Is looting and pillaging the norm?, Or is there room for some decency? Options

[ChronoGib]

I seem to have a different impression of what the SR world is like then my players and I was wondering how other groups run. I know I'm posing a no-right-answers question, but I'm curious how others play.

I've noticed my players have tendencies like;
1) Take anything not bolted down and assume the consequences can be dealt with. (Like taking comlinks for the sole purpose of selling them later.)
2) Be excessively violent. Example A, if they get attacked while in a gang's territory the players slaughter the gangers then chase down anyone trying to flee (then do #1 with the bodies, luckily organs count as bolted down). Example B, the guy's already hiding under his desk, but they decide to kick him in the head for no reason.
3) Disrespect Johnsons by being rude and acting like they call all the shots. (I'd have the Johnson just walk out if I wasn't trying to establish certain characters and events for the plot)

I'm a new GM and I own and have read the 4th edition core book, Mr. Johnson's Black Book and played a couple of sessions of SR 3 years ago. I have a distinctively different view of how things go in the SR universe and was wondering if I just have the wrong expectations. I was reading this thread and got the impression my players are just being grossly unprofessional. I obviously need to talk to my players, but I want to figure out what reasonable expectations are first.

Thanks to anyone who can spare some advice.

[Jrayjoker]

Oh my God, you could be describing my players a couple years ago. I bought "Fields of Fire" and asked them to read through it. It helped.

[Kagetenshi]

There is no room for decency whatsoever. The line for "decency" was somewhere back before becoming a Shadowrunner.

That said, my advice is to let the chips fall where they may—1 and 2 aren't inherently bad ideas, but if they perform them too frequently without thought they'll probably get bitten. 3 is just a bad idea until the Johnsons need them more than they need the Johnsons (which generally happens during the runup to Prime Runnerhood). Screw the plot, if the character you made would walk out have him/her/it walk out.

~J

[Moirdryd]

Not to mention the excess of killing will get them noticedand Corpsec will be after them for Blood and Unless they are upto Prime Runner abilities (heavens forbid) enough gangers will gank them easily for killing their chummers. Dotn forget it's not just Runners who have `ware, guns and magic. Several gangs also have such things and indeed there are those sponsored by the syndicates...

[nezumi]

It sounds like they're a crew of overpaid thugs, not a group of professionals.

Looting is fine, but only with stuff that won't get them tracked down (example, might a commlink have a GPS module in it?) and won't put the mission at risk. This may be the time to enforce encumbrance rules, by the by. If they're walking out with two dozen assault rifles, they will not be able to fight properly. Similarly, if they are taking the time to strip men of their armor (and worse still, their cyber) during a run, they greatly increase the odds of security finding them. Again, enforce this. My players have only done this once and they learned their lesson well (since then, they've learned how to loot bodies AFTER the job, and how to do a very complete job on it).

Excessive violence can be bad because it slows them down and also because it increases the odds of their leaving evidence. You just booted a guy in the head? Now there's blood on your boot, dummy. Plus, a true sociopath (who isn't in management) gets increased attention and therefore fewer job offers. If the Johnson needs a kneebreaker, that's one thing. But if he's sending in a crew to pick up a weapons prototype and they keep trying it out on every Joe on the way home, the J has good cause for withholding some or all of their payment. As Moirdryd pointed out also, many non-runners are very, very tough. I was reading up on the stats for SR gangs. Most gang leaders of most established gangs sport betaware, three to five levels of initiation, and serious military hardware. Sure, Bob watching the keg doesn't have anything special, but the guy he reports to does, and that guy is now pissed off with your team. Toss a few beta wired-3 gangers at the crew. When they complain, show them where in the book that ganger is written up.

I'm with Kage on the last one as well. The Johnson isn't there to take abuse, plus it sounds like they don't have a great track record. They're violent and arrogant, who would want to hire them? They don't look like pros to me.

What I'd recommend:
1) Their fixer calls them up and chews them out. The Johnson was displeased. These guys can't watch their tongue and they brought a lot of attention to the wrong people on the last run. What don't they understand about the words "shadow" and "run"? He's had enough of these pompous gangers, he isn't putting his rep on the line sending quality jobs down to them. He doesn't actually have to do that, I can certainly imagine the fixer threatening to make sure the runners realize they need to fix things up, but it wouldn't hurt to send a few very poorly paying 'rough up this fellow' type jobs to drive the point home. They need to act like pros or no one else will treat them like one.

2) Set them up on a job unrelated to the campaign (maybe one from a pre-written mission book). When the crew inevitably badmouths the Johnson, he simply stands up, collects his stuff and leaves. Make sure you pick a job where the J can suffer a week or so setback. Then refer back to #1.

3) If your pre-designed campaign is only a few games away from completion or if there's very good reason why the J is willing to kiss the runners' bottoms, let him continue to suffer abuse. Otherwise, like Kage said, screw the campaign. They sunk a good relationship, they'll need to work it back. The Johnson calls them, says he's tired of them making such a loud mess of everything, and says he's found the relationship unfulfilling. He's going elsewhere for his business. IF they work up a reputation for being able to behave themselves, he may call them back (if). Thank you, goodbye.


The reason your players are running amok is because you're letting them. Enforce consequences and they will learn very quickly (although they may ask you OOC to go back to how things were before).

[eidolon]

I actively discourage 1, 2, and 3 in games that I run. When I play, I generally try and avoid doing any of them, because if the GM is like me I'll pay for it. ;)

[Kagetenshi]

[KarmaInferno]

Everything has a consequence. Everything.

Act like a thug, get treated like one. Lone Star will get increasingly hardcore on you, you will only ever get the low-paying thug jobs, nobody will ever trust you for anything important.

Karma's more than just a game mechanic.


-karma

[mfb]

personally, i have no problem with any of the above. there are all kinds of approaches to the shadows, and all kinds of pluses and minuses to each. for instance, their approach has the advantage of getting them a don't-fuck-with-us reputation. they can intimidate people just by showing up; when they roll into gang territory, there will be many gangs who just slink away and don't even poke their heads out for fear of getting it blown off. more professional, reserved runners would find themselves mobbed by those same gangs, simply because they don't have a reputation for wild-eyed violence.

on the other hand, professional, reserved runners get tapped for less dangerous, more lucrative jobs--the quiet ones, the ones no one is supposed to know about.

if you want your crew to be more professional and reserved, here is my suggestion: give them quiet jobs that stipulate a minimum of collateral damage. when the team goes in with guns blazing and grabs everything they can get their hands on, they simply won't get paid the rest of their fee. the johnson won't even show up or try to contact them--they won't be able to find him at all. and the next quiet job they get hired for, the johnson will pay them less.

i don't know if that will help the players understand. them, you'll probably have to actually talk to and explain.

[2bit]

After having been burned by crazy looting PC's in the past, I try to take that into account when designing opposition. If I want the PC's to face off against an emeny toting an assault cannon, but don't want them to have it when the battle's over, I'll design it so the cannon is unrecoverable, or useless, or stopping to loot would jeaporadize the mission.

I haven't really gotten the hang of discouraging excessive violence yet. Violence is a very effective tool in this game, and I think it would be a desirable trait in a shadowrunner. Sociopaths who worship god money are probably the most successful runners.

I mean, theyre soulless, but that doesn't really matter to a player whose first priority is getting the job done so he can get paid.

[Kagetenshi]

[Kyoto Kid]

...not too much issue with #1. Usually its weapons and street armour which if the team already has sufficient quality of their own gets sold. That basically covers a night or two at a club and bribes. The big thing is Foci. Even as a player of mundanes, foci ar nice because they usually net good :nuyen: (especially when the Johnson is a cheapskate & sends you on a highly deadly mission which should be worth a lot more).

#2, usually not, either as a player or GM. That gets you noticed by the Star (or other law enforcement, an gangs) as well in my campaigns.

#3, If the Johnson was being yanked around I would say, "That was fun, well, who has a deck of cards?" This also includes is magical abuse of the Johnson, e.g, pumping up Charisma temporarily or using other spells to the point Mr. or Mrs J wouldn't have a wage slave's chance in the Barrens at succeeding in a Negotiation test. I also carefully set up the initial meets to make sure the Johnson has at least a chance at countering the PCs attempt to barter up the price.

I have used the "keep it on the sly" method with varying degrees of success. I set up a formula for final Karma awards based on how close they follow the Johnson's instruction. If they leave high body counts and go blasting off guns, spells and generally pissing people off when discreetness was stressed, most likely the final award is lower. This really tends to hit the awakened types more since Karma is more valuable (particularly in SR4) than :nuyen:. Also I note such behavior in their overall reputation on the streets.

[mfb]

here's another possible option for driving home the consequences of #3:

at the start of the next session, open with, "it's been a while since your last job. for some reason, after you threatened that last Johnson, no other Johnson wants to deal with you. deduct three months' lifestyle from your cash. what's that? you don't have enough money? well, looks like it's time to talk to the mob about a loan!"

[SirBedevere]

Concerning the gang attack, I've always thought that there is a great dichotomy between the way gangers think and react, and the way shadowrunners do. Gangers go in for intimidation and threat display. That way most people will leave them alone and/or do what the gangers wish. IMO shadowrunners tend to react to immediate threats with rapid and devastating violence. Many have cranked up reflexes and if they perceve a personal threat eliminate it instantly.

If a ganger pulled a gun in a bar for intimidation purposes and waved it in the direction of a shadowrunner I'd expect the runner to geek the ganger without hesitation.

As far as killing all the gangers is concerned 'never leave a live enemy behind you' seems good policy. Otherwise the survivors might plot revenge. Looting the bodies? Well, cred is cred ya'know. Taking the organs might well drive the point home that it's better to leave these people alone. Depends what the group's relationship is to Tamanous/ghouls.

On an actual 'run, taking time with unecessessary diversions is not good biz. Killing without good reason is also bad biz.

[Skeptical Clown]

#1 is more of an annoyance than a problem. If they're getting too much money from looting, just dock the amount of money they get paid for jobs, or send them on missions where looting everything would actually cause them problems--nothing so direct as "Don't loot or I don't pay you," but rather "We don't want this to look too obvious..."

On the other hand, if they're stealing sensitive info, just stealing everything might make a certain amount of sense--it makes it look more like burglarly than targetted theft.

#2 is again, more a nuisance than a problem, but it could cause real complications. Gangs are mostly interested in throwing their weight around, and most aren't going to stick around if there's clearly someone tougher on the block. It shouldn't be necessary to track them all down. Engaging in running firefights through the city is going to eventually catch SOMEBODY's attention, and there's always going to be somebody out there with more firepower. Sometimes, it just takes someone getting killed or arrested to drive home the point though.

#3 is the only one I see as being a real problem. It's not one I ever dealt with--most of my players were so anal about appearing professional that they didn't even bargain effectively, or get as much information as they sometimes needed. To a certain extent, Johnsons are probably going to expect runners to be unprofessional, so they might be willing to take it to a point. Excessive rudeness or unreasonable demands are going to damage the resume though, and maybe they'll have to relocate.

Ultimately, the real issue seems to be that the players are bored or are using Seattle (or wherever you game) as their personal playground. You need to get on the same page as them and determine what everyone wants from the game. These things are only problems if they are derailing the stories.

[cetiah]

[Thane36425]

Lots of players tend to forget that actions have consequences. Being brutes will get them brute jobs and hassel from Lone Star.

Looting is sort of touchy, though I find it usually comes up mostly with beginning characters who are scrambling for cash. Looting gangers that cross you might get away with, but picking that R&D lab clean is really going to tick off the corp in question.

As characters get further one, especially if they have managed to purchase a lifestyle, then looting should be less of a concern. Payment from the runs should be enough to keep them happy, and their discipline at not looting or causing unnecessary damage would probably see them paid more than usual.

If this is a problem though, here is something I once did. The team was raiding a not so big firm to steal some R&D material. In the process, they stole a lot of other material. What they didn't know was that the firm was a subsidiary of Aztechnology and some of the extra material they stole was part of a compartmentalized, and thus very important and secret, program. They ended up in a world of shit and had to high tail it out of Seattle, with a bad rep for some time, being too hot for most Johnsons to bother with.

[Thain]

"When your run is ending. Some elses is just beginning."

[James McMurray]

[Bashfull]

I'm pleased to say my new campaign has some sensible runners. They pack gel rounds alongside the copperheads. They will probably buy squirts and tasers when they can afford them. Why? Because they have a conscience. That mook corp guard has a family to go home to. Also, the less damage you do to someone, the less pissed they're going to be. You stole their data. Damn, they're furious. You stole their data and blew up their research lab? Someone is going to get Medieval on you, omae.

My suggestions: if your team want brutality, give it to them. If they're going to be rude to Johnsons, don't have the Johnson walk out. Have them evicted by the bouncers, then. They kill guards and kick clerks? Have someone hunt one of them down and torture him to death, just because. As characters, they can't beat the whole system. You never run out of resources to throw at them. After all, one great dragon...

[Thane36425]

[Thane36425]

[Wounded Ronin]

Well, there's nothing wrong per se with exterminating the gang, if they've got the ammo and doing so doesn't endanger the mission. If they make a habit of it perhaps the other gangs will get spooked and form alliances against that particular runner team, which could be amusing. "You busily hack your way through about three rows of unaugmented light-pistol wielding gangers when you realize that you are completely surrounded by Halloweeners with grenade launchers."

That was kind of the comical thing about Deus Ex. Paul Denton was like, "Please sneak in and do the objective with a quiet minimum of bloodshed, not because it's actually more practical to do it that way, but because it's more ethical in the abstract. Um, even though you're putting your life on the line." If you consider it "bad" that the PCs go and exterminate the gang there probably should be a practical reason why doing so would be bad. If nothing else, maybe the ammo cost isn't worth it, if they were pumping APDS rounds into those leather jacket wearing gangers.


If they're rude to the Johnson, Kage called it right first, have the Johnson walk out. He's not going to pay lots of money so that he can risk his "deniable assets" bringing the house down on him due to boasting and inappropriate lack of discretion. Screw the story. Really. Me, I don't even have stories when I GM.


Lastly, going around and exterminating the opposition only works when you have the firepower to do so. Realistically, the corporate opposition should at least on some occasion have more resources to bring to bear on the PCs so that no matter how tough an individual PC is he'll still get crushed if he waits around for too long.

It's like being part of an elite recon squad. Yes, you're tough and motivated compared to the average mook on the other side. However, it would still be retarded for you to do anything but get in and get out since you'll still lose if you get sandwiched between several platoons.

So it's very simple. Let the dice fall where they may. If the PCs spend too much time grandstanding and killing every last security guard this gives the rest of the opposition time to set up snipers, send in air support (yes, chopper support, why not), send in 7 rating 6 air elementals, send in a citymaster filled with guys wearing hardened security armor, and so on.

Yeah, that's the solution to everything. Screw the story and let the dice fall where they may.

[cristomeyers]

If you're concerned about keeping the story (I would be, but I guess I'm wierd like that), here's a trick: The next time they piss of Mr. J, go ahead and have him walk out. Fast forward about a week, the runners hear through the grapevine that a run was pulled off against X megacorp and that corp is after blood. The clincher? Mr. J was so pissed, he hired another group to not only do the run, but frame the players for it as well.

It de-rails the story some, but at least this way you have something to build off of. Flexibility, friend, it's a GM's best attribute (a mean streak a mile wide doesn't hurt either :wink:)

[toturi]

I'd let the dice fall as they may.

If the runners are looting everything in sight, well, I hope they got high Strength because they'd need it to carry all that stuff. If they are only looting the high value(but light weight) items, then perhaps the loot is a little "hot" and apply the penalties accordingly when they fence it.

Excessively violent can work. But there will be consequences, both good and bad consequences. A rep for being brutal will work when Intimidating someone, but not so good when working on a discrete assignment(if you could land the job in the first place).

Disrespecting Johnsons are generally a bad idea. But if the person doing the disrespecting is better at Social skills than the Johnson is, then it sucks to be the Johnson. If the PC has a wider Social network than the Johnson and have better Social skills, he might just be able to ruin the Johnson's rep if the J walks when they are rude.

The reason that pissing off a Johnson being bad is that he should have more and deeper contacts than you and have better Social Skills as well. But if you are playing a Fixer/Face PC you just might be able to match or outdo the J!