Intiate Grades ... who's the big gun?, Oddball, but. Options

[Johnny Reb]

So, the Immortal Elves usually aren't statted up, do huge magic, yadda yadda yadda. Talk I've seen around here puts them at initiate grades not just in the double-digits, but the *high* double-digits. Like, fifty, sixty, eighty levels of initiation.

That hurts my widdle head.

So, I did some digging around today while bored and found a few things.

Great Dragons are, by definition, level 10 Initiates or higher. How much higher isn't known, but I don't think as high as the things I've seen here in the past discuss. Not even close. I'd think 10-15 for all save the Big D and maybe Lung.

Mr Darke, said to be Harlequin's equal, is a 6th level Initiate. Even I think that's a bit low and would guess him to be closer to 10, myself.

The Black Lodge, supposedly *the* be-all end-all of magic hoohah has seven people in the ten and up league, capped with the grand master at about grade 15. I'd wager him to be stronger then Harlequin, personally.

The Blood Mage Gestalt has an initiate grade, when combined, of 30. This is known to dwarf *any* other magical being in the Sixth World, and by a good margin. I'd think that 15 to 20 would be the *utter* max for, say, Dunklezhan.

Anybody else have a view on this, yay or nay? I know the published dragons are all quite a bit less than this, but, everyone has their own take on things.

-- Johnny Reb

[FrostyNSO]

I've noticed a lot of people (especially on this bored) think that immortal elves and great dragons can smack down God himself.

I have a neat little pdf on Big D if you want it. Email me Frostynso@aol.com

[DrJest]

My only comment on this is that I played Shadowrun regularly for several years and finished as a Grade 5 Initiate; and yet somehow I'm the weak sister round here, where discussions (especially regarding physads) assume that you will initiate up to around grade 10 in a relatively short time.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

I think all of those numbers should be doubled, if not tripled.

If one was to have all of the metamagics in SR they'd be around 20, and that does not seem beyond the realm of possibility.

But, OTOH, I really think that IEs and GDs use magic more like ED and their abilities don't really transfer clearly. More to the point, since I'll never stat them I really don't think it matters.

[Johnny Reb]

[toturi]

OK, first of all, the Blood Mage Gestalt sucks for a magical group for the simple reason that the IOND has 500 guys and even if all of them are level 1 initiates each, they're still going to kick major ass.

I think that most GDs and IEs are in the level 10-15 range, with exceptional ones at 15-20.

[Kagetenshi]

I don't think it's reasonable for them to be that low. That's only what, about five to seven hundred karma? Even assuming one karma point per year during the downcycle, they'd have the stuff coming out their ears!

The IEs, at least. And Ghostwalker.

~J

[toturi]

That is assuming they'd never Hand of God.

[Kagetenshi]

Even if they do, they lose everything they have at that time, which probably wouldn't be more than one initiation's worth.

~J

[CoalHeart]

What's the big deal? Initiate grade means jack shit.

Wether you have magic 6 or 120. You can still only cast spells up to the force you learned it at.

Sure you can cast higher force spells without physical drain. Buuut. I'd like to see you 'learn' a spell that high, and not to mention avoid knocking yourself out anyways. Skipping over the GM fiat of NPCs knowing any force the GM wants. Even then I somehow doubt that they'll have high double digit Will or Charisma to avoid drain.

Yes I would say that some of the metamagics that scale with grade would be impressive. You could astrally blind the hell out of someone by faking your Aura through Masking to be akin to staring at the sun with the help of binoculars. And the area of affect for their combat spells would be pretty mighty. A 20 meter wide fireball is pretty dam impressive, but kind of lacking if it still only has 6 power.

They 'could' have dozens of Foci, or Foci of incredulus power bound to them. That's far more impressive than initiate grade.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Lindt]

And whos to say that all they did was pump their init. grade? Karma goes fast when your gaining knowlage about the 6th world.

[GunnerJ]

The Magic attribute is calculated into Spell Pool. Higher Magic = greater Spell Pool.

[Kagetenshi]

Assuming a point of karma per year, Harlequin could hit Grade 60 with karma to spare in spades. That’s not even counting initiation before the end of the Fourth World.

Edit: No, he wouldn’t. He’d be about a thousand years short and end up somewhere in the upper forties. Nonetheless, I consider that to be an unrealistically low karma earning rate, and he probably would have been in at least the high teens by the end of the Fourth World.

~J

[toturi]

You forget you do not gain Karma for going to the laundromat. Do you suppose that after a certain limit, Harlequin needs to save the world every year to keep gaining karma? I would think that sometimes there is nothing for him to do except watch the centuries roll by and not a single karma to gain. So yes, 100 years and only 10 karma is not impossible from my point of view.

You think that Harley's fixer calls him up every week and says,"Hoi chummer, the Horrors are here again. Need you to meet the Johnson at the Citadel"?

[Kagetenshi]

Normal people somehow manage to improve their skills. Why not Harlequin?

Besides, if there's one thing IEs are good at, it's getting themselves into interesting situations.

~J

[toturi]

Becuase he's not normal?

[Kagetenshi]

Exactly. He's getting into hazardous situations much more than Joe Peasant Farmer, but Joe still manages to end up somewhat better at farming than when he began.

~J

[Austere Emancipa...]

So then the reason why he is (and was) a powerful éminence grise, a legendary fighter and magician, is because he's an extremely slow learner and has a tendency to just lounge about doing nothing, and that goes for the rest of the IEs and GDs as well?

[toturi]

Do you have any idea of the type of things that could be classed as a challenge to him? I do not know about ED, but in SR, if he managed to gain that much karma, he would have died and risen on the third day to atone for the sins of man every few years.

He is Mr No-Stat. Anything that is even a challenge to him needs to be Equal No Stat. And that gets him only 1-2 Karma. Even if he did overcome Mr Equally No Stat Challenge regularly(which is impossible since the next Mr ENSC needs to be better to provide the same level of challenge), there would be nothing left for the other IEs or GDs to do.

[Kagetenshi]

During the downtime? With little magic available, and what there is coming like blood from a stone? Quite a few things.

~J

[toturi]

And Mr Blood from Stone has less mana to work with too. Mana level remains equal for both sides.

[Fortune]

I'm still trying to figure out where Johnny Reb gets the 'fact' that Darke is said to be even in the same league as Harlequin, let alone his equal.

[Halabis]

Well, Harly has displayed abilities from like 3 high level adept classes in ED right? Just add up all those, then add up the number of Grades of initiation he would need to learn most of the good metamagics in the 6th world that arent covered in the ED classes. That would probably give him a grade around 30-40. Remember ED classes are roughly equal to initiation grades in level, and that Harley wouldn't be initiating during the downcycle.

[Ol' Scratch]