 Resisting Direct Combat Spells, Once or Twice? |
 Mar 18 2007, 12:21 PM
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#1
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Great, I'm a Dragon...  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698  |
When Maggie the Mage throws a Manabolt on Sam the Sammie, how often can he roll Willpower?
a) Once to resist the spell and get some hits to lower the net hits Maggie got at casting the spell b) Twice: first Willpower to resist the spell and a second time with Body to soak the damage? c) Other number |
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Mar 18 2007, 12:38 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
The answer is : A
You only get one chance to resist a spell. If you get more hits than the mage, then you take no damage, if not you getting hurt. There are a few spells that don't exactly follow that rule, but say so explicitly in the spell description. |
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Mar 18 2007, 03:35 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I'm not sure they'd say so in the description. They would just be labeled indirect combat spells. |
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Mar 18 2007, 05:52 PM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 17-February 07 Member No.: 11,022 |
BBB p 196
Implying that you do make a damage resistance test. As always this is willpower vs stun damage or body vs physical damage (not willpower + body) So in the original case that is one willpower role to resist a mana spell and body to resist physical damage. had it been a powerbolt it would be body to resist a physical spell and body to resist physical damage. |
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Mar 18 2007, 07:04 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I think you have a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the rules pestulens.
This is not at all how it works. The type of damage does not enter into it, the type of spell matters. Willpower vs. Mana based effects Body vs. Physical efects. So you resist manabolt with willpower and powerbolt with body, though both do physical damage. See p 175 on how to determine spell effects. Then note how indirect combat spells give an alternate resolution for the success test. |
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Mar 18 2007, 07:04 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The initial test is your resistance test. This is very clearly stated in the book (which walks through the entire spellcasting process), and has been hashed out on the boards before.
It's hardly unbalancing, either. Successes (not net successes) are capped at spell Force, and are then reduced by the target's resistance roll. If the mage doesn't get at least one net hit, the spell has no affect whatsoever. |
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Mar 18 2007, 09:15 PM
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#7
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
True, but the caster usually has a larger dicepool to get hits: Spellcasting + Magic versus either Willpower or Body - I haven't encountered anyone using Counterspelling regularly. So I think it's unbalanced towards the caster.
Casting a Force 5 Manabolt and getting 5 successes makes up for an instant kill. Joe Average can resist with Willpower 3. Great. If he makes 3 hits, he's not dead, just severely wounded. |
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Mar 18 2007, 09:40 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 17-February 07 Member No.: 11,022 |
I don't see where it seas you don't make a damage resistance test like you would from any other form of damage. however It dose seam to treat the resistance test for indirect spells as somewat unick so I accept your interpretation as likely. This dose make direct spells more powerful than I had previously believed but with indirects now affecting people you can't see I geas that isn't really unbalancing. The only thing I would worry about as a balance ishue is firearms and there you have drain vs damage resistance as a tradeoff
I was talking about the damage resistance test witch I now accept you don't get, not the spell resistance test for witch you are coerect. |
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Mar 18 2007, 09:51 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 17-February 07 Member No.: 11,022 |
5 hits is pretty impressive, thats 15 dice on average. I assume you didn't spend edge on your "Geek Joe average" test. |
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Mar 18 2007, 10:23 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 1-March 06 From: NYC Member No.: 8,325 |
Ok, just for clarification, here’s a hypothetical scenario of a mage casting a direct combat spell based on how I understand it from this thread. Tell me if I’m wrong.
I’ll define the players first: Mage with Magic 6 and Spellcasting 5; and the Target, with Willpower 3 and no Counterspelling. Mage decides to cast Manabolt at force 6. He rolls Magic + Spellcasting. Total hits are limited by the force of the spell, in this case 6. Because the spell in question is a mana spell, Target resists with Willpower. If the Mage’s Magic + Spellcasting check is higher than the Target’s Willpower check, the net hits are added to the base DV (6) and the target takes that amount of damage. No additional damage resist check. If the Target gets equal or more hits than the mage (unlikely in this scenario), then the spell is resisted and the target takes no damage at all. How about this one: Same players as before, only this time the mage casts an indirect spell (Clout) and the target has reaction 4, Body 4, and an armored jacket. Mage casts at force 6 and rolls Magic + Spellcasting. Once again, the mage cannot get more than 6 hits. This time the target first rolls Reaction. If the Target gets equal or more hits than the mage, he dodges the spell and takes no damage. If, however, the mage gets more hits than the target, then the net hits are added to the base damage. Now the target gets what is essentially another resistance test. Body + half impact armor vs the modified damage value. Hits on this test reduce the damage taken. If both of these scenerios are correct, then the target of a direct combat spell gets only one chance to resist, while the target of an indirect spell gets two. Which begs the question: why would a mage ever use indirect combat spells? |
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Mar 18 2007, 10:35 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
because you can hit targets you can't see
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Mar 18 2007, 10:59 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 1-March 06 From: NYC Member No.: 8,325 |
Really, where does it say that? Also, there's the added elemental effects of most indirect spells, so I guess that's something too. |
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Mar 18 2007, 11:02 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
Thats in the basics of direct spells, somewhere at the start of the magic chapter methinks (haven't looked at book in awhile, heh).
Basic fact that you have to be able to somehow perceive your target with genuine LOS in order to use direct magi on them. Now in cases of darkness, using your awakened sight will qualfity because the concept of darkness doesn't exist there (and people glow like fireflies, etc). |
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Mar 18 2007, 11:08 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 1-March 06 From: NYC Member No.: 8,325 |
I know you have to see your target to cast a spell. What I'm asking is; where does it say you don't have to see your target to cast an indirect spell? |
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Mar 18 2007, 11:14 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
Ohh, that one. Sorry, read direct, not indirect.
That's under the part on projectile spells, where you simply create a medium and fling it in a direction. Since you don't need to see to create the medium, and flinging it doesn't involve looking in the direction of flinging, you don't need to see what you're flinging it at. To put it more plainly: the spell only makes the hurling ball of fire, bolt of lightning, sludge of a 100 dragons bowels, etc. It does not target your 'target'. |
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Mar 18 2007, 11:20 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
FAQ 1.1
Haven't bothered to find the errata quote. |
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Mar 18 2007, 11:24 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 1-March 06 From: NYC Member No.: 8,325 |
ahhh, ok. That makes sense. No wonder I couldn't find it in the BBB. Thanks for the help.
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Mar 18 2007, 11:26 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
No problem
You might want to keep the FAQ and latest errata handy, they tend to make life so much easier. |
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Mar 19 2007, 12:13 AM
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#19
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Forget about Edge, yes. But both could have used it and it's a too random factor to throw it into the mix too. |
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Mar 19 2007, 12:45 AM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I restate that you have a fundamental misconception about the rules. There is no general condition that stun damage is resisted by willpower and physical damage is resisted by body. Unless otherwise noted all damage physical or stun is resisted with body. See p 153 for clarification, the section headed Damage Resistance Tests.
Not really, 5 or more hits will occur with a mere 11 dice 28.9% of the time. |
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Mar 19 2007, 12:54 AM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
1) They often have elemental effects in addition to doing damage. 2) Their area of affect can hit targets that the mage cannot get line of sight on. 3) They have to be staged completely down - a target who has one net success more than the mage after his final Body test will still take 4 points of damage from a Force: 5 spell. They are not as generally useful as direct combat spells, but it is still a good idea to have at least one indirect combat spell handy for rare occasions where it is the better choice. |
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Mar 19 2007, 01:25 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 9-December 06 From: the Maaatlock-Expressway! Member No.: 10,326 |
Also, a fireball is just SO MUCH cooler than a plain manabolt.
Of course, the drain is a real hooker, which has made the damn thing so unattractive ever since day (or edition) 1. Pity. |
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Mar 19 2007, 02:01 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
Well if we threw around fireballs all day, we'd go play DnD. ;)
This at least makes mimicking 'movie magic' impractical, and thus avoids a fad. Now if you've prepared yourself with foci to offset issues like drain and such, that's another story. |
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Mar 19 2007, 04:42 AM
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#24
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Also something else about Indirect Combat Spells, the FAQ leaves it open to the possiblity of doing a Called-Shot with them, which in turn opens up all sorts of fun ideas...
However, before this turns into a "oh-my-god magic must be NERFED" thread there is something to remember, casting a spell is a Complex Action, and in the time that Jane Mage can fry a goon's brain with a Direct Combat Spell, possibly taking damage doing so, Joe Sammy can fire off two bursts with his Ares Alpha loaded with either APDS or Ex-Ex rounds depending on his target and unless he rolls a crit glitch there is no way that his attack can possibly do him bodily harm. |
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Mar 19 2007, 05:40 AM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
The real nasty kicker with magic in forth edition is the changes they made when it came to the spells FORCE.
No longer does the mage have to cast at a specific force, limit is now X2 force and physical drain - THAT is what makes it somewhat overpowered. Mage A throws a stunbolt at F8 with his magic of 4 against Runner B. Mage A now have X2 his normal spells force against the runners measly willpower 4... THAT part ticks me off the most. How often do you actually have characters outside of mages with willpower above 3-4? Technically speaking they have upped mages power from magic 6 to 12 at the high end and not given anything for the defender. ok, if most runners/enemies had a magic of 2-3 and threw spells in that force range it would be no problem but mostly it is 4-8 range in power. |
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