 Goblinization to Dwarf, Canon? |
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 Nov 17 2004, 10:05 AM
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#1
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Free Spirit  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920  |
I always thought the only way to be an elf or dwarf was to be born that way.
Is it possible to become part-dwarf? |
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Nov 17 2004, 10:19 AM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 26-April 04 Member No.: 6,284 |
I thought you could never be part-anything, that the races were kept magicly distinct.
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Nov 17 2004, 10:40 AM
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#3
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And you've been right. :)
Not according to canon. |
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Nov 17 2004, 10:49 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Mixed human/metahuman parentage always creates either a human or a metahuman baby, no "hybrids".
But there is the chance that a troll or ork is born in human form and goblinizes in puberty (theoretically, genetic analysis should show that the baby is in fact a metahuman whose "goblin" phenotype has not yet been expressed). IIRC it is said somewhere that goblinization is becoming rarer compared to birth in metahuman form. |
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Nov 17 2004, 12:22 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-May 04 Member No.: 6,308 |
There are, however mixed metahuman metavarients. The new Seattle sourcebook (page 72) says the leader of the Black Rains (who's half Japanese) is half Ork, half Oni. As far as I know, there's no rules for it, and I really don't think there needs to be, but it was there.
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Nov 17 2004, 12:24 PM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Right, it still happenes every now and again but now that the races are set, regular births are more common. No one goblinized as dwarves or elves, they were born that way. probably due to the fact it would be easier for a human woman to give birth to those smaller forms than the larger blockier orks and trolls
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Nov 17 2004, 02:47 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Just Johnny: That may just be a matter of coloration rather than gamestats.
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Nov 17 2004, 04:12 PM
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#8
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Or it's possible they are just saying that to illustrate his difficult childhood because his parents were one of each. He may be one or the other with only an odd coloring as stated above.
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Nov 17 2004, 04:48 PM
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#9
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
One of my NPCs that my PCs hang out with a lot is described as being "half-elf". She is totally human in every way, but one of her parents is an elf, and she's a major proponent of metahuman rights. But there is absolutely nothing elven about her, game mechanically or in fluff, except one parent. Also, I would imagine that that gives her higher-than-average chance of having an elven child, especially if she hooks up with another elf.
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Nov 17 2004, 04:52 PM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
A good way to reflect this type of thing is with Edges like Night Vision, or some of the SURGE effects.
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Nov 17 2004, 09:30 PM
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#11
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Just wondered if I missed something.
The goblininzation to a part-dwarf is in the short story Unmaking the Man on the official shadowrun site. Kind of makes it canon, or another instance of silly stuff that made it's way to print. (If published on the official site counts as 'print'.) Makes me wonder why authors feel the need to bend (break) the rules and why it isn't halted when it is not integral to the story. (Or even if it is integral.) |
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Nov 17 2004, 09:34 PM
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#12
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I think one of us is totally not understanding that part. I don't think the character goblinized into a "part-dwarf" but had to live like a dwarf does. |
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Nov 17 2004, 09:36 PM
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#13
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Artistic License, tisoz. It happens.
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Nov 17 2004, 10:25 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I think that might have been a specific case of SURGE, which is the only damn timea normal human could become an elf or a dwarf. Have to check again, though.
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Nov 17 2004, 10:26 PM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
No, the rules in SURGE only allow goblinization from human to trog, or metahuman to metatype. This could be an exception, as such things do tend to happen.
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Nov 18 2004, 12:21 AM
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#16
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I had to check again, too when I saw later in the story it was due to SURGE. It is as Herald stated. |
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Nov 18 2004, 12:45 AM
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#17
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Echo that. Look at the novel "Raven and Wolf" and then try to figure out the magical or combat mechanics. IIRC, its been said around here that the things that take place in stories don't always sinq up with game mechanics. **cough**Ryan Mercury**cough** But if you're the GM, its your call. The character's background can say anything, pretty much. If that's what the player wants, do the SURGE/Edges/Flaws thing and make the guy short. |
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Nov 18 2004, 10:07 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Is that the story collection with Wolfgang Kies and Kid Stealth? Those stories were written before the rules and universe of SR were fully defined, hence Wolf's strange spirit magic or green orcs... |
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Nov 18 2004, 10:34 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
An excellent way of handling it, IMO. It's like my ork character that has elven parents. Ah…the joys of giving the folks the dark secret flaw. |
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Nov 18 2004, 11:17 AM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
Hmm, would this be referred to as "downsizing"?
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Nov 18 2004, 03:10 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Uh, ES, you DO know that elves can't give birth to orks and vice versa, right? Like, ever? If you had an elf and ork couple, and they have a kid, then the kid is gonna be the mother's race.
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Nov 18 2004, 03:19 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I don't recall the rules every saying that they couldn't, only some fluff text stating that it's never been (publically) recorded. Big difference between the two.
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Nov 18 2004, 03:22 PM
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#23
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
All I know is, I never want to see a birth video of a dwarf mother having a bouncy baby trogg...
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Nov 18 2004, 03:26 PM
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#24
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Maybe there are half-races but no PC can take them as a race.
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Nov 18 2004, 04:35 PM
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#25
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
On the flipside, maybe there's no half races at all! I like that better! :D |
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Nov 18 2004, 04:40 PM
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#26
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
What, you advocate making SR different from Other Game? Oh noes! We can't have that.
But seriously, the info in SR3 is pretty clear that there are NO half-races. Of course, SURGE does mess things up a bit, but not enough to really say there are half-races, just people of one metatype with some other metatype components thrown in. (Tusks, dermal plating, pointy ears, etc.) |
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Nov 18 2004, 06:42 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
A fair point. |
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Nov 18 2004, 09:09 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
You've said this before, and I've challenged it before, and I'm still waiting for you to produce a cite that definitely supports it. The vague reference you provided last time could be read (and, I think, is supposed to be read) as saying that an elf+elf couple would not have ork children, and that an ork+ork couple would not have elven children, but not saying anything about elf+ork couples. SR2, on the other hand, explicitly said that elf+ork couples almost always had ork children, and made no reference to which parent was which. While that's out of date information, given the choice between two valid readings of a newer rule, one of which contradicts older text, and the other of which doesn't, I'll take the reading that doesn't. |
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Nov 19 2004, 12:46 AM
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#29
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
Don't forget that parents of two different metatypes can have human children and if one parent is human and one not, the children will mostly be human.
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Nov 19 2004, 02:08 AM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Sorry John, wasn't paying attention. A citation, eh? I have not the time right now to check out all the possile sources I can think of, but from my notes the closest I can give you is page 69 in Shadowtech, which we both know isn't much use at all. What's your source, by-the-by? 'twould perhaps be a boon when I re-do the metagenetics page. |
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Nov 19 2004, 04:47 AM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
I'm getting it from SR2 p.34, which says, "Crossbreed attempts between the elf/dwarf group and the ork/troll group nearly always produce a goblinized expression."
Presumably, "nearly always" isn't explainable by almost all of the elf+ork matings being a female ork and a male elf. I don't have Shadowtech, unfortunately. Last time this came up (Polaris's fragging half-elf thread, I think it was), you referred me to the metagenetics section in SotA:2063, and I think I found the specific lines you were talking about (shadowtalk at the top of p.12?), but, as I said, I think that what they're saying is that elf+elf matings don't produce orks, not that elven mothers can never bear orkish children, even when the father is an ork. (And, sorry, I probably came off nastier than I intended in my last post.) |
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Nov 19 2004, 06:19 AM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Could be. I'll look it up tomorrow. The Shadowtech reference is about how there's no record of a troll being born to an elf mother and a few other tidbits. Like I said, not exactly useful.
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Nov 19 2004, 03:15 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Not to mention that "nearly always" means that the opposite does happen, and has happened enough times for it to be a significant statistic. Otherwise it would have been "(will) always" or "always happens except in extremely rare circumstances." |
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