 William Gibson's opinion of Shadowrun, ...ouch... |
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 May 8 2004, 06:46 PM
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323  |
http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/98-3/issue...ue7/gibson.html Yeah, I know the article is somewhat old - 1998 - but this was the first time I'd seen or heard of it, so I figured there would probably be some other people out there who hadnt come across it either. choice section:
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May 8 2004, 06:52 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Heh... and then theres this, a more recent (year-old) comment in William Gibson's blog.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 8 2004, 06:59 PM
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#3
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Guests |
Yeah, but Gibson's utility has long past, thank you. His opinion of SR means, for me, precisely d*ck.
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May 8 2004, 07:07 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 10-April 04 From: Chicago, IL...Ich vermisse Deutschland. Member No.: 6,230 |
He's entitled to his opinion. In view of the membership of this forum 1) He did lay a lot of groundwork for cyberpunk, 2) what Crimson Dude said. The fact that he doesn't like it is irrevelant. Somehow, I don't see him getting behind Deadlands either; it just seems like he's too much of a "genre purist" to get behind genre milkshakes like Shadowrun or Deadlands.
Don |
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May 8 2004, 07:18 PM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
At least his computer system, while nonsensical, suspended disbelief vaguely.
Stephenson has yet to provide a reason why his computer systems were immersive. They shouldn't have been by the description in Snow Crash. ~J |
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May 8 2004, 07:21 PM
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#6
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MechRigger Delux Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Hanger 18, WPAFB Member No.: 1,657 |
This is what it would sound like if Anne Rice bitched about White Wolf's Vampire...
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May 8 2004, 07:48 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Wilton NH Member No.: 3,872 |
I can completely see, and understand his perspective.
Post Modern writers have generally worked hard to escape the fantasy/sci-fi "joke" of a genre, and try to push their writings into something more mainstream. And in general have succeeded to some degree. Shadowrun to them, is a throwback, its a reminder of what they are trying to escape. Cyperpunk is a hard, gritty, neo-modern setting, and upon first appearences throwing magic and 'elves' into the mix tends to give the impression that you've completely deviated from the intent of the cyberpunk genre and regressed back into pulp-fantasy. Now as with all things, how you mesh them together, and especially in a role-playing game, how you portray that can certainly vary the outcome. This kind of follows along with the discussion in the other thread where folks were discussing "old school" Shadowrun vs. "new school" Shadowrun... the gritty/realistic vs. the cartoon/comic book sides of Shadowrun. Each is trying to recreate a particular genre's intent, but both use the same medium to get there. And as far as I see it, Shadowrun took the best of two worlds, and combined them to create something completely new. It's parents were cyberpunk & fantasy, and it is a close relative of Steampunk (which for some reason I really don't care for, probably because I like cyberpunk more than fantasy). Now I'm wishing I had of asked Gibson his views of Shadowrun back when he spoke at my college in 92... :shock: Oh well, another missed opportunity for mass-hysteria... |
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May 8 2004, 09:48 PM
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#8
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Heh, I used to have pretty much the same opinion of Shadowrun back in the early 90's when I loved Cyberpunk 2020. However, my tastes have changed and the magic, to a large extent, simply enhances the themes already present in the cyberpunk genre. It's not the same genre at that point, exactly, though they are similar.
The old CP dice mechanic (while interesitng in its own way) is out dated, too, which is another reason why my tastes have progressed ;) |
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May 9 2004, 12:55 AM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Eh.
I find the return of magic to the world far more believable than a lot of the crap Gibson writes about. You know, like hacking dolphins and, apparently, a need for a data courier who stores the information in their head at the cost of removing their long-term memories. Because, for the love of God, man, there can't be any other secure way to transfer data (and I'm still trying to figure out what was more secure about that beyond the encryption method, which could have been done in any medium). Not even with super-intelligent dolphin hackers living in the remnants of the Brooklyn Bridge. |
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May 9 2004, 01:10 AM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
The short story was actually pretty good. The bit with the sawed-off shotgun in the gym bag, for instance. The movie... there are things best not talked about, and it is one.
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May 9 2004, 01:13 AM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Just to hurt your soul: Dunky did donate a nice chunk of cash to whatever group can get a datajack work on a dolphin (and/or any of a list of other non-human creatures). |
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May 9 2004, 02:42 AM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Never, ever judge William Gibson by his movies. Awful stuff. Jonny Mneumonic was a particularly bad example (I mention this only because it is more well-known than New Rose Hotel).
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May 9 2004, 02:53 AM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Don't gimme started. Anyway, if it's any consolation, I hate cyberpunk as a genre anyway. Most of the inspiration found in cyberpunk works (the Crash of '29, VITAS, Deus, the Matrix, etc.) are the parts of Shadowrun I dislike the most, too. Coincidence? I think not. I prefer to look at movies like Snatch, Boondock Saints, Pulp Fiction, and the Fifth Element as inspiration for Shadowrun than most of Gibson's crap. Just because it has cyberware and involves megacorporations, that doesn't make it cyberpunk anymore than having elves and dwarfs makes it anything like Middle Earth. Shadowrun rarely even refers to itself that way to begin with. Hell, I think it's only mentioned once in 3rd Edition, but I could easily be wrong there. So boo-hoo. Some hack doesn't like Shadowrun and, despite having stolen concepts and bastardizing ideas left and right himself (just like every other author), feels that his work was stolen from him... well, just cry me a river. |
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May 9 2004, 02:56 AM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I don't think it's an unfair comparison. I happen to think Johnny Mneumonic was a crappy story. I picked up a paperback of his stuff in the used pile at the Library for a quarter a while ago. I still feel like his big bad reputation cheated me out of 25 cents. |
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May 9 2004, 03:01 AM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
But think of the fun you can have when the group decker discovers that his in-Matrix nemesis is Squarky down at the zoo. This assumes the GM doesn't go crazy with datajacking dolphins. Although a new policlub to get dolphins the rights metahumanity has would add something to the game (something stupid, but still something) and nothing says "What the drek is going on?" like a dolphin rigger cruising downtown in a mobile aquarium. |
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May 9 2004, 03:02 AM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I've said this before, I will repeat it here: you either love Gibson, or hate him. Same goes for Tolkein.
Both were influential in Shadowrun, neither is required reading for Shadowrun. Gibson's said his piece and let it lie, I suggest the same to y'all. |
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May 9 2004, 03:04 AM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
I would add to the second part there "to them."Just because gibson is among the first doesn't make it exclusive. Remember Columbus came to the america's 4 times, but never really understood what he'd touched. Being a pioneer in the genre doesn't make it exclusively his, and he really doesn't like that. Other people following his vision, fine, but someone who sees it differnetly, his vision, his baby. No matter hwat he claims he's obviously po'ed by it or he wouldn't have bothered to write this stuff. The success of the SR system shows that enough people like this particular development to make it successful. How many of us have looked at the world a little differently because of SR ?(OK I think my boss really is a troll but that's neither here nor there.) |
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May 9 2004, 03:24 AM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Same goes for Hitler :| |
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May 9 2004, 03:37 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Without the intendent racism. :P
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May 9 2004, 03:47 AM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Wait, are you talking about Tolkein or Hitler? ;)
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May 9 2004, 04:45 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,110 |
lol edit: el oh el This post has been edited by Shanshu Freeman: May 9 2004, 04:46 AM |
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May 9 2004, 05:21 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Hey, at least the Nazis had that song "8 Days a Week." That was a catchy tune.
I think Gibson's contention that SR is a "throwback" because it makes it harder to get out of the sci-fi/fantasy rut is a little lame. Cyberpunk's been dead for a decade, and the sword and sorcery stories that are griped about so much in the introductions to his works are really successful these days (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings). If anything, I bet SR is helping to keep cyberpunk in the mainstream, because people can picture their elf street sam as Orlando Bloom. |
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May 9 2004, 06:28 AM
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#23
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I keep having this vision of their elf sam falling out of a chopper... and I keep thinking Troy is Medieval: Blackhawk Down.
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May 9 2004, 06:42 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 897 Joined: 26-February 02 From: TIME OUT Member No.: 1,989 |
i try not to make shadowrun too cartoon-like. elves that think theyre the elves of lore are dicks, but the rest are just people that look different. i dont use laserpistols, but i do use magic. i like magic and i play magicians.
they rock also i never read anything of gibsons, he can suck my ares predator with enhanced aim centered on it. booya |
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May 9 2004, 10:49 AM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
I neither love nor hate Gibson - alot of what he has written I consider to be mediocre work, especially when read today, but a fair amount of it is pretty good - he did have alot of fresh ideas in the beginning.
In his defence he does say in the above link that he knows he stole from alot of people too, and he does say that while he personally is revolted (my words) by the mixing of elves with 'his DNA' (his words - I'll get to that) he largely ignores it. While using the words 'my DNA' seems abit megalomaniac at first, it really isn't - he seems himself simply as a link in a chain - he mixed from several influences to produce his work, and he has passed on that work as influence to others. The analogy of DNA is quite relevant, since the ideas are passed on from generation to generation of writers; mutated and mixed with others. |
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