 There are no ranged attacks in astral space right?, Just making sure |
 Feb 15 2007, 07:54 PM
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#1
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,424 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502  |
It mentions that you can use mana spells in the astral, but it also mentions that no ranged weapons work.
Somewhere in all that I assume the idea is that you have to be at unarmed combat range to attack something in the astral. This to prevent someone from flying high in the astral and exterminating all dual natured criters at their leisure. (also rendering dual natured classes, to be release in the sr4 companion near pointless as the first astral wage mage on a scene coud pop them off trivially.) |
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Feb 15 2007, 08:07 PM
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Yes, this is why we don't have guns in the game so that people with guns don't just pick off everyone without guns from the nearest rooftop. I'm fairly certain mana spells cast by a projecting mage will work on dual natured being at range, if it's a ranged mana spell. |
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Feb 15 2007, 08:16 PM
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
remember, all drain in the astral is physical. so even a low force mana spell is bad for you health ;)
are there rules for casting spells at extreme range in street magic? i know there was some in earlier magic books for sr... |
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Feb 15 2007, 08:22 PM
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#4
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Are you sure? I know that's true in previous editions, but I was under the impression that got dropped in 4th. |
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Feb 15 2007, 08:23 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Well on some level that makes sense what challenge are a lot of paracritters if the mage can easily fly above them in astral space and take them out. Even inside a building.
He could just stick his head through the ceiling and blast the dual natured critters from above or in the wilderness take out the hell hounds from in the sky. Enemies can still shot back at you from the roof top. Or at least go behind cover you can't reach from the roof anymore. You'd also have to know exactly where they are and get to the roof. Moving through astral space and poking your head through walls and ceiling is much easier. Dual Natured Critters should have some way to defend against mages who can easily fly above them. The team can just hang back. That feature should work as an advantage more then a disadvantage. |
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Feb 15 2007, 08:29 PM
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#6
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Do you mena this p.173 Make Spellcasting Test "Casting a spell requires a Complex Action. Th e Spellcaster rolls Spellcasting + Magic, modifi ed by foci, totem bonuses, bound spirits, and/or Visibility modifi ers." or the actual penalties from the visibility tables? |
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Feb 15 2007, 08:37 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
That trick will work for a while, but the corps and savvy security forces would be prepared for that. Mundane security could easily see their dual-natured critters being attacked or just going crazy and know that there is an intruder. Vector in an astral mage with spirits in tow, and that high flying or wall peeking mage gets attacked on equal footing. Critters have it harder. An astral mage could fly high and pick off dual natured critters without to much trouble, much like a sniper on the rooftops or the doorgunner in a helicopter could do. However, if you think this is being abused, put the target underground. My mage Bounty Hunters would often do this as back up for the physical team. Sewers are good for that because they are ready made and can be maze-like. Since it is surrounded by earth, the mage can't just pop out anytime they like. Also, whatever they are hunting probably knows the layout very well and could ambush them. For example: I was GMing for a team that was tracking a Ghoul mage that lead a nasty crew of other ghouls and had association with Tanamous. His den was in the sewers and they really knew the layout. Now, I really didn't like the team's mage player because he was a real ass. So, he went in astrally thinking he was Barney Badass. He didn't think that once he was in there that it was like being in a maze with limited movement. Well, the ghouls moved to trap him in a tunnel. His option to get out was through manhole up above. He tried that only to find it warded. Caught between the ward and ghouls climbing up after him, lead by the astrally projecting Ghoul mage, he was in a nasty fix. He was really freaking out, so I let him breech the ward and escape, though the Ghoul mage did track him back to the team's base (he didn't try to evade pursuit), but that's another part of the story. |
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Feb 15 2007, 09:24 PM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
In answer to the original query:
Ranged attacks do exist in astral space, but are rare. Specifically, there are no ranged weapons. However, attacks such as the Distance Strike adept power will function against astral targets for an astrally perceiving adept or mystic adept. The only type of spell that requires a ranged attack are indirect Combat spells, and indirect spells are always physical and cannot be cast on the astral. All of the spirit or critter powers that require a ranged attack, like Elemental Attack, are also physical and cannot be used on the astral. Now, let us not get into the Ghoul tossing topic. Again. |
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Feb 15 2007, 10:03 PM
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#9
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The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
No guns, bows etc for Astral space. That means all Astral combat happens at melee ranges (a few meters based on reach). Mana spells would still work by LOS. As far as distance modifiers for flying high and raining manaballs down on the competition, I'd eyeball it as equivalent to a sporting rifle without scope. Note: This isn't meant to contradict AH. |
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Feb 15 2007, 10:06 PM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,424 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
@ancient history: If mana spells work in the astral then ranged attacks in the astral are not rare, not even close.
@Thane. Of topic but I'm not so sure sewers have the "earth" effects most of the time. This is because usually they are just underneath streets and the like. Actually now I'm curious. Is there anything on how molested the earth can be and still have it's effect. For example lets say there is a hidden bunker in someones backyard with a trapdoor covered with some loam and a couple inches of dirt. Is it astrally sealed as well as being hard to spot physically? Would it only be sealed after a bit of time while that chunk of earth re-merges with the whole? But on ranged mana spells it sounds like people think with RAW they are ranged as normal. I don't so much want to muck around with changing rules but ranged spells in the astral seem really different from guns and the like simply because there isn't any way to counter them barring being capable of ranged attacks yourself or at least projecting. And it does seem like it's just GMs being softies if any character playing a dual natured race doesn't get whacked rapidly as astral mages are often first responders. |
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Feb 15 2007, 10:13 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
A ranged attack in this context is one that requires a ranged attack test. |
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Feb 15 2007, 10:19 PM
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#12
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
no, it was some special modifiers that was a option for when a mage wanted to cast a spell at someone at extreme distances... |
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Feb 15 2007, 10:21 PM
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#13
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, now that you got me to investigate i cant find anything about it either in the astral chapter or the sorcery chapter... sadly i do not have street magic handy, but this is a very major change from older versions imo... |
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Feb 15 2007, 10:25 PM
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#14
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Really, how is this different from one person having a gun going against someone that doesn't have one? Consider a rigger operating a drone mounted LMG from miles away against an unarmed metahuman target. Think about the BP cost to have this versus the BP cost to have magic. |
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Feb 15 2007, 10:26 PM
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#15
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
There are few ranged attack tests, but there are attacks that are effective over range in astral space.
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Feb 15 2007, 10:35 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
That's a good question. If a sewer were tunneled throught the ground rather than dug out from the surface, then the earth would be intact. This would also apply to most sections of subways system since many of them are mined rather than dug down from the surface, at least most parts of them. As for dug areas, I haven't seen anything about that. Over time, that earth might return to "normal" as far its astral presence is concerned, though how long that might take is another matter. It could also be possible that an earth elemental coudl be commanded to restore the earth to its "normal" state too, though this would be rare since most times it wouldn't be worth the expense. The bunker example probably would not count as normal earth. However, if they planted a thick crop of grass on top of it, the grass would be a barrier because it is a living thing, just like the canon "house covered with ivy." The entrance would still be wide open though. I've always considered ranged spells possible on the Astral. The limiting factor was that the drain was physical. This made touch range spells more desirable. However, in SR4, it looks like drain is handled as per the physical world. Still, touch spells are easier on the drain and specialist spells like Slay Spirit are also an advantage. Still, sniping at a corporation's spirit guards from a distance still leaves a signature, and you can still be chased by the other spirits and astral mages. |
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Feb 15 2007, 10:58 PM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,424 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
@thane. Wait I thought in SR4 astral forms could pass through things like mundane ivy. Only those special Ivy's would block stuff. I kinda like the earth elemental idea as people doing something like that would likely use one meaning I wouldn't have to figure out how long it takes to seal.
The "touch spells have lower drain" argument doesn't hold much water with me. The drain codes for mana bolt are pretty low to start with. @direradient. The drone with an LMG is a similar effect, but on a different order of magnetude. A drone can't be on the scene in seconds. It can't fly through a couple walls and bag someone in the foyer and armored glass/visibility modifiers and the ability to go for cover mitigate it. Also anyone can have a sniper rifle or something to counter it if need be. But in this case the opposing mage can come on the scene and unless the team has a mage on astral oversight watching the dual character they're screwed. I suppose a dedicated spirit might help. And even with the mage or spirit they probably aren't going to be able to react fast enough to keep the dual character from getting popped. The opposing mage would zip in at some weird angle, drop a ranged spell, and than fastmove for the hills. But maybe that's just the way it is. Dual natured characters in shadowrunnish circumstances are either mages or canaries (you know an astral mage is around because they're dead). |
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Feb 15 2007, 11:49 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
I'm not sure about SR4, but in previous additions that worked. Regular living plants could not be passed through. The lower drain only meant that you would take less damage casting spells on the astral. In previous editions, one could win an astral battle but still be bloodied from casting your own spells. |
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Feb 16 2007, 12:19 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I really don't think that insta-death spells cast from the astral plane at dual natured critters (including those with sapience, like ghouls) are a serious problem. The drain when casting while astrally projecting is Physical, as has been mentioned before. So the mage is reaonably likely to either geek or severely injure himself casting a spell powerful enough to kill without relying on a lucky die roll (for example, IIRC ghouls get a boost to willpower, making them slightly harder to geek with mana spells).
The dual natured creature is constantly astrally perceiving anyway, so can easily take cover against a prolonged attack. I don't see this as any more gamebreaking than the above mentioned drone being used to attack defenseless critters. As for astral passage being restricted by living material, I think that only counts if the plant is awakened. It does still have an aura though, so will restrict LoS. In the example of the bunker, you'd be lucky to spot it was there, but once you did you could push through the inch or two of soil reasonably easily. If you want to know how long it takes before it can be considered part of Gaia; you're the GM. Make an executive decision. |
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Feb 16 2007, 12:44 AM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
@ornot: I think you missed this about SR4...
This was something that cought me at first as well. I've said it many a time, and I'll say it many more, but forgetting SR3- is the hardest part of playing SR4. I think this is probably offset by the fact that the astral/physical barrier is made stronger in SR4. There is no grounding, no spells can cross from astral into physical, so the necessity for all astral drain to be physical is perhaps not as strong as it was in SR2 when grounding existed. Perhaps SR3 carried over Physical astral drain for flavor . . . |
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Feb 16 2007, 01:00 AM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
Hmmm... It does indeed seem to have been dropped. I can't find any mention of it in any logical place. I could've sworn it was there.... I guess I'm just remembering it from SR3.
Still, my point stands, as to cast a very powerful spell (one hit kill) a mage would in all likelyhood have to overcast. |
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Feb 16 2007, 02:30 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Force 7 and force 9 manabolts are pretty easy to resist and will generally drop the target every time. If you are really concerned about the drain, hit them with a force 9 stun bolt, then just drop down and kick them to death (they are dual natured, even when unconscious).
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Feb 16 2007, 02:33 AM
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#23
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The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
RE: Physical vs Stun Drain from casting
This is obviously a huge departure from previous editions. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but I am going to have to try it out for awhile before I decide whether or not to house-rule back the Astral=physical bias.
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Feb 16 2007, 04:14 AM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I've often wondered about a spear gun, with the bolt attached by a cord to the shooters wrist. . . |
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Feb 16 2007, 04:58 AM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
In SR4 drain is not necessarily physical in astral space.
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