 Decking and Astral Projection, Do they mix? |
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 Jul 24 2004, 06:20 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 15-May 02 From: Cincinnati Member No.: 2,741  |
Ok the question here is what happens if somebody is decking and is then forced to astral project. Going without books I think I remember spirits being able to induce astral projection and maybe a drug causing astral projection. But what happens if these are done to someone decking. Where does his astral form appear? Can it happen? Is he immediately disrupted? What happens to his icon? Any thoughts on this. Even if its not totally possible I'd like to hear ideas I'm thinking of running some stuff along these lines. Thanks.
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Jul 24 2004, 06:27 AM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 13-July 04 Member No.: 6,475 |
it's covered in matrix basically you can if I remember you can but your still vulnerable to damage in the matrix.
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Jul 24 2004, 07:36 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 15-May 02 From: Cincinnati Member No.: 2,741 |
Ok, checked Matrix and all it has to say about the awakened using the Matrix is that its not a physical place and you can't cast spells from the Matrix. Checking my other books shows there's no real way to induce Astral Projection. What I was really planning though was for this to be the next step for the good Dr. Halberstam. I don't know what he was up to last and whether it worked out but I know he's at least succeeded in wiring brains directly into the Matrix. I was thinking if he could wire an Awakened into the Mtrix and then induce astral projection something might happen. Would the person be astral within the Matrix? Would they pop up astrally at whatever computer they were currently in? I somehow don't think the results would be them going astral right next to thier body, it seems to me that the astral self is based more on the consciousness than on the body and the conciousness could wander within the Matrix.
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Jul 24 2004, 07:57 PM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No. You never go anywhere "in" the Matrix anymore than you go anywhere when you surf the web today. It's just a VR interface. If you astrally project, and there's nothing stopping you from doing so while jacked in, you'll project normally from your meatbody.
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Jul 24 2004, 08:45 PM
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#5
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
And likely suffer dumpshock. Your icon would remain in the matrix but "go limp" and become nonresponsive because it's still connected to your brain, but noone is there to control it. kind of like leaving the phone off the hook.
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Jul 25 2004, 02:03 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
The situation is identical to watching TV and being forced to astrally project. The matrix is not an alternate reality. It is a fake, computer-generated cartoon that you can interact with. Sometimes its presented to you by a computer screen and speakers, sometimes more directly by way of a datajack. But it's the same thing: a pretend place. The decker's "soul" and "astral form" are still sitting right in front of the computer. Now, if you're watching a cartoon and someone makes you astrally project, where do you appear? In front of your TV, in the astral space of your living room. The same thing will happen with the Matrix. It's not a real place you can project into, just like that cartoon. |
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Jul 25 2004, 05:27 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 25-October 02 Member No.: 3,498 |
I'm not sure I agree that the matrix is just a glorified GUI running on the deckers deck... how come they don't just run an ICE blocker to stop downloading the ICE from the target system if its supposedly all just an interface on my deck...
Much of the damage and operations done in the Matrix stongly implies that your conciousness is somehow deeply connected with your Persona Program, and goes where it does. Watching a cartoon doesn't require me to make strenuous efforts at +8 target numbers to interact with the real world while doing so... That said, I'd dumpshock the decker and have their projection form at their meat body |
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Jul 25 2004, 10:30 AM
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#8
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
It sure does if you're watching it via Simsense.
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Jul 25 2004, 11:39 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
That's called "hardening," and "defensive utilities." However, just like viruses are being written to side-step defensive software today, IC is written to bypass defensive software. Note that with a Cold ASIST interface you generally don't take lethal damage, implying some absolute form of software filter is in effect.
...or that there are wires going deep into your brain to input and output information, and when the software safeties are removed (in other words, you run with a Hot ASIST interface) damaging information can be downloaded into your brain. The difference between decking with an ASIST interface and watching a cartoon on TV is that it's much harder for the TV to injure you. Most TVs do not insert wires into your brain. Most TVs do not so directly fiddle with so many different parts of your brain. Now and then, clever TV writers do find a method of triggering dangerous cerebral responses, but they have an even "colder interface" to work through than the typical deck.
However, REM sleep does. You know that RAS Override in a deck? It triggers the "reticular activating system" in your brain, the part of your brain that keeps you from trashing around and sleep walking while having lucid dreams. Misbehaving RASs (and hypothalumuses) are often blamed for narcolepsy. They turn on and, bang! you're asleep, in REM sleep. The RAS is a great system to tap if you want to inject a whole new set of sensations into the decker's brain without dealing with all the noise from eyes, ears, etc. Turn it on, filter out the real world (+8 to deal with the real world), and use the ASIST to introduce a new set of sensations. |
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Jul 25 2004, 06:19 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 15-May 02 From: Cincinnati Member No.: 2,741 |
Ok this is probably one of the areas that has me thinking like this. It would seem, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, that you're likening decking to dreaming. At least physically the person is in the same state they are while dreaming but the "dreams" are really information that's coming through the deck. Alot of the shamanistic tradtions seem to compare astral projection to dreaming, in Aboriginal magic its even described as The Dreaming. It seems to me that the two states are somewhat similar, and to a sufficiently derranged mind like Dr. Halberstam's forcing people into a sort of astral-decking state would seem a logical step given his track record.
I really want to know if anybody can think up anyway to kind of force the situation. It doesn't have to be easy it can hurt the subject, if we want we can not refer to them as subjects and call them victims. But I was thinking of using Dr. Halberstam in this fashion because he's had some time off to think of new things and I really think this might be an idea he'd follow up. |
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Jul 25 2004, 06:30 PM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Again, there's nothing to project into regarding the Matrix. It's all just an illusion created by simsense signals. Ever watch Star Trek: The Next Generation? Does going into the holodeck transport people through time and space, or does it simply create an illusion around them? It's the same fundamental difference. If someone on TNG were capable of astral projection, they would project in the holodeck... not the 1920's gangster-land Chicago they were currently simulating. And unlike the holodeck, the Matrix doesn't even create real material around the user; it's all just in his head.
Astral projection actually has your consciousness leaving your body and traveling the world in another plane of existance. Decking has you sitting in a chair interacting with a computer. There's simply nothing to project into anymore than you can astrally project onto the Hispaniola just because you're reading Treasure Island at the time. Traveling to a metaplane inspired by the Matrix? That's a possibility. But it won't be the Matrix, it won't have any interaction with the Matrix, and you won't be able to communicate with anyone in the Matrix... but it's the closest you'll get. |
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Jul 25 2004, 08:18 PM
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#12
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Think of it as no different that watching TV except the tv sight and sound are pumped directly into your senses. That's it. The exact same state is accomplished andtime the user does anything with simsense. It doesn't really have to have anything to do with the matrix. It also doesn't have anything to do with dreaming except you can't move your body.
I understand what you want to do but it doesn't work that way. Even moreso, it really, really doesnt work that way. |
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Jul 25 2004, 10:00 PM
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#13
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
To answer the original question, yes you can project when decking. It requires a Willpower 10 test and it leaves you jacked in and totally unable to defend yourself or take any action (in the matrix).
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Jul 26 2004, 01:12 AM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
No. Simsense uses a portion of your brain involved in dreaming, but not all. See the end of the post for more on this. It's like watching TV. TV creates an image on a screen. Your eyes see the image, pass it along nerves to your brain, and your brain interprets the image. A desk cuts out the middlemen: it goes from the image source (it's simense chip) directly into the optical center of the brain (and auditory centers, and olfactory centers, and...etc.) That's it. Don't read more into than there is. Simsense is just a fancy version of TV that taps a few more senses, and bypasses some of the intermediary nerves and sensory organs. Now, since simsense bypasses those sensory organs (eyes, ears, etc.) you have a potential problem: you might be getting two signals. One from the Fancy TV (simsense chip) and one from the natural senses. How do you turn off the natural senses? Trigger the RAS in your brain, without the rest of the REM sleep brain centers. Then the fully awake brain has a single source of input: the Fancy TV. |
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Jul 26 2004, 05:25 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 29-January 04 From: Allentown, PA Member No.: 6,039 |
I agree that if you were to astrally project you would project into the room your meat body is in.
Though I also want to remind you of the 1st cardinal rule of gaming: It's your game and your world. If you like it, do it. -Wolf |
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Jul 26 2004, 06:12 PM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's true--it's your game world, do what you want. however, keep in mind that if you do this, you're changing a major aspect of the game world, with ramifications too many to fathom. something like this alters some of Shadowrun's basic premises.
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