How powerful is magic in Shadowrun? Options

[emo samurai]

As opposed to AD&D. Everyone in AD&D has enough magic items to be talismongers in their own right, and it's common for mid-level mages to toss around bigass fireballs. Does Shadowrun even compare?

[Ancient History]

Not really, but then Shadowrun magic is designed to make sense, while D&D was inexpertly ripped from Jack Vance novels. ;)

More seriously, Shadowrun is a very low-powered world compared to any Dungeons & Dragon setting you care to name. There are some magicians with powers comparable to Elminster or a Dragon King, but they're damn few and far between. It's not like Harlequin and Ehran are gonna be squaring off in Seattle and throwing small orbital bodies at one another, because magic has a price in Shaodwrun. Casting a spell can kill you. Or open the way for the Horrors to kill you.

[Mr Cjelli]

Things D&D spell casters can do that SR spell casters cannot:

* Bring the dead back to life
* Teleport
* Alter time

Of course, SR spell casters don't need material components (or gesticulation, or speech) to cast spells. In terms of overall power, you can do absurd, fantastic things with both games.

As for magic items, since foci require you to pay in karma in order to get any benefit, and because (generally speaking) only awakened characters can use them, magical items are more powerful in D&D.

[Liper]

in SR you're not limited to some stupid "you can only cast soo many spells a day, even if they are all lv 1...."

DnDs magic system never really translated well from novel to game if you ask me.

[Catsnightmare]

I still like how one player I know described the difference to a SR newbie.

D&D mage: (weak whiney voice) "I've cast all my powerful spells and didn't memorize the right spell I need. Now I'm useless since I can't wear armor or use badass weapons and have a measly few hit points and no hit bonus."

Shadowrun mage: (pumped-up screaming maniac voice) "FUCK YOU! I can wear as much armor as I want, use any weapon I want, be as tough as the street sam, and I can keep casting spells till I either pass out or die. YEAH!"

:rotfl:

[mmu1]

[Snow_Fox]

D&D is more appropriately ripped off form Tolkien and Fritz Leiber.

Sure with a real high game players havev lots of magic, but the averge or beginer games the SR spell slinger has a lot of advantages over a D&D mage. They can develop their combat skills as easily as any fighter and are not limited to casting a spell only once before looking for a spell book.

In D&D I would play a thief or Ft/Thief almost exclusively. In SR I would play spell slingers almost exclusively.

[Ancient History]

[Tanka]

[Drac]

What if Shadowrun magic can't destroy mountains is because the 6th World is just beginning and the mana level is too low?

[Tanka]

Um... Rephrase that question with some proper grammar.

Hold on, I'll try to translate and guess...

"What if Shadowrun magic can't destroy mountains because the 6th World is just beginning and the mana level is too low?"

Is that just an errant "is" in there? If so, k...

Anyway.

Even in ED, you couldn't just pop a mountain. Granted; you could put a city in a bottle, but you had to be really powerful to do so.

[hobgoblin]

that is unless your a dragon and is packing a ungodly power foci :silly:

you can in theory destroy a mountain in SR, you just have to figure out its barrier rating first :smokin:

oh, and lets never forget the great ghost dance...

still, the d&d spells pr day system is one of those things that never realy made sense. but the sorceror in 3.x is interesting as a way of "fixing" it.

hell, they even fix the spellcasting in armor "problem". atleast one is no longer baned from picking up armor or weapon, its just that the armor gives a spell failure chance and the weapons need a feat ;)

hmm, given the de-cyberd technology of SR4, im starting to wonder if not the mage have become even more "uber". no essence cost for smartlink and so on...

[Eyeless Blond]

[eidolon]

Comparing the two games' magic systems is silly. They're nothing like one another. In fact, neither are the games. To get a good feel for either, play a spell caster in both. (Or if you're decent at gleaning feel and ability from just reading it, do that.)

Each system's magic fits well in that particular system.

[Eyeless Blond]

IMO I don't think the D&D magic system works that well even in D&D. :P Anyone read Complete Arcane? Check out the new Warlock class in that book; it's a far better sorcerer than the sorcerer. D&D Psionics are better than the D&D arcane magic classes too, IMO, so long as you run with transparency or just outright replace the later with the former.

[eidolon]

Ah, but are you:

a: Playing D&D to play D&D; not to pick apart its quirks and lack of perfection, but to enjoy the game as D&D

or

b: Looking at the system as a big theoretical math equation like most DSers seem to look at everything; picking it apart until you can't enjoy it for all the complaining about how it "isn't as good as X or Y"?

;)

Personally, I don't play game systems to compare them to other game systems. There are enough games out there that if I don't like something about one (say, if I didn't like the D&D magic system) that I can simply play something I like instead.

[Vaevictis]

[mmu1]

[Liper]

[mmu1]

[nezumi]

Funny, while D&D mages get some wicked firepower compared to SR mages in the end, I still feel like SR magic is overpowered. But then again, in D&D people can also take twenty or thirty arrows to the head and still act normally.

[Pendaric]

I have to say am a real fan of the SR3 magic system.
D&D, AD&D and D&D (again) have a great feel if you can hack the length of time to build up your level. Starting high lvl makes you a shade harder than a coffin nail if you a mage. I'll go so far as to say D20 is alright for D&D.
But
would they 'please' get their mitts of other games. Many of which had great innovative rule system that added to their core background fiction and world feel.
A full magician in SR is one of the most powerful characters in a group. Think artillery not infantry, often very versatile to if not over loaded with combat spells and with a bit of imagination in there use (which ironically playing a D&D mage gives you).
The character style with standing of course.
Hence the SR proverb, "Geek the wizzer first."
There are aspected magicians of course.....hmm :wink:

[Drac]

Wow tanka, a misplaced "is" and you make me sound illiterate...
How anal can you get?

[Shanshu Freeman]

[Drac]

tanka said - "Granted; you could put a city in a bottle, but you had to be really powerful to do so."

Who puts a semi-colon after "Granted" like that?!?

I'm just pointing out that this is the internet and mistakes are unavoidable.

Geez.

[Ancient History]

Ancient hands out the swastika-and-dictionary armbands

Yes, yes, we're all impressed by your grammery. Now go to bed.

[Wiz In Red]

I gotta go with AH on this one (surprise, someone agreeing with AH). If I wanted a grammar lesson, I'd go to my UMUC page and do some of the extra credit exercises. Get off the Ridilin and relax.

[mfb]

[Feshy]

[hobgoblin]

and on top of that a hell of a heal spell in case there have been some time between death and resurrection ;)

however, there should be no problem finding the soul. just get a ancestor spirit to guide your way to the metaplane ;)

[Tanka]

Drac: I don't read many of your posts because I don't see you posting much in any threads I read. So, I was simply trying to figure things out if you were (oh, I don't know) ADD or didn't have English as your primary language. It's a simple mistake anyone can make.

It wasn't anal, it was me trying to figure out what the hell you were asking. Since it didn't make sense in its natural form (with an extra "is" in there), I guessed at it and apparently got it right. And struck a nerve.

If I meant to be rude, I'd've been rude. Instead, I tried to decipher so others could also try to answer the query. Instead I get flamed for simply trying to read a statement that didn't make sense.

Good job.

[FrankTrollman]

In an effort to drag this thread back on topic, D&D Magic is not inspired by Jack Vance. It is justified by Jack Vance, which is somewhat different. D&D Magic is based on the way magic works in table top wargames, because that's what D&D started as.

Chainmail originally had just guys with swords running around, and the dragons and wizards were added afterwards. The wizards were given the ability to do something special a limited number of times in the battle, and when it was converted into a role playing game, that magic system carried over.

Jack Vance, in his Dying Earth books, has a magic system based on old fairy tales. That is each use of magic has to be established early in the story, and then can be used once later on. Like how Yeveshka gets a magic comb that can turn into a forest, and when chased by Baba Yaga she throws it behind her and a forest appears. When it came time for Gygax to justify having magic the way Arneson had written it, he was forced to go to Vance as it was the only literary source he could find that seemed to work like that.

As to the telative power of the two, it's not a meaningful question. D&D magic, such as it is balanced at all, is balanced only against its effects on battles and exploration (the things the game is concerned with). Epically powerful magical effects such as the ability to assemble anything you can think of at will are handed out willy nilly because they don't really matter in the context of people running around hitting each other with sticks. Shadowrun magic is geared primarily towards not changing the world beyond recognition. Magic is forbidden from doing anything that you couldn't do with sufficiently advanced science and enough energy input.

A single person able to do D&D magic would destroy any semblance of an economy that existed before his entrance. The ability to create iron or water is pretty small scale on a battlemap, but sucker punches the entire system of human interaction and labor expenditures like you wouldn't believe.

-Frank

[eidolon]

Great post Frank.

[TheNarrator]

Agreed.

Just to give an example of what Frank is talking about: I have a friend who loves to find new and interesting uses for D&D spells, especially ways to make lower level spells do far more than most people would expect. He likes to say that he can take anything out with 3rd level spells. (Things such as using Shrink Item and Launch Item to hurl pebbles that turn into boulders across a battlefield, etc.)

But this friend of mine's great love is the Fabricate Spell. With this spell, you can create anything you have the raw materials and appropriate Craft skill to make in almost no time at all. And with various Wall of _____ spells, a D&D mage can conjure most raw materials on equally short notice. With enough castings of Wall of Iron, Fabricate, and a high Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) skill, a D&D mage could probably create the skeletal superstructure of a skyscraper in a matter of minutes. In D&D-land, that's neat but not really game breaking: a skyscraper doesn't help you in a fight much. In Shadowrun, the ability to magically create a skyscraper in minutes would have a massive effect on the economy and send the whole 6th World into chaos.

You should have seen his face after he found the Wall of Salt spell in Sandstorm, the desert setting guide. Salt's valuable stuff (particularly in a pseudo-medieval setting), and if you could conjure huge piles of it and then go around selling it (without flooding the market and wreaking the price) you'd get rich way faster than if you did Shadowruns (or went crawling through dungeons fighting monsters for their loot).

On the other hand, you have to be an 11th level wizard in D&D to have a spell with the killing power of Manabolt (available at character creation), and it's a lot easier to make your typical D&D saving throw than to succeed rolling Willpower vs. an SR mage's Sorcery plus maximum Spell Pool. On a personal level, there are many SR3 spells that are far scarier than their D&D equivalents.

[Drac]

I loathe nitpickers, that's all. Especially faux innocent ones nitpicking over NOTHING.
Btw, is there an "Ignore" feature on here like in Irc chat?

[Glyph]

Shadowrun mages start out both more powerful and more versatile. They have no weapon or armor restrictions, can use healing spells, don't need a high level spell to enter the astral plane, and can use their magical abilities pretty much at will. Like most shadowrun characters, they are the equivalent of mid-to-high level D&D characters.

They are less powerful at the very high end, but they can potentially be more powerful in relationship to other characters in the game. Magic simply has less of an upper limit, especially in SR4, which caps everything else. In D&D, the high level fighter has advantages, and magic items, of his own. In Shadowrun, mundane characters can be left behind when it becomes a high-Karma game.

[Shanshu Freeman]

[Zeel De Mort]

[Aku]

also, don't forget about dnd's casting times. You've got the one turn spell,t he one round spell, minute spells, etc etc. In SR, everything can be done within 3 seconds.

[Tanka]

[hobgoblin]

[mfb]

[Apathy]

:rotfl: :grinbig: :rotfl: :twirl: :rotate: :D

[Shanshu Freeman]

[Tanka]

[Drac]

Holy crap would somebody shoot him? Seriously.

[hobgoblin]

if being anal is a shooting offence in here, we would among other things go after the gunbunnies of this place. lets just say its not a tempting idea :silly:

[Tanka]

Gunbunnies, rules lawyers, holier-than-thou "my houserule is more important than your canon", those claiming that one edition far surpasses the other and their strict refusal to let other people form their own opinions...

They'd all have bullet holes by now.

However, it all makes for more entertaining discourse.

Drac, if I may suggest we both move on with our lives. I made a mistake, and you took it wrongly. Both of us have no reason to hate for one simple post. (Or was it two? Three? Oh, hell, I don't know. Either way, it's no reason to want someone dead. Unless, of course, you're a Nazi. And we all know Nazis get beat down by zombies, ninja and pirates. Do you want to get a beatdown from a Zombie Ninja Pirate? I know I don't.)

[Kyoto Kid]

[Grinder]

[Grinder]

[Tanka]

Already did, Grinder.

City in a Bottle, anyone?

[Grinder]

Oh, i see. Simply overread it.

That's one of the coolest spells out there :)

[Tanka]

It's not too shabby, but I don't particularly see it being used seriously in a game.

[hobgoblin]

hmm, by the sound of it its in the same class as those instant dwellings found in d&d, only way up there :smokin:

[Tanka]

No, it's actually the opposite of that.

Take a city, put it in a bottle.

City in a Bottle.

[fistandantilus4....]

...and with ED spells you can blow up mountains and bring back the dead.

Call Forth the Maelstrom
Journey to Life

And since there are NPC's from that era in SR it should be possible to do both.

Really you could just say that the Ghost Dance was a big nasty death magic ritual CAll Forth the Maelstrom spell.
So the moral of the story is to go Mindprobe (natch Kyoto) Harlequin, get a ritual group together, and hold a country hostage. :D

[Oracle]

The Immortal Elves and the Great Dragons still can't use their powers up to their full potential because of the low mana level.

And the situation with resurrection spells is something special. The did indeed work once. But they worked because Death had been trapped under the Death Sea by the passions. There is no indication that he still is.

[fistandantilus4....]

there was a ritual that nethermancers could do becuase fo that, but the Journey to Life is a 15th circle wizard spell. You may be right about the low mana though. Just go ask Lung permission to cast it on Mt Taishain while the comet is over head. :D

Also remember that the so-called- passion Death (because it was never conclusively even proved that there was a Passion Death) would be a lot less powerful, because passions live off of the strenght of belief. When was the last time the DocWagon questor of Garlen healed you for example?

Personally I prefer a higher mortality rate in SR, I like to keep that grit. But at the same time, I feel that it should be possible. Just my opinion.

[Oracle]

Death's existence isn't questioned anywhere in Earthdawn. The question is just if he is a passion or something different.There have never been questors of Death, besides the Keys of Death, who do not have any special powers. My vote goes for "something different".

Death's realm is even described in the "Earthdawn Survival Guide". In the "Prelude to War" supplement the dwarfs of Throal are rallied to war against Thera by prince Neden after his father being slain by Jada Denairastas. After the resulting battle and the disastrous defeat of Throal's forces resurrection spells and potions do not work like they used to for a week or so. The reason is that so much blood has been shed that Death comes close to freedom. (Actually I am not sure about this reference. It could also have been after the battle of Sky Point in the "Barsaive at War" campaign.)

Concerning the passions: They have been replaced. By new passions. There is that Theran province that worships a single passion not yet born... ("Theran Empire")

EDIT: I once GMed a whole campaign centered around the imprisonment of Death. At first the PCs wanted to stop the Keys of Death from releasing Death from the Death Sea. At last the characters themselves realised that the Passions imprisoned Death because they fear him. And that Death is necessary to make life possible. And so the characters freed Death.

[fistandantilus4....]

point was never whether or not death existed as 'something', only that had 'it' existed as some sort of intelligence, it would no longer have the same kind of influence as before, because SR/ED magic has always worked off of a system of belief. 'Death' had power because people believed it did (ever seen Skeleton Key BTW? Good flick) That kind of power isn't going to be reflected in SR.

[mfb]

eh, meh. there's evidence that magic springs at least partially from belief in SR--witness the Dragon totem. whether belief can give rise to something sentient is another question completely (unless you count totems as sentients).

[Oracle]

Is it really magic that springs from believe? Or aren't people just putting their natural magical ability in a form they are able to comprehend with their cultural background?

[fistandantilus4....]

To an extent, you can say that the belief simply shapes the mana and how it is used. But there is evidence that the more (or less) belief behind a concept, the more powerful it becomes. Blood magic in the 4th world for example, specifically states in Magic:MMoS that the strong belief of it's power (and growing belief) strengthens blood magic for spell use and oathes. Belief (or lack of) the passions reinforces that.

There were some that were forgotten in other parts of the world in the 4th age that simply went away. The only suggestion of a Passion in the 6th world is the appearance of 'Vestrial' to Harlequin, who is rumored to have been a questor of his in the past, lending to the idea that his belief in Vestrial gives him the power to manifest, even if it isn't a belief that he tries to foster.

Everything suggests that belief plays a very big role in how magic works in SR. Look at the UMT for example, where mages can learn to summon differnet types of servants because they open their minds to the possibilty.

Thus bringing it back full circle to ressurection spells. In ED, nothing in the spell description says anyhting about Death having any effect on the spell. The caster simply weaves threads to the spirit of the deceased, drawing them back to their body (and must overcome any other spirits that might want to stop in). 6th worls mages would likely not have the same mindset about Death, so it is unlikely the idea of Death being 'free' would have any effect on their spell. Now if they had learned it from someone that believed that way from the 4th world.... who knows, it could at least make it much more difficult.

[Oracle]

Harlequin a questor of Vestrial? Fitting. But still, the questor of a mad passion? I don't know...

[fistandantilus4....]

Vestrial wasn't always mad. Before he was the passion of mischief and trickery (or something to that effect)

[Mr.Platinum]

And casting a force 10 Power Ball isn't powerfull?

[fistandantilus4....]

Not when you compare it to Void Wave. Or maybe that's just me.

[Mr.Platinum]

sorry but what the hell is a void wave?

[Oracle]

A spell to slay whole regiments. Always liked it.

In the sixth world a powerball is powerfull. But in the ancient times of Barsaive it would have been a mere 3 on a scale from 1 to 10.

[Mr.Platinum]

is this from the earthdawn world i know so little about?

[Oracle]

Yes, it is.

[blakkie]

[Weredigo]

[Grinder]

[Oracle]

Without fearing to get any damage at all.

[Grinder]

Ah, sure. :)

[hobgoblin]

[Muzzaro]

I always like to think of "magic" being like in the David Edding's series, The Belgarad and The Malloreon. That it can be done, and it can make life easier, but there are so many rules and consequences involved, that most of the time it's easier just doing the jobs by hand. That if you make it rain or fog up when it's a perfectly sunny day, it could cause weather changes all over the globe (most for the bad), but if there's a bank of fog moving in, you could kind of hurry it up a little. Also, there's no destruction either. You can't "unmake" something, because it would just end up "unmaking" you.

That way, Magic is a powerful edge, but it's not to be over-used, or it will come back to bite you in the ass later.

[Mr.Platinum]

Magic in SHadow Run and not comparing it to other games like Dungeon and Schwagons is rather powerful in combat and othter situation.

If it was'nt then why geek the mage first?

[Grinder]

It's "Gekk the ki-ad first, quickly" since SR3. ;)

[FrankTrollman]

In SR2, the correct choice was "Geek the Street Sam First." because you were going to have a couple of actions left over to geek the enemy mage once you'd done that.

In SR3, the correct choice was "Spray down all enemies lightly with automatic fire first." because TN penalties were ginormous and applied to dodging, and everyone was otherwise going to have an action in the first initiative pass anyway.

In SR4, the correct choice is "Take Cover First" because everyone is pretty lethal, everyone's going to get an action in the first IP, and wound penalties are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.

-Frank

[Tanka]

And in SR1, it was "You Mean I Have To Roll For Each And Every Bullet Fired? What The Hell Is Up With That, Anyway?"

[blakkie]

[Talain]

[Grinder]

Or dead, because of the drain.

[emo samurai]

He could always learn blood magic and sacrifice people to absorb it.

[John Campbell]

He could sacrifice people to generate the power to resurrect them!

[Grinder]

A great idea! :D

[Herald of Verjig...]

Lets see, 6 essense for the life, +restored magic rating (if present) and a 50% death tax.
Sounds like an easy enough prospect if you can survive the learning process.

[BookWyrm]

IMHO;

D&D/AD&D Magic; all the flash, major power at minor levels, no consequences (unless the GM happens to have a copy of the Dragon article about mis-cast spells & enforces it during play). I played AD&D for 15 years, and while the high-adventure aspect was appealing at the time, it tends to get too Munchkin-istic after a while.

SR; What caught my eye about SR's version was there was a cost to using magick. Mages took Drain, even for the 'insignificant' spells like Sleep or Stun. Mages lost Magic when they got seriously wounded or got too many enhancements. There was a price to pay for Initiation, whether solo or in a group. SR continues to evole. :D

[mfb]

[Liper]

you can't raise the dead, look under spell design, there are strict limits to what magic can and can't do. (or mainly can't)

[tisoz]

Talain, Liper, maybe you need to RTFM. Raising the dead is like mfb said - not a general exclusion. If it is excluded somewhere, be specific.
:proof:

[Herald of Verjig...]

Since there seems to be some disagreement, and I have MitS open right now:

[tisoz]

:S It must be somewhere else in MitS. They do not know where, but trust them, it is there. ;)

[Talain]

[Lindt]

*announcer voice*
In the red corner, we have, weighing in at 110 lbs, Bal'Dermen, 12 level half-elf mage.
In the blue corner, weighing in a 295 lbs, Big Steve the second circle troll street mage.

*ding*
*Steve quick draws his Ceska and hoses Bal down in a hail of hot lead, breaking Bals concentration and leaving him with 10 new orifices.*

ShadowRun For The Win.

[mfb]

but... SR doesn't have circles!

that said, i don't see how the ability to raise the dead automatically turns the game into D&D.

[Grinder]