 Help me understand guns better, It makes the game world better |
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 Aug 6 2004, 02:51 AM
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#1
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383  |
For those of you who are familiar with handgunnery....can you help me understand the effectiveness of 10mm ammunition?
How does 10mm compare to, say, .45 ACP? How does it compare to 9mm or .38? Thank you very much for your kind help and the benefit of your knowledge. I figure that the more background understanding I have the better I can work with RPG setting that involve firearms. |
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Aug 6 2004, 02:54 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Winston Salem, NC Member No.: 1,359 |
For great ingame and real-life info, go here to Raygun's Site. You can't beat it.
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Aug 6 2004, 04:46 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 5-March 03 From: Wouldn't you like to know? Member No.: 4,203 |
well to help a bit and instead of going into a long discussion about it basically when you have sizes like 9 mm, 10mm and the such thats just the metric version of our .44 .50
What i'm trying to say is the numbers are the diameter of the actual bullet. So the mm's work out just as is. But the .38 and such is in inches so a .50 is a half and inch the .44 is .44 of an inch. And yes a .44 is more powerful than a .45 even though the 45 has more bullet mass the powder charge is significantly less. Which is why I said I'd give you the simple reasoning behind the numbers. Stopping power and effectivness is determined by lots of mathmatical equasions. But what you want to look for in a good gun is mass and velocity and that will give you your foot pounds of impact. So to your question I believe a 10mm is only slightly more effective in stopping some one than a 9mm. then again it all depends on how good of a shot you are. Even a .22 can be deadly if you are a good/lucky shot, as a .44. Hope that helps now I need sleep. |
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Aug 6 2004, 06:28 AM
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#4
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Not always. Theres more than one type of .44 and .45 some .45's can have more muzzle energy than some types of .44's and vice versa.
Also from the first comparison chart I ran across the 10mm has potentially 20%-40% more muzzle energy than the 9mm 9x19 round, which is likely the one you are refrring to.
Things aren't that cut and dried. One size of ammo, .40 S&W can have weights ranging from 85 grains to 185(or more) grains of bullet weight going from 650 to 1350 feet per second. If you want to get accurate, then generalizations are bad. How much realism do you want, you asked about a VERY broad topic, try to narrow it a little, specifically what info are you looking for? |
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Aug 6 2004, 06:31 AM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It should also be noted, as many people have a tendency to do this, that muzzle energy is not a good indicator of potential lethality. Always remember that terminal ballistics is a complicated subject.
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Aug 6 2004, 06:40 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 17-November 03 From: Texas Member No.: 5,828 |
As far as understanding the effectiveness of 10mm ammo -- 10mm is, according to the people who love it, the most powerful practical autoloading handgun cartridge. 10mm Auto will outperform even the more common favorite, .45 ACP, in similar cartridges. From a practical standpoint, there are many more choices in .45, both in the weapons and the ammo. But for a real wrist breaking, hope-they-go-down-on-the-first-shot shooting, the 10mm is a pretty nasty cartridge. I only fired one once, and I couldn't really tell much difference between it an similar designed .45's, but I'm a pretty big guy -- it takes a lot of recoil to get my attention. I imagine that in SR (and this is basically what we use in our games, for flavor) most cartriges would be metrically ID'd, so the .40 S&W would be a 10mm S&W, and so on. We use mostly RL pistol cartriges, and mostly imaginary rifle rounds, like the 6.5mm UCAS that my Ares Alpha uses. Again, IMG, that's mostly for flavor. The reasoning: basically, you will see new rifle cartriges hit the market every few seasons at least, but pistol cartriges tend to be more stable, in my limited experience. (I've only followed ammo trends for about 7 or 8 years) |
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Aug 6 2004, 07:48 AM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Wound Ballistics
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness Tactical Briefs, full of good stuff, including a bunch of gelatin test results in the newest (lacks 10mm Auto, however) Terminal Ballistics, includes a table which allows you to compare some 10mm Auto loadings to .40 S&W, 9x19 If you really want to understand why one of these calibers may or may not be better than the other, I suggest you read through all, or at least most of it. If you get bored, stop reading, because that means you don't really want to know. Then you can just decide what sort of Damage Codes the different weapons have and never have to bother yourself with it. Short list of "9mm" cartridges: 9x19mm Luger, 9x18mm Makarov, 9x23mm Winchester/9mm Largo, 9x17mm Short/.380 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .357 SIG. Not as many .45s: .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum. 10mms are quite rare indeed, I can think of only the .40 S&W and the 10mm Auto -- dunno what the actual diameter of the .41 Remington Magnum is. A journalist's firearms glossary clarifies some confusing terms |
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Aug 6 2004, 08:52 AM
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#8
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Well, I was going to do a big, long write-up explaining each of these cartridges in detail, but then I ended up with so much info that it would probably just confuse everyone while giving them more information than they ever wanted to know. So here's the short version... Basically, there are two schools of thought when it comes to terminal ballistics: those that think light and fast bullets are the quickest way to stop a fight, and those who think that slow and heavy bullets are more likely to do the job. There's actually a third school that says fast and heavy is the best, but they're obviously right so no one really argues with them. The 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger, 9mm NATO, 9x19mm) is the top contender for the contemporary practical pistol cartridge when it comes to light and fast. In its original loading, it fired a 124 grain FMJ at 1,150 feet-per-second from the 4" barrel of a Luger pistol, for 364 foot pounds of energy. That was in 1902. Today its' possible to get a bit more power out of it, and newer bullet designs can maximize the damage potential. The plus side to the 9mm Para is that it's a relatively small cartridge, so it's possible to cram a lot of them (15-19) into the magazine of a full-sized pistol. It is certainly capable of doing what it's designed for. On the other side of the spectrum, you have the .45 ACP. Its original loading fired a 230 grain FMJ (almost twice the mass of the 9mm) at 855 fps from the 5" barrel of a model 1911 pistol, for 373 fpe. It just barely edges out the 9mm in terms of kinetic energy, but the much larger bullet tends to have more of an effect when it hits people. On paper, the 9mm should be king. But statistically, it isn't. The big .45 bullet just seems to have more effect in stopping fights quickly. 12-14 rounds is about the max you can stuff into a through-grip magazine. The 10mm (also called 10x25mm, 10mm Auto, 10mm Norma) is a very powerful automatic handgun cartridge that was developed to compete, and actually surpass in terms of ballstic performance, other common cartridges like the 9mm Parabellum and .45 Automatic Colt Pistol. It's probably the most powerful of the practical automatic handgun cartridges, meaning that, assuming some training, most human beings should be able to handle it. Obviously it has a smaller bullet diameter than the .45 ACP (bullet diameter is actually .400" = 10.16mm), but bullet weights do overlap on the high end (135-200 grains), and the 10mm is capable of launching those bullets much faster, up to 1,350 fps, where the .45 ACP is stuck around 1150 fps at +P loadings with light bullets for its caliber. While the 10mm Auto is very powerful, it's also a relatively long cartridge, which limits its ability to fit into a grip frame that will be comfortable to most users. Because of this, a shortened version of the 10mm Auto was developed by Smith & Wesson for the FBI in 1989. It's a little less powerful, but the .40 S&W splits the difference between the 9mm Para and the .45 ACP nicely, allowing a high capacity with decent terminal effects. The .40 S&W has pretty much taken over the police handgun market in the US. you can generally fit 11-15 rounds of either 10mm Auto or .40 S&W into a through-grip magazine. Last but not least, the lowly .38 Special is a rimmed revolver cartridge the was developed by Smith & Wesson in 1902 for the Military & Police revolver. The revolver is still made by S&W today, marketed as the Model 10. Compared to the rest of the cartridges mentioned, the .38 is the lightweight in terms of energy and terminal performance. Its original load dumped a 158 grain lead round-nosed bullet at 890 fps for 277 fpe. Works well in small hold-out revolvers, and can even be fired through .357 Magnum revolvers for light-recoiling practice. It's well known for its accuracy potential, but I think that is probably more a product of the gun firing it than the cartridge. Okay. Maybe that was the not-so-short version. More info on terminal ballistics can be found here. And all the other links Aus beat me to posting go here > <. The .40 S&W is the only widely-used .400" bullet cartridge, the 10mm Auto comes a distant second with the .400 Cor-Bon, .40 Super and the other .40 hot rods far behind. Actual diameter of the .41 Magnum bullet is... .410". |
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Aug 6 2004, 11:24 AM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Wow. That's weird, since .44 Remington Magnum is .429". ;) |
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Aug 6 2004, 01:49 PM
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#10
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Im partial to the 12.7 mm DE. I have mostly just taken to learning to convert everything to metric for sizes, as it makes sense.
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Aug 7 2004, 03:46 AM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
And if I didn't have to worry about pesky things like physics, I'd carry a 406mm battleship rifle. A car sized projectile will ruin anyones day.
Notice the the 10x25 is rated as the largest practical autoloading cartridge. They .50 AE is for people who feel the need to compensate for something. |
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Aug 7 2004, 07:04 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: 27-January 03 From: Kentucky, USA Member No.: 3,958 |
How about the .454 Casull? I know that's going into revolver rounds, now, instead of autos, but I'm curious. Interesting thing is that it's apparently the smallest caliber recommended for handguns if you're travelling in bear country, according to some guys I knew in Alaska.
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Aug 7 2004, 07:17 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 673 Joined: 30-March 04 Member No.: 6,206 |
If that's the smallest, what about the largest? What's the heaviest you can get with revolvers? The Smith and Wesson .500?
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Aug 7 2004, 10:53 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
What about it? Firing a 300 grain jacketed flat point at 1625 fps, it produces 1759 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. That's roughly twice the energy you get with a .44 Remington Magnum, and still significantly more power than you get with a .45-70 Govt with a similar barrel length. With controlled expansion (I'd assume that's what you get with a JFP at those velocities) and a decent sectional density, I'd expect that to penetrate deep enough to be able to kill some pretty large and dangerous critters. It's definitely in the "must compensate for something" territory for most uses, however. And yes, AFAIK the .500S&W is the most powerful (most muzzle energy) revolver produced in large numbers. But it's not like that's some sort of absolute limit. You can keep making them bigger and bigger until people's wrists start snapping and they can't keep them level anymore. |
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Aug 7 2004, 07:17 PM
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#15
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I suppose if someone wanted to be an absolute crackhead they could machine a 3 or 4 shot .50bmg revolver, the size of a small child. That travels into "break the small bones of your hand" category.
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Aug 7 2004, 08:05 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Winston Salem, NC Member No.: 1,359 |
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Aug 7 2004, 10:30 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah. Birdman Weapon Systems. The same firm that gave us the Homeboy Nyte Sytes, the 300 round Uzi magazine, the Mountain Dew shotgun, and the thermonuclear .50 BMG ammunition. It's all real. Yup.
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Aug 8 2004, 02:48 AM
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#18
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Well, if they intend to use it to defend against things human-sized, that is probably true. But if we're thinking about these things in the context of Shadowrun, the .50 AE becomes a lot more practical as a defensive pistol cartridge. These days, the .50 AE makes a decent cartridge for handgun hunting and defense against bears, cougars, and other dangerous game found in some places on the globe. The Desert Eagle pistol it was designed for is mostly a show piece, the quintessential BFG. But it was designed for the sport of silhouette shooting, which requires a rather powerful cartridge capable of knocking over heavy steel targets at considerable range. Not the most practical of pieces, but it certainly does have some uses. In another gun, say a revolver, the .50 AE becomes a bit more practical as a defensive cartridge.
You likely could get away with less, but the .454 provides some insurance against the big bears and it provides it in the same kind of package you're likely to find the chambered for the .44 Magnum. Lots of energy, lots of pressure, lots of muzzle blast, lots of recoil. One nice thing about the .454 Casull is that it is based on the .45 Colt cartridge, which means that guns chambered for it can also fire the .45 Colt. Less energy, but far more fun to shoot if you're planning on shooting a lot, i.e. practice.
In a production revolver, yes. Though Magnum Research (the guys who make the Desert Eagle) also makes some revolvers chambered for rifle cartridges, such as the .450 Marlin, which will get awfully close to .500 Mag ballistics, possibly beyond with proper handloading. Grain of salt time... There have also been some novelty revolvers that have been chambered for massive cartridges like the .600 Nitro Express and .50 BMG. Not really designed for real use, mostly to say it's been done. Though this is linked from the Birdman site (full of joke guns), this one is an actual, for-real .50 BMG bolt-action pistol that was manufactured by Maadi-Griffin. I used to have pictures of a woman firing it somewhere. |
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Aug 8 2004, 03:00 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
What sort of muzzle velocity can you reasonably expect with .50BMG from a barrel that short? That doesn't look like more than 6", although that should still be quite enough to make it quite unpleasant for both the shooter and the shootee.
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Aug 8 2004, 03:22 AM
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#20
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Well, following the not-so-scientific standard formula of 20 fps per inch of barrel (Understanding Firearm Ballistics, p.126), it works out to about 2,450 fps from a 6" barrel. This general rule was designed to apply to much smaller cartridges (.30-06, specifically), so I can't tell you how accurate it would be in this case. I've never seen any ballistics info for the pistol.
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Aug 8 2004, 03:31 AM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'd also expect it to break down as the barrel gets really short, ie that chopping down from 26" to 16" wouldn't matter quite as much as the next 10" down to 6". Although, even if the velocity goes down to as "low" as ~2000fps for 600gr bullets, that'd still be twice the muzzle energy of the .500S&W.
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Aug 8 2004, 04:56 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 5-March 03 From: Wouldn't you like to know? Member No.: 4,203 |
I don't think it would be humanly possible to fire that .50 BMG pistol. the rifles used to fire that round are nearly 30 pounds and have one hellova muzzle break on them and they still kick harder than a mule on PCP. If it don't break you wrist its definately going to severly injure you hand.
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Aug 8 2004, 06:15 AM
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#23
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Those rifles you speak of are generally described to recoil no more than a 12-gauge pump shotgun with standard 2 3/4" loads. While that's no tiny amount of recoil, it's not something I would call "a mule on PCP" either.
I used to have pictures of a young woman (probably no more that 20 years old) firing it. Given, she could have been firing down-loaded ammunition, but I don't think that that would make the most effective demonstration of the equipment. A couple of things you have to consider about it is that the pistol is entirely made of steel. It's got to weigh at least 12-14 pounds, I would say. Also, that muzzle brake is enormous. It's going to eat quite a bit of recoil. Now, I'm not saying that the thing would be a pleasure to shoot. The shockwave from the muzzle blast alone would be unpleasant enough to put a person off shooting it more than a few times. But I seriously doubt that it would cause injury on the level you're suggesting. I'll see if I can dig up those pictures. |
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Aug 8 2004, 03:59 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Winston Salem, NC Member No.: 1,359 |
HOLY CRAP!! Raygun, you are saying that gun is real? I put it up as a joke to see how many I could catch, and it looks like I just got caught! :wobble:
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Aug 8 2004, 05:06 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
Rifle calibers have pretty long burning powders, so yeah, they would have a sharp drop in pressure from all the powder that's burning outside the barrel instead of pushing the bullet forward. It'd be one hell of a fireball though. :) The fun of pistol calibers in longer barrels is the powder is mostly done by the end of even a 16" barrel. My 45 with 16" barrel has no flash, and barely any noise at all. (Even less in 3 months...) Contrast that with a .22 magnum, which is a decent varmint caliber from a rifle, but when used in the tiny little mini-revolvers, it's more fireball than effect. It was intended for a rifle role. You know, I'm sure there's ballistic differences for .223/5.56 out there in 24/20/16/14.5/7" barrels, probably on AR15.com somewhere. Probably give a better idea of real velocity loss. |
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