 Is magic broken? |
 Sep 6 2006, 03:23 PM
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#1
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019  |
Is magic broken? As it is, spirits will wipe out anything without Manabolt, and magic can duplicate almost anything anyone else can do.
Then again, it is a huge karma sink. |
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Sep 6 2006, 03:30 PM
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#2
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'm curious as to why the two people who've voted "yes" thus far -- or, really, the two that voted "no" for that matter -- haven't posted anything to back up their sentiments.
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Sep 6 2006, 03:36 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
Some specific things are broken, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
and what's with you and polls? |
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Sep 6 2006, 03:43 PM
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#4
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
A more pertinent question would be "What's with you and magic." And the answer is "It is 73|-| 4vv350|\/|3."
As for polls, I'm a populist. Not. |
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 Sep 6 2006, 04:10 PM
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#5
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,760 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
No, magic is not broken. And no, spirits do not wipe out everything (unless you use double digit spirits all the time).
A typical spirit of reasonable force is quite defeatable by a mundane. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 6 2006, 04:16 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Magic is most certainly broken
if you do not believe me, then look at the effect of using a spirit of man for this simple trick let it know a couple of spells you know (say armour and increase reflexes) have it sustain them on you and maybe have it maintain concealment on oyu make this puppy force 6 or so and you are a better sammy than the sammy, faster than the adept and tougher than the troll add in the fact that you are better than invisible and things get truly disgusting. EDIT: oh and before anyone mentions about the spirits as sustaining foci have the whole force reduction and angry issues... that is if it sustains a spell YOU cast... it is only sustaining a spell IT cast |
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Sep 6 2006, 04:25 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
spirits do have a check and balance- this is cost and services.
each trick a spirit does is a service. that costs you. and a spirit can be banished, removing it from the equation. banishing uses fewer resources than sumoning the spirit. as for duplications- how many spells can one mage cast and maintain at a time? how long does it take the mage to go from no spells up, to being equal to a sam? how many times can that sam shoot him in that time? magic can do a lot, but its not all powerfull. mages are weaker when suprised. magic takes a lot of preperation to do properly. it can be just as expensive as a sams cyber, if not more so. now, the real question comes down to, do you understand the many weaknesses of magic? all the ways a smart sam can geek the mage who IS ready for him? |
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Sep 6 2006, 04:28 PM
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#8
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
A big enough Sprite can wipe out anything that doesn't have an Attack program, I'm not sure how that's different. Does that mean that Hacking is "broken" because spirits can't do anything about it?
-Frank |
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Sep 6 2006, 04:29 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
for those in thew shadowrunning busines, attack programs are far more common than having the ability to counter the spirit trick mentioned above
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Sep 6 2006, 04:49 PM
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#10
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Guns have no drain!
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Sep 6 2006, 04:55 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
So? you can't shoot what you can't see
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Sep 6 2006, 05:02 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Yes you can, assuming you have a reason to believe it's there. Blind fire is a hefty -6 penalty, but it is possible.
Also the "guns have no drain" comment is generally used to show that combat spells are not stronger than guns. Since you can shoot at things you can't see but cannot cast at them (except for the higher drain elemental attacks) that reply actually backs the position. "Guns have no drain" says nothing about the power of noncombat spells, which is generally what people look at when deciding if magic is "broken" or not. |
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Sep 6 2006, 05:03 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Scoped Panther Assault Cannons are broken. They can be fired at you from further away than almost any other weapon, meaning that the average character can't shoot back! That's so unfair!
Magic does some annoying shit, but it's not broken. As a GM, I'd say I have to work harder keeping the game's magic-opposing stuff in line than I do keeping almost any other aspect of the game in line, but this doesn't mean it's broken, just a PITA. I am glad that the telecommuting mage has gotten less practical. |
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Sep 6 2006, 05:08 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
I haven't had too many problems with magic. Sometimes the group's mage walks all over stuff, sometimes he falls unconscious from drain. Sometimes he gets really frustrated because he's not sure why he can't seem to get Control Thoughts to work (he always picks the best protected ones to use it on). Magic is powerful at times, but it's also risky business. I like that. It keeps him on his toes. (Well, the fact that they were ambushed and nearly killed by a mage no more powerful than any one member of the group also keeps him on his toes.) Magic's not broken, it's dangerous.
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Sep 6 2006, 07:29 PM
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#15
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,760 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Sure, they got ammo drain... :D Bye Thanee |
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Sep 6 2006, 08:02 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
I think any mage worth his/her salt will have an armor and increased reflexes spell (the mage one is likely to have enough hits to give them four initiative passes, more than most street sams) on sustaining foci. Good luck getting the drop on them. |
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Sep 6 2006, 08:07 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Right, but guns, on average, dont' do nearly as much damage to as large an area as the average combat spell cast by a competent mage. There has definitely been a shift towards Awakened characters being stronger in the more recent rulesets, 3rd edition included. I run a game with 6 players. Each player, upon looking at the rules, chose some form of Awakened, except for two of them (a hacker and a street sam). The street sam is regularly matched in combat by the pistol adept, and the mage is very powerful. There are too many loopholes. You can basically summon an infinite number of spirits to kick someone's ass as long as you're far enough away to make it a remote service, so the spirit no longer counts against the limit of spirits you can conjure at once. |
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Sep 6 2006, 08:22 PM
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#18
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
If you allow this, then I would want guns that don't run out of ammo, nor ever jam! |
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Sep 6 2006, 08:24 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Allow it? It's RAW. Guns have ammo, ammo costs money. Conjuring is free. And assuming you've got the dice and can resist the drain (not hard to figure out a decent stat build for this), there's no rule that I know of to prevent this.
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Sep 6 2006, 08:30 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
I think overcasting to summon spirits is broken, but that's easy enough to houserule (note that I don't yet have Street Magic). Combat spells aren't any stronger than bullets and grenades, and most other spells can be countered with tactics and gadgets.
I voted no. |
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Sep 6 2006, 08:36 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Combat spells aren't stronger? Get serious. Compare magic to a reasonably sized gun...lets say an ingram smartgun. Damage rating of 5p. Load it with EX-EX and burst fire, and you'll drive that up to 9P, plus hits (reduced by the defense test of the target), that then gets sent up against ballistic armor + BODY. Ballistic armor being the type that most people will have the most of. Now, try casting a manabolt at force 6. 6P, plus hits (there will be plenty of those), hits that won't be reduced by any dodge tests. I've almost never seen a force 6 spell get fewer than 3 hits, so that's at least 9P that goes up against Willpower (a stat that almost nobody uses for anything but resisting magic and Black IC) ALONE. No armor whatsoever.
Even if you go with an indirect combat spell like fireball (which can be used without LOS), you're still going up against Body + half of impact armor, way better than you'll get with a bullet (gel rounds go against impact armor, but add +2 to the armor rating). Combat spells are much, much better than bullets. |
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Sep 6 2006, 08:56 PM
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#22
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,987 Joined: 1-March 05 From: République Libre du Québec Member No.: 7,129 |
Emo likes the polls.
No pun intended. :P Anyways; I don't believe magic is "broken" in any ways. Yes, it can be terribly powerful, but it's a double edge weapon. Very powerful magic can kill you really fast... and that works both ways: for the target and the caster. It's also a huge karma sink and being a mojo slinger usually means people will try to kill you first ;) It's not broken, it's just extreme in all it's advantages and disadvantages. |
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Sep 6 2006, 09:01 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
Casting a spell is a complex action. Shooting a burst is a simple action. IMO, a manabolt is stronger than a single burst, but not two.
Another point is that a 6 magic mage isn't going to have the body or edge attributes that the sammy has due to karma costs, so those bursts are going to be harder to resist than you imply. |
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Sep 6 2006, 09:04 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Bullets also don't cause drain.
Magic and guns are about equal in my experience, with guns coming out slightly ahead (mostly because of the ability to fire twice per round). Where magic pulls ahead is in miscellaneous effects. Guns have a lot lower ability to take over someone's mind. :) |
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Sep 6 2006, 10:32 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
Actually, they do take over someone's mind and then blow it out of the back of their skulls :D Bullets can take over pretty fast on full auto. I wouldn't say magic is broken just powerful, as it should be. It should also be rare but that's up to each GM.
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Sep 6 2006, 10:42 PM
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#26
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
A strong manaball will do more damage to more people than any full auto burst. It can cover a much wider area. |
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Sep 6 2006, 10:52 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
If you're talking about area spells you have to look at grenades and missiles, not bursts. Grenades are fairly comparable to the various ball spells. Exactly how well they compare depends on how you interpret the rules for dodging them.
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Sep 6 2006, 10:53 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,063 |
But, firing off a pair of frag or HE grenades will probably do as much if not more damage, especially if you can manage to pull off the chunky salsa effect. Remember, Spell Casting is a Complex Action, so its power level should be compared to the effects of either a) another Complex Action or b) two Simple Actions devoted to offense.
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Sep 6 2006, 10:57 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Grenades don't explode until the end of the round. In a game where almost everyone has 3 initiative passes, that thing is never going to kill its intended target. A manaball goes off immediately, and is a much safer bet. Add in the utility of the other spells, and the extra manpower added by conjuring, and the scale tips heavily in favor of magic over tech in Shadowrun. Unlike drones, you never have to buy a spirit, or even repair it. And unlike cyberware, there isn't really a machine that detects being Awakened. Magic is just a better deal. |
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Sep 6 2006, 10:57 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 7-February 05 Member No.: 7,063 |
While you are correct that there are no rules to prevent it yet, I recall that one of the authors/freelancers who worked on that section has commented on the boards that spirits on remote services are intended to count against your limit, and that this will be reflected when the FAQ is released (if the FAQ is released). Armed with that knowledge, you are perfectly free to go ahead and implement it in your games, as many have already done. No reason to follow a rule that only came into being because it wasn't editted carefully enough. |
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Sep 6 2006, 10:58 PM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It's also a lot cheaper (in terms of BP) to have versatility through your grenades with stun damage, physical damage, chemicals, and vision blockers (IR smoke is really fun).
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Sep 6 2006, 11:00 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
You can't match the versatility of magic, though. Flight, invisibility, protection from magic (magic is the only protection from magic, while you can protect yourself from bullets and explosives more effectively with magic than tech and armor), illusions, instant healing that far outstrips a medkit, and of course the powers that spirits can provide. |
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Sep 6 2006, 11:03 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Right, I said that earlier. :)
I'm specifically talking about the versatility of grenades vs. magical booms. Magic has more versatility with the oft-maligned elemental effects, but it's much more expensive in terms of build points to cover multiple bases of area attacks. |
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Sep 6 2006, 11:31 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
I don't know...you only have to buy an area effect spell once. You'll be buying grenades for the rest of your career. Just sayin', I think magic has outstripped tech in SR4, and that was even before Street Magic came out. I hope Arsenal and the Cyberware book kind of set things back into balance, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Sep 7 2006, 12:09 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 8-June 06 From: Present day, Detroit Member No.: 8,683 |
Here's the link for that thread about unlimited remote services http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...remote+services
But you pay for that AE spell every time you cast it with drain. It seems like a lot of magicians seem only to cast on perfect sunny days in the middle of a vacant lot 5 feet from the intended target, gotta remember those visibility modifiers. Also as we all know, manaballs only affect those who were in LOS. Also also, last time i checked there was a lot of ambiguity about indirect spells in SR4, has it been spelled out that they CAN affect targets outside of LOS? |
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Sep 7 2006, 12:33 AM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
One manaball costs |
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Sep 7 2006, 12:40 AM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
15BP? How so? Spells don't cost 15BP per spell. Unless you're counting the stats or skill, which really shouldn't count, unless you want to compare the cost of buying high agility/combat skills, which will be comparable.
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Sep 7 2006, 12:40 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
Grenades explode immediately when shot from a grenade launcher. And for 2000Y you can get a launcher at chargen that fires 2 per IP. Thrown grenades explode on the next IP, not the next round. Manaball requires LOS to all targets. Grenades can be thrown/shot around cover. |
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Sep 7 2006, 12:43 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
He meant 3BP, which is worth 15000Y |
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Sep 7 2006, 12:47 AM
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#40
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Doh! What ShadowDragon said.
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Sep 7 2006, 12:51 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
Ares alpha anyone? I'll have to check and see if it can be fitted with an airburst link ;)
No denying that magic isn't perfect, but then again not many things are in life. And I'm certain there's plenty of tools available to GMs to help tone down the effects of magic. Ultrasound goggles, pressure sensors, security mages or adepts, etc. Plus if you throw up a smoke grenade enemy magic will have a hard time, whilst you can still shoot or throw/launch grenades through. Might get penalties, but penalties are better than not being able to do it at all. |
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Sep 7 2006, 12:55 AM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
I still think the magic is a better investment. Awakened characters have superior upgrade options, while anyone using cyberware has severe limits on how much they can upgrade. Not to mention, adding more cyberware makes it more difficult for that character to heal due to essence loss (to say nothing of the cyberzombie effect). And mages are the only character type who can easily start the game with four initiative passes.
Plus, grenades lose strength immediately as soon as you leave the point of impact. A manaball/powerball/ball lightning spell remains as potent as ever, regardless of distance. |
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Sep 7 2006, 12:59 AM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The airburst link is a smartgun accessory that doesn't take a mount. So yep, give your alpha an upgrade. :)
Visibility modifiers apply to spellcasting, so if there's a smoke grenade in the area spellcasting will be at -4 dice. Unless you've got thermal smoke and the mage is using thermographic vision he won't be stopped from casting. |
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Sep 7 2006, 01:03 AM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Walking around with sustained spells isn't as easy as it sounds. Wards, random astral entities, and patrolling spirits will take interest.
Which is a huge area generally. This means that unless your mage is leading the charge he's probably nuking his friends. Area attacks of any sort can be hard to use with friendlies around. The huge radius and ease of targetting makes area spells harder to avoid friendly fire with. |
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Sep 7 2006, 05:14 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Also keep in mind that walking around with sustained spells leaves your astral signature behind for Force hours. Easy to follow such a person and do horrible things to them.
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Sep 7 2006, 05:16 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
I don't agree with this. I'd always considered signatures to remain where the spell is actually cast. |
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Sep 7 2006, 05:25 AM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,113 |
My main problem with magic is as follows: Your sammy and your mage both try to bring a weapon onto a bus. Likelyhood someone on the bus knows what a normal pistol is (even has a chance to detect hidden) 100% Since useful mages make up so little of the population, likelyhood someone on the bus knows he's packing mana, (and most people have no chance to detect until he starts casting). Much smaller. Basically I've ruled that the average person absoutly hates mages because they see them all as invisible walking bombs. |
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Sep 7 2006, 05:51 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 22-March 05 From: vancouver Member No.: 7,215 |
Yah, this is one of the biggest drawbacks of a mages with a sustaining habbit. Most places of value (ie, the target of any shadowrun) will have wards up around the goodies so a mage will have to drop the sustaining spell to pass through undetected (and then do a whole recast on the other side of it) or "fight" his way through the ward which will set off all type of astral watchers and alarms. Plus, as James said, sustained spells are like a fraging big spotlight on the astral plane pointing everyone and everything towards the mage. In any type of stealth mission a mage with sustained spells is a major drawback and will probably get the team geeked. |
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Sep 7 2006, 05:57 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 22-March 05 From: vancouver Member No.: 7,215 |
Obviously you don't have to agree with this, and can rule how you like in your game, but as far as I understand the rules the Astral Signature is like a trail (or a scent if that is a better analogy) that lingers around all magical characters. The more stuff you have (magic items, sustained spells, etc...) means the scent is stronger and lingers around long after you leave the area, no matter if is where you cast the spell (although that might be the strongest spot) or where ever you roam afterwords. |
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Sep 7 2006, 06:26 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Less obviously, this was an implied invitation for everyone else to pile and tell you you're wrong, but, of course, you can rule however you like.
This, at least, is completely without any basis in the rules even by implication or extrapolation. Even if you allow astral signatures to be mobile and only start to run after a spell sustaining ends, force, rather than quantity, determines how long signatures last. |
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Sep 7 2006, 07:15 AM
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#51
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
The wording is a bit ambiguous as to whether walking around with sustained spells leaves a trail behind. I mean, technically, if you're sustaining a spell in an area, then you are creating a magical effect in that area.
On the other hand, you aren't casting it in that area. I think this is something that could use clarification. |
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Sep 7 2006, 03:44 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
My justification for yes.
Combat spells can waste just about everything. With little comparative risk or trace ability. |
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Sep 7 2006, 04:16 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
The only mobile area of effect spells I can think of offhand are Detection. Even if you cast it on yourself and don't move, surely an extended range doesn't leave a huge cloud of signature all over the place! (Ewww.) Signatures attach to what you cast a spell "on." While sometimes that will be a (stationary) area, more often it's a specific person/target. |
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Sep 7 2006, 04:25 PM
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#54
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Nighthaunter: Guns can also waste just about everything with little comparative risk or tracability. And it's a heck of a lot easier for an investigative team to find and track down an astral signature then a bullet.
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Sep 7 2006, 04:36 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
I just don't get this. What's easy about it? Signatures do not provide astral links for tracking like sustained spells, foci, ward, and spirits do. If you kill someone with a manaball, all the signature does is leave your fingerprint. The investigators still have to know it's your fingerprint. If you assume, as I do, that registered mages have to be assensed and have a description of their signature recorded, and further assume, as I do, that this description is helpful enough to allow one to look someone up in the database and at least narrow it down to a few subjects with similar signatures, you still don't have a problem with this for runners because they're SINless and not in the database! Yes, if a mage later assenses some of your magical activity and he knows about your prior criminal activity and associated signature, you've been ID'd as the perp. And this can certainly happen if you go around casting magic casually around magical observers who regularly read police and corporate security astral signature blotters. So don't do that. Admittedly, this is all still "easier" than finding a gun and comparing it to a bullet, but it's really not that easy. The essential problem remains the same - if you're busted with the evidence, it can be used to convict you. But if you're busted already, specific evidence of conviction may not be your principle concern. So just don't get busted and don't flash your signature around in strange company where it might be recognized and draw unwanted attention or payback squads. |
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Sep 7 2006, 04:37 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
I don't think magic is broken because statistics are statistics, but dice are chaos. One day, your sorceror is going to cast Invisibility and score three hits; the first guard to see him will roll a lucky four, and blow his head clean off.
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Sep 7 2006, 04:47 PM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I didn't say it was easy, just that it was easier. Someone who has seen your signature will recognize it when they see it again. That means if any who have your cig circulated amongst them happen to see it elsewhere (say on a passing person or spirit) they can follow that line back to you. If they see another one of your bullets they won't even realize it until the ballistics team has told them it's the same, and there's no astral chain between bullets and shooters like there is between spells and casters.
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Sep 9 2006, 08:50 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 6-August 06 Member No.: 9,032 |
Slightly off-topic: If and how can a mage transfer or describe an astral signature he has spotted to one of his mage-chummers? The only thing i could think of would be a consensual mindprobe which would need a lot of trust for sure. Other ways you can think of?
Of course I'm specially asking in reference to the cops who will have found a method to do it, i fear. ^^ |
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Sep 9 2006, 08:59 AM
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#59
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,760 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
It might work with a spirit as 'messenger'. You can give spirits a mental image of a signature, and I suppose this works both ways. You just let the other mage take control of the spirit then.
Bye Thanee |
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Sep 9 2006, 02:07 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
As mentioned somewhere else, thrown Grenades come with a wireless link at no extra cost. Got a datajack and a comlink? Arm. Toss. (Free action to remote trigger) Boom. |
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Sep 9 2006, 02:13 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
Oh and to add my own vote... Yes magic can be overpowered, in the right circumstances.
This, however, should be something that Shadowrun GMs are used to dealing with. Magic has always been friggin' powerful. The key is to apply the disadvantages it does have. When was the last time you had a mage in your games that was worried about burning out? People only seem to see the games where the mage is on his 4th initiation, right out of character generation. My question is: If 'Turn to goo' was too overpowered a spell idea for 3rd edition, why'd they bring it back in 4th? |
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Sep 9 2006, 02:33 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I understand that perhaps this response may be coming in late. However, I think the question is fairly broad, and open to interpretation - Perhaps we could focus it down a bit. If by "Is Magic Broken" do you mean that it is a disfunctional system? No, of course not - It demonstrates itself to be fluid, adaptable, and blends seemlessly into the majority of mechanics put forth in the fourth edition of Shadowrun. But as I do not believe that the afforementioned interpretation is what the original poster intended, I believe it could be rewritten as "Is the Magic system a point of Shadowrun that is exploitable, and abuseable? And if so, can the exploitation and abuse create situations or characters that are detrimental to the other archetypes." If that were the question posed, I would say 'Yes' on the first count, absolutely. I think we've all seen magic abuse since the beginning of Shadowrun. Afterall, 'Geek the Mage First' isn't a term that came into being on it's own. Infact, the rules themselves openly admit this. And I believe the second point will be answered by the conclusion of this post.
Afterall - There is no single Build Point expenditure that will have a more dramtic amount of returns available to character. Simply put, a player will always have the option to turn his Mage into a Samurai, if they choose to do so, from the standpoint of rules alone. Nothing is holding them back, save penalties on magic abilities that his Mundane counterparts didn't have to begin with. If that's a drawback, it's one that any powergamer would take in a heartbeat. This is relevent because if we're talking about something that can be abused, or exploited, then we're concerned about a powergamer playertype using the letter of the law, rather than it's spirit. So, of course Magic is Abuseable, and Exploitable - From the perspective of the game designers, the core text from Shadowrun 4th Edition implies that this was intentional. There isn't a subsection included that says: "This is what balances out Magic with Mundanes, refer to these rules." It clearly, and open endedly says: "Gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused." Hardly any of the arguements for why Mundanes match up with Awakened characters hold water because at the most fundamental level, an awakened character will nearly always have the options of their mundane counterparts. Mundane = Ruthenium. Mage = Ruthenium + Invisibility. Mundane = Assault Rifle on full auto (Guns don't have drain codes?). Mage = Assault Rifle on Full Auto (Guns don't require essence, either) + Fireball/Manabolt/Manaball/Control Actions. Mundane = Cybernetic Initiative Passes. Mage = Magical Initiative Passes. Mundane = Cyberspurs. Mage = Cyberspurs + Melee Buffs + Magical Ability that still maintains a ratio of Infinity to Nothing vs. the effective Magic Attribute Value of Mundanes. Pound for Pound, an awakened character by the numbers will always outdistance its mundane counterpart. The game system accepts this. And the grim reality is, short of GM intervention, there are no rules in place that will prevent the long term domination of Awakened Character's over Mundanes. If this becomes a problem in your game, then it is a matter that only your GM can control - Background counts. Threats being introduced that specifically work to the disadvantage of Awakened Characters. Spells going awry, or follow-up repurcussions from Astral Signatures. But, unfortunately, outside of the Intelligent direction of your Gamemaster, with a backbone to say "No" to his awakened characters from time to time, you will not find Mundane's standing toe to toe with Awakened. You'll always be outclassed, someway, somehow - Perhaps Augmentation will settle the score, so those of us who prefer mundanes will have to hold our breath, and hope for the best. (Edit: Changed 'layed as magicians' to 'played as magicians' - We aren't overly concerned with Awakened pr0n.) |
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Sep 9 2006, 03:23 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
This is purely a GM call, but there's not reason he can't rule that astral signatures can be described with considerable details in ways that make sense to other awakened characters. Maybe it has "colors" in some identifiable pattern, so that one guy's signature looks like pink crosshatched with blue and spotted with orange. (Or for less detail, just sort of pale bluish-red.) Then from that description you can decide whether a later signature is a possible match or not before you call in the original guy to confirm or make further investigation through other means. Treat it like an eye witness description, varying detail according to how you want it in your game. Can you just give the equivalent of "tall, medium build, light brown hair"? Or will you also spot better identifying details, like scars, eye color, nose shape, teeth, etc? |
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Sep 9 2006, 05:37 PM
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#64
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,113 |
Should it be harder to describe an aura to someone of a different tradition? (As in you'd describe it within the confines of your tradition) |
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Sep 10 2006, 12:42 AM
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#65
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I didn't vote. Shadowrun has a very elegant and balanced magic system on the whole. However, it is broken in one very important way: Magical development is open ended. Non-magical development is capped, and capped quickly. When your samurai has got his Dermal implants to rating three, the mage is just getting going with a quickened Armour spell. Another year of game time and your samurai still has dermal III, but now the mage has Armour 8 quickened. Apply it to anything you like. Magicians have long term power-development and playability. Samurai not only peak early. Sometimes they've peaked in character development. Samurai need more toys and they need them now. Roll on Arsenal and Augmentation! |
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Sep 10 2006, 12:48 AM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
I would take this whining more seriously if your "capped" samurai already had natural 6s in Reaction, Willpower, Body, Agility, and Reaction. And decent ratings in Strength and Intuition.
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Sep 10 2006, 02:43 AM
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#67
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I believe the 'Latent Magician' quality was also a response to gamer complaints that mundanes 'capped out' quicker than magical types. At only 5 points, it's super-cheap, and allows the street sam/rigger/hacker an escape hatch when, after 5 years of campaigning and 500 karma, he's run out of mundane things to invest in. |
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Sep 10 2006, 04:34 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I don't think that's the solution we're looking for.
Players: Mundane's aren't balanced with Awakened Characters. Mr. Solution: Well. Make an awakened Character, then! |
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Sep 10 2006, 06:10 AM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Trust me, in 5 years of campaigning you'll see enough SOTA books to upgrade the sammie, and then SR5 will come out and you'll reset the campaign. No worries. :)
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Sep 10 2006, 08:20 AM
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#70
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
Having done the work at converting old characters over to SR4 the street sam types are hitting their caps on everything ie combat skills, perception, their choice of Stealth skills and Influence skills, plus a secondary or two (in the main case medicine) and having most attributes maxed at around 700-800 karma, more for technophile rigger types. This is a reasonable amount of room to my mind (okay I'm lucky my players go for balanced over specialised) and I use a slightly doctored reduce karma cost set up as i wasn't happy with the one in the book.
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Sep 10 2006, 01:32 PM
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#71
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Magic does give the player a lot of creative possibilities, and certain players may be able to break the game using combinations made possible in the rules—if the GM lets them. However, it seems that players who are not dead set on breaking the game may feel mages are underpowered compaired to cybered characters. More often than not, mages in my group don't really get their stuff to work before the street samurai in the group has wiped out the enemy, or they may just not think of using some of their abilities because there's so many of them.
So no, I don't think magic is broken. Certain spells are though, but I have corrected them. |
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Sep 10 2006, 07:51 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
aside from the mind control stuff, things seem pretty balanced.
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Sep 10 2006, 07:57 PM
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#73
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I agree with that, although I haven't seen much of Street Magic, so can't really comment on anything in it.
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Sep 13 2006, 07:30 PM
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#74
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Street magic managed to add so many varied things that I'm not sure we'll know about "balance" until we've had a lot more playtime with it.
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Sep 16 2006, 01:38 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 6-January 03 From: In front of my laptop Member No.: 3,860 |
In case you don't get it from the poll results take a look at the posts and topics on the forum right now. The forum is currently 3 magic fanboys to every 1 cyber fanboy.
I am not saying it bad or good. That all depends on what camp you are in, but don't be surprised when promagic thoughts get gushed over and procyber thoughts get the cold shoulder, or when the forum defends magic. Things may swing around all over again when augmentation comes out. Remember sams have all of 10 pages of cannon right now, maybe 20 if you want to count the whole gear section. ^shrug^ In the end it is up to the GMs to find balance in their games. Shadowrun is a large system. There are things broken on both ends, magic to cyberware. Fan Pro is doing a great job, but you can't take the rules as words from god. Its a game just make sure everyone is having fun thats the point |
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Sep 16 2006, 11:38 AM
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#76
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
natural 6s? no but I have got augmented 9s in most of those after about 100 karma and some insanely good cash runs and the mage STILL PWNs me |
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Sep 16 2006, 03:45 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
See! You wasted Essence by getting more than three points of augmentation when you could have just waited for another 100 karma points and done it that way. Then you'd have more room for toys. For shame!
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Sep 16 2006, 04:35 PM
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#78
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
is that sarcasm?
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Sep 16 2006, 04:42 PM
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#79
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
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Sep 16 2006, 05:01 PM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
If we didn't like magic, then we would be playing Cyberpunk. |
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Sep 16 2006, 05:37 PM
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#81
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The fact that ranged weapons generally require a simple action to fire rather than a complex is an advantage that cannot be overstated. Even against Force 9 Spirits, the character who I see consistently dishing out the kills is the street samurai with a sniper rifle firing armor piercing rounds. Base 8P, -7 AP, and she always calls a shot for an additional +4 DV, it easily slices through the 18 points of hardened armor. and causes some real damage (6-9 boxes of it in fact). Since it's just a simple action, the act that a single shot isn't enough to kill the spirit isn't even meaningful - she just fires a second time and this time the spirit has big penalties to its defense roll.
In the killing things market, even the killing of things with "immunity to normal weapons", an experienced street samurai in our group is substantially outperforming the magicians, and that's in neutral background count. Where the mages excell is doing all that other stuff they do. Just the fact that they have a healing effect that is unique to them that is cumulative with the first aid kit anyone can use means that they have something to feel smug about in all circumstances. The fact that spells like Invisibility work fundamentally differently from other forms of stealth is also often useful. But finally, the Spirit powers of Movement, Guard, and Concealment are simply awesome and not replaceable by other things. And that's the bottom line: a street samurai can kill things very well, but she's replaceable with a pack of mundanes with hatchets if it comes to that. There's not really anything you need a street samurai for. A Hacker or a Magician is someone you need. You literally cannot complete some missions without those characters. So that puts character types like the Street Samurai under the hairy eyeball. They aren't necessary, so if they aren't played well they come off as incredibly lame. -Frank |
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Sep 16 2006, 05:43 PM
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#82
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,113 |
This only surpises me because magic has played such a minor role in the games I've been a part of (we might run into something magical on 1% of the runs) |
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Sep 16 2006, 06:10 PM
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#83
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I somehow doubt that pack of mundanes with hatchets is going to fare well against the Force 9 Spirit you mentioned. :)
I'd like to know too. Willpower is at least as important as body, if not moreso. You can augment body resistance tests with things like armor and toxin filters. There aren't anywhere near as many ways to augment Willpower, so having a high base stat is vital. |
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Sep 16 2006, 06:39 PM
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#84
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Target Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 16-September 06 Member No.: 9,400 |
Just curious...where does it say that you can determine any of the Spirits Characteristics other than those determined by force? I assumed that these would be determined by your GM. The power you're talking about is also OPTIONAL. Just Curious |
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Sep 16 2006, 06:41 PM
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#85
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Additional powers are chosen by the character.
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Sep 16 2006, 06:47 PM
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#86
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,113 |
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Sep 16 2006, 07:20 PM
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#87
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That depends upon how many hatchetmen you have. A Force 9 spirit isn't hiding, it's a threshold of -3 to notice it, so even the dazed and confused are going o pinpoint it as soon as it materializes. And that's good, because it's going to spend its first IP materializing. And then your hatchetmen are going to charge en masse. And they are going to accomplis very little. See, they've got Willpowers of 3 and Charismas of 3 and hatchets. They also outnumber the spirit by a lot. Each Hatchetman gets 3 (Willpower) + 1 (Reach) + 4 (outnumbering) + 2 (charging) = 10 dice on their attack and a base DV of 3 (Charisma). The spirit has, unfortunately, 20 dice on its defense rolls (11 Reaction + Unarmed Combat 9). That's bad, but it also drops by 1 every time it blocks an attack (and by more every time it fails to block an attack). So if you attack it 10 times, you're going to be getting an attack or two through. And that's not much, because it also soaks 3-4 boxes on its Body check. So at 10 foolios, we're looking ar inflicting 0-1 boxes of damage or so (although statistically it's probably a little better than that because when the spirit rolls really well nothing happens and when it rolls absolute dick it takes a notable pile of damage). But every foolio past 10 is golden. They're averaging inflicting a little more than 0 boxes of damage every attack. And if they spend Edge for 3 more dice and the rule of 6, they're looking at like 2 extra damage boxes each. So if I had 16 professional hatchet mooks, I'd confidently expect them to drop a Force 9 spirit without even suffering casualties. Attacks of Will don't work very well, but they work t all, and when large numbers of people are doing them even the mightiest of demons crumble. -Frank |
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Sep 16 2006, 07:51 PM
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#88
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Assuming they could all get near it. Go to a biker bar, wait til there are exactly 16 of them, call their gang a bunch of fags* and see how many can attack you at once. If you can talk them into using a battlemat, it'll only be 8 at a time unless someone learns to fly.
Of course, if they fail to kill it on the first round the odds are pretty good it's going to kill some of them. Exactly how it does it and how many drop will depend on what kind of spirit it is and what optional powers its summoner gave it. If they're extremely unlucky it has an area spell or energy aura and they all die at once. * If this doesn't work, it's possible you stumbled into a gay biker bar. Try calling them right wing conservatives and see if that gets the desired response. ;) |
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Sep 16 2006, 08:02 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Energy Aura makes them considerably less likely to want to charge it en masse. (Edit: James mentioned that, but only a Body 1-2 person rolling no successes is going to go down "at once" to a Force 9 EA.)They're going to have to kill it on the first attack, or, depending on armor and high Body, they're going to die on the second try. If they're smart they'll scatter and run, knowing the spirit can't catch all of them.
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Sep 16 2006, 08:20 PM
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#90
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It doesn't have to catch them. Remember, they're there to kill the spirit, not the other way around. In any case, you're definitely better off with the sniper rifle. :)
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Sep 16 2006, 08:26 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
I suppose. In any case, screw all of these extra hatchetmen marshmallows - I want to see someone's Charisma 9 elf send in a mob of 9 watchers to provide friend in melee dice that are immune to the Energy Aura.
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Sep 16 2006, 08:37 PM
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#92
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Oh no doubt. My point was not that the razorgirl was pointless. In fact,I think the example of one Razorgirl with a smart-linked high powered rifle being somewhat superior to 16 axe mooks definitely demonstrates that she has utility. My point was only that you could fill a van with members ofthe Axe Gang and do the same basic job of the razorgirl, while no number of Axe Gangers are going to speed your van up to 600 KPH (to replace a Conjurer with Movement) or loop a camera feed (to replace a Hacker). Combat effectiveness is something that everyone contributes, so the ability to contribute "a lot" to combat is a little less special than anything else you'd recruit a team member for. Note that Ocean's Eleven didn't even have a combat specialist and managed to do their Shadowruns just fine. The Italian Job is pretty much the same way, their killer betrayed them and they managed to get through by just outsourcing to East European mobsters. Neither group would have gotten anywhere without a demolitions expert and a hacker however. So if the rest of the team is willing to put in for the occassional character with a combat minor and the street sam isn't pretty competent as a character and as a player, it's entirely possible for the Street Samurai to feel like a fifth wheel. It doesn't happen every game Certainly, sometimes the Street Sam happens to be the team's driver, medic, or demolitions expert and ends up being completely iinvaluable in the team's plans and the most effective in combat (thus appearing to dominate play). But in an absolute sense, the razorgirl's skill with a high powered rifle, while impressive, is functionally replaceable with large enough numbers of mooks. No other signature team skill has that distinction. -Frank |
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Sep 16 2006, 09:28 PM
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#93
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Our current group doesn't have a street samurai. Either that, or everyone exceptt he mage is a street samurai, depending on how you look at it. Everyone in the group is capable of participating in battle and contributing, while nobody has 18+ dice. Well, I take that back. One guy has a lot of dice, but he duel wields, so it's more like he has a few dice but more times to use them.
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Sep 16 2006, 09:32 PM
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#94
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
True, but not really apropos to the standard situation. Most teams are one character per player, not one character per player except for the guy that runs 16 mooks. You can replace / invalidate the need for the team's mage just by not taking jobs where you're facing magical opposition. You can replace the hacker with a bunch of agents. Doesn't mean that those people are now obsolete. And in the standard game they're not even really replacable because the theory doesn't fit the table well. |
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Sep 16 2006, 09:34 PM
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#95
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, to be fair, limiting the number of attackers according to battlemat spaces is not in the rules. |
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Sep 16 2006, 09:44 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Hell, the rules even allow you to get bonus dice when you're attacking enemy A because your friends are attacking A's ally B a couple of meters away.
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Sep 16 2006, 10:01 PM
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#97
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
True, but neither is allowing 16 people to attack the same opponent. IIRC there are no limits, which means either the GM must decide (which seems to be the basis for SR4) or infinite numbers of opponents can attack the same target all at once. I'll go with GM decision on this one, and most (all?) GMs I know would set the limit somewhere lower than 16.
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Sep 16 2006, 10:10 PM
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#98
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Of course, the real issue is that if it's a fire elemental they're going to drop their axes, open their flies, and piss on the thing. We need distance rules! And talk about an exotic weapon proficiency...
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Sep 16 2006, 11:43 PM
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#99
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I wouldn't exactly call having your target loot cremated the culmination of a successful run (although that was poor planning combined with a fluke rather than a lack of muscle).
The hatchet mooks need a name. I shall call them The Light Brigade. Anyone remember The Light Brigade? Yeah, a full frontal change is rarely the best idea. It may work against spirits. It doesn't work against machine guns. All you need is 4 fully automatic weapons using suppressive fires rules at 50 meters and your 16 mooks will all die before they close to melee range. The razor girl, on the other than, just drops prone, crawls behind cover, and uses her smartlink camera to target the shooters from realitive safety.Even if they advance while firing they won't be able to compromise her cover before she kills them all. |
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Sep 17 2006, 07:22 PM
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#100
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Here's a question about magic balance. How do you treat area spells? I had a player who wanted to target an empty space with Ball Lightning, so as to target only the enemy, and leave himself (who was fairly nearby) unscathed. He was arguing that his goggles, which have a variety of vision enhancements and are linked to his commlink, could easily pinpoint the distance. I said I doubted it, and made him use the rules for constraining area effect spells (losing dice to better control the size of the area).
Am I being a hardass, or what? |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 1st August 2026 - 04:17 AM |
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