

[RHat]

2. Moving what was a key skill to a new group and destroying the old groups value. This is demonstrated with the case of Con gonig from Influence -> Acting. The influence group which is left is noticably weaker with questionable skills making the group as a whole less appealing.

Etiquette - Pretty imporatnt for a Face, really, and typicially the route people go if only picking up one social skill. Valuable.

Negotiation - Do I really have to explain why this one is good? Valuable.

Leadership - You clearly haven't seen the new Leadership rules; it got awesome. Valuable.

Part of what they seem to have done is increase the value of the less valuable skills - notably, they've also increased the number of skills the Face needs to carry as part of an apparent push to make each role require somewhat similar chargen investment.

I do think that they should have altered the comparative costs of skill groups and attributes (something like leaving groups at x5 and putting attributes at x7, for example) and changed the base Karma rate accordingly, but keep in mind that there are times where you might want to go for the group imprrovement over the attribute improvement - any time that Group Rating < Attribute rating, for example, you might be better off. Sure, you could use the extra Karma to get the boost to more things, but what if you need to use that Karma for something else yet?

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Leadership - You clearly haven't seen the new Leadership rules; it got awesome. Valuable.

How do the new Leadership rules work, RHat?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

How do the new Leadership rules work, RHat?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

And does it get a wireless bonus? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[RHat]

Source: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?top...12554#msg212554

The Leadership skill is about coaxing, convincing, threatening, or challenging your subordinates, or getting people to accept you as a superior. If you lead people who accept you as their (lone) superior, even temporarily, you can take a Complex Action to make a simple Leadership + Charisma [Social] Test. How this helps depends on what you choose to do.

Command: The target Resists with a Leadership + Willpower [Mental] test (With Social Modifiers, p. 140). For every net hit you get, the target accepts you as their leader for 1 Combat Turn. This doesn't work if you've failed on this target before.
Direct: Your hits act as a Teamwork Test for one subordinate's skill or composure test that they perform on or before their next Action Phase.
Inspire: Your Hits act as teamwork test for subordinates' surprise test for rest of the combat turn.
Rally: Your subordinates add 1 to their Initiative Score for every 2 hits you get.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Wow... Interesting!

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[RHat]

Especially since Rally can mean the difference between getting an extra pass or not, or having to sacrifice a pass to use those "initiative -5" actions or not.

[DireRadiant]

You can make a Leadership Face and your team will love you.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

How does a player determine the number of knowledge skills that they begin play with in SR 5?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Shemhazai]

The Leadership skill is about coaxing, convincing, threatening, or challenging your subordinates, or getting people to accept you as a superior. If you lead people who accept you as their (lone) superior, even temporarily, you can take a Complex Action to make a simple Leadership + Charisma [Social] Test. How this helps depends on what you choose to do.

Command: The target Resists with a Leadership + Willpower [Mental] test (With Social Modifiers, p. 140). For every net hit you get, the target accepts you as their leader for 1 Combat Turn.
This doesn't work if you've failed on this target before.
Direct: Your hits act as a Teamwork Test for one subordinate's skill or composure test that they perform on or before their next Action Phase.
Inspire: Your Hits act as teamwork test for subordinates' surprise test for rest of the combat turn.
Rally: Your subordinates add 1 to their Initiative Score for every 2 hits you get.

So first you target one (willing?) target with a complex action for x number of leadership Combat Turns (hits or net hits?). If this has (ever?) failed before on a target, it doesn't work. Then during those turns you can help them with the other three actions by using a complex action and another Leadership + Charisma [Mental] Opposed Test. Am I getting that right?

So the leader can use their complex actions to give minor buffs. This sounds like a great addition for dedicated faces who aren't the best at hacking, fighting or slinging spells. So far it seems a little ambiguous on how it works, unless they've clarified it in another section.

[RHat]

So first you target one (willing?) target with a complex action for x number of leadership Combat Turns (hits or net hits?). If this has (ever?) failed before on a target, it doesn't work. Then during those turns you can help them with the other three actions by using a complex action and another Leadership + Charisma [Mental] Opposed Test. Am I getting that right?

So the leader can use their complex actions to give minor buffs. This sounds like a great addition for dedicated faces who aren't the best at hacking, fighting or slinging spells. So far it seems a little ambiguous on how it works, unless they've clarified it in another section.

My reading is that Command FORCES someone to accept you as their leader - without Command, they may still voluntarily do so. With Leadership 4+ and Charisma 4+, you'd have to be pretty foolish not to listen to the guy (assuming he's on your side anyways).

[Sendaz]

My reading is that Command FORCES someone to accept you as their leader - without Command, they may still voluntarily do so. With Leadership 4+ and Charisma 4+, you'd have to be pretty foolish not to listen to the guy (assuming he's on your side anyways).

Must be some limits as to who it can be applied to, I can not see one being able to command a Red Samurai to accept you as their leader for even a second, unless you have previously fooled them into thinking you are at least on their side (like a visiting VIP) and are just taking charge in a hostile situation.


Rally: Your subordinates add 1 to their Initiative Score for every 2 hits you get.

So will this work with other Initiative enhancing methods, even if said methods explicitly say they don't work with other Init boosters?

Personally I would lean toward a yes in this case as it is not really your own reflexes being enhanced but rather you are working in a more coordinated/efficient manner, but again better to be ask now.

[phlapjack77]

So first you target one (willing?) target with a complex action for x number of leadership Combat Turns (hits or net hits?). If this has (ever?) failed before on a target, it doesn't work. Then during those turns you can help them with the other three actions by using a complex action and another Leadership + Charisma [Mental] Opposed Test. Am I getting that right?

So the leader can use their complex actions to give minor buffs. This sounds like a great addition for dedicated faces who aren't the best at hacking, fighting or slinging spells. So far it seems a little ambiguous on how it works, unless they've clarified it in another section.

This sounds an awful lot like MMO "buffer" abilities for the face. I'm not so sure I like how this leadership thing looks at first glance. The skill description reads like it's something from D&D4. Which might be fine for a game like D&D, but this kind of ability doesn't fit into a game like SR (imo).

[RHat]

This sounds an awful like like MMO "buffer" abilities for the face. I'm not so sure I like how this leadership thing looks at first glance. The skill description reads like it's something from D&D4. Which might be fine for a game like D&D, but this kind of ability doesn't fit into a game like SR (imo).

Eh. An effective leader WILL have an effect on the performance of the people he leads,

[Sendaz]

Eh. An effective leader WILL have an effect on the performance of the people he leads,

Again it comes down to coordinating efforts.

Add in a good tacnet or similar and that leadership skill should have some good synergy from it.

[RHat]

Again it comes down to coordinating efforts.

There is that, certainly, but that it is limited to that? Not a proposition I think I could agree with.

[Sendaz]

There is that, certainly, but that it is limited to that? Not a proposition I think I could agree with.

there may be something else, faith in leader and motivation obviously, but that is treading in a gray area when you want to put rules to it without crossing into quasi-magical effects.

In a sense the face is almost acting like an adept if you go too far out. So the bonuses can not be too big or there will be questions as to how he is getting them....

[RHat]

there may be something else, faith in leader and motivation obviously, but that is treading in a gray area when you want to put rules to it without crossing into quasi-magical effects.

In a sense the face is almost acting like an adept if you go too far out. So the bonuses can not be too big or there will be questions as to how he is getting them....

Psychological impact - nothing quasi-magical involved. Helping people push just that little bit harder, and such. Or from another angle... Where's the far more substantial Initiative boost from Edge come from?

[Falconer]

Toss me in the not impressed category. This smacks of the intution 1/logic 1 Elan (of Order of the Stick) using inspire competence bard abilities.... *sings a bard song to make everyone sneak better!*

Though the point you're missing is the applicable social modifiers... those things tons of people kept forgetting.

Now look at the applicable social modifiers on page 140 as well.



But in any case... pursuant to the original question...
That means the infiltrator/face type now needs 3 skill groups if hypothetically leadership isn't the dump skill it's typically been. Acting, Stealth, and Influence. That's a lot of skills leaving little room for marginal combat ability... perception... etc.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Must be some limits as to who it can be applied to, I can not see one being able to command a Red Samurai to accept you as their leader for even a second, unless you have previously fooled them into thinking you are at least on their side (like a visiting VIP) and are just taking charge in a hostile situation.


Rally: Your subordinates add 1 to their Initiative Score for every 2 hits you get.

So will this work with other Initiative enhancing methods, even if said methods explicitly say they don't work with other Init boosters?

Personally I would lean toward a yes in this case as it is not really your own reflexes being enhanced but rather you are working in a more coordinated/efficient manner, but again better to be ask now.

Yeah I assume that is what is meant by the if you lead people who accept you as a leader part. It makes no sense to be a dusty team of shadowrunners and then command some people who were just shooting at you to stop and open thr door for you. Without them at least accepting you you can't make any leadership tests even the base command test.

"If you lead people who accept you as their (lone) superior, even temporarily, you can take a Complex Action to make a simple Leadership + Charisma [Social] Test. How this helps depends on what you choose to do."
And then one of the options is
Command: The target Resists with a Leadership + Willpower [Mental] test (With Social Modifiers, p. 140). For every net hit you get, the target accepts you as their leader for 1 Combat Turn.

So yeah there has to be some reaosn they see you as a superior.

I don't really have an issue with the concept of these benefits, my main thing is I'd see it more a s afucntion of a tactics skill not leadership. But game balance wise I can see why they would put in under socail skills instead of lets say logic skills.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Toss me in the not impressed category. This smacks of the intution 1/logic 1 Elan (of Order of the Stick) using inspire competence bard abilities.... *sings a bard song to make everyone sneak better!*

Though the point you're missing is the applicable social modifiers... those things tons of people kept forgetting.

Now look at the applicable social modifiers on page 140 as well.



But in any case... pursuant to the original question...
That means the infiltrator/face type now needs 3 skill groups if hypothetically leadership isn't the dump skill it's typically been. Acting, Stealth, and Influence. That's a lot of skills leaving little room for marginal combat ability... perception... etc.

Dude only deckers are focussed enough that they can't buy combat ability.

[Sendaz]

Psychological impact - nothing quasi-magical involved. Helping people push just that little bit harder, and such. Or from another angle... Where's the far more substantial Initiative boost from Edge come from?

Comparing Edge to anything is like apples and oranges though. It is a game mechanic thrown in to allow for cinematic effect and you could run the game completely without it as some games do.

I can agree psychological impact motivating you to strive just that bit more as well as one leader pointing at an enemy mage yelling 'GEEK THAT SOB' to focus the group fire. Anyone who has played in an mmorpg pvp area and the opposition takes the time to emote pointing at you to designate you for combined assault will know the feeling. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


All I am trying to do is narrow down when it could work and not. Again if the leader rallies us providing a +3 to Init rolls and I already have Increased Reflexes giving me +3 to init would they still stack? It is an important point as it normally can not stack with other Init boosters, plus the cap in game is still +4, but does the Leader Rally fall into this category and thus does not stack or can it stack but just up to the +4 cap total or something else? The Leader will need to know these things so if he is not wasting abilities.

[Falconer]

Dude only deckers are focussed enough that they can't buy combat ability.

Yeah I know with only two skill groups to speak of!

It sure is hard on them to brick that gear!

Even then most deckers don't bother with the entire skill groups only cherry picking hacking & computer to the max. (remember data search was combined with computer! most relied on stealth over cybercombat and only put a single rank in ewar to make the checks).

[Shemhazai]

What this is really going to do is help your opposition. They'll definitely have a leader already set up.

Also, what kind of proximity are we talking about? Do they need to at least be nearby for the bonuses to work? Also, if it's hits and not net hits, it's kind of all-or-nothing, isn't it?

This could have a big effect on allied NPCs. I am curious about the social modifiers that would apply to the opposed test.

Speaking of Intiative, since the new augmented max is current base attribute +4, (6 + 4) x 2 = 20 max Initiative. You can also increase Initiative by +4, so that would be 24 + the total of 5 dice, which roll on average 17.5 for an average of 31.5 without the Exceptional Attribute positive quality (minus 1 for Dwarves and Trolls). Could lucky rolls by both the leader and a character's initiative push that total to 41 for five meatspace Combat Actions?

Falconer, it looks like the magician face is less viable with the new skill group setup, but how about an Elven aspected conjurer shaman face? I think that would rock! And then have a more focused spellcaster on the team. I think that would work well indeed.

[Mäx]

Speaking of Intiative, since the new augmented max is current base attribute +4, (6 + 4) x 2 = 20 max Initiative. You can also increase Initiative by +4, so that would be 24 + the total of 5 dice, which roll on average 17.5 for an average of 31.5 without the Exceptional Attribute positive quality (minus 1 for Dwarves and Trolls). Could lucky rolls by both the leader and a character's initiative push that total to 41 for five meatspace Combat Actions?

If you get lucky enought on the dice roll you can get it to 50+ for six actions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Ricochet]

If you get lucky enought on the dice roll you can get it to 50+ for six actions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

With a good leader roll from the face, it's theoretically possible to get 60+ for a seventh, since you can get 54 without the face getting involved. The face would need 12 successes, so it involves some edge on their part.