Third Edition Houserules: Cyber-Limbs Options

[Bertramn]

One of my players complaining about the cost of cyber-limbs in third edition
got me thinking about those, and after I took a look at the overall costs,
the options they open up, and the relation to Bioware alternatives,
I came to the conclusion, that I want to house-rule them in my game.
_______________

The things I do not like:

The price is outrageous! This includes the price for cyber-limb augmentations, like a strength upgrade.
How can I expect to see gutter-punks on the street sporting chrome, when the basic kit costs 100k, without any additions.

The starting values seem strangely chosen, and the augmentation rules are clunky and confusing at best,
I still have not found the price of a strength upgrade in Man&Machine, after reading the pages 5 times over.
________________

Fixes I can think of:

Cutting the prices to a third, or even less. At least for standard-ware.
The limbs cost a lot of Essence, so the players will prefer higher grade ware anyway, which drives up the price again.
Also, upgrading the ware beyond the capabilities of ones own body is expensive enough,
in addition to costing Essence again, so the standard stuff does not have to be so hard on the wallet.
This way, Standard ware becomes as accessible as the setting requires.

I quite liked the approach fourth edition took to this, starting the attributes off at a value of 3,
and making the upgrade up to the level of the overall body relatively inexpensive.
This is made especially easy by third edition having only two attributes the ware can have, since it has no Body.
Working a fix over the hand- and foot-armor, would be pretty easy, by only allowing armor on full limbs to add to the overall score.
However I would be inclined to allow forearm armor to be added to close combat damage resistance, in Full Defense at least.

_________________

The only thing I worry about is how this impacts how the starting money is spent.

On the other hand, I think it would be great to have more players in my games walk around with cyber.
The way I see it, they should WANT to shred their souls with ware, for the edge it gives them,
so the in-game rules for ware should reflect this.

What are your thoughts?
Do you play cyber-limbs in third edition RAW?

[Stahlseele]

SR3 Cyber Limb Enhancements are not in Man and Machine but in SR3 Source Book on page 303 according to the NSRCG3
Also: in SR3, Cyberlimb-Armor got averaged, making it worthless. And it could only be applied to full limbs if i remember correctly.
2 Arms in a pair give +1 body and start of at STR4.
2 Legs in a pair give +2 body and start of at QCK4.

Furthermore, each arm and leg makes other bodyware cheaper in both essence and money cost.
But at the 3rd limb, you start losing bonus from other bodyware again.

[Lobo0705]

In 3e the base human or elven cyberlimb starts with a Strength of 4, dwarfs and orks with a Strength of 6, and trolls with a Strength of 8.

Strength enhancements cost 50K per level for the first 3 levels, and 75K per level for each level above that.

All cyberlimbs come with base quickness of 4.

A pair of arms gives you +1 body, a pair of legs gives you +2 body.

1 limb gives you +1 Power to your attacks, 2 limbs gives you +2 Power.

As Stahlseele said, certain items get cheaper if you have cyberlimbs: Bone lacing, dermal armor, dermal sheaths, muscle augmentation,
muscle replacement and orthoskin all receive a 10% discount in essence and cost PER LIMB. However, having a 3rd or 4th limb starts to negate their bonuses - if you have 5 replacements (remember that torso and skull count) you lose all bonuses from those cyber/bio enhancements.

To answer your question directly though, yes, we always played RAW when we played 3e.

[Bertramn]

Hm...

Having a separate value for the Strength of a cyber-limb makes a load of sense.

Having a completely separate value for Quickness doesn't, now that I think about it.
Also, it punishes characters with high Agility scores, for getting a cyber-limb.
I think the Quickness of the limb should be related in some way to the Quickness of the character.

If I were to put this into fluff, it would kind of be like this:
A very nimble person, and a clumsy guy, both loose an arm.
Let us assume that they are both fitted with the same model of cyber-arm,
a base-line model.
My hypothesis is that, even though they are both fitted with the same hardware,
the nimble guy is able to use the ware way more naturally.
He is still below his former level, since the ware is not of high quality, and impairs him quite a bit,
but he should be above the clumsy guy in how he handles movements.

The reason why I think that it should go down that way, is that a lot of agility, quickness, nimbleness,
is not trained within the place where you ARE agile (the hands for a Piano player for example),
but a lot of it takes place in the brain, within the Motor cortex, and the cerebellum,
where Neurons are being connected throughout your training,
improving the networking within the brain, for the task you are training.
These connections do not disappear right away, when you loose an arm. That takes time. More time than loosing muscle mass.

In game terms I would, for example, start off the Quickness of the limb at Quickness-3(minimum 1) for a standard grade item.
Upgrading this to Quickness-2 would cost a little, because you have to buy a better model,
which allows for a more accurate translation of your nerve innervation, from biochemical, into electronic signals.
I do not even know whether or not I like the concept of the limbs Quickness going above your own,
because, as I said, quickness is something which does not necessarily come from the limb itself.
To a point it is fine, I guess... it should require training though, if it was to be realistic.

[Lobo0705]

Remember that in 3e, Quickness has to stand in for lots of different things, not just nimbleness, but also speed as well. Someone who is relatively sedentary and doesn't run very often, thus having weak legs cannot run very fast. If you replace both of them with cyberlegs, you will tend to run a little faster. Blame it on reducing all agility/speed/nimbleness related things to one stat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also, the rules cover unbalanced stats, - you determine Quickness for Combat Pool, Reaction and Initiative by adding up the total value of all 4 limbs and dividing by 4.

So, in your example, someone with a natural quickness of 5 and someone with a natural quickness of 2 both get a standard cyberarm.

For the person with Quickness 5, his average Quickness for the above items would be (5+5+5+4)/4=4.75, always round down, so 4.

For the person with the Quickness of 2, his average Quickness for the above items would be (2+2+2+4)/4=2.5, always round down, so 2.

The guy with the higher Quickness is slowed down a little, since the limb doesn't work as well as his natural one. For the other person, where the limb is actually an improvement on his natural arm, it isn't enough to make him faster than he is naturally. If he were to get another limb, however, it becomes (2+2+4+4)/4=3, so replacing more and more of you with a machine makes your physical performance improve.

[nezumi]

I'm testing SR3R with only the main book. Here are our current rules:

Cyberlimbs
Obvious arm/leg .75 $37.5k
Synthetic arm/leg .75 $50k - difficult to spot as cyber, conceal of 8
Built in device - 4*normal cost
Built in smartgun link .25 $2.5k
Direct Neural Interface .1 $4.5k
Strength Enhancement (default strength is 6 for humans)
1-3 (per limb) - $25k per point (-1 conceal per point)
4-6 (per limb) .2/pt $37.5k per point (-2 conceal per point)

No issues so far, although the costs may still be a bit too high.
Cyberlimbs come with 2/2 armor. To calculate total armor added by cyberlimbs: add up the armor from all the limbs and divide by 4 (round down). The resulting number is added to worn armor without any stacking penalty. A cyberarm adds 1 point of recoil compensation to any weapon fired with it.

[Siygess]

I'm testing SR3R with only the main book. Here are our current rules:

Cyberlimbs
Obvious arm/leg .75 $37.5k
Synthetic arm/leg .75 $50k - difficult to spot as cyber, conceal of 8
Built in device - 4*normal cost
Built in smartgun link .25 $2.5k
Direct Neural Interface .1 $4.5k
Strength Enhancement (default strength is 6 for humans)
1-3 (per limb) - $25k per point (-1 conceal per point)
4-6 (per limb) .2/pt $37.5k per point (-2 conceal per point)

No issues so far, although the costs may still be a bit too high.
Cyberlimbs come with 2/2 armor. To calculate total armor added by cyberlimbs: add up the armor from all the limbs and divide by 4 (round down). The resulting number is added to worn armor without any stacking penalty. A cyberarm adds 1 point of recoil compensation to any weapon fired with it.

Bloody hell, if cyberlimbs had all those freebies and were this cheap in the main rules my game would be cyborg city!

[binarywraith]

Hell, at that price, why isn't every corpsec monkey a full conversion? 200k for all four limbs is a dirt cheap investment when you're building supersoldiers.

[Sendaz]

Domo Arigato Mr Roboto (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Stahlseele]

And it'd todally be on par with the fluff of cyber being the cheap replacement and cloned limbs being the go to for anybody who has money.
despite the fact that, if i remember correctly, a cloned limb actually only costs 100k or so as well . .

As for why there are no full conversion cyborgs running around if it's so cheap?
Because the Essence-Cost still means going alpha or rather beta to get anything usefull in addition to the shiny metal ass.

It's worthless, because you are closer to Alex J. Murphy than to the T-600. And they both only can give and take a bullet every now and then.
What you want is the 1 Million Dollar Man. Because HE can run fast, is strong, can see and hear beyond what normal people can and still looks and feels like the genuine article.
He can go in under cover. He can go in to social meet and greet. And he can probably climb and dodge and break into stuff better without leaving traces.

[Bertramn]

Bloody hell, if cyberlimbs had all those freebies and were this cheap in the main rules my game would be cyborg city!

Well... you want gangers with cyber or not? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I always thought that cyber was kind of part of the setting,
in a way that it realistically could not be if your prosthesis costs 100k minimum.

@nezumi:
I like it, though I would start a little lower even, with the lowest possible cyber-prosthesis.
The attributes start off pretty high though, I gotta say.

@lobo:
Thanks man, that set it into perspective a little, I had actually not thought about the sheer speed factor.

[Stahlseele]

Attributes of 4 fairly high? O.o
4 is barely above human standard o.O

[Bertramn]

[...]
Strength Enhancement (default strength is 6 for humans)
[...]

That's what I meant. Did I get it wrong?

[Lobo0705]

@Bertramn - I think Stahlseele was referring to the RAW, i.e. Strength of 4, whereas you were referring to nezumi's house rules, stat of 6.

To replace a limb in SR3:

An arm donated to a hospital, a so called Type O limb, would be 25,000.
An arm that was "laying around" in the hospital, a so called generic limb, would be 15,000
A vat grown arm takes 8 weeks and is 25,000.

All of the above are subject to rejection and having Stress put on them by the GM at his/her discretion - the generic limb more so than the others.

A cloned arm takes 8 weeks and is 50,000.
A forced growth arm takes 8 weeks and is 100,000 - note - this is something of a problem, given that the whole idea of the "forced growth" is to speed things up, but they do not have a reduction in time to offset the price increase. My guess would be to halve the time to 4 weeks.

These would not be subject to rejection since they are cloned from your own DNA.

To compare against that, an obvious cyberarm is 75,000 - more expensive than any of the above, except for the forced growth clone arm. A synthetic one is even more expensive, coming in at 100,000. Mind you, it does come with perks, there is the higher strength and quickness (for most people) the ability to have lots of upgrades, etc - but it is definitely more expensive than just getting a replacement limb - even one made from your own DNA.


But Shadowrun 1e through 3e (and to a lesser extent, later versions) has all sorts of inconsistencies with its setting and pricing. For the most part, many pieces of cyberware are so expensive as to ask yourself, "Why, when the prototypical Shadowrunner is supposed to be down on his luck, eating scraps and with no cash, are they not retiring instead of saving up 500,000 for that Wired Reflexes 3?"

Let me say though, that I have always loved this game from 1e on - you just sort of have to close your eyes a little at stuff like that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

Sure, for 1.5 essence and $300k, you can be a pretty rocking melee specialist. But then, you already could be pretty rocking in melee for half of that.

And it'd todally be on par with the fluff of cyber being the cheap replacement and cloned limbs being the go to for anybody who has money.
despite the fact that, if i remember correctly, a cloned limb actually only costs 100k or so as well . .

As for why there are no full conversion cyborgs running around if it's so cheap?
Because the Essence-Cost still means going alpha or rather beta to get anything usefull in addition to the shiny metal ass.

It's worthless, because you are closer to Alex J. Murphy than to the T-600. And they both only can give and take a bullet every now and then.
What you want is the 1 Million Dollar Man. Because HE can run fast, is strong, can see and hear beyond what normal people can and still looks and feels like the genuine article.
He can go in under cover. He can go in to social meet and greet. And he can probably climb and dodge and break into stuff better without leaving traces.

Exactly this.

I've been playing Shadowrun since 1998, and in all that time I've seen one character take a cyberlimb, and it was a rigger who used it to jam all her rigger gear in it. So we figured, if we're going to play a game where chrome is a major feature, we should probably make the chrome nice enough for people to actually want to get it on purpose.

So far, it's been pretty good. I'd love more playtest data on it though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Attributes of 4 fairly high? O.o
4 is barely above human standard o.O

When the average is 3, 4 is above average and stands out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

@Lobo mostly correct.
Biggest Problem is that cloned limbs do not take up essence as far as i remember.
And the Cyber obviously does . .

When the average is 3, 4 is above average and stands out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You are one third above average.
The same as people with 2 STR and QCK are one third below average.
And then there is one third of exactly average with 3/3 STR/QCK.
(yes, very simplified, i know) So in a Population of, let us for simplicity reasons say 6 billion people . .
yes, you will stand out together with 2 billion other people compared to 4 billion other people.
And at STR4/QCK4 that's . . trained? not even professional? levels i think.

[Lobo0705]

@Lobo mostly correct.
Biggest Problem is that cloned limbs do not take up essence as far as i remember.
And the Cyber obviously does . .

As far as I can tell (and I've reread the section in the SR3 rules a couple times - although I'm perfectly willing to accept I missed something), getting a replacement limb of any non-cyber variety (generic, Type O donor, vat grown, cloned) does NOT cost essence.

However, Awakened characters risk Magic loss if they get a non-cloned replacement. Interestingly enough, lets assume they get a donor limb and lose the Magic point. If they subsequently get a cloned limb, that Magic point is restored (SR3 rules, page 129)

Btw - the stuff for body parts is in Man and Machine page 140

[Bertramn]

Ok, Quickness starts 3 below the Characters, at a minimum of 1.
Strength starts at 4.

Obvious Cyber-limb: 1.25 E, 5k

Synthetic Cyber-limb: 1.25 E, 7.5k (All upgrades to this cost +50%)

Strength Upgrade;
up to Body (per point): -, 1k
above Body (per point): 0.125 E, 3k

Quickness Upgrade;
points 1-3 (per point): -, 1k
points 4-6 (per point): 0.125, 3k

Built-In Device: -, 4x normal
_______________________________________

Ok, this makes Cyberlimbs relatively inexpensive, if you want the basic kit.
However:
It eliminates a few logical problems with the system as it is now.
1.
Trolls, Orks and Dwarves do not get strength points for free anymore.
Why should dem Trogs get the better ware for the same price? *spits*
2.
Quickness is linked to the Quickness of the user. If you want better than your Quickness, the procedure has to be more invasive, and costs a lot more.
3.
People on the street can afford the ware, even though the ware they get is not all that great.
It is still a stronger limb than most people have.

Also, I raised the Essence cost, so if you want the Essence cost as it is now (1), you have to buy alphaware, which makes everything a lot more expensive.

I thought it was a good idea to link Strength to Body in the way I did.
You can be hella strong, doesn't mean your bones can handle the cyber. (seen an arm break in armrestling?)

[binarywraith]

And it'd todally be on par with the fluff of cyber being the cheap replacement and cloned limbs being the go to for anybody who has money.
despite the fact that, if i remember correctly, a cloned limb actually only costs 100k or so as well . .

As for why there are no full conversion cyborgs running around if it's so cheap?
Because the Essence-Cost still means going alpha or rather beta to get anything usefull in addition to the shiny metal ass.

It's worthless, because you are closer to Alex J. Murphy than to the T-600. And they both only can give and take a bullet every now and then.
What you want is the 1 Million Dollar Man. Because HE can run fast, is strong, can see and hear beyond what normal people can and still looks and feels like the genuine article.
He can go in under cover. He can go in to social meet and greet. And he can probably climb and dodge and break into stuff better without leaving traces.

Not really a concern for the corps, though, as they can break out the Heavy Security gear to make their Robosams able to take a hit.

As far as gangers with cyber, it's creepy, but used cyber exists for a reason...

[Stahlseele]

I think under SR3 mages faced the risk of losing magic even with taking heavy damage such as actually losing the limb in the first place. And then again when looking for a replacement.
Might even have been direct essence loss that would affect non mages as well, but it's been years since i last read the rules about that stuff. Mostly using memory, and i'm getting old <.<

[Lobo0705]

I think under SR3 mages faced the risk of losing magic even with taking heavy damage such as actually losing the limb in the first place. And then again when looking for a replacement.
Might even have been direct essence loss that would affect non mages as well, but it's been years since i last read the rules about that stuff. Mostly using memory, and i'm getting old <.<

Correct with the magic loss possibility - basically every time they took a deadly wound, they had to check.

So if, for instance, they take a deadly wound and lose a limb. They have to check for taking the deadly wound.

They are treated for the wound to heal them. - if you don't take the +2 TN for them being Awakened, they have to check again.

They have surgery to implant a non-cloned limb, if the surgery test doesn't take into account the +2 TN, they have to check again, and them receiving a non-cloned limb would cause them to check again.

Lots of ways to lose essence (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

ETA - should be magic, not essence.

[nezumi]

Lots of ways to lose essence (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think you meant 'to lose magic' there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But yes, mages get pooched pretty hard. However, that has nothing to do with the cost of cyberlimbs.

[nezumi]

Ok, Quickness starts 3 below the Characters, at a minimum of 1.

Do the rules for Quickness in M&M still apply? If so, that means a 'standard' cyberlimb is $8k (or really, $16k, because you're expecting people to buy it alpha). You also can't really get Quickness boosts without a pile of penalties without buying two limbs, which means to get a BONUS, you're paying 2.625 essence for a one-point bonus. Clearly not a great buy (even with alpha).

Capping the Strength boost at Body is a neat change. I assume there would be a benefit too from getting a cybertorso. I don't think it'll make a huge change in practice, though. The characters who usually boost strength already have Body out the wazoo.

Obvious Cyber-limb: 1.25 E, 5k

I'm not feeling the essence bump. This is probably the biggest thing for me, even accepting that most people will buy it alpha. 1 essence is too expensive. If you're buying it betaware to get reasonable costs, that to me is a concern.

Rather than expecting people to buy it alphaware, I'd make the standard version reasonable (with the higher nuyen cost and the lower essence), then offer a crummy 'for the people' version which is dirt cheap and an essence sucker. I think the assumption is the cyber in the book is stuff runners are likely to buy. So Timmy's wind-up cyberlimb won't be included, even if it's in the world.

(And on that topic, I'm curious why you dropped the Quickness score, but kept Strength constant and above average. If we're starting with drektastic ware, wouldn't both scores be cruddy and have to be bought up to reasonable levels?)

[Lobo0705]

My concern would be with things like:

I am a troll and have a Strength of 5 and a Body of 11.

I buy a limb for 5K and 6 points worth of Strength enhancement for 6K.

If I punch someone, I can "Lead with that limb" (M&M page 34) and use the strength of 12. It seems a little cheap for 11K.