Drugs / Chemicals, Additional doses? Options

[cpcarrot]

OK say you have a weapon loaded with capsule rounds loaded with some form of drug / chemical. For the sake of argument say pepper punch. Now if the weapon is capable of burst fire / fully auto fire how does this equate to additional doses? I.e. if you hit a guy with a 3 round burst does this count as a single dose or three doses of the compound? Likewise with auto fore 10 rounds... Is that 10 doses or just the 1?

[RedmondLarry]

Remember that an "immediate" affect doesn't happen till the end of the Combat Turn. Other things take longer. (Body Resistance Test Man and Machine p. 106).

Additional doses that hit the target, before the first dose takes affect, simply add one to the power when it does take affect. (Additional Dosage, same page). So ten doses is resisted as one dose with a power that is 9 higher.

Remember also that each 2 successes by the shooter raises the power by another 1 (Exposure Via Weapons, same page).

Additional exposure after the first bunch have taken affect are treated as a new dose.

/Edit for clarity

This post has been edited by OurTeam: Jul 28 2004, 11:37 AM

[cpcarrot]

Yes I know. What I was wondering was what counts as an additional dose. I.e does a three round burst count as 1 dose or 3? I know theyy only add to the power as stated in the rules but does a guy hit by a 3 round burst of capsule rounds containing pepper punch have to resist 12L or 14M when the time comes? I assume that a single shot followed by a second single shot counts as two doses but I was wondering if there are any parculiarities concerning bursts and autofire or if the number of rounds actually fired equals the number of doses properly staged that he has to resist.

[RedmondLarry]

A three-round burst is three doses. Three doses are resisted as if it was one dose with a power 2 higher. Any additional bursts that are received before it takes affect, however, will raise even further the target number that the subject will eventually have to try for on his resistance roll. In the last battle in our campaign, our troll was on the ground with 16 boxes of physical damage before the gamma scopolamine kicked in.

A burst doesn't rase the damage LEVEL, just the POWER. So damage on something might go from 6M to 11M with two bursts, but burst fire won't change the damage level (M to S, for example).

This post has been edited by OurTeam: Jul 30 2004, 03:57 AM

[shadd4d]

This is why getting hit by a burst from an ELD-AR loading DMSO/Gamma Scopalimine cocktail is darn near a death sentence for most characters.

Don

[RedmondLarry]

shadd4d, I don't understand. Is there something special about the ELD-AR (Corporate Security Handbook p. 69) that I'm missing. (I don't have the CS handbook, but NSRCG says its on p. 69.)

If the weapon is an 8M assault rifle firing a 3 round burst, the 3 capsule rounds themselves do 9S Stun as if they were Gel rounds (CC.37), but extra successes do not stage this damage up (M&M.106). If the target's body gets two successes on resisting the capsule rounds (impact armor applies), it'll take a Moderate Stun.

3 capsule rounds of DMSO/Gamma Scopalimine does 12D Stun damage at the end of the turn. Every two extra successes from the burst fire by the attacker, after the target's Dodge test removes successes, raise the power rating by +1 (CC.106). The target resists with Body (half of worn impact armor applies). Assuming this results in a Deadly Stun, I see the target as receiving a maximum of 16 boxes of Stun Damage. Yes, this carries over to the Physical condition monitor, but I don't see this as 'darn near a death sentence'.

Am I missing something about the weapon? Does it do 6-shot bursts or something else?

[shadd4d]

DMSO ignores armor (M&M, 112). So you're not resisting anything less than 10D stun, should you be wearing layered armor or anything (unless I'm missing something on FFBA, but I doubt it). Resisting 3 x 10D stun is typically going to result in physical damage, even being generous and getting 15 boxes will put someone paralyzed and in lots of pain and not moving, in addition to bad modifiers. Using simple body, 10 is difficult to reach, barring using blood filtration systems, which I have never actually seen anyone get.

With the right bioware and such, it shouldn't be a problem, but barring thoses circumstances, 3 x 10D stun will usually bring someone down (even with a trauma damperer, that's 27 boxes of damage). So you really gotta hope that you dodge this one.

Don

[Cursedsoul]

Actually I don't think DMSO ignore armor. I used to think so but the uppercrusties around here bitched at me for thinking this.

Apparently DMSO, if I remember correctly, only allows you to use a contact vector for the chemicals that don't have it, and would also allow chemicals to affect the person if you connect with armor instead of skin.

So you'd still get the armor rating halved (or whatever it says), you just get the ability TO inflict pain with the chemical.

[Ol' Scratch]

M&M p. 106 is pretty exacting in that it states that Impact armor reduces chemical attacks by half, and DMSO states nothing to the contrary of that text. In effect, DMSO just turns any chemical into a contact-vector attack, allowing it to be used in the manner listed on page 106. The Game Effects for DMSO is basically just restating that (notice that it says "offers little protection" not "completely ignores it".. and considering that an Armored Jacket will only lower the Power by 1, I'd say that qualifies as "little protection") and pointing out that fully-sealed armor and Chemical Seal treatments will work just fine against DMSO as it will any other contact-vector drug or chemical.

Also, where are you getting the 3 x 10D stun? That requires three Combat Turns to accomplish since no drug takes effect before a complete Combat Turn comes to an end, and additional "shots" during that time only increase the Power... just as OurTeam pointed out.

[shadd4d]

Check the text again, M&M 111-112. It states that it soaks through kevlar weaves and armored clothing and all armor that isn't guarded against chemicals, i.e. chemsuits and treated armor, which does jack if I get you in the face.

Sorry, but they're wrong. DMSO sets up the contact vector and soaks through armor, ergo you don't get the benefit of said armor.

There's nothing in the FAQ or Errata regarding it.

Edit: Having read pg 106, I'm against having DMSO reduce the power by 1/2 Impact actually. Game effect states it soaks right through, which I take to mean that it does just that without a power reduction or allowing you to soak using armor, since the chemical passes straight on through.

Don

This post has been edited by shadd4d: Jul 29 2004, 11:01 PM

[Ol' Scratch]

[BitBasher]

Remember, it's going to saturate the fabric while soaking through, and part of the dosage is left on the fibers it has to soak through, hence the half impact. Less of it reaches the target.

[shadd4d]

Didn't DMSO ignore all armor except chem suits according to Shadowtech? I have the sinking feeling I'm thinking in terms of Shadowtech and not M&M. Still, a burst from the ELD-AR is nothing to laugh off. One has to resist the stun (Max, 7M Stun) from the rounds and then whatever the drug does, namely 3 x (10-1/2(Impact Armor) + 1/2(extra success of the attacker))D Stun. Not as deadly, but still gives one pause.

Don

[Ol' Scratch]

I've only found DMSO/Capsule rounds to be worth it if you're up against a particularly tough opponent who pretty much ignores anything you have to shoot him with (like trolls) that you have to take down quickly but have no other alternatives for taking them down in less than a Combat Turn. For incapacitating guards, it's generally not that great since they still have plenty of time to sound alarms and return fire until the toxin kicks in.

Well, I also like it because it offers a non-lethal alternative for taking down opponents. But there's still better means of doing that more quickly, too.

It's far more useful for the bad guys, though, especially if they just want to take you in for questioning or interrogation.

Regarding Shadowtech, it specifically mentioned that porous armor provides no protection (both in flavor text and rules) and that only hard armor was halved. The rules have, obviously, changed since then though.

[Method]

You wanna hear something scary? I have a bottle of DMSO sitting on my lab bench right in front of me! :]

[Jason Farlander]

Just a minor interjection, the correct spelling is "scopolamine," not scopalamine or scopalimine. Scopolamine is a real drug, used medicinally to treat motion sickness, and used criminally as a date-rape drug or to aid in robberies - as high doses can induce a zombie-like state wherein the person affected becomes highly prone to suggestion while the drug is in effect and has trouble remembering anything that took place while influenced by the drug after the effect wears off.

Information here and here.

Presumably, gamma-scopolamine is an engineered variant with enhanced effects.

...carry on...

Edit: Actually, an interesting side question: If doubling a dose increases the power of the drug by 1, should *halving* a dose have a similar (reversed) effect?

This post has been edited by Jason Farlander: Jul 30 2004, 01:13 AM

[Necro Tech]

Just as a side note, doubling a dose increases the damage level by one. Third and subsequent doeses increase the power by one. With GS and nacrojet already at D they get the +1 power right off. Also remember that pepper punch can't do more than three boxes even if you get hit every turn unless the GM says so. Chemicals max out at base damage level +1 for total damage. Overdosing only happens at (body) doses and then only 1 additional box per body doses. Taking down the troll with Narco jet, easy. Killing a troll with Narcojet, approximately forever.

[RedmondLarry]

[Jason Farlander]

[Cain]

[RedmondLarry]

Jason, it says that a second dose stages up the damage level by one. It describes no alternative for when the damage is already at Deadly. What do you think a GM should do when the first dose is at Deadly and a second dose is received?

[Jason Farlander]

The exact same thing that happens when you stage *any* wound up from deadly stun... it inflicts a light physical wound (in addition to the stun)

This post has been edited by Jason Farlander: Jul 30 2004, 04:28 AM

[Necro Tech]

Thats not staging. If you get hit with a stun rod in meele combat and lose by 10 successes you are taking 14D I believe. If you lose by thirty the power just goes higher. Physical damage is the same way for ranged combat. You can't ever take more than 10 boxes (physical or stun) from any one hit.


Edit: Pretty much every example of staging is this way. Spells add to drain power over deadly, explosions just up the power to unsoakable, meele and ranged just up the power. There is no provision for beyond deadly unless the optional rule still exists for taking overdamage.

[BitBasher]

Jason is using the Deadlier Overdamage optional rule. Each 2 sucesses beyond deadly adds a box of damage.

[Jason Farlander]

Heh, forgot that was an optional rule. I like my games more.. lethal...er... I even used to apply damage TN mods to damage resistance rolls, which lasted exactly until one of the players bought his own copy of the core book. Suffice to say, the players werent happy.